Correcting the Mapik Hey

[Michael Gutmann]

I'm sure this has been discussed by the old-timers here before, but as
a newbie, I wouldn't know for certain.

Someone commented to me that the leining in his local youth minyan
this past week was terrible and that, among other things, the person
leining the first aliyah went through the entire parsha of nedarim
without pronouncing a single mapik. I told him that I was under the
impression that such mistakes do not need to be corrected. And then
he got really upset because he couldn't tell which "isha" was which.

So, who's right?

-Michael-

[rabbiri...@gmail.com]

Michael G:
«Someone commented to me that the leining in his local youth minyan

this past week was terrible and that, among other things, the person
leining the first aliyah went through the entire parsha of nedarim without pronouncing a single mapik. I told him that I was under the
impression that such mistakes do not need to be corrected. And then he got really upset because he couldn't tell which "isha" was which.

So, who's right?

-Michael-»

It's reall the call of the local Rav. At a youth Minyan they're going to be as lenient as possible.

Some context is needed. Are they ever makpid on mappiq heih? Or do they generally ignore them?
Etc.

Shalom
RRW

Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

[MG]

You're both right.
At a youth minyan, I would certainly never publicly correct for a
mapik heh. These kids need comfidence more than anything else, and
there are issues of malbin pnei chaveiro. If the koreh didn't get one
mapik heh right, he certainly was never taught correctly and is likely
utterly unaware of the difference. Have you ever tried to correct
someone on a mapik heh who didn't know the difference? There's almost
no way to do that on the spot without creating a big tircha
dtziburah. Add to the mix a roomful of people who don't know the
difference and all you'll get is a chorus of "He said it!"

On the bright side, he lained "Vayikra lah Novach B'shmo" correctly.

Just pull the koreh aside after davening and explain the difference.
There's always next year.

[rabbiri...@gmail.com]

MG
«Just pull the koreh aside after davening and explain the difference.»

I would add Make it a POINT to explain the mapiq Hey :-)

Irrepressable even durng the nine days

[Sammy Noe]

Hi MIchael   So far as I'm concerned this is an error, as it completely changes p'shat from "her husband" to "a woman".   I had to speak to someone last week, and this time he was polite: I told him that the "yod" made the translation "her husband", and that's when the mappik is included.   Kind regards   Sammy --- On Mon, 12/7/10, Michael Gutmann <mjgu...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[Nehemiah Klein]

The "yod" is one of the many travesties of modern Israeli Hebrew that we in Israel suffer with - they spell isha (woman) with a yod which really means "her husband".  If you lived here you would flip at all the nikud mistakes in signs and all the liberties of improper spelling as if it made no difference.

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[Shields, Meyer (Baltimore)]

The question (I think) is whether this constitutes an error if the congregation (or minyan, if we’re discussing teens) generally ignores the distinctions between mappik and non-mappik heh, and between a chirik with and without a yod.

 

Meyer Shields, FCAS

Principal, Equity Research

Stifel, Nicolaus and Company, Incorporated

One South Street, 16th Floor

Baltimore, MD 21202

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(F) 443-224-1392

(M) 443-610-9477

mshi...@stifel.com

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[Joshua Wise]

Sammy-
All are in agreement that it is a mistake. The question is whether the leining should be halted for it.
Since it is a teen minyan, the idea was presented to focus on building confidence in future BK's and waiting until after leining to give a lesson on the mapik.

Additionally, it was noted in a prior thread that some poskim rule that in all cases this is not a "correctable" mistake.

Josh

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[Meir BenChayim]

     It is indeed an error, but it may not require correction.  If the majority of a kahal has lost the ability to distinguish between sounds, we do not consider it an error.  When we read "ve'avadeta et Hashem Elokecha," we are actually saying "and you shall lose etc.," because we are reading the ayin as an alef, yet since as a group we have lost the distinction, we do not require repeating.  Similarly with chet-chaf.  I would assume that the congregation in the teen minyan has never learned the difference between the mappik hei and the eim keria, just as most of us have never learned the distinction between alef and ayin.  Repeating may therefore not necessarily be called for. And while it will certainly bother the individual who _does_ distinguish, so does reading the ayin as an alef bother the one who does distinguish between them.
 
Meir
 

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Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 11:51:21 +0000
From: leini...@yahoo.co.uk
Subject: Re: [leining] Correcting the Mapik Hey
To: lei...@googlegroups.com

To unsubscribe from this group, send email to leining+u...@googlegroups.com.

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[Sammy Noe]

I don't have to live in Israel to flip: I'm inundated here in blighty, whenever I hear an Israeli/Ivrit speaker.   Sorrowfully   Sammy --- On Wed, 14/7/10, Nehemiah Klein <kle...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon]

In the hebrew enrichment room of my daughter's day school, among other travesties, is a printed posted with the word kittah spelled without a dagesh in the tav (and yes, they are otherwise including degashim).

Jeremy

----- Original Message -----
From: Nehemiah Klein <kle...@gmail.com>
Date: Wednesday, July 14, 2010 8:06 am
Subject: Re: [leining] Correcting the Mapik Hey
To: lei...@googlegroups.com

> The "yod" is one of the many travesties of modern Israeli Hebrew that
> we in
> Israel suffer with - they spell isha (woman) with a yod which really
> means
> "her husband". If you lived here you would flip at all the nikud mistakes
> in signs and all the liberties of improper spelling as if it made no
> difference.
>
> On Wed, Jul 14, 2010 at 2:51 PM, Sammy Noe <leini...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > Hi MIchael
> >
> > So far as I'm concerned this is an error, as it completely changes
> p'shat
> > from "her husband" to "a woman".
> >
> > I had to speak to someone last week, and this time he was polite: I
> told
> > him that the "yod" made the translation "her husband", and that's
> when the
> > mappik is included.
> >
> > Kind regards
> >
> > Sammy
> >

> > leining+u...@googlegroups.com<leining%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>

[Nehemiah Klein]

I assume they had to put the yud after the kaf, how could you be without an extra yud.

[Sammy Noe]

Hi Meyer   a) I don't think it's fair to put the onus on people who little, and care less;   b) I don't think any sentient person speaks in accordance with what he thinks is the standard of English they purvey, unless he's satirical; one tries to be as exact and accurate as possible, and it's irrelevant if the auditor does or does not appreciate, or even perceive, the effort.   Regards   Sammy --- On Wed, 14/7/10, Shields, Meyer (Baltimore) <mshi...@stifel.com> wrote:

From: Shields, Meyer (Baltimore) <mshi...@stifel.com> Subject: RE: [leining] Correcting the Mapik Hey To: lei...@googlegroups.com

[Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon]

They did indeed, and I'm sure that's what mislead them. But modern hebrew othrography has no bearing on the dagesh in the tav.

Jeremy

> > <leining%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com<leining%252Buns...@googlegroups.com>

[Sammy Noe]

I have never stopped anybody in mid-lein for over twenty years, so, to me, it's a correctable error to be discussed afterwards.   When it comes to youth minyonim, I've not attended one for decades, but I was a gabbay in my last school year, and the amount of rubbish spewed out by visiting "men" defied belief; according to you, things have changed dramatically for the better.   Regards   Sammy --- On Wed, 14/7/10, Joshua Wise <shw...@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Joshua Wise <shw...@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [leining] Correcting the Mapik Hey To: lei...@googlegroups.com

[Shields, Meyer (Baltimore)]

Sammy:

 

a)       Being someone who knows little myself, I’m always happy to shift all onuses elsewhere. 

b)      I don’t understand what you mean here (and I read it four times).  One should try to be as exact as possible, but I was asking whether colloquial mispronunciation precludes interpretive error.

[Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon]

For those who _would_ correct mapik heh mistakes, does anyone think that adding a mapik to "lah" at the end of masei, where the mesorah removes it, would require correction?

Jeremy

[Sammy Noe]

I think if just a little care is taken the "yod", together with the "mappik", will fully indicate the correct meaning - or maybe the mappik alone.   Insofar as the "same sounding letters" are concerned no amount of effort, care and practise will enable these letters to be sounded differently: we were born to pronounce the "samech, sin and sof" the same way, and that applies also to the others.   If we were born Sephardi that would be another matter.   Regards   Sammy --- On Wed, 14/7/10, Meir BenChayim <mei...@hotmail.com> wrote:

[Sammy Noe]

Meyer   What I meant in b) was that people genrally try to speak as well as they can, without recourse to the standard of the people they're speaking to/with.   So, although I know that my "oilem" in shul couldn't care two bits if I pronounce anything correctly, I do it because it's correct.   A favourite singer of mine, called Lena Martell, used to come on stage and sing her heart out in accordance with her ability, not to reflect her audience's standards: and was she superb!   And her accuracy: I went backstage once, and she saw my kupple; Hava Nagila was in her list that year - though not that evening -  and she asked me if she'd pronunced certain words correctly, and would not let my wife and I go until she'd perfected it.

Meyer Shields, FCAS Principal, Equity Research

Baltimore, MD 21202 (V) 443-224-1331 (F) 443-224-1392 (M) 443-610-9477 mshi...@stifel.com

Sammy --- On Wed, 14/7/10, Shields, Meyer ( Baltimore ) <mshi...@stifel.com> wrote:

[Sammy Noe]

I hope I'm not preempting RRW with this, but isn't it now maspik with the mappik?! --- On Wed, 14/7/10, Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon <jeremy...@nyu.edu> wrote:

From: Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon <jeremy...@nyu.edu> Subject: Re: RE: [leining] Correcting the Mapik Hey To: lei...@googlegroups.com

[Zev Sero]

According to R Moshe Hadarshan, yes, because the mappik was removed
precisely so that the word should sound like "not".

--
Zev Sero The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name eventually run out of other people�s money
- Margaret Thatcher

[rabbiri...@gmail.com]

Jeremy
«In the hebrew enrichment room of my daughter's day school, among other travesties, is a printed posted with the word kittah spelled without a dagesh in the tav (and yes, they are otherwise including degashim).

Jeremy »

I subbed at a local day school at the cutting edge of Zionistic Modern Orthodoxy

On the class board was a sentence in hebrew with 11 errors - mostly in niqqud - resmbling the one above!

No wonder our children "can't tell Hebrew from French!"

To think we've "invested" about $1000,00 in such "mediocrity" has me fuming and ranting on the internet!

I would expect them to know at LEAST as much as the Late R Moredchai Breuer.

OK I'm off my soap-box now

Where do I get my refund?

Shalom

[Meir BenChayim]

     I agree with you about the ayin and chet.  Ashkenazim are physically incapable of pronouncing them as the sefaradim do.
 
     The sof, though, is a different story.  We _do_ know how to make the sound which is apparently the correct one, and it's not the Sefaradi tav, which is identical in its degusha and refuya forms.  We could pronounce it th, as in think, a sound which is quite natural to us.  My theory of how tav refuya became a sof is that it was a result of being unable to pronounce th.  Listen to a German with a heavy accent: he doesn't say, e.g., "I am thirsty."  He says "I am sirsty." There is no reason why we can't be machazir atara leyoshna.
 
Meir  

---

Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 14:36:37 +0000
From: leini...@yahoo.co.uk

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[Sammy Noe]

RRW   I'm ranting and raving every time I go into one of my locality's frum elementary schools: everywhere I go (I don't get slandered nor libelled) I see beautiful, frum posters, all written in wonderful Hebrew, all from Chumash or daily Siddur, and every one of them utterly inaccurately pointed.   I don't ask for much, just some accuracy...........after all, these kids' teachers, who put them up, will reasonably ask for accuracy from their kids in the classroom.   Regards   Sammy --- On Wed, 14/7/10, rabbiri...@gmail.com <rabbiri...@gmail.com> wrote:

From: rabbiri...@gmail.com <rabbiri...@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [leining] Correcting the Mapik Hey

[avraham and ruth walfish]

The spelling of isha (woman) with a yod has been approved by the Academy of Hebrew Language, the High Court of contemporary Hebrew usage, comprising the leading scholars of Hebrew language in Israel. This is part of their attempt to standardize and simplify writing conventions. Whether or not you agree with or like their decision, it has been carefully weighed and considered by people who know and love the language, so it is hardly a "travesty" and should not be classified with "nikud mistakes" and "liberties of improper spelling".

Avie

[Sammy Noe]

Okay Meir, but how about the "vov" and "veis"; the "kuf" and "kof"; and "samech" and "sin", as I said before.   These we cannot change, until "tayku" time, probably; but the "chirik godoil", the "yod" and the "mappik" - all three are there and all make their individual presence significant, and all ignored, when. with just a sliver of effort.....................................

[MG]

> Okay Meir, but how about the "vov" and "veis"; the "kuf" and "kof"; and "samech" and "sin", as I said before.

We should be able to correct vav vs. veis. The vav should be just a
"w" sound. Again, Germans don't have a "w" in their launguage and
that's how vav became a "v".
R' Saadya Gaon writes that there is no difference between Samech and
Sin, according to anyone. That should be obvious from the multiple
times a samech is substututed for sin in the liturgy

Kaf vs. Quf, I would agree it might be physically impossible for
Ashkenazim to change.

Let's not forget Daled and Gimel both without a dagesh that Ashkenazim
certainly don't do correctly but can theoretically be changed.

Reb Yaakov Kaminetsky would say the Daled of Echad the proper way when
he said Krias Shema, as the "th" in "the", which is obvious from the
Gemarah that says one must be maarich in the Daled.

[Sammy Noe]

The Academy has merely given up on a King Canute exercise: it knows it cannot influence a change back to the original, so it has caved in.   But the real cognoscenti - people like us - won't go for it, and will still pronounce and use words properly.   Nehemiah's descriptions are correct and accurate, if a little soft.   Regards   Sammy --- On Wed, 14/7/10, avraham and ruth walfish <rawa...@gmail.com> wrote:

From: avraham and ruth walfish <rawa...@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [leining] Correcting the Mapik Hey To: lei...@googlegroups.com

[rabbiri...@gmail.com]

as the "th" in "the",

Or simply DH

Think
Teeth - Th
Then
Teethe - Dh

E-hadh

Teimanim do this
S'phardim must have as per M'chabeir by stretching out the daleth as described in SA..

[MG]

Are we not saying the same thing?
"Teethe" and "the" have the same "th" sound.

[Zev Sero]

rabbiri...@gmail.com wrote:

> S'phardim must have as per M'chabeir by stretching out the daleth as described in SA..

We know how medieval Spanish Jews pronounced "echadhhhh", because
R Yehuda Halevi compared the buzzing of a bee to this sound.

[rabbiri...@gmail.com]

Are we not saying the same thing?

"Teethe" and "the" have the same "th" sound.»

Precisely the same
We're in violent agreement!


I'm merely using the mashal I use when I teach

Teeth
Vs.
Teethe

Or

Hit
Vs.
Heat

Or
Foot
Vs.
Food

It's just a mnemonic to make the distinctions easy to remember a pedagogical technique
Namely
Keep all constants the same except the contrasting vowel or consonant

[Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon]

It is not true that ashkenazim cannot pronounce these letters. Anyone can learn. It just takes too much concentration. As for tav refuya, we can also do daled refuya, which is a hard the ("the"). Gimel is a bit harder, but, I find easier than chet or ayin (or kuf or tsadi for that matter).

Jeremy
----- Original Message -----

From: Meir BenChayim <mei...@hotmail.com>
Date: Wednesday, July 14, 2010 12:22 pm
Subject: RE: [leining] Correcting the Mapik Hey
To: lei...@googlegroups.com

>

> I agree with you about the ayin and chet. Ashkenazim are
> physically incapable of pronouncing them as the sefaradim do.
>
>
>
> The sof, though, is a different story. We _do_ know how to make
> the sound which is apparently the correct one, and it's not the
> Sefaradi tav, which is identical in its degusha and refuya forms. We
> could pronounce it th, as in think, a sound which is quite natural to
> us. My theory of how tav refuya became a sof is that it was a result
> of being unable to pronounce th. Listen to a German with a heavy
> accent: he doesn't say, e.g., "I am thirsty." He says "I am sirsty."
> There is no reason why we can't be machazir atara leyoshna.
>
>
>
> Meir
>
>

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[rabbiri...@gmail.com]

Jeremy:
«It is not true that ashkenazim cannot pronounce these letters. Anyone can learn. It just takes too much concentration.»

Maybe but I spent time with a Bukharin Jew who TRIED to coach me on his Ayyin and failed

There IS hope! Youngsters CAN be trained right the first time

I worked with a prospective Giyoret and taught her an ayyin to sound like the first n in man~ana
The first n in Onion

Why? Because dutch s'phardim have this Ayyin I heard it from the late chief rabbi pereira. So I taught her this ayyin because I COULD

I also taught her the Groany Heit but told her to keep it soft

The halacha tells us we should [preferably] distinguish

By inference we can safely assume that the distinctions were always subtle otherwise why warn us?

Halachically, imho any ayyin that is groany and is distinct from an aleph is better than NO ayyin at all.

But from feedback I'm told my ayyin is not quite there as an authentic s'phardi does it.

Nu we do our best. What more CAN we do but give it our best shot? And work on the youth to do better

[Michael P. Stein]

On 7/14/2010 12:21 PM, Meir BenChayim wrote:
>
> I agree with you about the ayin and chet. Ashkenazim are physically
> incapable of pronouncing them as the sefaradim do.

They are physically capable. It's just that they never
learned how in childhood, when humans just seem to pick up
their native tongue (whatever it may be), with all its phonemes
and the native accent. When trying to learn as an adult, it's
not the same learning process. Most people just produce the
sound from their native phoneme set that is closest to the
desired sound.

With an understanding of the physiology of speech, however,
it is possible to learn how to produce sounds that are not part
of one's mamaloshen. For example, I once taught a Turkish student
how to pronounce the English voiced "th" sound (as in "the") by
explaining in detail how to position the tongue and teeth and use
the voice. I suspect many who grew up with a difference
between ayin and alef could teach most if not all of us how to
produce it. If I can hear a native speaker to use as an example,
I'm usually pretty good at figuring out how to reproduce sounds.
For our purposes, though, even if we can learn how to make
a distinction between the ayin and the alef, there is the
question of whether we should deviate from the custom of
the tzibbur.

Returning to the subject, even though there is a meaning
difference between "isha" and "ishah," both Hebrew and other
languages have homonyms that we distinguish only through context
in spoken language - e.g., "lo". Often only one interpretation
makes sense. But even when it's technically ambiguous,
in that a second interpretation also makes sense, we seem
to be able to discern the correct choice in most cases.
At the beginning of Mattot, try changing every instance of
"her husband" to "[a] woman," and see whether it's not
immediately obvious that this can't be what the text is
saying.

One could make an argument that due to our ability to
resolve such ambiguities, the lack of the pronounced final
hey does not actually change the meaning, and should fall
into the category of non-correctible error (for those who
believe there is such a category) even in the adult
congregation. I certainly agree with other previous
posters that every possible leniency should be allowed to
a young reader during the public reading, and that nuances
such as mapik hey are better left to a private conversation
after the service. There is a lot of ignorance about
mapik hey, including me until a few years ago. In fact,
I know one excellent ba'al koreh who distinguishes mapik
hey, but was not aware until I mentioned it that a patach
under a mapik hey is patach genuvah, following the same
rule as it does under final chet (ruach instead of rucha).

[rabbiri...@gmail.com]

«the High Court of contemporary Hebrew usage, comprising the leading scholars of Hebrew language in Israel. »

I'm glad it's the High Court that can't spell!

I was afraid it might have been the ignorant that had foisted such mis-spellings upon us. What a relief!

EYE think I PHEAL beterrer now!

[Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon]

I had that Rashi in mind when I asked, but is R.M. Hadarshan adequate to justify a correction?

Jeremy
----- Original Message -----

From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>
Date: Wednesday, July 14, 2010 10:54 am
Subject: Re: [leining] Correcting the Mapik Hey

To: lei...@googlegroups.com

> z...@sero.name eventually run out of other people’s money
> - Margaret Thatcher
>

[rabbiri...@gmail.com]

I go into one of my locality's frum elementary schools: »

But this school is the yeshivah of flatbush wannabe using ivrit b'ivrit yadda yadda

And they still teach lousy!

I paid for my kids to come out with ivit b'ivrit and I'm now poor and ripped off to boot

I would have felt better paying half for a hassidic school to teach lousy ivrit

Or is that bloody poor ivrit? ;-)

RRW

Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

---

From: Sammy Noe <leini...@yahoo.co.uk>

Sender: lei...@googlegroups.com

Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 16:39:27 +0000 (GMT)

To: <lei...@googlegroups.com>

ReplyTo: lei...@googlegroups.com

To unsubscribe from this group, send email to leining+u...@googlegroups.com.

[MG]

I would tend to agree on this one. The drasha of "lah" without a
mapik heh is one thing, but it's hard to argue that the meaning
changes.
We would all agree that if a ba'al kriah said "lo" that he should be
corrected; "lo" is just a drasha, and not the plain meaning of the
posuk.
The fact remains that saying "lah" with a mapik doesn't change the
plain meaning of the words at all.

I would say the same thing for the word "ושערהּ" in Vayikra 13:4 which
is found without the mapik heh al pi the mesorah, but if one
pronounced the mapik it of course doesn't change the meaning. Even
though we find an explanation for the missing mapik (see Meshech
Chochma), it's hard to argue that this is correctable.




On Jul 14, 2:10 pm, Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon <jeremy.si...@nyu.edu>
wrote:

> >  For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/leining?hl=en.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Abby Israëls]

rabbiri...@gmail.com schreef:

> Why? Because dutch s'phardim have this Ayyin I heard it from the late chief rabbi pereira. So I taught her this ayyin because I COULD

You are right. In the Netherlands both Ashkenazim and Sefardim are used
to pronounce the ayin as "ngayin" with the "ng" as in thi/ng/ according
to an old rabbinical psak, in order to make a difference between aleph
and ayin. Notice that in Yiddish "Ya'acov" is "Ya/ng/kele". Anyhow, the
"ng" does not come from the throat, as it should be.
I myself use the Israeli pronunciation for leining, but I sing the
ngayin in Ashkenazic and Portugueese synagogue choirs.

Shalom,
Avi Isra�ls.

[rabbiri...@gmail.com]

MG
«I would tend to agree on this one. The drasha of "lah" without a
mapik heh is one thing, but it's hard to argue that the meaning changes.»

To restate MG pithily

We would correct for a change in P'shat but NOT correct for a change in D'rash.

Makes sense - in the di-avad case

[marshall...@comcast.net]

I agree that early training makes a difference.  The only ayin that I pronounce when leyning is at the start of the word 'Aza -- it's the only one I can manage to get out of my mouth without sounding like I'm choking.  [There's one this week in Devarim.]   And as for the patach genuvah on a mappik hey and how it is ignored, I recall the astonishment on the face of an outstanding ba'al kriah (and Rhodes scholar) when I told him about it.  He didn't believe me until I got the chazzan to confirm it. 

----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael P. Stein" <mst...@speakeasy.net>
To: lei...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2010 10:56:43 AM
Subject: Re: [leining] Correcting the Mapik Hey

[rabbiri...@gmail.com]

marshall...@comcast.net
«And as for the patach genuvah on a mappik hey and how it is ignored, I recall the astonishment on the face of an outstanding ba'al kriah (and Rhodes scholar) when I told him about it.  He didn't believe me until I got the chazzan to confirm it. -»

When he found out the truth. Did he go "AH"
Or
"AHA"?

[Meir BenChayim]

     If we follow the Teimanim, vov would be pronounced as w.  Kuf and kof, tet and tav, i agree, it's taiku.  Sin and samech may really be the same; witness the paytanim, who never interchanged other letters in their acrostics, but did use a sin for samech.
 
     As for the chirik, I am not convinced that one should differentiate between them.  Certainly, pre-Kimchi they weren't considered two distinct vowels.  And certainly in keriat haTorah, it may be a tenua gedola written chaseir, rather than a tenuah ketana, in a word such as tzitzit (the second chirik), or in the word "vehanesi'im" when it is written chaseir dechaseir.
 
Meir
 

---

Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 16:44:39 +0000

The New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with Hotmail. Get busy.

[Meir BenChayim]

     Interestingly, I recently learned that if a Ya'akov is called Yankel, it is written in a get as yod-ayin-kof-lamed; no nun, since the nun sound is only a consequence of trying to pronounce the ayin properly.

Meir 
 
> Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 20:23:25 +0200
> From: ai...@wxs.nl
> To: lei...@googlegroups.com

> Subject: Re: [leining] Correcting the Mapik Hey
>

> Avi IsraīŋŊls.

[avraham and ruth walfish]

WHAT A SENSE OF HUMOR!

Languages evolve, rabbotai. Medieval grammarians were scandalized by words in rabbinic Hebrew such as "litrom" (shudder! corruption of the biblical "leharim"), but - for example - highly unbiblical plene spelling, as well as rabbinic verb formations, were the norm in earlier Medieval manuscripts (until scribes began to be influenced by the grammarians who thought that only biblical grammatical rules were proper Hebrew). The Academy tries to balance their devotion to the traditional forms and rules of biblical and rabbinic Hebrew with the demands of maintaining Hebrew as a living language which demands - horrors! - dynamic interaction with how people actually speak (as happened with rabbinic Hebrew, as well as with different strata of biblical Hebrew).

Avie

--

[rabbiri...@gmail.com]

avraham and ruth walfish
«WHAT A SENSE OF HUMOR!Languages evolve, rabbotai. Medieval grammarians were scandalized by words in rabbinic Hebrew such as "litrom" (shudder! corruption of the biblical "leharim"), but - for example - highly unbiblical plene spelling, as well as rabbinic verb formations, were the norm in earlier Medieval manuscripts (until scribes began to be influenced by the grammarians who thought that only biblical grammatical rules were proper Hebrew).»

Reminds me of David Frye's take-off or impersonation of Richard Nixon

Frye as Nixon:
" I couldn't just stand by and watch our country go down the drain...

<Long pause>

So I jumped right in to do it myself!"

[Zev Sero]

I don't believe that there is any difference in pronunciation between
a chirik with a yud and without one. I know some people make such a
distinction, but I believe it to be completely artificial.

--
Zev Sero The trouble with socialism is that you

z...@sero.name eventually run out of other people�s money
- Margaret Thatcher

[rabbiri...@gmail.com]

Zev:
«I know some people make such a

distinction, but I believe it to be completely artificial.

--

Zev Sero»

FWIW a baal diqduq I know "Moshe" makes this distinction

I asked Moshe "what's your source?"

Moshe answered: "it's intuitively obvious"

And I used to think so too - but after Jeremy explained to me the Tiberian system, I see that there may indeed be nothing to it.

As of now, I can see ether way...

[avraham and ruth walfish]

I guess Hebraists such as Moshe Bar-Asher will just have to wait for you to come to Israel and explain to them how the language should operate.

Reminds me of David Frye's take-off or impersonation of Richard Nixon

Frye as Nixon:
" I couldn't just stand by and watch our country go down the drain...

<Long pause>

So I jumped right in to do it myself!"

Shalom
RRW

Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

[rabbiri...@gmail.com]

Avraham:
«I guess Hebraists such as Moshe Bar-Asher will just have to wait for you to come to Israel and explain to them how the language should operate.»

Don't be upset. I'm just satirizing the drie to cater to the lowest common denominator

Imagine if I went to my rabbi
"Rabbi fasting is too difficult"

Rabbi: "then don't bother we'll just repeal the law that says you should fast"

What kind or rabbi would say this?

So I ask our list, if a Leader were to reform orthography in order to dumb it down...

Many of us here mourn the loss of M'soarah or the Miqdash, or proper pronunciation
While others celebrate it! "Good riddance" they say.

To each his own..

[Aryeh Moshen]

Hear, hear.

Also, can we use the proper style for Rishonim?  Either "The Radak" or "Rabbi
Kimhi" instead of "Kimchi" as found on another post, not by Rabbi Wolpoe.

----- Original Message ----
From: "rabbiri...@gmail.com" <rabbiri...@gmail.com>
To: Leining <lei...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wed, July 14, 2010 4:41:31 PM
Subject: Re: [leining] Correcting the Mapik Hey

To each his own..

Shalom
RRW

--

[avraham and ruth walfish]

You're carricaturing, not satirizing, and if you think that the Academy is pandering to the lowest common denominator that reflects imperfect knowledge as to who they are and how they operate. Learn a little about them before you critique.

Halakha is not nearly as hidebound as you have presented it, and there are any number of halakhot and poskim responsive to changes in social reality, including "hulsha sheyarda la'olam" (stated, among other areas, in relation to fasting...) Some rules are faster than others...

What you call the "mesorah" or the "proper pronunciation" often freezes Hebrew at one point in time. Would you want to rewrite the Mishnah's "hamishah lo yitromu" to conform to the proper mesorah of grammar, i.e. "hamisha lo yarimu"? What about writing "kofin oto ad sheyomar rotzeh ani" properly - "kofefin oto ad sheyomar rotzeh ani"? etc., etc. Were Hazal "dumbing down" the language when they "violated the rules" and accepted these and other changes - that most likely originated in the demotic speech of the less learned segments of the society?

In between mourning the loss of older forms of Hebrew and saying "good riddance" there's plenty of room in the middle for those who try to maintain continuity with the traditional while keeping pace with changes that are unavoidable in a language spoken by millions of people. But I guess nuance isn't conducive to the satirical mentality.

 

 

 

[Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon]

FWIW, I agree.

Jeremy

----- Original Message -----
From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>

Date: Wednesday, July 14, 2010 4:32 pm
Subject: Re: [leining] Correcting the Mapik Hey

To: lei...@googlegroups.com

> z...@sero.name eventually run out of other people’s money
> - Margaret Thatcher
>

[Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon]

One important fact to remember is that modern hebrew is not biblical hebrew. (Indeed, there is a translation of tanach into modern hebrew). The grammar and vocabulary aren't the same, so there's no reason the orthography should be either.

Jeremy

----- Original Message -----
From: rabbiri...@gmail.com
Date: Wednesday, July 14, 2010 4:43 pm
Subject: Re: [leining] Correcting the Mapik Hey

To: Leining <lei...@googlegroups.com>

[Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon]

Presumably, it is intuitively obvious because tnuot gedolot should be longer than tnuot ketanot. And citing the tiberian system is not enough to discard this, because the entire distinction between TG and TK is from a non-Tiberian tradition. (That is to say, one might cite the Tiberian system as a reason not have any truck with the disticntion between TG and TK, but, once you accept that general distinction, I don't think tiberian has any relevance to the question of the chirik.) However, since those who distinguish between chirik malei and chaser generally do not distinguish between tzerei and segol (AIUI), this intuitive argument looses a lot of force.

Jeremy

----- Original Message -----
From: rabbiri...@gmail.com
Date: Wednesday, July 14, 2010 4:37 pm
Subject: Re: [leining] Correcting the Mapik Hey
To: Leining <lei...@googlegroups.com>

[rabbiri...@gmail.com]

and if you think that the Academy is pandering to the lowest common denominator that reflects imperfect knowledge as to who they are and how they operate. Learn a little about them»

Did you learn a little about me first before YOU ccritiqued ME :-)

If you did fine

If not I rest my case

Anyway thanx for the blog fodder I have planned a series on "dumbing down" of Judaism and I've got about 6 posts in mind so far

Shkoyach

And BTW who decided to rewrite Imber's ashkenazic hymn into ben yehudah form and then alter the words? Twice?

Do you realize that hatiqvah now is aweful because it was written with different words and meant to be sung to an ashkenazic meter?

And it's not even hatiqvah! It's
Tikvoseinu!

So much for progress

I can send a link to an al jolson recording of the original words with the original pronunciation.

Now is the Jolson slurring of tikvosheinu [shin instead of sin] also progess? Or just a result of some good scotch

[Sammy Noe]

The chirik with a yod may sound strange, but it is correct without being artificial.   I know that when I pronounce the word "tsisis" out loud in k'riyas sh'ma I get an interested group of people smiling because there is a "tzee" first syllable, and then "tzis" second syllable, and that sounds strange: artificial, no.   The word "n'si'im" is spelled 4 different ways in the Toiroh, the spelling may be artificial, as there may a specific d'rash emanating from any spelling that will have fewer than two yods, but the pronunciation isn't, as that's how the chirik with a yod is pronounced.   Regards   Sammy --- On Wed, 14/7/10, Zev Sero <z...@sero.name> wrote:

From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name> Subject: Re: [leining] Correcting the Mapik Hey

z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people’s money                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "leining" group. To post to this group, send email to lei...@googlegroups.com.

To unsubscribe from this group, send email to leining+unsub...@googlegroups.com.

[Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon]

I assume you're talking about Noah Feldman?

Jeremy

[Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon]

SOrry, that wasn't supposed to go to the whole list.

[rabbiri...@gmail.com]

One important fact to remember is that modern hebrew is not biblical hebrew. (Indeed, there is a translation of tanach into modern hebrew). The grammar and vocabulary aren't the same, so there's no reason the orthography should be either.

Jeremy »

Then why are good ashkenzim davening and laining with hard sav's?

Yes you have a point

Take this to extremes and soon

Israelis will not Be Jews

And its language also different!

Look I'm from West Hartford Ct. Who is its most famous native?

Noah Webster!

Why?

He reformed the American orthography

Why?

To divorce America from England by simpliifying the orthogrpahy

Now who is being divorced from modern israeli simplistic orthography?


Here are the suspects
A. Traditional Hebrew
B. Torah Hebrew
C S'phardic Hebrew
D Asheknazic Hebrew

Does Israel have a right to do it?

Of course

Congress can raise my taxes too but I don't have to like it! ;-)

Let the academy do its thing
And let them take their lumps from me
And those who are like-minded

Does their right to reform Hebrew immunize them from criticism somehow?

[Sammy Noe]

You seem to be confusing "l'shoin b'nei odom" with formally agreeing that it is correct to use it.   Because the world all use the word "nice" incorrectly, that does not mean that some Academy, as in Israel and France, has the right to lay down the law, and call it correct.   Regards   Sammy --- On Wed, 14/7/10, avraham and ruth walfish <rawa...@gmail.com> wrote:

From: avraham and ruth walfish <rawa...@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [leining] Correcting the Mapik Hey To: lei...@googlegroups.com

[Isaac Friedman]

First of all, it is quite possible for an ashkenazi to pronounce all the various different letters. I can do it and I'm no daqdeqan by any stretch of the imagination -- I often mess up shva na and nakh. It's just a matter of concentration, because when it isn't your native language you have to remember that a vav is pronounced whoa but a veis isn't and the difference between gh and RRRRRRRRR etc.

Regarding the language dustup, my Rav says that he speaks Israeli.

--

[rabbiri...@gmail.com]

Isaac Friedman

«Regarding the language dustup, my Rav says that he speaks Israeli.»

So tell me

The Talmud and the Shulchan Aruch [Sa]state

Anyone failing to distinguish between the aleph and ayin is not fit to be a Sha"tz

No objection from Rema

Mishnah V'rurah defends our currentlack of nuance though he is apparently aware of it.

Question:
Is it now OK for those with a Tradition to preserve this distinction to toss out this nuance and say

"I follow Ben Yehudah or the Academy" and this din in SA is now obsolete.

IOW is it OK for s'phardim and Teimanim to lose
THEIR traditional pronunciations?

I davened at the Fair Lawn S'phardic center for months

The Rav - of Moroccan descent - has all the Teimani nuances except kowmatz - as far as i can tell [afaict]

I wonder how he would feel?

I wonder about the 2 Teimani brothers who daven there.

Now ALL lived in Israel all speak Modern Hebrew. NONE daven in modern Hebrew. All follow minhag Avoth Why is that?

Os is that only Ashkenazim are contemptuous of Traditional Pronunciations for the sake of "progress"

I'm confused here

[Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon]

There is certainly an argument that a living pronunciation of Hebrew is a legitimate one to use. Indeed, if hebrew had remained a livign language through the common era, everyone would undoubtedly use pronunciations that are even more different from those "fixed" by the masorah.

Jeremy

----- Original Message -----
From: rabbiri...@gmail.com
Date: Wednesday, July 14, 2010 6:00 pm
Subject: Re: [leining] Correcting the Mapik Hey

To: Leining <lei...@googlegroups.com>

[rabbiri...@gmail.com]

There is certainly an argument that a living pronunciation of Hebrew is a legitimate one to use. Indeed, if hebrew had remained a livign language through the common era, everyone would undoubtedly use pronunciations that are even more different from those "fixed" by the masorah.

Jeremy »

Well it all depends how we view Sinai and Nitqatnu hadorot

If we think of Hebrew as a holy legacy to be presrved or evenb restored "l'Yoshnah"
We go one way.

If we think of it as utilitarian we go the other way.

I know the French and Quebecois frown upon ech other's language.

But there is no q'dushah there afaict

If language can evolve why not leining

Why not let us forget about nuances? Why not let a yetiv evolve to mahpach? A qadma to a pashta? Why bother finding inspiration from Tiberian Masoretes?
Why bother with R Mordechai Breuer trying to preserve Zeicher? Let it evolve to zecher and zeicher both

My son had to read the last passuq of ki teitzei FOUR times at his bar mitzvah

Two times sh'vii and two times maftir
Two times zecher
Two times zeicher

If you applaud this kind of progress
Go for it!

[marshall...@comcast.net]

Regarding zeicher / zecher:   What I don't understand at all is why, if you leyn with normative modern Hebrew pronunciation (Israeli) as I do, why in the world do I have to repeat, since both a tseirei chaser and a segol are pronounced 'eh' in this structure?  I've had to do this  at more than one shul.

----- Original Message -----
From: rabbiri...@gmail.com
To: "Leining" <lei...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2010 3:14:22 PM
Subject: Re: [leining] Correcting the Mapik Hey

[Isaac Friedman]

Rabbi Wolpe: allow me to clarify. He was referring to modern Hebrew as "Israeli" to distinguish it from the Hebrew of the mesorah. IOW, a community or individual follows their own mesorah regardless of how the academics of Ben Yehuda decide that the language evolved. Interestingly enough, when I asked him whether or not I should say krias shema in the Yemenite havara because it's more accurate than ashkenuhzis, he told me not to since

a) my father doesn't
b) I was never taught that way in yeshiva
c) his rebbi, Reb Yaakov used to say that it's important to "be normal" at least in public.

The Mishnah v'rurah does defend the lack of nuance but is very careful to qualify his defence by saying that it only applies to a community that generally lacks that nuance. IIRC it's in Hilkhos nesias kapayim where he says that a Russian who doesn't differentiate between a ches and a heh can dukhen but anyone else who lacks this nuance cannot. It would appear that he is pasqening to admit "mistakes" based on mesorah as valid evolutions of the language (like the word piyyut) while still disallowing an individuals poor reading ability.

[Meir BenChayim]

 
 
 > Also, can we use the proper style for Rishonim?  Either "The Radak" or "Rabbi
> Kimhi" instead of "Kimchi" as found on another post, not by Rabbi Wolpoe.
 

     I believe this refers to my posting, and I plead "not guilty."  Chalilla that I should refer to the Radak as "Kimchi."  What I wrote, however, was "the Kimchis," referring not only to him but to the family of dakdekanim.  As such, I don't believe it is in any way disrespectful.
 
Meir

[avraham and ruth walfish]

It depends on whether a "holy legacy" and "utlitarian" are polar opposites. I don't believe they are, and I believe that those who want to preserve the holy legacy need to live in the real world and not delude themselves that we can return to the pristine purity of the original language. The dialectic of tradition and adaptation will, and ought to, function differently in shul and in daily living. For those of us for whom Hebrew is a language for study and prayer, maintaining family and/or community traditions carry tremendous weight - and even here, let us not delude ourselves into thinking that life is static. I grew up with a different Hebrew pronunciation than did my grandparents, and to my mind I am no less connected to our holy traditions for pronouncing a shuruk as u or a tzeirah as long a. In the marketplace the tradeoff between legacy and utility will function differently.

A further point about "lehahazir atarah leyoshnah" - which "leyoshnah"? In their speech and "writings" Hazal ratified the evolution of the language in many ways, including many examples of flouting the rules of biblical Hebrew.

 

Avie

[Nehemiah Klein]

Sorry, the academy for Hebrew Language I do not believe is based on Jewish tradition.  Although I admit to not knowing the scholars you mention personally, I find it hard to believe that anyone who knows and loves the Hebrew language would add extra letters when you can get by without it.  Although I was makpid on my sons' Bar Mitzvah invitations to spell mitzvot with one vav, I can understand how it helps.  Isha there is no justification for it, no one is going to pronounce it A-she or O-she.   If they really cared, then each change would be done with a heavy heart as a necessary evil and not as "who cares, so what if an extra yud makes it a chirik malei", I don't care.  Are they the ones also responsible for street signs with improper nikkud like vowelizing Yisrael with a kamatz under the yud and a segol under the aleph - why not, if it makes it easier for people?

On Wed, Jul 14, 2010 at 7:39 PM, avraham and ruth walfish <rawa...@gmail.com> wrote:

The spelling of isha (woman) with a yod has been approved by the Academy of Hebrew Language, the High Court of contemporary Hebrew usage, comprising the leading scholars of Hebrew language in Israel. This is part of their attempt to standardize and simplify writing conventions. Whether or not you agree with or like their decision, it has been carefully weighed and considered by people who know and love the language, so it is hardly a "travesty" and should not be classified with "nikud mistakes" and "liberties of improper spelling".

Avie

On Wed, Jul 14, 2010 at 2:05 PM, Nehemiah Klein <kle...@gmail.com> wrote:

The "yod" is one of the many travesties of modern Israeli Hebrew that we in Israel suffer with - they spell isha (woman) with a yod which really means "her husband".  If you lived here you would flip at all the nikud mistakes in signs and all the liberties of improper spelling as if it made no difference.

On Wed, Jul 14, 2010 at 2:51 PM, Sammy Noe <leini...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

Hi MIchael   So far as I'm concerned this is an error, as it completely changes p'shat from "her husband" to "a woman".   I had to speak to someone last week, and this time he was polite: I told him that the "yod" made the translation "her husband", and that's when the mappik is included.   Kind regards   Sammy --- On Mon, 12/7/10, Michael Gutmann <mjgu...@gmail.com> wrote: From: Michael Gutmann <mjgu...@gmail.com> Subject: [leining] Correcting the Mapik Hey To: "leining" <lei...@googlegroups.com> Date: Monday, 12 July, 2010, 19:48 I'm sure this has been discussed by the old-timers here before, but as a newbie, I wouldn't know for certain. Someone commented to me that the leining in his local youth minyan this past week was terrible and that, among other things, the person leining the first aliyah went through the entire parsha of nedarim without pronouncing a single mapik.  I told him that I was under the impression that such mistakes do not need to be corrected.  And then he got really upset because he couldn't tell which "isha" was which. So, who's right? -Michael-

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[Nehemiah Klein]

READ VS. READ
I would like to make a motion that English speaking countries change one of these words - either the past or the present - I find it too confusing.

[Nehemiah Klein]

Yes, you must live in the real world, it must be adapted, but they have gone way overboard.  They should adapt what is necessary, not double vavs and yuds because why not.  They change things without any feeling for the fact that they are changing it.  As I mentioned before, the vowelization on street signs is pathetic, why?  Because there is no reason to be makpid - who cares.  Did you know that the Hebrew microsoft spellcheck says you are WRONG if you don't spell things their convoluted way?  At the very least, say that the right way is correct.  Am I wrong for spelling isha without a yud, am I wrong for spelling seiar (hair) without a yud, am I wrong for spelling mitzvah with only one vav.  That is the problem - in keeping with the Zionist dream they are throwing out Jewish tradition and starting something new.

[avraham and ruth walfish]

I do know many of the scholars personally and I can guarantee that their love for the tradition is in no way inferior to yours. They do believe - as do I - that that needs to be balanced with other considerations, including how actual speakers and writers actually speak and write. Having heard some of them descibe some of their deliberations I can attest that they don't take any change lightly, and they don't do so unless they have weighty reasons for it. Like anybody else they are fallible and not everyone will like or agree with their decisions (often they are hotly debated within the Academy). But both integrity and fairness will be well served by trying to understand them before critiquing them.

[avraham and ruth walfish]

And - no, they are not the ones responsible for improper nikud on many Israeli signs. They battle against it, but it is a losing battle - even otherwise well-educated and articulate people are usually unable to maintain the distinctions between different signs that are pronounced alike.

On Thu, Jul 15, 2010 at 8:47 AM, Nehemiah Klein <kle...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Meir BenChayim]

     The convention that was adopted is that a yod be used to show a chirik (and a vav to indicate a kamatz katan).  It is intended for use only where there is no nikkud, as a (partial) replacement.  
 
     It is not something new.  Words such as "bishul" and "eiruv" were written with a yod by the Geonim and the Rishonim.  They also added alefs and vavs where they felt it was necessary to be clear.  What the Academy did was to make it universal, to use it for every chirik -- but the idea itself wasn't their invention; it's in our mesora.  (This doesn't mean I like it, especially where it's unnecessary; but don't accuse them of something bordering on apikorsut.)
 
Meir

---

Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 09:47:28 +0300
Subject: Re: [leining] Correcting the Mapik Hey
From: kle...@gmail.com
To: lei...@googlegroups.com

[Nehemiah Klein]

Why do they spell beneinu which means my son (singular) with a yud after the nun which makes it plural - it was easier without their additions.  Same goes for biteninu (my daughter) with a yud after the bet which makes it my house.  I am not speaking necessarily of these scholars who may have meant well, but it appears that they have created an atmosphere where the average person does not care.  Would it not be simpler to leave well enough alone and distinguish between my son in the singular and my sons in the plural rather than confuse people by trying to make it easier.  They may have meant well, but the atmosphere which has been created is that nobody cares about spelling, nikud, even verb conjugation anymore.  Listen to Israeli kids now - rather than higati (I have arrived) they now say higeiti, rather than pachadeti (I was afraid) they now say pichadeti - does that sound scholarly to you?  Is that necessary?  I got a call from a tzdaka and the woman identified herself as working for "lemaan echai" - I immediately corrected her that it is "achai".  This is a travesty which comes from wanting to make "changes" to make it "easier" which as I mentioned only serves to confuse the issue.

[Nehemiah Klein]

There is the problem, they extended it beyond what was necessary, they have changed the entire mesorah rather than sticking to helping people work with it the way you describe the period of the geonim and rishonim.  They have taken what may have been a helpful idea in some cases and gone way overboard, as I mentioned - giving people the impression that you can do whatever you want when it comes to spelling and nikud.  Do they have spelling tests here?  Did you know they started combining two words into one, I found a book where ben adam is written as one word with a regular nun, same goes for yom huledet, I saw it written as one word with a regular mem.  This is way beyond trying to make it easier - this is throwing away our tradition for no reason.

[Mark Symons]

So why not "The Rashi"?

[rabbiri...@gmail.com]

It depends on whether a "holy legacy" and "utlitarian" are polar opposites. I don't believe they are, and I believe that those who want to preserve the holy legacy need to live in the real world and not delude themselves that we can return to the pristine purity of the original language. »

So when a reader mis proounces any word why not chalk it up to evolution? And say this is simpy the new normative way to say the word? Or another new dialect?

Nuclear or Nucular, same difference?

Since there IS NO objective standard - rather a moving target - why bother even preparing?

[Zev Sero]

I've noticed lately that Israelis will commonly write things like
"ani yelech", "ani yakum", etc.

--
Zev Sero The trouble with socialism is that you

z...@sero.name eventually run out of other people�s money
- Margaret Thatcher

[Zev Sero]

rabbiri...@gmail.com wrote:

> So when a reader mis proounces any word why not chalk it up to
> evolution? And say this is simpy the new normative way to say the
> word? Or another new dialect?
> Nuclear or Nucular, same difference?

Bad example. "Nookyular" is the *correct* pronunciation in large parts
of the USA.

[Sammy Noe]

Nehemiah - I agree wholeheartedly with everything you said: but "ad v'loi ad bichlal" - not your last sentence: and I'm far from being a Zionist. --- On Thu, 15/7/10, Nehemiah Klein <kle...@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Nehemiah Klein <kle...@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [leining] Correcting the Mapik Hey

[Sammy Noe]

Ani shocked m'oid! --- On Thu, 15/7/10, Zev Sero <z...@sero.name> wrote:

From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name> Subject: Re: [leining] Correcting the Mapik Hey To: lei...@googlegroups.com

Date: Thursday, 15 July, 2010, 15:10

I've noticed lately that Israelis will commonly write things like "ani yelech", "ani yakum", etc.    -- Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you

z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people’s money                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "leining" group. To post to this group, send email to lei...@googlegroups.com.

To unsubscribe from this group, send email to leining+unsub...@googlegroups.com.

[Aryeh Moshen]

Radak would have been fine, but the use of a surname without a style (Rabbi) is a bit gauche in our circles, albeit common in American medai.

---

From: Mark Symons <msy...@alphalink.com.au>
To: lei...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thu, July 15, 2010 7:52:37 AM

Subject: Re: [leining] Correcting the Mapik Hey

--
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[ZA]

It is true that languages evolve and live languages evolve lively.
Greek, for example evolved so much so, that modern Greek speakers have
no idea what the ancient texts in that language say without
translation. English is a prime example for that evolution (try to
read King James and then try to read Beowulf.)
I will not get into the question whether the nequdot are Torah leMoshe
miSinai or are a later development. Suffice to say that leKhulei
'Alma, by the Ninth century, the Biblical Hebrew was codified around
the Kether Ben-Asher. The language thus got a strong, standard
baseline that was revered enough to disallow any diversion from the
basic grammar while allowing enough flexibility to absorb foreign
terminology, changes in the syntax and still live in peace with other
layers of the language (the attempt of the grammarians to "correct"
some Mishnaic text was mentioned in this discussion.)
This standard baseline also allowed several, equally 'correct'
dialects of the language to co-exist. The Yemanites are famous to
preserve distinction between all vowels and consonants, but even the
Ahkenazi, 'Iraqi and Sephardi dialects and their local variations
preserved most of such distinctions, if in different pronunciations.
But the most important effect of this baseline is that Hebrew is
probably the only living language that its learned speakers may master
or at least have a fair understanding of most historical layers of the
language, at least from late biblical times onward.
In modernizing the language and making it into a national language of
the political entity of the State of Israel, some steps were taken
with intended and unintended results.

1. The language was 'standardized' based on the Sephardi standard, but
as this standard is performed (pronounced) by the Ashkenazi
population. The result was the bastardization of the language and is
the main cause of the sloppy pronunciation by the whole population.

2. The baseline ceased to be revered because of the secularization of
the society. The result is that every Zav uMetzora' allow him/herself
to change to their heart content. One such change that was luckily,
rejected, was the suggestion by 'Uzi Ornan (a disciple of No'am
Chomsky) to switch to Latin Characters (an inferior writing system
that cannot represent any of the gutturals, especially the consonant
Aleph! BTW, Aleph exists in most non-European languages.)

3. With the modern poor educational system that abandoned teaching
grammar (US is as guilty as Israel in that,) the Israelis began to
loose their connection with the proper Hebrew. The result is the
inventions of structures that are not needed otherwise and neglecting
the proper pronunciations.

The Academy was appointed to preserve the baseline while introducing
new words and maybe new structures when no such structures exist.
When they were doing so, I could have argue with Rabbi Teitz and
others that there is no real difference between Hebrew and Loshon
Kodesh and the invention of the term Loshon Kodesh as defining a
different language was no more then political invention of the Anti-
Zionist, frumi Jews, I can no longer stand by this argument. There
is now a drive in the secular world to separate the two languages by
actively destroying the connection with the baseline. I think that
the people who lend their name to that development will be judged
harshly by history. I may just imagine the unintended consequences of
such moves.
I will forever stay with the language that will become to be known as
Loshon Kodesh.


Ze'ev Atlas

[rabbiri...@gmail.com]

Zev Atlas:
«It is true that languages evolve and live languages evolve lively. Greek, for example evolved so much so, that modern Greek speakers have

no idea what the ancient texts in that language say without

translation.»

First I wish to Welcome Zev Atlas and applaud his "maiden" post

Secondly, despite my sarcasm yesterday, I did not mean anything personal towards individuals of the academy etc.

My concern was legitimately aimed at the issues ONLY and I therefore should have avoided anything ad hominem... And so
I apologize for any misunderstanding.

[AMK Judaica]

sammy:
 
if you're going to make fun of israeli hebrew, please do it correctly. it should be "ani be-shock."
 
kol tuv,
ari kinsberg
 

---

Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 16:56:44 +0000
From: leini...@yahoo.co.uk

Subject: Re: [leining] Correcting the Mapik Hey
To: lei...@googlegroups.com

Ani shocked m'oid! --- On Thu, 15/7/10, Zev Sero <z...@sero.name> wrote: From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name> Subject: Re: [leining] Correcting the Mapik Hey To: lei...@googlegroups.com Date: Thursday, 15 July, 2010, 15:10 I've noticed lately that Israelis will commonly write things like "ani yelech", "ani yakum", etc.    -- Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people’s money                                                     - Margaret Thatcher -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "leining" group. To post to this group, send email to lei...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to leining+unsub...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/leining?hl=en.

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