RE: Two Trope on one word - 4 rules

[rjhe...@juno.com]

Hi
Just wanted to clarify

RULE 1
There cant be two mafsikim on one word in two different places (Because then there would be two accents)

RULE 1a
The two mafsikim TELISHAH GERSHAYIM: They are on the same word and same syllable (That is ok) Jeremy suggested because there was a doubt in the MESORAH. Could be. I suggest that there is an INTRINSIC doubt in the LEINING RULES - the rules require both a telishah and gershayim so both are put on.

RULE 1b
RE: Kadmah Koton and Tipchah Siluq (Which I explained is Maillah...Mark suggested Kadmoh Koton might be maillah...is there a source (Also it would be appreciated when you cite somebody to use the angles). Mark suggested that "this tipchah is a meshareth" NOT QUITE:

I think the proper perspective is that the COMBO (Kadmah koton) or the COMBO (Tipchah Siluq) forms a ONE PAUSAL TROPE whose notation has TWO connected components There are precedents for this (e.g. the Oleh Veyored in Tehillim which appears as a MAHPACH above the word and mayrchah under the wrod...this is ONE TROPE whose notation has two signs).

RULE 2:
A word can have MESHARETH and MAFSIK. I disagree with Sammy. I sing Ve A Hav Ta precisely the way it is written Ve-Ah(Munach) Hav Ta (Zakef) There is no problem with this. Because the munach is a meshareth anyway there is no danger of double accents But you are SUPPOSE to have a secondary accent.

Hope this clarifies

Russell

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[rabbiri...@gmail.com]

Russell

«I think the proper perspective is that the COMBO (Kadmah koton) or the COMBO (Tipchah Siluq) forms a ONE PAUSAL TROPE whose notation has TWO connected components There are precedents for this (e.g. the Oleh Veyored in Tehillim which appears as a MAHPACH above the word and mayrchah under the word...this is ONE TROPE whose notation has two signs).»

Indeed "taamei emet" has several notes that have compound components, while being only one note.
One common note looks like a geiresh-r'via combo, but it's a single note

KT
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

[MG]

> RULE 1b
> RE: Kadmah Koton and Tipchah Siluq (Which I explained is Maillah...Mark suggested Kadmoh Koton might be maillah...is there a source (Also it would be appreciated when you cite somebody to use the angles). Mark suggested that "this tipchah is a meshareth" NOT QUITE:
> I think the proper perspective is that the COMBO (Kadmah koton) or the COMBO (Tipchah Siluq) forms a ONE PAUSAL TROPE whose notation has TWO connected components There are precedents for this (e.g. the Oleh Veyored in Tehillim which appears as a MAHPACH above the word and mayrchah under the wrod...this is ONE TROPE whose notation has two signs).

First of all, nowhere did I suggest that the kadmoh-katan (metigah) is
a m'eye-lah. I said that the kadmah-katan (metigah) is a zakef
gadol. What I DID call a m'eye-lah, besides the Tipcha-Siluq or
Tipcha-Etnachta combos (your terms), is the mercha (with no p'sik
following it) that comes in between a kadma and a zarka, such as:
"וַיָּבֹא יַעֲקֹב מִן-הַשָּׂדֶה בָּעֶרֶב" in Bereishis 30:16. Happy
to provide the source for that.

Your perspective of the two symbols being one ta'am is correct for the
kadmoh-katan (mesigah) but NOT for the M'eye-lah.
First of all, let's stop calling it a tipcha or a tipcha-siluk combo.
It isn't a tipcha. Yes, it's shaped like a tipcha. And a kadma is
shaped like a pashta, but we all agree that they are different
ta'amim. This is not a tipcha.
Now: It is abundantly clear from the literature that the m'eye-lah is
a _mesharet_ that resides on the same word (or two words with a makaf)
as an esnachta or a sof-pasuk. Those who categorize the ta'amim and
list the Mafsikim vs. Meshartim clearly list the m'eye-lah as a
mesharet, NOT as a mafsik (the GR"A among many others; sources readily
available). According to you, that the combo is simply a mafsik that
just has two notations, it should be listed as a mafsik. The Mesorah
Gedolah that I linked to earlier (now found in the useful links page)
very clearly labels the m'eye-lah a mesharet. I stand very firmly on
what I previously said, unless you can point me to a source for your
idea.

[cantor...@aol.com]

Shalom,

Please allow me to introduce myself, as a 

newcomer to this group.

I am Hazzan Neil Schwartz, JTS '80.  For 

many years I taught leining at workshops for 

Jewish educators (CAJE), and several times

for lay leaders at the IMUN Program of USCJ.

I now teach Cantillation online for Hebrew

College.  This group was mentioned to me 

as a "place where high-level discussions on

details of Cantillation" regularly take place.

A few questions:  

1.  Is it possible to find out who the members 

    of this group are?  I am getting a sense by

    watching the discussions, but is there a list?

2.  Which authorities are accepted by members 

    of this group when there are disagreements?

    Is "Chanting the Hebrew Bible" by Dr. Joshua

    Jacobson (2002) accepted as one authority?

3.  Is there a "moderator" for this list-serve, or

    do discussions on a given topic continue as

    long as individuals have something to say?

4.  When expressed opinions are misinterpreted,

    and feelings get hurt, how is that handled here?

5.  Is a newcomer welcome to express opinions

    on the various topics as they are discussed?

Looking forward to hearing (actually, to seeing)

some answers for these five questions, before

I express any opinions on a current topic. 

Todah Rabbah v'Shalom,

Neil S.

[AMK Judaica]

beruckhim ha-ba'im
 
1) i assume the moderator has a list, but i would oppose circulating such a list for various reasons, not the least of which is that some people only read and their privacy should be protected.
 
2) we all have our preferred sources both in terms of mikra texts and later "authorities." hang out here and you'll get a feel for who each active members prefers. popular names that people get territorial about are minhat shai, heidenheim, r. breuer, etc. as well as (for reasons i fail to understand) koren and simanim. but this is not a bet din that arrives at a final decision and there is no universally-accepted authority that we defer to at the end of a discussion.
 
for whatever reason, jacobson's book get's almost no playtime here. (i am personally not really familiar with it and perhaps your first post can be to tell us why it might be important for us.)
 
3) moderation is for basic administrative purposes. otherwise it's a free-for-all.

4) it's like any other jewish organization, i.e., the agrieved party starts a schismatic leining group. just kidding. we are adults. we try to be respectful (although tone is sometimes misconstrued in correspondence). otherwise we take the punches and move on.
 
5) no. you must first undergo a rigorous vetting and hazing process. just kidding. looking forward to hearing from you.
 
kol tuv,
ari kinsberg
http://agmk.blogspot.com
 

---

To: lei...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [leining] request a list of Accepted Authorities
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 11:06:47 -0400
From: cantor...@aol.com
CC: cantor...@aol.com

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[Shields, Meyer (Baltimore)]

Another newbie chiming in:

Is the tikun simanim not highly regarded, and is there an explanation available anywhere?
Meyer Shields, FCAS
Principal, Equity Research
Stifel, Nicolaus and Company, Incorporated
One South Street, 16th Floor
Baltimore, MD 21202
(V) 443 224 1331
(F) 443 224 1392
(M) 443 610 9477
mshi...@stifel.com

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From: lei...@googlegroups.com
To: lei...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wed Jun 09 10:40:26 2010
Subject: RE: [leining] request a list of Accepted Authorities

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Cantor Neil
cantor...@aol.com

«Shalom,»
Shalom and Baruch habba


«Please allow me to introduce myself,..
1.  Is it possible to find out who the members     of this group are?  I am getting a sense by    watching the discussions, but is there a list?»

My bio is a bit bulky. Briefly
I'm a YU musmach who trained a bit @ Belz and privately

I spent about 20 years with a "Yekke" Q'hilah [kehillo]

I now reside in Teaneck and lein sporadically.

«2.  Which authorities are accepted by members     of this group when there are disagreements?»

I'm not aware of an "approved list" simple honesty and etiquette would require citing sources such as

Mordechai Breuer
Or
My bar mitzvah teacher
Or
My congregation's minhag
Or
Belz school taught XYZ
Or
My zeidie taught me
Or even
"Based upon my analysis"

IOW so long as one is honest with the sources, that seems fine as far as I can tell [AFAICT]

We all try to be respectful and we seem to be able to be able to disagree quite respectfully.

I've leined for decades and I'm here to learn the finer points and greater depth.

I'm not an expert in M'sorah, so I try to contribute here a bit about "minhag" insted - which is a hobby of mine.

Shalom

[AMK Judaica]

(speaking for myself only)
 
simanim contains many important tools that make it is very useful as a practical tikkun for the baal kore (it's the one i personally use regularly). i also think that he has made a big contribution toward spreading concern for proper leining.
this however does not mean that simanim is a text should be relied on for accuracy or cited to prove a point.
 
kol tuv,
ari kinsberg
 

---

Subject: Re: [leining] request a list of Accepted Authorities
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 10:48:19 -0500
From: mshi...@stifel.com
To: lei...@googlegroups.com

********************************************************************************

Member NYSE & SIPC

314-342-2000

The New Busy is not the old busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. Get started.

[Shields, Meyer (Baltimore)]

Ari - thanks for your thoughts. What I'm hoping to understand is why (or how) the simanim's text is less reliable. (I'm not suggesting you're wrong.)

________________________________

Another newbie chiming in:

________________________________

http://agmk.blogspot.com <http://agmk.blogspot.com/>

________________________________

Shalom,

A few questions:

Todah Rabbah v'Shalom,

Neil S.

________________________________

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[Chaim Spielman]

I believe that simanim is an excellent tikkun. For the person who would like to stress daggesh chazak, differentiate between a shva na and nach following minchas shai, be reminded not to swollow heh and eiyins and pronounce words that have a dechik and assi merachik correctly, this is a great tool.
I recommend it. It should not be used for establishing how words should be spelled in a Torah, tefillin, or mezuzah.

Sent from my iPhone

(speaking for myself only)

kol tuv,
ari kinsberg

________________________________

Another newbie chiming in:

________________________________

beruckhim ha-ba'im

________________________________

Shalom,

A few questions:

Todah Rabbah v'Shalom,

Neil S.

________________________________

********************************************************************************

Member NYSE & SIPC

314-342-2000

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________________________________

<winmail.dat>

[Chaim Spielman]

But I see that I didn't answer your question:

Please note that in addition to the Tikkun Simanim I have the Tanach Simanim. Unlike the Tikkun, the tanach attempts to follow Keter and where not available, follow Leningrad. Personally, when the Tikkun does not agree with my Simanim tanach I look at my Keter Tanach which follows Rabbi Mordechai Breuer Z"L, who (in my humble opinion) was the greatest expert on the Mesorah in the last several hundred years, and who has seen the writings of all who have proceeded him.

The following is a good source: http://www.mechon-mamre.org/index.htm

regards,

[MG]

Simanim does not follow the Minchas Shai in all places, i.e. ויתילדו
in Bamidmar 1:18. They have a shva na under the lamed in my edition,
the Minchas Shai is clear in Ma'amar Hamaarich that it is nach.

It is an awesome tikkun nonetheless, and is responsible for many
people laining more correctly whether they know it or not. Yes, it
doesn't follow Breuer and that leads to different pronounciation and
different trup in a number of places. I use the tikkun but always
look at Breuer as well. However, we're being "laining snobs" if we
don't admit it is the best Tikkun on the market for the average koreh
today. All we are saying is that it isn't to be relied upon as a
source.

On Jun 9, 2:18 pm, Chaim Spielman <chaimspiel...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I believe that simanim is an excellent tikkun. For the person who would like to stress daggesh chazak, differentiate between a shva na and nach following minchas shai, be reminded not to swollow heh and eiyins and pronounce words that have a dechik and assi merachik correctly, this is a great tool.
> I recommend it.  It should not be used for establishing how words should be spelled in a Torah, tefillin, or mezuzah.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>

> On Jun 9, 2010, at 12:29 PM, "Shields, Meyer (Baltimore)" <mshie...@stifel.com> wrote:
>
> Ari - thanks for your thoughts.  What I'm hoping to understand is why (or how) the simanim's text is less reliable.  (I'm not suggesting you're wrong.)
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: lei...@googlegroups.com on behalf of AMK Judaica
> Sent: Wed 09/06/2010 11:00 AM
> To: lei...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: RE: [leining] request a list of Accepted Authorities
>
> (speaking for myself only)
>
> simanim contains many important tools that make it is very useful as a practical tikkun for the baal kore (it's the one i personally use regularly). i also think that he has made a big contribution toward spreading concern for proper leining.
> this however does not mean that simanim is a text should be relied on for accuracy or cited to prove a point.
>
> kol tuv,
> ari kinsberg
>
> ________________________________
>
> Subject: Re: [leining] request a list of Accepted Authorities
> Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 10:48:19 -0500

> From: mshie...@stifel.com

> To: lei...@googlegroups.com
>
> Another newbie chiming in:
>
> Is the tikun simanim not highly regarded, and is there an explanation available anywhere?
> Meyer Shields, FCAS
> Principal, Equity Research
> Stifel, Nicolaus and Company, Incorporated
> One South Street, 16th Floor
> Baltimore, MD 21202
> (V) 443 224 1331
> (F) 443 224 1392
> (M) 443 610 9477

> mshie...@stifel.com

>
> ________________________________
>
> From: lei...@googlegroups.com
> To: lei...@googlegroups.com
> Sent: Wed Jun 09 10:40:26 2010
> Subject: RE: [leining] request a list of Accepted Authorities
>
> beruckhim ha-ba'im
>
> 1) i assume the moderator has a list, but i would oppose circulating such a list for various reasons, not the least of which is that some people only read and their privacy should be protected.
>
> 2) we all have our preferred sources both in terms of mikra texts and later "authorities." hang out here and you'll get a feel for who each active members prefers. popular names that people get territorial about are minhat shai, heidenheim, r. breuer, etc. as well as (for reasons i fail to understand) koren and simanim. but this is not a bet din that arrives at a final decision and there is no universally-accepted authority that we defer to at the end of a discussion.
>
> for whatever reason, jacobson's book get's almost no playtime here. (i am personally not really familiar with it and perhaps your first post can be to tell us why it might be important for us.)
>
> 3) moderation is for basic administrative purposes. otherwise it's a free-for-all.
>
> 4) it's like any other jewish organization, i.e., the agrieved party starts a schismatic leining group. just kidding. we are adults. we try to be respectful (although tone is sometimes misconstrued in correspondence). otherwise we take the punches and move on.
>
> 5) no. you must first undergo a rigorous vetting and hazing process. just kidding. looking forward to hearing from you.
>
> kol tuv,

> ari kinsberghttp://agmk.blogspot.com<http://agmk.blogspot.com/>

>
> ________________________________
>
> To: lei...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: [leining] request a list of Accepted Authorities
> Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 11:06:47 -0400

> From: cantornei...@aol.com
> CC: cantornei...@aol.com

> For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/leining?hl=en.
>
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> <winmail.dat>- Hide quoted text -
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> - Show quoted text -

[rabbiri...@gmail.com]

markgi...@yahoo.com
«It is an awesome tikkun nonetheless, and is responsible for many people laining more correctly whether they know it or not. Yes, it doesn't follow Breuer and that leads to different pronounciation and

different trup in a number of places. I use the tikkun but always look at Breuer as well. However, we're being "laining snobs" if we
don't admit it is the best Tikkun on the market for the average koreh

today.»

It may be THE best Tikkun but the page is "too busy" for me [and in general that's unusual for me to say that]

«Simanim does not follow the Minchas Shai in all places, i.e. ויתילדו

in Bamidmar 1:18. They have a shva na under the lamed in my edition,

the Minchas Shai is clear in Ma'amar Hamaarich that it is nach.»

My understanding was that simanim Tikkun does not always agree with simanim Tanach

As chaims...@yahoo.com wrote

«Unlike the Tikkun, the tanach attempts to follow Keter and where not available, follow Leningrad. Personally, when the Tikkun does not agree with my Simanim tanach I look at my Keter»

KT

[Michael Gutmann]

I have to agree with RRW. Call me old-fashioned (and you might be
right), but I find the simanim tikkun to be too busy and filled with
notes. I don't own one and I use a standard tikkun because the
simanim is just distracting for me. For consultation, though, I use a
Koren tanach. That's just how I was taught, no other reason.

-Michael-

On Jun 9, 2:50 pm, rabbirichwol...@gmail.com wrote:
> markginsb...@yahoo.com

> «It is an awesome tikkun nonetheless, and is responsible for many people laining more correctly whether they know it or not.  Yes, it doesn't follow Breuer and that leads to different pronounciation and
> different trup in a number of places.  I use the tikkun but always look at Breuer as well.  However, we're being "laining snobs" if we
> don't admit it is the best Tikkun on the market for the average koreh
> today.»
>
> It may be THE best Tikkun but the page is "too busy" for me [and in general that's unusual for me to say that]
>
> «Simanim does not follow the Minchas Shai in all places, i.e. ויתילדו
> in Bamidmar 1:18.  They have a shva na under the lamed in my edition,
> the Minchas Shai is clear in Ma'amar Hamaarich that it is nach.»
>
> My understanding was that  simanim Tikkun does not always agree with simanim Tanach
>

> As chaimspiel...@yahoo.com wrote

[rabbiri...@gmail.com]

mjgu...@gmail.com
«and I use a standard tikkun because the

simanim is just distracting for me. For consultation, though, I use a

Koren tanach.»

When is was working in Northern Manhattan I used
A. A Heidenheim Tiqqun [yes there is one]
B a Heidenheim Humash - especially for the breakdown of aliyot
C. Also a Koren Tiqqun
[Which has its own plusses and minusses]

Since we lained "minhag Roedelheim" Heidenheim was followed almost 100%.

Nevertheless, I did try to be aware of variations from other Minhaggim. I often was laining weekdays in a Teneck Minyan so I needed to be "bilingual" so to speak.

I would say that the simanim Tiqqun is a good refernce work for teaching the finer points such as tricky sh'va na's and other subtleties. But it's too busy to learn the weekly parshah

Maybe a bar mitzvah boy who has a year or more to study should use a simanim - if he can handle the complexity.

[marshall...@comcast.net]

One problem with Simanim is that, even in the version marked 'Nusach Ashkenaz', it uses the rules of the medieval Sephardi grammarians to determine which qamatzim are qaton.   This differs markedly from normative modern (Israeli) Hebrew in that the Sephardim restricted the qamatz qaton to closed syllables (ending in a consonant), while modern Hebrew defines several cases where a qamatz on an open syllable is qaton (e.g., immeditely preceding a hatef qamatz or another qamatz qaton).

----- Original Message -----
From: "Meyer Shields (Baltimore)" <mshi...@stifel.com>
To: lei...@googlegroups.com

[JECg...@aol.com]

I also find the Simanim tiqun rather busy, and prefer it as a reference than as my "working" tiqun.

 

Although I am far from expert, it seems to me that the Simanim generally follows sefaradi rather than ashkenazi grammar traditions, particularly regarding qamatz qatan (pardon my inaccuracies).  I personally have no problem with that; in fact, when I layn in havara sefardit I usually follow it, notwithstanding that havara sefardit and sefaradi grammar don't necessarily go hand in hand.  From what I've seen so far, I suspect others in this group will disagree...

 

I was unaware that there is a Heidenheim Tiqqun.  Does anyone know where I can get one?

 

Ephraim

 

[Sammy Noe]

Following Radak's statement that "Kadashim" has a normal kamatz under the kuf (Sh'mois 29:10, I think), as it is not a completely unstressed letter - it has a meseg - I have always told my students that the Hebrew word for "midday" is "tzahorayim", as the tzadi is half stressed. Kind regards Sammy Noe 07723 018821 samof...@yahoo.co.uk --- On Wed, 9/6/10, marshall...@comcast.net <marshall...@comcast.net> wrote:

[AMK Judaica]

busy because of the extra nikkud or because of the marginal commentaries? i have a few different copies of simanim, but the one ii regularly use is a smaller edition (not the pocket edition). it lacks the minhat shai and the shita mekubetzet appears separately in the front of the volume.

 
kol tuv,
ari kinsberg
 

---

From: JECg...@aol.com
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 05:22:23 -0400
Subject: Re: [leining] Re: request a list of Accepted Authorities
To: lei...@googlegroups.com

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[AMK Judaica]

MARSHALL:
 
i think what you are describing is not necessarily a novel feature of modern israeli hebrew, but reflects a much older mahloket over whether a kamatz in an open syllable that originates as a cholam should be katan or gadol.
 
this was discussed at legnth on our earlier forums. sigh.

 
kol tuv,
ari kinsberg
 

---

Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 00:43:46 +0000
From: marshall...@comcast.net
To: lei...@googlegroups.com

The New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with Hotmail. Get busy.

[AMK Judaica]

a good text (in terms of accuracy) should satisfy two conditions:
 
1) prepared by an expert in the field
2) have a detailed introduction explaining editing principles and/or (preferably both) some type of apparatus to explain specific decisions.
 
based on these 2 i rely on r. breuer (aside from personal reasons):
 
1) he is an ackowledged expert in masorah and litterly spent almost his entire life trying to produce a good tanach text
2) he explained his general editing principles in detail in numerous places. furthermore, his decisions for specific instances are explained in 4 separate books, many journal articles and detailed/annotated lists of hilufim on the entire tanach (published in the intros to each volume of daat mikra). i.e., we can generally know where a particular reading comes from.
 
based on these 2 i don't rely on simanim:
1) i'm sure he know a tremendous amount, but is there any evidence that he is a masorah scholar?
2) we really have no idea as to his general editing principles or to how he arrived at specifc readings. he does not slavishly follow either minhat shai or aleppo/leningrad (as different people have suggested) and when we come across a strange reading, we have no idea if it comes from a good source, a bad source or simply a mistake. (this problem becomes worse from the fact that there are variants between the different simanim tikkunim, as well as with the tanach, but again we don't know if every change was intentional or a mistake, and if the former then based on what)
 
as i said earlier, simanim is very valuable as an educational tool and practical tikkun for the baal kore. i don't mean to minimize thes roles. but it isn't an authority on text matters and i think a baal kore should go over a leining at least once with a better text.
 
kol tuv,
ari kinsberg

 
> Subject: RE: [leining] request a list of Accepted Authorities

> Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 11:29:41 -0500

[Michael Gutmann]

I find the highlights, notes, and various vowels added to the tikkun
side to be distracting. I want my tikkun to look like what I can
expect to see in the sefer on Shabbos. That's also why I'm not a big
fan of the Koren tikkun either.

-Michael-

On Jun 10, 7:57 am, AMK Judaica <amkjuda...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> busy because of the extra nikkud or because of the marginal commentaries? i have a few different copies of simanim, but the one ii regularly use is a smaller edition (not the pocket edition). it lacks the minhat shai and the shita mekubetzet appears separately in the front of the volume.
>
> kol tuv,
>
> ari kinsberg
>

> From: JECgab...@aol.com
> Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 05:22:23 -0400
> Subject: Re: [leining] Re: request a list of Accepted Authorities
> To: lei...@googlegroups.com
>
> I also find the Simanim tiqun rather busy, and prefer it as a reference than as my "working" tiqun.
>
> Although I am far from expert, it seems to me that the Simanim generally follows sefaradi rather than ashkenazi grammar traditions, particularly regarding qamatz qatan (pardon my inaccuracies).  I personally have no problem with that; in fact, when I layn in havara sefardit I usually follow it, notwithstanding that havara sefardit and sefaradi grammar don't necessarily go hand in hand.  From what I've seen so far, I suspect others in this group will disagree...
>
> I was unaware that there is a Heidenheim Tiqqun.  Does anyone know where I can get one?
>
> Ephraim
>
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> _________________________________________________________________
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[Tom Buchler]

Why does it make sense to apply rules of normative modern Israeli Hebrew to 3300 year-old texts? That would be like claiming a higher authenticity by altering Shakespeare's grammar to conform to modern spoken American English.

Weren't the medieval Sephardi grammarians attempting to specify a grammar specific to the language found in Tanach?

-Tom

[Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon]

I agree. However, the Simanim has a strong advantage in that itmatches the layout of the standard torah. Iuse it for this reason, but use the deluxe version with 4 columns, one of which is relatively clean. It still has markings and pasuk numbers,which I don't like, but I find it clean enough to use.

Jeremy

[Chaim Spielman]

And the sefardi gramarians were accepted by the azhkenazi gramarians as well. 

I think applying normative modern Hebrew is no different than applying the European azhkenazic vinacular which was greatly influenced by Polish grammar.

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 10, 2010, at 10:38 AM, Tom Buchler <tbuc...@kinnor.com> wrote:

Why does it make sense to apply rules of normative modern Israeli Hebrew to 3300 year-old texts? That would be like claiming a higher authenticity by altering Shakespeare's grammar to conform to modern spoken American English.

Weren't the medieval Sephardi grammarians attempting to specify a grammar specific to the language found in Tanach?

-Tom

marshall...@comcast.net wrote:

One problem with Simanim is that, even in the version marked 'Nusach Ashkenaz', it uses the rules of the medieval Sephardi grammarians to determine which qamatzim are qaton.   This differs markedly from normative modern (Israeli) Hebrew in that the Sephardim restricted the qamatz qaton to closed syllables (ending in a consonant), while modern Hebrew defines several cases where a qamatz on an open syllable is qaton (e.g., immeditely preceding a hatef qamatz or another qamatz qaton).

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[rabbiri...@gmail.com]

I was unaware that there is a Heidenheim Tiqqun.  Does anyone know where I can get one? 

Ephraim»

IIRC Published by mishor  I will BE"H follow up with details

To R Michael Gutmann:
I primarily use/used my Koren Tikkun because after R Victor Sussman bound it - it's the most durable and fairly portable ;-)

[Ari]

Jeremy,

I never saw this edition. What ar e the four columns?

One of the reasons I use simanim rather than the chorev (r Breuer)
tikkun is because it matches the layout that is current today. However
I do like to go over a leining once with chorev to make sure I know it
even if the layout doesn't match (ESP with Esther, which does not have
breaks to let you look ahead and "cheat")
I used to use koren for this purpose but iirc I didn't like it
because there was an extra gap between each pasuk and this wasn't a
good way to test myself

Kol tuv,
Ari kinsberg

On Jun 10, 2010, at 10:53 AM, Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon <jeremy...@nyu.edu
> wrote:

>> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/leining?hl=en
>> .
>>
>>
>

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[Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon]

This topic is too large to really address in a post, but I would point out that one question you need to ask in deciding what set of kamatz katons to use is why you feel you should be distinguishing between Kamatz gadol and kamatz katon. I would also point out that the distinction was (essentially) unknown to the tiberian nakdanim.

Jeremy

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[Art Werschulz]

Hi.

On Jun 10, 2010, at 10:53 AM, Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon wrote:

> I agree. However, the Simanim has a strong advantage in that it matches the layout of the standard torah.

What's a "standard Torah"? Our shul's sifrei Torah match neither each other nor any of the tiqqunim I've seen. One of our scrolls is a close match for KTAV, and the other is close to Simanim. Note that these scrolls aren't too far off from each other; neither are KTAV and Simanim.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I tend to internalize the tzurat ha-daf of whichever tiqqun I use to learn a leining. This means that when I lein "for real", the different tzurat ha-daf will sometimes throw me off; verse breaks (and the like) are not where I expect them to be.

Note that this internalization process is subconscious; I certainly don't go out of my way to do this. I keep hoping that with more time, this effect will lessen. But I've been leining for over twenty years, and I don't think that this has gotten better.

If any of you have the same problem, here are my coping mechanisms:

(1) If possible, get an advance look at the scroll from which I'll be leining, and figure out which tiqqun is closer to same.
(2) Learn out of both tiqqunim, to lessen my dependence on the tzurat ha-daf.

PS: Our shul's Megillat Esther isn't close to either tiqqun.

Art Werschulz
207 Stoughton Avenue, Cranford NJ 07016-2838
(908) 272-1146

[rabbiri...@gmail.com]

I didn't like it
because there was an extra gap between each pasuk and this wasn't a
good way to test myself

Kol tuv,

Ari kinsberg»

I agree this is. Weakness in Koren because the tiqqun side has a gap for the sof passuq.

Nevertheless, when I'm first preparing this crutch can be handy.
Also the fact that it does NOT match the tzurat hadaf can be useful. Many sifrei torah havw a non-standard tzurah

KT
RRW



Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

[Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon]

I don't know but my old ktav and mishor tikkunim never really matched teh lay out of the torahs I would use, and simanim tends to match the various torah's I am now exposed to pretty well. But perhaps it's just an idiosyncrasy of the torahs I get to use.

Jeremy

----- Original Message -----
From: Art Werschulz <a...@comcast.net>
Date: Thursday, June 10, 2010 11:19 am
Subject: [leining] standard Torah [was Re: request a list of Accepted Authorities]
To: lei...@googlegroups.com

[Ari]

RRW:

I think I have a mishor tikkun somwhere. I havnt used it in a long
time but I don't recall it sayin g anything about heidenheim. Is it
actuly I identified as a heidenheim edition or do you know this the
way you know koren is heidenheim :)

My small simanim was getting destroyed because I carried it on the
train with me. I had it rebound very well and it will remain my main
Practicing tikkun for a long time unless I have a good reason to get
rid of it. (I've also marked it up, which is another reason I had it
rebound even though it would have been cheaper to buy a new copy of a
newer edition)

Kol tuv,
Ari kinsberg

[Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon]

The four columns are spread over the two facing pages. On the right hand page are the ususal two columns of the simanim. On the left hand page is a column without all the shading, large letters, etc. of the second simanim column (but with this superscripted letters refering to the bottom of the page. The fourth column is targum onkelos. I guess really I should say there are 5 columns because there is also the michnat shai and their masoretic notes to the left of the targum.

Jeremy R. Simon, MD, PhD, FACEP
Assistant Professor of Clinical Medicine (Emergency Medicine)
Scholar-in-Residence, Center for Bioethics
Columbia University

[Michael Gutmann]

I guess I've been leining long enough that I don't want my tikkun to
teach me how to lein, I just want a leining-like experience for my
weekly run-through. And if I need to check the pronunciation of a
word, I'll pull out a chumash.

-Michael-

On Jun 10, 11:18 am, rabbirichwol...@gmail.com wrote:

>
> I agree this is. Weakness in Koren because the tiqqun side has a gap for the sof passuq.
>
> Nevertheless, when I'm first preparing this crutch can be handy.  
> Also the fact that it does NOT match the tzurat hadaf can be useful.  Many sifrei torah havw a non-standard tzurah
>
> KT
> RRW
>
> Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ari <amkjuda...@hotmail.com>
> Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 11:07:43
> To: lei...@googlegroups.com<lei...@googlegroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [leining] Re: request a list of Accepted Authorities
>
> Jeremy,
>
> I never saw this edition. What ar e the four columns?
>
> One of the reasons I use simanim rather than the chorev (r Breuer)  
> tikkun is because it matches the layout that is current today. However  
> I do like to go over a leining once with chorev to make sure I know it  
> even if the layout doesn't match (ESP with Esther, which does not have  
> breaks to let you look ahead and "cheat")
> I used to use koren for this purpose but iirc I didn't like it  
> because there was an extra gap between each pasuk and this wasn't a  
> good way to test myself
>
> Kol tuv,
> Ari kinsberg
>

> On Jun 10, 2010, at 10:53 AM, Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon <jeremy.si...@nyu.edu

> >> For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/leining?hl=en

> >> .
>
> > --
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> > Groups "leining" group.
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> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to leining+u...@googlegroups.com
> > .

> > For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/leining?hl=en

[Michael Poppers]

On Jun 9, 11:06 am, cantornei...@aol.com wrote:
> Shalom,
>
> Please allow me to introduce myself, as a
> newcomer to this group.
>
> I am Hazzan Neil Schwartz, JTS '80.  For
> many years I taught leining at workshops for
> Jewish educators (CAJE), and several times
> for lay leaders at the IMUN Program of USCJ.
>
> I now teach Cantillation online for Hebrew
> College.  This group was mentioned to me
> as a "place where high-level discussions on
> details of Cantillation" regularly take place.
>

Welcome, Hazzan Schwartz!

> A few questions:  
>
<<snip>>

>
> 5.  Is a newcomer welcome to express opinions
>     on the various topics as they are discussed?
>

Undoubtedly, and everyone else is welcome to respond to said
opinions :).

> Looking forward to hearing (actually, to seeing)
> some answers for these five questions, before
> I express any opinions on a current topic.
>
> Todah Rabbah v'Shalom,
>
> Neil S.

I hope you've seen answers from Ari Kinsberg et al. by now and look
forward to your opinions!

A guten Shabbes/Shabbas Shalom and
all the best from
Michael Poppers * Elizabeth, NJ, USA

[rabbiri...@gmail.com]

Art
a...@comcast.net
«If any of you have the same problem, here are my coping mechanisms:»

As I had hinted earlier.. using 2 tiqqunim one which has a tzurah [EG ktav] and one without [EG Koren] helps

Note that while KTAV's Tzurah is indeed popular - It is by no means universal.

[AMK Judaica]

ART:
 
i have the same problem of internalizing the layout. it's especially a problem when you have a series of pesukim or parshiyot that start with the same word
 
regarding your suggestion of getting an advanced look, i don't this is practical for most people (although in 17th c. brazil it was required by takkanah to look over the parshah during the week in the sefer torah used for leining, albeit it for a different reason), although i try to do this with the megillah
 
for bar mitzvah boys, however, i always made sure they had a chance to practice a few times from the sefer they'd lein from.

 
kol tuv,
ari kinsberg
http://agmk.blogspot.

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[Sammy Noe]

For barmitzvah boys I always make sure they have a good four weeks' practice in thwe sefer toiroh out of which they will lein.

---

From: AMK Judaica <amkju...@hotmail.com>
To: lei...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sun, 13 June, 2010 21:20:26
Subject: RE: [leining] standard Torah [was Re: request a list of Accepted Authorities]