Haftorah chazon

[Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon]

For those who use eicha trop in this week's haftorah, which pesukim do you use it for?

Jeremy

[avraham and ruth walfish]

The only pesukim for which I don't use Eichah trop are: the first, introductory pasuk; 18-19 (lekhu na ve-nivakhhah... tuv ha'aretz tokheilu); and the last 4 pesukim (from: lakhen ne'um ha-adon). Btw, this is a good example of trop as music, not only punctuation. My wife used to use a recording of this reading as a teaching tool to help her Tanakh students focus on the content and mood shifts in this chapter.

On Thu, Jul 15, 2010 at 6:10 AM, Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon <jeremy...@nyu.edu> wrote:

For those who use eicha trop in this week's haftorah, which pesukim do you use it for?

Jeremy

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[JECg...@aol.com]

I do the same, and, at least in my personal experience, it is by far the most common (but not the only) minhag.

[rabbiri...@gmail.com]

For those who use eicha trop in this week's haftorah, which pesukim do you use it for?

Jeremy »

I use eicha trope from start until

"Rachazu hizakkoo.."
[Total 4 verses]

Then Resume Eicha at
"V'Im t'ma'anu"

Until last passuq when I revert to haftara trope

I've heard some do first Passuq viz. Hazzon to Haftarah melody..

Shalom
RRW



And
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

[Meir BenChayim]

     The same as RRW for the start, Rachatzu and V'im tma'anu; but revert to haftara trop for the final four pesukim, beginning with "Lachein ne'um haAdon."
 
Meir
 
> To: lei...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: [leining] Haftorah chazon
> From: rabbiri...@gmail.com
> Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 18:22:50 +0000

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[rabbiri...@gmail.com]

Meir:
«but revert to haftara trop for the final four pesukim, beginning with 
"Lachein ne'um haAdon." 
Meir»

Whoops I meant to write last 2. But last 4 makes sense.

RRW

[Shel Schiffman]

Jacobson specifies haftarah mode for 1, 16-19 (rather than 18-19) and
24-27. I agree that the minhag with 18-19 is more widely practiced,
but it seems to me Jacobson's provides a better match of mode to
content.

Shel Schiffman.

[Giorgies E. Kepipesiom]

On Jul 15, 12:10 am, Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon <jeremy.si...@nyu.edu>
wrote:

> For those who use eicha trop in this week's haftorah, which pesukim do you use it for?
>

Since you addressed this to "those who use eicha trop...", I suppose I
should not reply. But then, we would not get a sense of how many do
not use Eicha trop at all for the haftara. Ani haqattan count myself
among those who use the regular haftara trop for this haftara (on the
reare occasion when I am honoured with maftir on this Shabbas). Nor
for pasuq 11 eicha at the beginning of the sidra. Nor for haftara on 9
Av morning (which honour I often do receive).

Regarding Chapt. 3 of Eicha, in our congregation using the regular
trop or the special tune is at the option of the baal qeria.

GEK
wishing good Shabbas, and with God's help, good yom tov.

[rabbiri...@gmail.com]

GEK:
«Nor for haftara on 9
Av morning (which honour I often do receive).»

I get why no Eicha trope on Shabbat

Why no Eicha Trop here? Is this a Yekkisher Minhag or something?

GS

[MG]

I've seen that was well, no Eicha Trup for the Haftorah on Tisha B'Av.
The reason why makes sense...why should we use the Eicha Trup for
Neviim? Neviim has it's own tune. Do we lein the Torah reading with
Eicha Trup?

[rabbiri...@gmail.com]

«Do we lein the Torah reading with
Eicha Trup?»

On 9 av in the morning a special tune IS used at Breuers'

And while Eicha is not n'viim it is written by Yirmeyhu - author of chapter 9 viz. Rhe haftara of 9 Av Morning

So I don't quite follow the proof here

Shabbat Shalom
Rrw

Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

[MG]

You had asked why there is no Eicha trup for the Haftarah, according
to some. I'm not giving you a "proof", just logic to defend a minhag.
What does Eicha have to do with a Haftorah? Eicha is Eicha, the
Haftarah is the haftarah. Quite the opposite, I think - you need a
reason to NOT lein the usual haftarah tune.

> For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/leining?hl=en.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Giorgies E. Kepipesiom]

On Jul 16, 5:54 pm, rabbirichwol...@gmail.com wrote:

> GEK:
> «Nor for haftara on 9
> Av morning (which honour I often do receive).»
>
> I get why no Eicha trope on Shabbat
>
> Why no Eicha Trop here?  Is this a Yekkisher Minhag or something?

I don't know. It is not done at our shule, nor at one where I used to
pray form some number of years. Neither of them a yekkisher shule. My
guess would be that changing the trop of a haftara is a chiddush, and
absent a specific positive tradition to make this chiddush, we default
to the regular trop. I do know that I was taught to do certain pesuqim
of Estair with Aicho trop, but for some reason, I never successfully
learnt to do the regular Estair trop correctly, and so i have never
read this scroll in public.

GEK
wishing good week and good yom tov

[Nehemiah Klein]

I did 17-19 because that is what I recall was always done, and someone came over to me (a talmid chacham who understands these issues) and told me that he recalled the minhag to be 16-19.

[AMK Judaica]

i recall a chassidish friend making fun of misnagdim for turning the shabbat before 9 av into a sad day, e.g., by using the eicha tune for haftarah.
 
i have no idea if indeed this is more of a misnagdish minhag, but the point is that apparently there is a view that it is wrong to use the eicha tune because it detracts from the simcha of shabbat
 
have an easy fast,
ari kinsberg
 
> Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 15:59:00 -0700

> Subject: [leining] Re: Haftorah chazon

> From: markgi...@yahoo.com
> To: lei...@googlegroups.com

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[rabbiri...@gmail.com]

Ari:

i have no idea if indeed this is more of a misnagdish minhag,»

Probably so

«but the point is that apparently there is a view that it is wrong to use the eicha tune because it detracts from the simcha of shabbat 
have an easy fast,
ari kinsberg »

Look the Rema says to wear Bigdei Hol on Hazzon [except to change the shirt]

Also there is the Yekkishe tradition to recite Av harachamim but twice a year before Shavuot and on Hazzon

Ask you hassidishe friend

Do they way Yizkor on YT?

Do they say av harachamim on Shabbat? How about Keil Malei Rachamim? When they say Keil Malei do they use a joyful tune?


Does he say Umipnei Hateinu on YT Mussaph?

What tune do they use for bnei Beitcha k'vatchilah?

Or how about connections between Seder Night and TIsha b'av? Any roasted or hardboiled egg to commemorate the Hagigah?

What about the 4 p'suqqim in Esther sung to Eichah? Doe they do that? Does it not detract from Simchat Purim?

How about the Talmud's 3 d'puranitta? Why have a sad Haftara regardless of the melody?

-------------------------

The simplest approach IMHO re: the eicha melody on shabbat Hazzon is that it is "seasonal". It's not to mourn on Shabbat per se, rather it's to employ tisha B'av motifs

So we're not exactly mourning on Shabbat, more anouncing via melody that this is the tisha b'av season...

This manifests on Shabbat m'vorchim when the upcoming holiday's tune is used


Also Yekkes will switch to a Yamim Noraim motif starting on Nachamu [for cetain tefillot] as a harbinger of the upcoming season.

Easy Fast

[Art Werschulz]

HI.

On Jul 18, 2010, at 5:49 PM, RabbiRi...@gmail.com wrote:

> Also Yekkes will switch to a Yamim Noraim motif starting on Nachamu [for cetain tefillot] as a harbinger of the upcoming season.

For which particular sections of the davvening? Shaharit? Mussaf?

Art Werschulz (8-{)} "Metaphors be with you." -- bumper sticker
GCS/M (GAT): d? -p+ c++ l u+(-) e--- m* s n+ h f g+ w+ t++ r- y?
Internet: agw STRUDEL comcast.net

[Chaim Spielman]

I am aware thAt the chssidim do not use the niggun of aicha but the reasoning the wY it wad explained to me is a bit different. That all the words of the nevi'im can be interpreted for the good. So read it with the regular tune to accentuate the positive. 

Even the חסידים have the minhag to read the pasuk איכה אשא לבדי with the איכה ניגון. (perhaps not all chssidim).

Some have the minhag to sing לכה דודי with the ניגון of אלי ציון. This IMHO makes no sense. Aside from the issue of ruining the shabbos, it runs contrary to the song which is all about the גאולה. Wouldn't it make more sense to just omit singing לכה דודי?

Sent from my iPhone

[AMK Judaica]

yes, lecha dodi was another thing he mentioned, as was not singing zemirot during meals
 
kol tuv,
ari kinsberg
 

---

From: chaims...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [leining] Re: Haftorah chazon
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 18:02:20 -0400
To: lei...@googlegroups.com

 

Some have the minhag to sing לכה דודי with the ניגון of אלי ציון.

Sent from my iPhone

[rabbiri...@gmail.com]

> Also Yekkes will switch to a Yamim Noraim motif starting on Nachamu [for cetain tefillot] as a harbinger of the upcoming season.

For which particular sections of the davvening? Shaharit? Mussaf?»

I never did this much

IIRC Breuer ends Friday Night Qaddish before amidah with a YN motif

Plus they trot out UN melodies for Shabbat Mussaph Qaddish Titqabal

Once or twice I used the YN m'chalkeil Hayyim piece during the Shabbat Mussaph before s'lichot. Our choir director Mr. Fischel A"H had a fit. But I saw this as an extension of the theme of anouncing upcoming occasions

Just as Shabbat Zachor announces Purim etc.

The only controversial element really is the 3 weeks because it's mournful, but I simply understand this as part of an ongoing technique throughout the year.

[rabbiri...@gmail.com]

Chaim:
«Some have the minhag to sing לכה דודי with the ניגון of אלי ציון. This IMHO makes no sense. Aside from the issue of ruining the shabbos, it runs contrary to the song which is all about the גאולה. Wouldn't it make more sense to just omit singing לכה דודי?‬»


-------------------------

Same answer
The simplest approach IMHO re: the eicha melody on shabbat Hazzon is that it is "seasonal". It's not to mourn on Shabbat per se, rather it's to employ tisha B'av motifsSo we're not exactly mourning on Shabbat, more anouncing via melody that this is the tisha b'av season..»

Yekkes have At least TWO motifs

Bein hamtzarim for first 2 weeks

Hazzon = Eli Tziyon

But the melody morphs at Hitoreri - at least in Japhet

But lecha dodi is easy
The Talmud already mandates 3 d-purannita on Shabbat

L'cha Dodi preceds Shabbat anyway.

And EG - on the 10th of Tevet - one fasts after l'cha dodi until tzeit

Caveat: Many Hassidim daven SO LATE in the evening that they may have a bigger problem with L'cha Dodi than others who daven earlier.

EZ Fast

[Chaim Spielman]

I heard a שליח ציבור sing it and I got sick to the stomach. I walked out. The קה׳ת is different. The words of the נביאים are read to remind us to do תשובה. I heard a מגיד משרים explain this with a משל. There was a person who smuggled diamonds across a border. What better way to get this across then to bring it in a coffin? So he figured he won't be stopped. But he was. The border guards insisted that he open the coffin. He tried convincing the guard that for the respect of the dead to allow him thru but the guard wouldn't hear of it. Once arrested, of course he was all upset and in tears. When the security guard was asked how he new that this guy was a smuggler not escorting the dead - he answered when you don't cry before, you cry later.

Sent from my iPhone

[Aryeh Moshen]

This is a Minhag that goes back at least 500 years, perhaps longer.  Even if you
disagree, and there is plenty of room to disagree, one should not dismiss an old
Minhag or get sick to your stomach.   

----- Original Message ----
From: Chaim Spielman <chaims...@yahoo.com>
To: "lei...@googlegroups.com" <lei...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sun, July 18, 2010 7:56:02 PM
Subject: Re: [leining] Re: Haftorah chazon

[rabbiri...@gmail.com]

I heard a שליח ציבור sing it and I got sick to the stomach. I walked out. The קה׳ת is different. The words of the נביאים are read to remind us to do תשובה.»

And I used to debate a colleague in Washington Heights who insisted that the melody of Eli Tziyyon
Was HOPEFUL!

I disagreed

At any rate I once sang Nowakovsky's l'cha dodi on shabbos and one leader of my shul was in tears and said never sing it again except maybe on Hazzon

But it's a lovely piece to those who know it

To each his own I guess

[Zev Sero]

rabbiri...@gmail.com wrote:

> And I used to debate a colleague in Washington Heights who insisted
> that the melody of Eli Tziyyon Was HOPEFUL!
> I disagreed

It depends which tune you have. The standard Litvishe tune is mournful.
But I've heard a tune from R Jonathan Baker, which he heard at Lincoln
Square, and if that's the Yekker tune then it seems positively cheerful!

--
Zev Sero The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name eventually run out of other people’s money
- Margaret Thatcher

[Giorgies E. Kepipesiom]

On Jul 18, 8:42 pm, Zev Sero <z...@sero.name> wrote:

> rabbirichwol...@gmail.com wrote:
> > And I used to debate a colleague in Washington Heights who insisted
> > that the melody of Eli Tziyyon Was HOPEFUL!
> > I disagreed
>
> It depends which tune you have.  The standard Litvishe tune is mournful.
> But I've heard a tune from R Jonathan Baker, which he heard at Lincoln
> Square, and if that's the Yekker tune then it seems positively cheerful!

Didn't someone here recently point out that the usual Eli Tziyyon tune
is also used in the shalosh regalim liturgy at "benei veisecha
kevatechilla..." and some other passages?

GEK

[Zev Sero]

That's the Litvisher tune. The Yekker tune (if that is indeed the one
I heard) sounds nothing like that.

--
Zev Sero The trouble with socialism is that you

z...@sero.name eventually run out of other people�s money
- Margaret Thatcher

[Jonathan Baker]

On Sun, Jul 18, 2010 at 8:04 PM, Aryeh Moshen <aryeh...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> This is a Minhag that goes back at least 500 years, perhaps longer.  Even if you
> disagree, and there is plenty of room to disagree, one should not dismiss an old
> Minhag or get sick to your stomach.

> From: Chaim Spielman <chaims...@yahoo.com>
> I heard a שליח ציבור sing it and I got sick to the stomach. I walked out.

Maybe it depends which variant of Ali Tzion he heard? I could see
getting "sick to the stomach" over the Eastern European variant, which
is truly mournful and weepy, being rather freeform with the rhythm,
but the Western European version is more majestic and metric, and
really does fit Lecha Dodi.

The usual excuse I've heard is that Lecha Dodi is before Mizmor Shir
Leyom Hashabbat, so it's not really Shabbat yet. Of course, that
doesn't work for Eicha trop for haftarat Hazon.

--
jon baker         |   blog: http://thanbook.blogspot.com
tha...@gmail.com  | web: http://www.panix.com/~jjbaker

[Jonathan Baker]

On Sun, Jul 18, 2010 at 9:45 PM, Zev Sero <z...@sero.name> wrote:
> Giorgies E. Kepipesiom wrote:
>> On Jul 18, 8:42 pm, Zev Sero <z...@sero.name> wrote:
>>> rabbirichwol...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>>>> And I used to debate a colleague in Washington Heights who insisted
>>>> that the melody of Eli Tziyyon Was HOPEFUL!

>>> It depends which tune you have.  The standard Litvishe tune is mournful.

>>> But I've heard a tune from R Jonathan Baker, which he heard at Lincoln
>>> Square, and if that's the Yekker tune then it seems positively cheerful!

Cantor Goffin on a recent tape notes that Ali Tzion as done at LSS is
the Yekkish tune. We also use it at Yavneh. It does seem a bit
incongruous with the words.

>> Didn't someone here recently point out that the usual Eli Tziyyon tune
>> is also used in the shalosh regalim liturgy at "benei veisecha
>> kevatechilla..." and some other passages?

> That's the Litvisher tune.  The Yekker tune (if that is indeed the one
> I heard) sounds nothing like that.

It's the same tune, according to Cantor Goffin, and it really is if
you listen to it. The "Litvisher" tune is almost the same as R' Hecht
(Lubavitcher) uses at CBJ, AFAICT. You can hear R' Soloveitchik using
it on the tapes on 613.org As I said, Eastern Europe vs. Western
Europe variants.

http://www.613.org/rav/ravtish7852655.ram