ובקצרכם, ובארצכם, ובארצכם; קדשים

[Avram Herzog]

Hi All,

A. In the subject line I included three words (ובקצרכם, ובארצכם, ובשכבך) that have a meteg under the vav. The first two are in Emor, the last is obviously in Shema. Three questions:

1. Are there other examples? 

2. Why the meteg in these cases specifically? Or, what is the common denominator of these words that they have this oddity of a meteg?

3. For those of us that pronounce the ensuing shva as nach, in the three cases here does it change to a sh'va na? Putting it another way, the weekly תורת הקורא which I receive (email) maintains that the shva remains a nach. Are there dissenting recorded opinions here? I'm not referring to a gut feeling or assumption. And if it remains a nach, then that strengthens question #2; IOW, if the meteg doesn't change anything, why is it there?

B. קדשים is sometimes spelled with a chataf kamatz (under the ק) and sometimes with a kamatz. The pattern seems to be that the chataf kamatz follows a hei hay'diah (ex. בקדשים). Two questions:

1. Why does the hei hay'diah make a difference?

2. In the cases of non-chataf, is it a kamatz katan or rachav? Here in Eretz Yisrael I hear both (from expert ba'alei k'riah). Is it a machloket? Again, I'm asking only for actual recorded mekorot here, not just logic. (I assume the same applies to שרשים).

KT,

Avi Herzog

[mart...@aol.com]

reluctant to respond to such anerudite group but refer to article written in 2009 by gil student. article not meant to be scholarly but touches on some of your question, though it is somewhat anecdotal. www.ou.org/blog/saying_shema_better/

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[Avram Herzog]

Thank you, Marty. 

Avi H

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[S. Goldstein]

In such cases, I believe that one can ostensibly rely on the concept of L'Tiferes HaK'riah and read this word as a Sh'va Na. For details of the Meteg Kaveid and Kal, see attached. Sources provided.

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[Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon]

Where is that attachment from?

On May 26, 2022, at 6:39 PM, S. Goldstein <reb...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Avram Herzog]

Thank you!

Avi H

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[S. Goldstein]

The attached file was from a sefer that I hope to publish soon. IY"H

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[Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon]

I’m not sure mother and father are the best metaphors there 

On May 30, 2022, at 2:13 PM, S. Goldstein <reb...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Avram Herzog]

Dear Shmuel,

I just read your excerpt from your upcoming sefer. I find it very impressive.

Please let the group know when it is published and how it is available.

Two questions:

At one point you write the word תנועה with a dageish in the nun (twice, actually, back to back). Am I assuming correctly that this is erroneous?

But more to our discussion, what leads you to assume this meteg is for tiferet hak'riah?

Which leads me to another question: What exactly is intended by l'tiferet hak'riah? Minchat Shai uses the term re. the sh'va of מקדש in Shirat Hayam. But given our ashkenazi trop, or even middle-eastern varieties (I hear both Temani and Moroccan right here in my neighborhood in Givat Ze'ev), how does/should it manifest itself? I once posed this question to a highly-regarded trop expert (not on this listserv), and he told me he has no idea what it actually means.

Looking forward to hearing more,

Avi H

Avi H

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