more on cholam/yud, shuruk/yud

[Avram Herzog]

Art,

If I understand you correctly, you are suggesting that tzivuy, vor example, be pronounced tzivu-"y", meaning tzivu followed by a "y" or English letter "y" sound.  But that, I believe, would require a shva under the final yud.

Further, I don't pronounce it tzivu--ee, as that would be incorrect.  I only meant to imply that the vowel sound of tzivui and all such words is an elision of two vowels, the "oo and the "ee", as in the English word buoy (that thingy that floats in the water).

So in the final analysis, it still seems to me that tzivuy, elai, goi, are all cases where the yud is a vowel.  Your reasoning for your position, however, is impressive.  I just don't see it that way.  Your thoughts?

Avi H  

 

 

On 06/08/16, Art Roth<artj...@gmail.com> wrote:

 

Avi wrote:
Yud, as a consonant, is generally pronounced like the letter "y": Y'rushalayim, yeish, vayomer, etc.  In the cases of shuruk-yud and cholam-yud, kamatz-yud, and patach-yud, you're assuming that the yud is consonantal, even though it's not pronounced like "y"; it's not pronounced like it normally is.  To the contrary, it would have a long "e" sound as in sheep, beep, etc.  IOW, absent the vowel before the yud (shuruk/cholam/kamatz/patach), you're left with "ee".  But this is not how a yud is pronounced.

In the cases of patax-yud and qamatz-yud, I don't understand the assertion that it's typically pronounced like "ee" rather than "y".  We say Saray (not Sara-ee) --- exactly as it would sound if you tack on a "y" to the name Sara.

In the case of the shuruq, I agree that for most of us, it sounds more like "ee" than "y".  For instance, most of us say tzivu-ee and ripu-ee.  But I believe that this is merely a device that we employ for ease of pronunciation.  It's possible (but very difficult) to say tzivu-"y", where the "y" sounds the same as in yeish or vayomer --- but IMO, this is probably the most correct pronunciation.  I think that most of us substitute tzivu-ee simply because tzivu-"y" is just too difficult to pronounce and perhaps not worth making the effort to do so.  

Here's another example of the same phenomenon.  When there's a sh"va before a silent letter (alef or, for most of us, ayin), it's a lot easier to pronounce the sh"va as a xiriq.  I try to avoid doing this, but don't always succeed --- and many people don't even make the effort.  For example, I will sometimes unintentionally (even during leining) pronounce v"amarta and v"asita as vee-amarta and vee-asita, respectively.  That doesn't make it right --- but it's a natural tendency for the sake of convenience.  Now tzivu-"y" is even more difficult to pronounce than v"asita --- so qal vaxomer, a more easily pronounced substitute is even more prevalent for tzivu-"y" than for v"asita.

The xolam is even more of an extreme case.  I disagree with your assertion that the yud is typically pronounced like "ee" in this case.  Nobody pronounces gimel-vav-yud as go-ee.  But it's also not true that the "y" sound is simply tacked on to a normal xolam.  I believe that this is literally impossible to do --- unlike tzivu-"y", it can't be accomplished even with great effort.  Try saying go-"y" without changing the "y" to "ee" --- I know that I can't.  So most of us simply say "goy" --- with a real "y" sound but a shortened xolam that sounds more like the English "aw" than the English long-o sound which is usually used for a xolam.  Ironically, we have now come up with a case where GEK's originally assertion is true for all practical purposes, i.e., the presence of the yud actually changes the pronunciation of the vowel.  But this is only in practice out of convenience.  From a purely theoretical perspective, I believe that the "correct" pronunciation is the impossible-to-pronounce combination of the usual xolam followed by the usual "y" sound.

Art        

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[Zev Sero]

On 06/08/2016 10:44 AM, Avram Herzog wrote:
>
> Further, I don't pronounce it tzivu--ee, as that would be incorrect. I only meant to imply that the vowel sound of tzivui and all such words is an elision of two vowels, the "oo and the "ee", as in the English word buoy (that thingy that floats in the water).

But buoy, at least in American, *is* pronounced "boo-ee", whereas I have
never heard *anyone* pronounce tzivuy that way. Tzivuy is indeed the
"oo" of foot followed by a consonant Y, and no "ee" at all.

--
Zev Sero Meaningless combinations of words do not acquire
z...@sero.name meaning merely by appending them to the two other
words `God can'. Nonsense remains nonsense, even
when we talk it about God. -- C S Lewis

[Avram Herzog]

It's not clear to me what consonantal "y" sound you're referring to (both Zev and Art).   I can't visualize it.

Avi

[Zev Sero]

On 06/08/2016 01:02 PM, Avram Herzog wrote:
> It's not clear to me what consonantal "y" sound you're referring to
> (both Zev and Art). I can't visualize it.

It's very simple. The vowel in "put" followed by the first consonant in "yes".
I don't understand what's not clear. The same sound as you hear in "mesuyam".
No "oo" like "boot", and no "ee" like "feet", both of which are clearly there
in the American pronunciation of "buoy".

[Zev Sero]

Think of the Yiddish expletive "fuy!" It's exactly the same.

[Giorgies E. Kepipesiom]

On Wednesday, June 8, 2016 at 10:44:30 AM UTC-4, Avi Herzog wrote:

> If I understand you correctly, you are suggesting that tzivuy, vor example, be pronounced tzivu-"y",

> meaning tzivu followed by a "y" or English letter "y" sound.  But that, I believe, would require a shva

> under the final yud.

In fact there is a schvo under the final yood. though by convention, schvo's under final letters are not written, but they are implied. Thus, the first word of the Torah, B'reishis, ends with the letter sov. This sov is not silent. It is pronounced as it would be if a schvo were written under it. Only in a few select cases are schvo's written under final letters: a final choff (leich), a final a final tov (at), or when the penultimate letter also has a schvo (vayeivk, vayashk).

GEK

[Art Roth]

Avi, I agree with Giorgies that there's an implied sh"va under these kinds of yuds, just as there is an implied sh"va under the gimel in sheleg or the nun in shulxan, etc.  I believe that the ideal pronunciation of tzivuy ends with a run-of-the-mill shuruq (as in lashuv) followed by a run-of-the-mill consonant yud (as in yeish).  Similarly, I believe that the ideal pronunciation of goy ends with a run-of-the-mill xolam (as in koteiv) followed by a run-of-the-mill consonant yud.  (I disagree with Zev that the "oo" sound of "foot" belongs in tzivuy --- I don't think that any vowel in the Hebrew language has that sound.)

A problem exists in practice because the ideal pronunciations described above are either very difficult (in the case of tzivuy) or impossible (in the case of goy) to achieve --- although GEK says that he has no difficulty pronouncing those words that way.  In my case, the "y" in tzivuy winds up sounding somewhat like "ee", and the xolam in goy winds up sounding more like the aw in pawn than like the long-o sound in loan (which is what almost all other xolams sound like).  Thus, I wind up saying tzivu-ee and gawy.  On the other hand, Zev apparently keeps the "y" in tzivuy by shortening the shuruq to the "oo" sound in foot --- winding up with tzivooy (again, where the "oo" is as in foot).  This is more similar to my accommodation for goy (in the sense that the vowel is shortened in order to keep the "y") than to my accommodation for tzivuy, but it's just as valid.  The point is that both his accommodation and mine are indeed accommodations because the ideal is too difficult for most of us to pronounce.

Are your issues with my hypothesis restricted to shuruq and xolam, or do you have a problem even in the case of patax and qamatz, where the pronunciation (usual vowel followed by usual "y") is almost universal? 

Art

[Zev Sero]

On 06/08/2016 06:43 PM, Art Roth wrote:
> On the other hand, Zev apparently keeps the "y" in tzivuy by
> shortening the shuruq to the "oo" sound in foot

I don't shorten anything; that is how I have always pronounced *every*
shuruk and melupum, ever since I learned to read. And it's how I hear
every other Ashkenazi pronounce it.

[Zev Sero]

On 06/08/2016 06:47 PM, Zev Sero wrote:
> And it's how I hear every other Ashkenazi pronounce it.

By which I mean as opposed to Galician/Hungarian/whatevers who pronounce
it like a chirik.

[Avram Herzog]

Zev, what's a melupum?

Avi H 

 

 

On 06/08/16, Zev Sero<z...@sero.name> wrote:

 

On 06/08/2016 06:43 PM, Art Roth wrote:
> On the other hand, Zev apparently keeps the "y" in tzivuy by
> shortening the shuruq to the "oo" sound in foot

I don't shorten anything; that is how I have always pronounced *every*

shuruk and melupum, ever since I learned to read. And it's how I hear

every other Ashkenazi pronounce it.

--
Zev Sero Meaningless combinations of words do not acquire
z...@sero.name meaning merely by appending them to the two other
words `God can'. Nonsense remains nonsense, even
when we talk it about God. -- C S Lewis

[Zev Sero]

On 06/09/2016 10:29 AM, Avram Herzog wrote:
> Zev, what's a melupum?

Three dots under a letter is called either kubutz or shuruk, and a vav
with a dot in it is called either shuruk or melupum.

[Giorgies E. Kepipesiom]

On Thursday, June 9, 2016 at 1:48:12 PM UTC-4, Zev Sero wrote:

> Three dots under a letter is called either kubutz or shuruk, and a vav

> with a dot in it is called either shuruk or melupum.

In the introductory pages of the Chabad siddhurim, shuruk is given as an alternate name for the three diagonal dots. Does any other source call the three dots shuruk? As for melupum, while some call a shuruk or kubutz melupum, Rashi (sh'mos 14:12; 15:5) calls a cholom (not shuruk or kybootz) melupum.

[Avram Herzog]

Thanks, Zev.  I never heard the term melupum before.

Avi H 

 

 

On 06/09/16, Zev Sero<z...@sero.name> wrote:

 

On 06/09/2016 10:29 AM, Avram Herzog wrote:
> Zev, what's a melupum?

Three dots under a letter is called either kubutz or shuruk, and a vav
with a dot in it is called either shuruk or melupum.

--
Zev Sero Meaningless combinations of words do not acquire
z...@sero.name meaning merely by appending them to the two other
words `God can'. Nonsense remains nonsense, even
when we talk it about God. -- C S Lewis

[Meir]

     It would seem to make more sense to use the term for cholam than for shuruk, since the word is from the Aramaic for a full mouth, which is descriptive of the position of the mouth for a cholam, while for a shuruk, the mouth is pursed.

Meir     

---

From: lei...@googlegroups.com <lei...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Giorgies E. Kepipesiom <kepip...@hotmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 9, 2016 2:26 PM
To: leining
Subject: Re: [leining] more on cholam/yud, shuruk/yud

 

[Jay Braun]

True, but if one draws a circle of constant diameter around the mouth, more of the mouth in enclosed by said circle when pronouncing the "u" sound.

[Art Roth]

From my last posting:

On the other hand, Zev apparently keeps the "y" in tzivuy by shortening the shuruq to the "oo" sound in foot

Zev's response:

I don't shorten anything; that is how I have always pronounced *every* shuruk and melupum, ever since I learned to read.  And it's how I hear every other Ashkenazi pronounce it. 

For illustrative purposes in the examples below, I'll use oo instead of my usual u to transliterate the shuruq and qubutz.  Also, for convenience, I'll use the term shuruq to include both shuruq and qubutz.

I can believe your assertion for words whose "shuruq syllable" is closed and unaccented (e.g., shoolxan, moor'ato, and goonov goonavti) or closed and forms the entire word (e.g., mool and shoov), i.e., I can believe that you (and some others) pronounce the "oo" in these words like foot rather than like moon, although I personally use the "oo" sound as in moon even for these words.  And (unlike you) that's also what I've heard from most other Ashkenazim.  

However, the "foot" pronunciation sounds completely foreign and off base to me in all other cases, i.e., in words where the "shuruq syllable" is open or accented (in words with more than one syllable) or both (even in words with only one syllable).  Here are some examples.

OPEN: shoolei, t"moora, g"oola, oolay

ACCENTED (in words with more than one syllable): katoov, ashoor, vayit"noom

BOTH: m"ooma, loo, sham"ru / kat"vu / akh"lu and all verbs of that form

Zev, do you use the "foot" pronunciation in any of these words?  I truly can't imagine that pronunciation in any such cases, but I'll certainly take your word for this if you can confirm it.  Again, I personally use the "moon" pronunciation for every shuruq --- even the ones in the "I can believe" categories delineated above. That's why I (and most other speakers whom I've heard) have to resort to galoo-ee and tzivoo-ee because it's impossible to pronounce a pure "y" after "oo" as in moon.

Art

[Art Roth]

Addendum: In the OPEN category below, I meant to include some words that begin with a shuruq, such as uva'ta and umimarom.  

[shmuel.fr...@gmail.com]

So if you had a kubutz on a monosyllable, would you do it short(foot) or long(moon?).   A suppose a monosyllable is accented(assuming it has no makaf connected to it), so long.   I think when you have a monosyllable with no makaf then you get a note with it so an accent so it's meeting the open or accented criteria, failing the closed unaccented criteria.

[Zev Sero]

On 06/11/2016 12:15 PM, shmuel.fr...@gmail.com wrote:
> However, the "foot" pronunciation sounds completely foreign and off base to me in all other cases, i.e., in words where the "shuruq syllable" is open or accented (in words with more than one syllable) or both (even in words with only one syllable). Here are some examples.
> OPEN: shoolei, t"moora, g"oola, oolay
> ACCENTED (in words with more than one syllable): katoov, ashoor, vayit"noom
> BOTH: m"ooma, loo, sham"ru / kat"vu / akh"lu and all verbs of that form
>
> Zev, do you use the "foot" pronunciation in any of these words? I
> truly can't imagine that pronunciation in any such cases, but I'll
> certainly take your word for this if you can confirm it.

That's certainly what my ear hears my mouth say, and what it hears almost
everyone else say too.

[Zev Sero]

On 06/11/2016 12:15 PM, shmuel.fr...@gmail.com wrote:

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