targum/tirgum

[Avram Herzog]

 Hi,

Is there a nuanced difference between targum and tirgum?  We refer to Targum Onk'los and Targum Hashivim (Septuagint).

Three possibilities occur to me: 

1. Tirgum is a translation of a word or phrase, but targum is a work itself.

2. Tirgum is nifrad, but targum is samuch.

3. Tirgum is Ivrit, but targum is (influenced by) Aramit.

Are any of these correct (I'm leaning towards my #1)?

Any insight here?

Tx,

Avi H

 

 

[Zev Sero]

What is "tirgum" anyway? Where do we find such a word?

--
Zev Sero
z...@sero.name

[Avram Herzog]

Hi Zev,

I believe tirgum is the modern Ivrit word for a translation, and part of what I'm wondering is if it's an older word (pre Ben Yehudah--I use that term loosely).  And I just don't know.

Kol Tuv,

Avi H 

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[Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon]

I am not filial with tirgum, but perhaps targ is a translation whereas tirgum is the gerund. 

[AMK Judaica]

AVRAM:
 
i've always used tirgum when speaking hebrew in the sense of a translation of a work (noun) or even a definition of a single word vs. targum as a genre (or specific body) of biblical literature. but now that i looked into it (superficially), perhaps i use tirgum the wrong way?
 
in ben yehuda's dictionary (posthumous ca. 1959 and not clear if ben yehuda or tur sinai) he defines targum as a translation (noun) from one language to another (all the examples here are for biblical targumim, but in the separate entry for tirgem (verb) he has examples for translation in general). he does not list a separate entry for tirgum but see foonote 1 (attached): in contemporary language some distinguish between targum in the sense of the product of the translation, and tirgum, which is the act of translating from tirgem. (this note is in brackets, which i think indicates it is from tur sinai).
 
even shoshan (one vol. ed.) and alkalay (large heb-eng) likewise distinguishes between targum as a noun (for biblical or general literature) and tirgum as the act of translating.
 
kol tuv,
ari
 
 
 


Ari Kinsberg
MA, PharmD, RPh
Brooklyn, New York
**************
Click here to register as a bone marrow donor. It's the easiest way to save a child's life.

[R. Rich Wolpoe]

R Herzog:
> 1. Tirgum is a translation of a word or phrase, but targum is a work itself.»

Or rephrased in light of Ari's Post

1. Tirgum is the ACTION [gerund] of translating a word or phrase, and the targum is the work itself - the PRODUCT.




Shalom and Best Regsrds,
RRW

[Avram Herzog]

Thanks all for your responses on this!  (I have power in the storm's aftermath, and coulda/shoulda looked it up myself).

KT,

Avi H 

[Zev Sero]

I don't believe TRGM is a (pre-Ben-Yehuda) Hebrew root, that can be
conjugated like Hebrew, and I don't believe "tirgum" is a real
(pre-BY) Hebrew word. I don't think it appears in any source older
than the 20th century.

--
Zev Sero
z...@sero.name

[Simon Montagu]

On 11/01/2012 08:58 PM, Zev Sero wrote:
> I don't believe TRGM is a (pre-Ben-Yehuda) Hebrew root, that can be
> conjugated like Hebrew,

Mishna Megilla 4:6 katan kore batora umetargem

> and I don't believe "tirgum" is a real
> (pre-BY) Hebrew word. I don't think it appears in any source older
> than the 20th century.

What did people like Ibn Tibbon call what they did?

[Zev Sero]

On 1 November 2012 18:17, Simon Montagu <shaf...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On 11/01/2012 08:58 PM, Zev Sero wrote:
>>
>> I don't believe TRGM is a (pre-Ben-Yehuda) Hebrew root, that can be
>> conjugated like Hebrew,
>
>
> Mishna Megilla 4:6 katan kore batora umetargem

Yes. Now find "tirgum". You won't. The active verb is "metargem".
The person who does it is a "meturgemon". "Translated" is "metorgom"
(with a shva and two komatzes, IIRC).

>
>
>> and I don't believe "tirgum" is a real
>> (pre-BY) Hebrew word. I don't think it appears in any source older
>> than the 20th century.
>
>
> What did people like Ibn Tibbon call what they did?
>

Probably "targum".

>
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Zev Sero
z...@sero.name

[Meir BenChayim]

    In Sota 8b we find "Amar Abayei TRGMH a-nashim."  In Bava Kamma 68a we have "TRGMH Rav Nachman."  The first is imperative, the second is past tense; to the best of my knowledge, the first is pronounced with a patach under the tav, the second with a chirik.
 
Meir
 

> Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 18:25:32 -0400
> Subject: Re: [leining] targum/tirgum
> From: z...@sero.name
> To: lei...@googlegroups.com

[Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon]

Are these Aramaic or Hebrew passages?

[Zev Sero]

On 2 November 2012 16:25, Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon <jr...@nyu.edu> wrote:

> On Nov 2, 2012, at 4:24 PM, Meir BenChayim <mei...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> In Sota 8b we find "Amar Abayei TRGMH a-nashim." In Bava Kamma 68a we
>> have "TRGMH Rav Nachman." The first is imperative, the second is past
>> tense; to the best of my knowledge, the first is pronounced with a patach
>> under the tav, the second with a chirik.

> Are these Aramaic or Hebrew passages?

Mixed, so there aren't really any fixed rules. But in any case, I don't
believe the second passage is in the past tense. It seems to me that
it's in the subjunctive, and I have no idea what vocalisation the
original redactor intended.


--
Zev Sero
z...@sero.name

[Aaron Naiman]

Still getting these ....  -- Shavua tov, Aharon

Aaron ("Aharon") Naiman
Jerusalem College of Technology--Machon Lev
nai...@jct.ac.il
http://jct.ac.il/~naiman

[Meir BenChayim]

 
 
> I don't believe TRGM is a (pre-Ben-Yehuda) Hebrew root, that can be
> conjugated like Hebrew, and I don't believe "tirgum" is a real
> (pre-BY) Hebrew word. I don't think it appears in any source older
> than the 20th century.
>

> Zev Sero
 
     Rambam, Hilchot Kelei Hamikdash, 10:2: "ve'al ha'avneit meforash bakabbala 'velo yachgeru bayaza,' bamakom shemezi'in, vechach kibbeil Yonatan ben Uzieil mipi hanevi'im,  vetirgeim 'al levavhon yeiserun.' "

 

Meir

    
 

[Zev Sero]

And therefore? How does that prove it can be conjugated like a Hebrew
word, or that there's such a word as "tirgum"?
--
Zev Sero
z...@sero.name

[Meir BenChayim]

 
  > >
> >
> >> I don't believe TRGM is a (pre-Ben-Yehuda) Hebrew root, that can be
> >> conjugated like Hebrew, and I don't believe "tirgum" is a real
> >> (pre-BY) Hebrew word. I don't think it appears in any source older
> >> than the 20th century.
> >>
> >> Zev Sero
> >
> > Rambam, Hilchot Kelei Hamikdash, 10:2: "ve'al ha'avneit meforash
> > bakabbala 'velo yachgeru bayaza,' bamakom shemezi'in, vechach kibbeil
> > Yonatan ben Uzieil mipi hanevi'im, vetirgeim 'al levavhon yeiserun.'
>
>
> And therefore? How does that prove it can be conjugated like a Hebrew
> word, or that there's such a word as "tirgum"?
> --
> Zev Sero
 

     You've lost me.  What is "tirgeim," if not third person singular past tense of the verb TRGM?  "Yetargeim" also appears in the Ramnbam.  Are these not conjugations like a Hebrew root? 
 
Meir

[Zev Sero]

They're adaptations of a foreign word; one use doesn't prove that all
possible conjugations are legitimate. So long as you don't find an
example of "tirgum" you can't maintain that it's a legitimate word,
and therefore cannot begin to ask how it might differ from "targum",
a word we do know exists.

--
Zev Sero
z...@sero.name

[Meir BenChayim]

 
> >> >> I don't believe TRGM is a (pre-Ben-Yehuda) Hebrew root, that can be
> >> >> conjugated like Hebrew, and I don't believe "tirgum" is a real
> >> >> (pre-BY) Hebrew word. I don't think it appears in any source older
> >> >> than the 20th century.
> >> >>
> >> >> Zev Sero
> >> >
> >> > Rambam, Hilchot Kelei Hamikdash, 10:2: "ve'al ha'avneit meforash
> >> > bakabbala 'velo yachgeru bayaza,' bamakom shemezi'in, vechach kibbeil
> >> > Yonatan ben Uzieil mipi hanevi'im, vetirgeim 'al levavhon yeiserun.'
> >>
> >>
> >> And therefore? How does that prove it can be conjugated like a Hebrew
> >> word, or that there's such a word as "tirgum"?>>

> > You've lost me. What is "tirgeim," if not third person singular past
> > tense of the verb TRGM? "Yetargeim" also appears in the Ramnbam. Are these
> > not conjugations like a Hebrew root?
>
> They're adaptations of a foreign word; one use doesn't prove that all
> possible conjugations are legitimate. So long as you don't find an
> example of "tirgum" you can't maintain that it's a legitimate word,
> and therefore cannot begin to ask how it might differ from "targum",
> a word we do know exists.

     You made two claims: (1) TRGM is not conjugated as a Hebrew verb pre-twentieth century, and (2) "tirgum" is not a pre-Ben Yehuda word.  On the second, you may be right, and I, for one, never claimed otherwise; short of finding a manuscript in which it is written in ketiv malei, with a yod, one can always claim that the nikkud of the tav is a patach.  On the first, however -- unless you will only accept as proof a full conjugation, there is ample evidence that by the time of the Rambam, at the latest, it was an accepted Hebrew verb.  We have "tirgeim."  We have "yetargeim."  We have "metargeim."  We have "mitargeim."

 

     In fact, we have a pasuk (Ezra 4:7), "umeturgam Aramit."  The gemara in Kiddushin 49a has "ad sheyikra viytargeim."  How much more is needed to show that it is a legitimate, conjugatable Hebrew verb?

 

Meir
> --
> Zev Sero
> z...@sero.name

[AMK Judaica (Ari)]

ZEV:

3 issues. first. it is most certainly conjugatable. in addition to the
examples in hebrew texts (aside from numerous aramaic texts of course)
given already, there is also 14th c. meir ibn adlabi in sheviley
emunah (preface): ki me-sefarim yekarim hibartim u-me-leshonot zarim
tirgamtim (i haven't seen this inside, but it is cited in ben yehuda's
entry for tirgem, vol. 8, pp. 7898-99). jastrow btw says its related
to (or derived from?) RGM. secondly, is tirgum pre-ben yehuda? i have
no idea, even ben yehuda doesn't cite it (tur sinai, who completed the
dictionary, does; as an aside, ben yehuda's dictionary wasn't
comprehensive and lacks even his own neologisms). but so whaat, there
are many, many words (probably the vast majority) that aren't fully
conjugated or declined (or suffixed/prefixed) in hebrew literature
(certainly so if one restricts to tanakh itself), so are you saying
that unattested forms that follow standard patters are illegitimate?
finally, how do you define a "real" hebrew word. you note that we
don't know of example before the 20th c. so if we find an example from
1901 it means nothing, but if from 1899 then it is a "real" hebrew
word? or does it have to be from 1799? 1099? 99? i don't have a good
answer to this question myself and i find myself appalled at the heavy
use of english words in contemporary hebrew, for example. but what
makes a word a "real" hebrew word?

kol tuv,
ari

[Zev Sero]

My point is that until it's established that "tirgum" is a real word
it makes no sense to ask how it differs from "targum".

[Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon]

What more do you want than that Tur-Sinai cited it. What makes it a real word (in light of Ari's comments).

Jeremy

On Mon, Nov 5, 2012 at 11:53 AM, Zev Sero <z...@sero.name> wrote:

My point is that until it's established that "tirgum" is a real word
it makes no sense to ask how it differs from "targum".

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[Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon]

According to Kohler Baumgartner, is is a loan word from Akkadian (less likely, Hittite), and the root includes 't' (negged Jastrow--at least, it is not derived from RGM).

Jeremy

>
> --
> Zev Sero
> z...@sero.name

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