tip'cha in Eicha ch 3 & 5

[Gideon]

I don't understand the trop for these chapters where each of the psukim are so short.

For example, 5:2

נַחֲלָתֵ֙נוּ֙ נֶֽהֶפְכָ֣ה לְזָרִ֔ים בָּתֵּ֖ינוּ לְנָכְרִֽים׃

The parallelism here is obviously between our nachalah going to zarim and our batim going to nochrim. The poetic break in the line is after zarim, but the tip'cha is on bateinu.

Next verse, same thing.

יְתוֹמִ֤ים הָיִ֙ינוּ֙ אין [וְאֵ֣ין] אָ֔ב אִמֹּתֵ֖ינוּ כְּאַלְמָנֽוֹת׃

Yetomim chaistically paired with almanot on the outside; av and em paired on the inside. The poetic break is after av but the disjunctive is on imoteinu.

etc.

Basically every short pasuk in chapters 3 and 5 is like this. (There are exceptions when a pasuk has 7 or 8 words instead of 5 or 6.)

[Zev Sero]

What's not to understand? In each of these the major break is between
the two parallel phrases, and each side of the parallelism is broken up
by a minor break between the subject and what has happened to it.

Our inheritance, has been turned over to strangers;
our house, to foreigners.

We were orphans, without a father;
our mothers, like widows.

I don't understand the question.

--
Zev Sero May 2017, with its *nine* days of Chanukah,
z...@sero.name be a brilliant year for us all

[Avram Herzog]

Hi Gideon,

Think of the pasuk "Vayomer Hashem el Moshe leimor."  The tipcha is after Hashem, not afer Moshe.  IOW, sometimes tipcha is a pausal, sometimes not.  Or, if you prefer, pausal is on a scale, from "less pausal" to "more pausal".  Here's another: "Kadosh kadosh kadosh Hashem tz'va'ot."  The tipcha is after the third kadosh.  But the translation accords well with the English grammar, "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts."  Notice I omitted the comma after the third holy.  The pasuk should be read (and sung in davening) such: Kadosh--kadosh--kadosh Hashem...  (the third kadosh belongs with Hashem, even though there is a tipcha after that kadosh.)

So in the p'sukim you quote: imoteinu belongs with k'almanot, even though there's a tipcha.  Same for bateinu l'nochrim.  IOW, don't let the tipcha bother you.

I hope this helps.

Avi Herzog

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[jaybr...@gmail.com]

Zaqef is the primary disjunctive here.

Zaqef and tip'cha are both m'lakhim, or second-level disjunctives.  Whenever two or more disjunctives appear consecutively (possibly with their lower-level disjunctives and conjunctives), the earlier one is the more significant pause.  The earlier one represents an "earlier" division into phrases (sequence-wise, not time-wise).  My favorite example is Num. 29:14.  There are two consecutive zaqef phrases, and the first is clearly the more significant pause.

In the short p'sukim of Chapter 3 with t'vir and tip'cha, the tip-cha is the more significant pause.

(Sometimes in a 2-word phrase, a tip'cha comes in place of a m'sharet, but that is not occurring here.)

j

[Avram Herzog]

Zev's post illustrates the rendering differently than mine, but to me Zev's is just as plausible.  Maybe in these cases even more plausible.

Avi H

[Gideon]

This is the answer I was looking for. I didn't realize zaqef and tip'cha were considered at the same level because if both are present, they occur in a fixed order. (Right? Is there ever a case that within a half-pasuk a zaqef would occur after a tip'cha?)

So it seemed to me that the more disjunctive disjunctive (tip'cha) was breaking the lines wrong where the less disjunctive disjunctive (zaqef) appeared. If, instead, the analysis is "the earlier of two same-level disjunctives is the stronger break" then that explains away the problem. 

[Jay Braun]

Glad that answered your question.  The tip'cha is least remote melekh, i.e., closest to the sof-pasuk or etnachta, so in a series of m'lakhim it would be the weakest.  But I am being careful here -- it is not inherently weaker.

j

[Chaim Gordimer]

On a related note, how many people here make a distinction in the sound of a sof passuk vs. esnachta?

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[Zev Sero]

On 31/07/17 18:06, Chaim Gordimer wrote:
> On a related note, how many people here make a distinction in the sound
> of a sof passuk vs. esnachta?

I do, and so does everyone I've listened closely to. Who *doesn't?

[Chaim Gordimer]

In the handful of other places I've been to, I've heard it. There seems to be a similar phenomenon with Esther as well.

[jaybr...@gmail.com]

For Eikha and Esther, I do not.  Simply the way I learned the trope.

For those who place three notes on the accented syllable -- which I think is common for the "East Ashkenazic" system -- I have heard some people shorten the etnachta to one note (the third of the minor chord).

j

[Chaim Gordimer]

For the sake of full disclosure, I lein with the Western trope, though Eicha and Esther are practically identical. Everyone I've heard leining with the Western trope made the distinction.

[Gideon]

In eicha trop, I do as follows, where 1 is the root of the minor scale (and so 3 represents the root of the associated major).

1 4   5  4

etnachta-a

4   5 3  2 1

sof pasu-u-uk

[Zev Sero]

On 31/07/17 18:14, Chaim Gordimer wrote:
> In the handful of other places I've been to, I've heard it. There seems
> to be a similar phenomenon with Esther as well.

Hmm, I thought you were referring to the Torah. Listening to myself
reading Esther & Eicha, I realised that I *don't* distinguish between
them in those two books. I never noticed that before. And that is how
I was taught, and how all the baalei korei I've listened closely to have
done as well. They distinguish these two taamim everywhere else, but
not in these two cases.


Still on Eicha, the balkorei at my shul when I was a boy used to do ch 3
to a tune that had little connection to the trop, and combined all three
pesukim for each letter into one "pasuk".

[Gideon]

I learned chapter three with this nusach (attached)

[Zev Sero]

On 31/07/17 18:25, Gideon wrote:
> I learned chapter three with this nusach (attached)

The one I know is less fancy, but the same basic idea.

[jaybr...@gmail.com]

Some years back, I recorded the following for virtualcantor.com; most of the recordings at the site are by my friend Josh Sharfman, who created the site.

http://www.virtualcantor.com/Eicha3b.mp3

I place the significant pause at the zaqef or tip'cha (except for the one etnachta).  At the time, I had not yet mastered all of the sh'va rules, so some could be "off".

j

[Aryeh Moshen]

I see it as a case of the Tipcha following an Atnach and preceding a Sof-Pasuk as the Tipcha being a musical method of bringing attention to the penultimate word of the pasuk, with the pshat acting like a mercha sof-pasuk.

On Monday, July 31, 2017 5:44 PM, Gideon <gidkl...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[Zev Sero]

Further re distinguishing between esnachto and sof posuk in Eicho and
Esther:

OK, so the balkorei at my shul tonight did not distinguish between these
two, but whenever a tipcho immediately precedes an esnachto he made it
shorter than all the others, in fact it sounded exactly like a tipcho in
Esther. I asked him about it afterward and he told me that's how he
was taught.

[Zev Sero]

On 31/07/17 17:56, Jay Braun wrote:
> Glad that answered your question. The tip'cha is least remote melekh,
> i.e., closest to the sof-pasuk or etnachta, so in a series of m'lakhim
> it would be the weakest. But I am being careful here -- it is not
> inherently weaker.

Isn't it? Are there any examples of it breaking more strongly than a katon?

[jaybr...@gmail.com]

> Isn't it?  Are there any examples of it breaking more strongly than a katon?

Theoretically, tip'cha and a zaqef are at the same level of pausal power (melekh).  But since a tip'cha is always assigned at the last division of the recursive bisection of the pasuk and then its phrases, it is always at a weaker pause than all zaqef and segol instances that precede it (back to the previous keisar, i.e., etnachta or sof-pasuk). 

The exact opposite with segol:  It has the same theoretical pausal srength, but since, when employed, it is used in the first bisection of its "half-pasuk", it is always at a stronger pause than the zaqef instances that follow it, out to the next keisar, which is always etnachta.

So the answer to your question is no, not "in between" keisarim.

On some occasions, the tip'cha is actually a transformation from an underlying mer'cha (but never after t'vir).  Breuer discusses this transformation, but I can't look it up now.  I am on the west coast, and Tish b'Av is about to begin.

j

[Gideon]

This is now moving beyond the scope of the subject line, but:

> [segol] has the same theoretical pausal srength, but since, when employed, it is used in the first bisection of its "half-pasuk", it is always at a stronger pause than the zaqef instances that follow it, out to the next keisar, which is always etnachta.

Segol always appears in the first half? 

Looks like I may have learned some Torah today....

[MP]

For Gideon et al., this Webpage (see axiom C) may be useful (and it's hyperlinked, together with Webpages from other listmembers, at the Leining group's homepage).

Thought that flitted into my head: when 9Av is once again a moeid, will we lein Eicha publicly [on any day of the year]?  I'm thinking not....

All the best from

Michael Poppers * Elizabeth, NJ, USA

[jaybr...@gmail.com]

>Breuer discusses this transformation, but I can't look it up now.  I am on the west coast, and Tish b'Av is about to begin.

Followup: All of Chapter 4 of Breuer's Ta&amei Hamiqra deals with the topic of "Mafsiq Bimqom M'sharet".

Also, upon further reflection, I think that  Zev's challenge to my statement that tip'Ha is not inherently weaker then zaqef has merit.  In truth, a trope is classified as a melekh if it is immediately subordinate to a qeisar.  In that sense, all m'lakhim are "equal".  But in terms of remoteness from the qeisar, since the most remote melekh represents a stronger pause than all intervening m'lakhim, I think it would be correct to say that, generally, segol (and shalshelet, which is a 1-word segol phrase) are typically the strongest m'lakhim, followed by zaqef of all varieties (gadol does not represent a stronger pause), followed by tip'Ha.

The general rule for segol is that the first zaqef phrase of a pasuk, if there is in etnaHta, can be replaced by a segol.  No rhyme or reason; it's just the m'sora.  Usually, there is another zaqef phrase before the etNahta, but not always.  Between the segol and tip'Ha, if there is no zaqef, there must at least be a t'vir, which is subordinate to the tip'Ha (see, for example,  Deut. 1:7 from last Shabbat). 

Some versions of the ta&m &elyon rendition of the &aseret haDib'rot violate the rule about segol coming first, but the trope for this rendition are somewhat contrived (does anyone know the history?).

Note to Gideon:  Don't worry about tangents; they're all good!

j

[Jonathan Baker]

Some don't. At least one of the regular Leiners in my shul doesn't.

Oh. My brother just asked for something online (he really doesn't have time for anything else) to learn eicha trup and do a perek motzi shabbat. Any recommendations? Ashki Eastern European by preference.

[AMK Judaica]

Try R. Wieder on YUTorah.org?

****************
Ari Kinsberg

M.A., Pharm.D.

Brooklyn, New York

347-244-9747 (US cell)

Consultant for Rare Books and Manuscripts

Registered Pharmacist (NYS, Ohio)

Certified Immunizer (NYS)

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Subject: Re: [leining] Re: tip'cha in Eicha ch 3 & 5

 

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