Az Yashir Yisroel

[MG]

A koreh I know recently mentioned to me that he leins the Shira of the
B'er in this week's parsha to the "Az Yashir" tune that we all know
from Beshalach. I had never heard of that. Leaving aside the broader
question of using different tunes for different verses in the Torah -
does anyone here lein this Shira with that tune, or any special tune?
And for those who don't (including me), why don't we?

[rabbiri...@gmail.com]

MG
«does anyone here lein this Shira with that tune, or any special tune?

And for those who don't (including me), why don't we?»

Ditto for Ha'azinu

RRW

Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

[Giorgies E. Kepipesiom]

On Jun 16, 4:46 pm, rabbirichwol...@gmail.com wrote:
> MG
> «does anyone here lein this Shira with that tune, or any special tune?
>
> And for those who don't (including me), why don't we?»
>
> Ditto for Ha'azinu
>

I do not, and have never heard anyone do this. But the question should
not be why don't we for Chukas and Haazinu, but why do we for
Beshalach? Using a special tune for the shira in Beshalach is itself a
chiddush, and the general rule for a chiddush is that ein lo ela
chiddusho. Beshlach has a tradition behind it. The others don't.

Nonetheless, it seems to me that it would not be so terrible if
someone did read the other shiros with a special tune, since the shira
tune does follow the trop, save that the melodies for the trops are
slightly different. On the other hand, three weeks hence we will be
reading (Mattos)-Mas'ei. Here people read the masa'os with a sing-song
entirely unrelated to the trop, and also combine each two pesuqim into
a sort of couplet, ignoring the siluq at the end of the first. I don't
know how old or how authentic this tradition is, but my own master and
teacher Uncle Leib strongly cautioned me not to do it since we do not
know who, with what authority, authorised us to ignore the trop
entirely. Ditto for the nesi'im in 34:19-28, where some sing it to a
chant that ifnores the trop, and combines two pesuqim into one.

GEK
today having recited qaddish for Omama's (paternal grandmother) fifty-
year jahrzeit, I being one of the very few descendants remaining to
observe the event.

[Zev Sero]

>> �does anyone here lein this Shira with that tune, or any special tune?
>>
>> And for those who don't (including me), why don't we?�

Since the tune for shirat hayam is only used for those pesukim that
contain Hashem's name, and since shirat hab'er has no such pesukim,
how would we tell whether the special tune is being used or not?
I can claim with a semi-straight face that I *do* use the tune, on
all the pesukim to which it applies!

--
Zev Sero The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name eventually run out of other people�s money
- Margaret Thatcher

[rabbiri...@gmail.com]

GEK
«Using a special tune for the shira in Beshalach is itself a
chiddush, and the general rule for a chiddush is that ein lo ela chiddusho. »

I posted a week ago about a dozen "special" cases.

One can argue aderbbah, the prevailing minhag IS to use special tunes, so why not these?

Of course Zev kinda answered the question about shirat Huqqat

Shalom

[MG]

Plenty of people use the special tune for certain pesukim without
Hashem's name, i.e. "V'hamayim lahem chomah" etc. You don't lain that
posuk with the special tune?
("Zeh Kayli V'Anvehu" arguably doesn't have Hashems' name either.)

On Jun 16, 5:17 pm, Zev Sero <z...@sero.name> wrote:
> >> does anyone here lein this Shira with that tune, or any special tune?
>
> >> And for those who don't (including me), why don't we?
>

> Since the tune for shirat hayam is only used for those pesukim that
> contain Hashem's name, and since shirat hab'er has no such pesukim,
> how would we tell whether the special tune is being used or not?
> I can claim with a semi-straight face that I *do* use the tune, on
> all the pesukim to which it applies!
>
> --
> Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you

> z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people s money
>                                                      - Margaret Thatcher

[rabbiri...@gmail.com]

GEK
«But the question should not be why don't we for Chukas and Haazinu, but why do we for Beshalach? Using a special tune for the shira in Beshalach is itself a chiddush, »

Tangentially I had never heard of a minhag to read 3rd Pereq of Eichah with special chant until I was in my thirties. But many do anyway

And I had never heard of repeating zecher/zeicher in Qi Teitze until about 4 years ago, but they do this in Teaneck.

Sh'ma Mina

A. Practices change all the time.

And

B. Lo ro'eenu [or lo shamanu] eino raya.

[marshall...@comcast.net]

There is also a tradition, which I learned from a chazzan some 20 or so years ago, to sing the 'Vayisu - Vayachanu' verses in Mattot-Masei to the same special tune reserved for several verses in Shirat HaYam.  I have never managed to do this, however, and I don't think I'm up to trying it this year either (nine columns are enough work by themselves).

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "leining" group.
To post to this group, send email to lei...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to leining+u...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/leining?hl=en.

[Giorgies E. Kepipesiom]

On Jun 16, 8:55 pm, rabbirichwol...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Sh'ma Mina
>
> A. Practices change all the time.
>
> And
>
> B. Lo ro'eenu [or lo shamanu] eino raya.

----------------------------------------------------------
Uncle Leib used to say that sometimes a proposition is so strange that
even ro'eenu [or shamanu] is no raya.

GEK

[Giorgies E. Kepipesiom]

On Jun 16, 11:28 pm, marshall_schwa...@comcast.net wrote:

> There is also a tradition, which I learned from a chazzan some 20 or so years ago, to sing the 'Vayisu - Vayachanu' verses in Mattot-Masei to the same special tune reserved for several verses in Shirat HaYam. I have never managed to do this, however, and I don't think I'm up to trying it this year either (nine columns are enough work by themselves).

----------------------------------------------
I have heard many sing these pesuqim with special tune, but it is not
the same as the Az Yashir. As I mentioned earlier, the Az Yashir tune
follows the trop and the pauses, it is only the melodies for the trops
that are modified. The masa'os tune is entirely divorced from the
trops, and combines pesuqim in pairs, completely ignoring the sof
pasuq in between each pair. As is also the case for the nesi'im in
34:19-28.

I have also heard baalei qeria (Hungarians or Chzechs I believe) who
sing a few pesuqim in Megillo with an elabourate tune entirely
ignoring the trop. Vaye'ehav hamelech es Estair comes to mind, as does
UMordechai yatza milifnei hamelech, and perhaps one or two others that
I do not recall.

To my mind these latter changes that ignore trop are more problematic
than the former, which merely change the melodies of the trops. If
that be a mesora, then so be it, for the trops themselves are no more
than mesora too. But if it is something recently invented, perhaps it
ought be done away with. Or at least, the majority of us who have not
received such a tradition should not seek to copy it. And as
traditions go, my own master and teacher passed on to me a stern
admonition not to deviate from the trop and the siluqim as printed.

GEK

[Zev Sero]

MG wrote:
> Plenty of people use the special tune for certain pesukim without
> Hashem's name, i.e. "V'hamayim lahem chomah" etc. You don't lain that
> posuk with the special tune?

That's not part of the shira. So it can be treated separately. *Before*
shirat hab'er, which pesukim would you sing? *Within* the shira we only
do the ones with a Name, of which there are none.

--
Zev Sero The trouble with socialism is that you

z...@sero.name eventually run out of other people�s money
- Margaret Thatcher

[Nehemiah Klein]

I have such a tradition both for the masaos and for the psukim in the megillah like the ones you mentioned and I know many other people with that mesorah.  How do you know that it is a recent invention, perhaps it goes back as early as the shira tune, I have no idea.  What Nesiim are you referring to?  The only other minhag I heard is in Behaaloscha with with the degalim.  If these minhagim, as far as I know are so widespread even if some on this list have not heard of it or don't have that tradition, we have no right to say that they ought to be done away with or that they are problematic.  There are many minhagim that may not make 100% sense yet we follow them anyway as part of our tradition of following our forefathers, you never know there may be a logical explanation somewhere.

[MG]

Come on Zev.
And if I told you this same person had a tradition to lein the pesukim
*before* shiras hab'er with that tune, that would be ok with you??
Now you need to answer why in fact we treat "vehamayim lahem choma"
"separately", being that it's "not in the shira". And you haven't
answered RWW's question about Ha'azinu.
Don't make up "rules" to support minhagim. The fact is we have a
tradition about which pesukim to be sung in and around Az Yashir, and
not the other pesukim.
I'm only asking if others have this minhag with regards to the B'er.
Not because I'm making it up, but because somebody who is an
experienced koreh told me he does it. Traditions aren't necessarily
based on logic.

To start calling for minhagim to be put down based on logic is
dangerous and goes against the dictum of "minhag yisroel Torah".
IMHO the same goes for the masaos, the nesiim, megillas esther, etc.
We have a kabalah of two sets of ta'amim on the Aseres Hadibros, one
of which violates the "tunes", including the sof pasukim, of the
other. So what?
If someone has a special tune that they received to lein any portion
of the Torah or Megillos, they should preserve it, period. And if you
don't have that tradition, don't disparage it, regardless of your
interpretation of the "rules".

[Art Werschulz]

Hi.

On Jun 16, 2010, at 11:28 PM, marshall...@comcast.net wrote:

> There is also a tradition, which I learned from a chazzan some 20 or so years ago, to sing the 'Vayisu - Vayachanu' verses in Mattot-Masei to the same special tune reserved for several verses in Shirat HaYam. I have never managed to do this, however, and I don't think I'm up to trying it this year either (nine columns are enough work by themselves).

This is mentioned in Jacobson; I think it's also in Binder, but I seem to have lost my copy. The trick here is to know where to start the shira tune, and where to stop.

Art Werschulz
207 Stoughton Avenue, Cranford NJ 07016-2838
(908) 272-1146

[Giorgies E. Kepipesiom]

On Jun 17, 3:04 am, Nehemiah Klein <klei...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I have such a tradition both for the masaos and for the psukim in the
> megillah like the ones you mentioned and I know many other people with that
> mesorah.  How do you know that it is a recent invention, perhaps it goes
> back as early as the shira tune, I have no idea.  What Nesiim are you
> referring to?  The only other minhag I heard is in Behaaloscha with with the
> degalim.  If these minhagim, as far as I know are so widespread even if some
> on this list have not heard of it or don't have that tradition, we have no
> right to say that they ought to be done away with or that they are
> problematic.  There are many minhagim that may not make 100% sense yet we
> follow them anyway as part of our tradition of following our forefathers,
> you never know there may be a logical explanation somewhere.

> -------------------------------------------
I do not "know" if these tunes are recent inventions. But I surmise
that they are more recent than the trops, else a) why did the
masoretes bother to write trops on these pesuqim if they are not to be
read according to trop; b) why are these tunes confined to certain
localities, and not used world-wide like the trops are?

If a kehillo has a genuine tradition, received from their own
ancestors, then you are right - we have no right to require them to
abandon the tradition. But the rest of us, who have no such
traditions, ought not copy these tunes that ignore the trop just
because others sing it and it sounds nice.

The nesiim tune I referred to is Mas'ei 34:19-28. The tune sounds much
like the Vayis'u-Vayachanu tune, and couples two pesuqim together
ignoring the siluq between them: 19-20 are coupled, as are 21-22, and
23-24, and 25-26, and 27-28.

GEK

[Nehemiah Klein]

My tradition is that when Matos and Masei are together (which is in the vast majority of years), I begin at what is written in the chumash as the last pasuk of the first aliyah of Masei when separate (vayisu me-Eilim vayachanu al Yam Suf), the tune involves pairs of psukim, I revert to regular tune when either the first or second in the series are longer and somewhat more descriptive that vayisu ... vayachanu, and then go back to shira tune when they resume vayisu ... vayachanu

[Nehemiah Klein]

Anyone else ever heard of the Nesiim referred to here?  I am curious.

GEK

[MG]

I think we all mean the pesukim of "v'al tze-vah" etc in beha'alotecha

> > leining+u...@googlegroups.com<leining%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com­>
> > .

> > For more options, visit this group at

> >http://groups.google.com/group/leining?hl=en.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon]

From: Art Werschulz <a...@comcast.net>

> This is mentioned in Jacobson; I think it's also in Binder, but I
> seem to have lost my copy.

What is "Binder"

Jeremy

[Giorgies E. Kepipesiom]

On Jun 17, 10:21 am, MG <markginsb...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> I think we all mean the pesukim of "v'al tze-vah" etc in beha'alotecha
>

No, I mean the nesi'im in mas'ei, sung to a tune quite similar to the
vayis'u-vayachanu tune, ignoring the trop, and pairing pesuqim into
couplets. I have heard some read "v'al tze-vah" etc in beha'alosecha
with a special tune, but that is similar to az yashir in that it
follows the trop and does not combine pesuqim, but merely changes the
melody of the trops.

GEK

[Chief Chacham]

It is not clear where the Shira begins or ends and whether the Shira is documented in the Torah at all.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "leining" group.
To post to this group, send email to lei...@googlegroups.com.

To unsubscribe from this group, send email to leining+u...@googlegroups.com.

[MG]

The way I have heard the "v'al tzevah" tune is just like to the
"masa'os" tune, where the sof pasuk is ignored.
Have never heard the neseim in mas'ei 34:19 lained with a special
tune. That is interesting.


On Jun 17, 11:17 am, "Giorgies E. Kepipesiom" <kepipes...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

[MG]

Can you please explain? Seems pretty clear where the shira begins and
ends

[Art Werschulz]

Hi.

On Jun 17, 2010, at 10:36 AM, Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon wrote:

> What is "Binder"

Abraham Binder, "Biblical Chant".

[Zev Sero]

Giorgies E. Kepipesiom wrote:

> I do not "know" if these tunes are recent inventions. But I surmise
> that they are more recent than the trops, else a) why did the
> masoretes bother to write trops on these pesuqim if they are not to be
> read according to trop

For the same reason that there's a taam tachton on the Aseret Hadibrot,
and that there's trop for parts of Tanach that are never read in public.
This is their "proper" trop, to be used in private, but in public they
get a different reading. Ditto for the nekudos: the word is really
"sirtzach", but in public it's pronounced "tirtzoch".

[Chaim Spielman]

Rabbi yehudah hachasid and Sefer zioni from r' mRNAchem zioni say that it is hallel hagadol. ( this is very contoversial) but apparently they were of the view that the Shira is not the words Eli bi'er enu lah.

Sent from my iPhone

[rabbiri...@gmail.com]

GEK
«a) why did the

masoretes bother to write trops on these pesuqim if they are not to be

read according to trop;»

Do you cantillate t'hillim with trope?

Trope is for parsing

Singing is for another purpose, which might included
A edifiying
B illustrating
C enhancing

Do you know that Roedelheim Machazorim omit trope on the 3 M'gilot for the 3 r'galim? Apparently Merely
Because they chant them quitely. I think this is a big error of omission

As I've kvetched to Koren and others
IMHO every Passuq should have its trope / n'ginot - whether chanted or not!

We don't lein v'shamru in hazarat hashatz either [though I often do and I do "lain" the
Qorban Mussaph for Shabbat R"Ch and YT]

Also what about p'suqqim in malchuyot zichronot and shofrot?

Many machzorim do have the trope

[Paul Summer]

I was taught to lein the journeys in Masei in triples, with a different tune to the Shira. It is a Yekke minhag I believe.

Regards

Paul

[rabbiri...@gmail.com]

«I was taught to lein the journeys in Masei in triples, with a different tune to the Shira. It is a Yekke minhag I believe.
Regards
Paul»

FWIW When I learned then at Belz School, Avery Newmark came into class and demonstrated the "Yekke" triplet version - which I think he got from the "Jewish Center"

[Michael Poppers]

As per "[leining] Digest for lei...@googlegroups.com - 5 Messages in 2 Topics," Paul Summer <paulj...@googlemail.com> wrote at Jun 17 10:57PM +0100:

> I was taught to lein the journeys in Masei in triples, with a different tune to the Shira. It is a Yekke minhag I believe. <

Yes, the [Yekke] trop I use for the masa'os is what people describe the way Paul described it. As mentioned previously, Benno Weis a'h' can be heard leining the masa'os (and many other parashiyos :)) via the Dartmouth Jewish Sound Archive (free registration; http://www.dartmouth.edu/~djsa/ ).

A gut'n Shabbes/Shabbas Shalom
and all the best from
--Michael Poppers via RIM pager