Simanim vs. Breuer

[Avram Herzog]

 Hi Jeremy,

What would the differences in criteria for sh'va na/nach be between Simanim and Breuer to which you refer?

Also, for those interested, Koren has a tikkun with a similar format--a regular page with no t'amim or nikkud on the opposing page, but not a Sefer Torah layout.

KT,

Avi H

 

 

On 10/31/12, Jeremy Rosenbaum Simonedu> wrote:

 

Yes it is. The edition they have appears to be the one that does not use the usual format that is similar to a Sefer Torah rather it, it is more or less the size of a normal sefer, with punctuated text on Abe page ANC tikkun text on the facing pages. Rather than have one column of Torah text per page with Torah sized lines, it just has as much text happens to fit on each line/page. There is at least one error in this tikkun -- a missing word (only in the tikkun side) in כי תצא. More recently, chorev has published a "normal" layout edition (with some additional material -- and the above error corrected.)

The new edition is probably preferable to tgd old one for several reasons, mostly indicated above, but it seems difficult to get. The old one (thus one) is perfectly adequate (and much better than any alternative) for those who want tomoreoard their leining according to R. Breuer's text. Note that the markings of shva na/nach and Kamatz Katan in the tikkun are by the publisher, not R. Breuer, and at least in the former cast, use different criteria than simanim. 

Jeremy

On Oct 30, 2012, at 8:19 PM, Bracha Jaffe <bracha...@gmail.com> wrote:

Is this the correct link?

http://www.mysefer.com/search.asp?strSearchCriteria=exact&strKeywords=Tikun+Korim+%28Chorev%29&numRecordPosition=1

And is there a large edition as well?

On Tue, Oct 30, 2012 at 8:10 PM, Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon <jr...@nyu.edu> wrote:

The small edition appear to be available at mysefer.com if you search
the site for "chorev" it is item #3.

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[Ari]

Avram:

Breuer tikkun hews to the masorah for sheva na/nach with very few exceptions. Simanim follows the standard 5 dikduk rules of na/nach.

Ari Kinsberg

MA, PharmD, RPh

Brooklyn, New York

**************

Give a child the best birthday present ever . . . the ability to live to celebrate yet another birthday. Visit https://www.dkmsamericas.org/register to register as a bone marrow donor.

[Avram Herzog]

 Thanks, Ari.

What's nice about Simanim, though, is that it has Minchat Shai on the margin.

KT,

Avi H

[Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon]

I accidentally permanently deleted Ari response, but I would qualify it somewhat. Chorev/Breuer still puts a sha na after a tnua gedola. But it does use the masoretic rules in deciding whether the shva under the first of two of the same letter is na or nach. The standard rules always have it as na. 

Jeremy

On Oct 31, 2012, at 11:00 AM, Avram Herzog <avm...@verizon.net> wrote:

[AMK Judaica]

jeremy:
 
yes, that's true.
 
1) any reason why this distinction was made between otiyot domot and tenu'a gedola?
2) i don't have the horev tanach (i have the chumash/siddur packed away somewhere), but i for some reason i think there is a pronounciation/reading guide at the end? does it explain anything? is it by r. breuer himself?
3) if i remember correctly, masoretically there is still a sheva na after tenu'a gedola if indicated by ge'aya kala? (indicated by other metagim or hataf also?)
 
kol tuv,
ari

Ari Kinsberg
MA, PharmD, RPh
Brooklyn, New York
**************

Click here to register as a bone marrow donor. It's the easiest way to save a child's life.


 

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From: jr...@nyu.edu
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 12:24:36 -0400
Subject: Re: [leining] Simanim vs. Breuer
To: lei...@googlegroups.com

[Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon]

On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 5:32 AM, AMK Judaica <amkju...@hotmail.com> wrote:

 
1) any reason why this distinction was made between otiyot domot and tenu'a gedola?

 

I have no idea

 

2) i don't have the horev tanach (i have the chumash/siddur packed away somewhere), but i for some reason i think there is a pronounciation/reading guide at the end? does it explain anything? is it by r. breuer himself?

 

I don't have the tanach

 

3) if i remember correctly, masoretically there is still a sheva na after tenu'a gedola if indicated by ge'aya kala? (indicated by other metagim or hataf also?)

There are some cases where a meteg indicates a shva na, but there is no rule such as this one, nor any one that refers to a TG or TK as such.

Jeremy

 
kol tuv,
ari

[AMK Judaica]

Jeremy:

 
"but there is no rule such as this one, nor any one that refers to a TG or TK as such."
 

i know you are referring to classical sources, but r. breuer does use TG/TK terminology, specifically wrt to some of the metagim (e.g., there is even a class of meteg for TG in a closed syllable [another non-classical term?]). i don't recall, but does yeivin?
also, what percentage of "TG"s are followed by sheva na vs. nach? can one extrapolate a general rule re. sheva following TG? (e.g., with otiyot domot, i do think it's fair to say that it is the general rule in the vast majority of cases that the sheva is na, even though the rule is much more nuanced and even after that there are exceptions?)

 
kol tuv,
ari

Ari Kinsberg
MA, PharmD, RPh
Brooklyn, New York
**************
Click here to register as a bone marrow donor. It's the easiest way to save a child's life.


 

---

Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 07:35:40 -0400

Subject: Re: [leining] Simanim vs. Breuer

From: jeremy...@nyu.edu
To: lei...@googlegroups.com

[AMK Judaica]

AVRAM:
 
iirc the minhat shai in simanim is abridged. in any case, i can't say enough times that the betzer edition of minhat shai is a basic required work for those interested in the matters we are interested in. (as with electronics, with books too i think stand alone units are the way to go, even if less convenient.)
 
also, someone (jeremy?) noted format comparison of breuer and koren tikkun. one thing (among many others) i never liked about the koren tikkun is that there is a slight but discernable gap between pesukim on the torah side.
 
kol tuv,
ari

Ari Kinsberg
MA, PharmD, RPh
Brooklyn, New York
**************

Click here to register as a bone marrow donor. It's the easiest way to save a child's life.


 

---

Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 10:14:49 -0500
From: avm...@verizon.net
To: lei...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Re: [leining] Simanim vs. Breuer

[Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon]

yeivin (who is my usual reference) doesn't use that terminology, but you are right that Breuer does. I'd have to look inside to see if he formulates a rule in those terms. As for percentages of TG followed by each type of shva, I'm not sure, but my impression is that the large majority have a shva nach. The number of metegim that cause/indicate a shva na, is pretty small. A quick check of the list at the back of a brueur tanach will indicate this, since they are almost all listed there (and some of those listed are TK, I am sure). ButI have not done the statistical survey you are suggesting, so it is possible my impressions are wrong.

Jeremy

[Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon]

One of my pet peeves in tikkunim is those that even put the pasuk numbers is a place where they are visible from the torah side, like in the margin between the two columns. Alas, even the new Breuer is guilty of this.

Jeremy

Jeremy R. Simon, MD, PhD, FACEP
Associate Clinical Professor of Medicine (Emergency Medicine)
Scholar-in-Residence, Center for Bioethics
Columbia University

[Avram Herzog]

Hi Ari,

Yes, MS in Simanim is abridged, but it's still nice to have it on the daf itself (at least for me).  As to Koren tikkun, I too don't like that pause between p'sukim--these aids don't help me personally; they deter me.  In any event, I still love it!

KT,

Avi H 

[Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon]

The Simanim MS generally has everything that is relevant to proper leining (as opposed to spelling issues). Of course, Betzer still has many advantages.
Jeremy

[MG]

Yeivin does use the terminology "tenuah arukha" and "tenuah ketzarah"
throughout his chapter on gaayot, in differentiating between the
different types of gaayot and where they appear, much like Breuer does
-- so it seems clear that the Tiberians did have a distinction between
TG and TK. Another place he uses this terminology and where the
Tiberians had a distinction is in the chapter on Maqaf-Nasog Achor,
where he states that Nasog Achor will typically not occur when a word
ends in a "tenuah aruka" with a closed syllable. Most of us are
familiar with that rule.

True, in Dikdukei HaTaamim and other Masoretic works you will not see
these words used, and the Tiberians didn't have a rule that shva na
follows a "long vowel", but they had to have distinguished beyween
those two classes of vowels.



On Nov 1, 8:20 am, Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon <jeremy.si...@nyu.edu>
wrote:

[Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon]

The distinction between tnua gedola and ketana is not the same as that between tnua arucha and ketzara. To the best of my recollection, the tnu'ot aruchot are cholam and tzeire, and perhaps occasional kamatzs. I may be somewhat wrong there, but even if the prior list is not entirely accurate, one thing that can definitely be said is that however you divide the te'amim into aruchot and ketzarot, the pair chirik malei/chaser and shuruk/kubutz will be classified the same, as opposed to the division between gedolot and ketanot.

Jeremy

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