YAMIM NORAIM TROP

[AMK Judaica (Ari)]

as long as we are throwing out unusual tunes, i assume that the tune
for the yamim noraim is "universal"?
but what about using it for ve-zot ha-berakha?

kol tuv,
ari kinsberg

[rabbiri...@gmail.com]

Ari
«as long as we are throwing out unusual tunes, i assume that the tune

for the yamim noraim is "universal"?
but what about using it for ve-zot ha-berakha?

kol tuv,

ari kinsberg»

Yekkes and East Europeans seem to have same tune

I doubt that S'phardim or Teimanim have this melody.

Re: Maftir on YK [and maybe RH, too] I don't think Breuer's used this melody. Michael G or Michael O can better confirm.

Re: v'zot Habrachah
I'm fairly certain Yekkes do not use the YN melody and I'm pretty sure it's not universal in Eastern Ashkenaz either.

There is so much shtick on Simchat Torah that it's hard to tell. I vaguely recall one shul Using YN melody just the first time through.

Shalom
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

[AMK Judaica (Ari)]

> I doubt that S'phardim or Teimanim have this melody.
>

as is the nature of 99% of what is discussed here, by "universal" i
mean among ashkenazim

> Re: Maftir on YK [and maybe RH, too] I don't think Breuer's used this melody.  Michael G or Michael O can better confirm.

my grandfather taught me to use it for maftir on RH/YK, but not for
the leining at minhah

> Re: v'zot Habrachah
> I'm fairly certain Yekkes do not use the YN melody and I'm pretty sure it's not universal in Eastern Ashkenaz either.
>

i wasn't aware of a minhag to use it on simhat torah. then when i was
20 i lein it in the shul of friend (now a pulpit rabbi actually) and
he asked me why i wasn't using the special tune. i didn't think in
terms of minhag. i just assumed i had been doing it the wrong way and
since then i've been using it.

the reason i'm asking about all these tune minhagim is because i think
there are a lot of people like myself from famlies/shuls with no real
minhag for certain issues (as i just elaborated on in response to zev
in another thread). then we hear a particular minhag such as the
special tune for the masa'ot and start second guesing ourselves. do we
really have a minhag not to use it or are we ignorant about it? i
think many then jump on the bandwagon and adopt it, which in turn
feeds into a cycle that makes the minhag seem even more important/
dominant

kol tuv,
ari

[rabbiri...@gmail.com]

Ari
«the reason i'm asking about all these tune minhagim is because i think there are a lot of people like myself from famlies/shuls with no real

minhag for certain issues (as i just elaborated on in response to zev

in another thread).»

Asei l'cha Rav

I hitched on to "mentors"
Growing up I mostly followed the minhaggim of the reader of the shul at which I lained.

When I became reader for a Yekke Shul I was tutored by one of the Yekke veterans in the community.

Besides this list - I have in Teaneck a top-gun Talmid of R Mordechai Breuer and I can refer questions to him.

When I first joined the old leining list Dr. Jeremy called me and explained the differences between the Tiberian system and the Kimchi system.

I may be one of a few, but I almost always prefer to rely upon a "living" expert over a book to get an answer or explanation.

I remember when I was young I saw a Chaim Adam on hilchot Shabbat that I had simply presumed was "universal" Halachah and only much later on did I find out that he was a "Da'at Yachid" l'humra.

[Zev Sero]

Re: Yamim nora'im trop on Simchas Torah, I've never heard of this as a
minhag, rather than as shtick. I do the first time around straight;
once I've done that, I feel free to introduce shtick like standing on
the other side of the bimah and reading upside-down (carefully pointing
to each word with the yad, to make sure that I'm reading from the
written word, not from memory), and using different trops, e.g. yamim
nora'im, megillah, yekkish. But it's all ad hoc, and not at all a
minhag as far as I know.

--
Zev Sero The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name eventually run out of other people�s money
- Margaret Thatcher

[MG]

Using the Yomim Noraim tune on Simchas Torah, is certainly an
established minhag, and not "shtick".
See: Sefer Shulchan Hakriah Siman 21 who brings down this custom.
Also Sefer Divrei Shalom (by the mekubal R"S Sharabi).
It's brought down elsewhere too, I'd have to dig a little more.
Certainly brought down in Sifrei Chasidus, I'm sure it's in Divrei
Yoel somewhere.

Some say it is to connect this last day of Yom Tov to the beginning of
the Yomim Noraim cycle, that each Jew, young or old, has a chelek in
Torah, and to the extent we've gone astray we try to fix that on R"H/
Y"K...now we proclaim on S"T that everyone has their chelek in
Torah....so the tunes relate the two Yomim Tovim as one theme...also
the reason why everyone gets an Aliyah, as we proclaim that everyone
has a part of Torah.
Also the reason why some daven Maariv with the yomim noraim tune or
sing kadish or "HaMelech etc." with the Yomim Noraim tune...this is
not shtick and is done in many Chasidic circles, for the same reason.
This day is considered completing/sealing the entire cycle.
When you think about it that way it's actually quite a beautiful idea.
Unfortunately this evolved to a point where people sing other tunes,
which is silly.
Re reading upside down, however, that doesn't seem to me like one
would be yotzei, but I'm not a posek.

> z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people s money
>                                                      - Margaret Thatcher

[Zev Sero]

> Re reading upside down, however, that doesn't seem to me like one
> would be yotzei, but I'm not a posek.

I don't see why one wouldn't be yotzei, but I don't do it until after
the first time through anyway, so it's not an issue.

--
Zev Sero The trouble with socialism is that you

z...@sero.name eventually run out of other people�s money
- Margaret Thatcher

[rabbiri...@gmail.com]

MG:
«Using the Yomim Noraim tune on Simchas Torah, is certainly an
established minhag, and not "shtick".»

Maybe so but it's not what I was taught

I was taught EG @ Belz School that acharei Mos triggered this trope as a form of mourning for sh'nei B'nei Aharon - see EG Rashi.

That's why by YK Mincha we don't use this niggun so as NOT to whine about the issur Arayot.

«Sefer Divrei Shalom (by the mekubal R"S Sharabi).»

Do S'phardim have a special YN trope?

--------------------

I find using a tune to invoke solemnity and mourning as an unlikely candidate for continuing the spirit of YN on Simchas Torah Hoshana Rabba would make more sense ali pi ho'Arizal. But I've heard stranger things.

«Unfortunately this evolved to a point where people sing other tunes,
which is silly.»

As far as tunes go, Yekkes have Jahres melodies which are a meddley of year-'round occasions, many of these have been in print over 150 years.

[Sammy Noe]

So far as I am concerned, if I had the option I would not change any trop from what we have learned for the Toiroh and Haftoroh for any occasion, and that would include Shiras Hayom, Yomim Noiro'im, and Simchas Toiroh; I'm not even sure I would change for the Haftoroh.   Unfortunately, I have no such option: all I can do is hope to be present at "taiku" time, when this vexed sutuation - among others, of course -  will be resolved; and I hope I'll be proven correct.   Regards   Sammy --- On Sun, 11/7/10, rabbiri...@gmail.com <rabbiri...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[rabbiri...@gmail.com]

Sammy
«I'm not even sure I would change for the Haftoroh.»

So EG Esther, and Ruth etc. Would all sound like the Torah trope too?

My first Bar Mitzvah student was a complete monotone. :-) Maybe he had it right by never changing any note at all for any reason :-)

[MG]

I can't speak to what you were taught at Belz, but there is a Teshuvas
Chasam Sofer (I'll have to find it) who was asked how we can change
the tunes the way we do from the "regular" Torah reading to what we do
in the Haftorah, Megillos, Yamim Noraim, etc.
The answer he gives is that the tunes may not be the same, but the
"shapes" of the notes are always the same (I think his words are "a
zarka always 'sounds' like a zarka") but we change the melody to
invoke a certain feeling or emotion. He says it is well-known (?)
that the neveim sang their nevuos to klal yisrael using trup, and we
try to invoke that in our haftaros; Esther is a happy tune, and Eicha
is a mournful tune; the megillos are also joyful, and Yomim Noraim are
not sad or mournful, but _solemn_. According to the Belz school, why
do we use this tune on Rosh Hashana then, if it is for mourning
Aharon's sons? Furthermore, why don't we sing it during the year when
we lain Acharei Mos??

Bottom line there are solid mekoros for using the yamim noraim tune on
Simchas Torah.

[rabbiri...@gmail.com]

MG

«According to the Belz school, why

do we use this tune on Rosh Hashana then, if it is for mourning

Aharon's sons? »

Glad you asked! They said it was not native to RH but XFERRED there - similar to what I suspect happened on v'zot habrachah.

«Furthermore, why don't we sing it during the year when
we lain Acharei Mos??»

Simple crying over the death of Tzaddiqim is m'chapeir. Hence YK yes, acharei Mot no

According to YOU we should respond Hashem Hashem and shuv meicharon apecha on Shabbat ki tissa and shabbt Hol Hamo'ed!

And you still have not answered

Why not for YK Minchah? Or why not maftir in some k'Hillot?

Shalom
RRW



Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-----Original Message-----
From: MG <markgi...@yahoo.com>
Sender: lei...@googlegroups.com
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 17:16:46
To: leining<lei...@googlegroups.com>
Reply-To: lei...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [leining] Re: YAMIM NORAIM TROP

I can't speak to what you were taught at Belz, but there is a Teshuvas
Chasam Sofer (I'll have to find it) who was asked how we can change
the tunes the way we do from the "regular" Torah reading to what we do
in the Haftorah, Megillos, Yamim Noraim, etc.
The answer he gives is that the tunes may not be the same, but the
"shapes" of the notes are always the same (I think his words are "a
zarka always 'sounds' like a zarka") but we change the melody to
invoke a certain feeling or emotion. He says it is well-known (?)
that the neveim sang their nevuos to klal yisrael using trup, and we
try to invoke that in our haftaros; Esther is a happy tune, and Eicha
is a mournful tune; the megillos are also joyful, and Yomim Noraim are

not sad or mournful, but_solemn_. According to the Belz school, why

do we use this tune on Rosh Hashana then, if it is for mourning
Aharon's sons? Furthermore, why don't we sing it during the year when
we lain Acharei Mos??

Bottom line there are solid mekoros for using the yamim noraim tune on
Simchas Torah.



On Jul 11, 6:55 pm, rabbirichwol...@gmail.com wrote:
> MG:
> «Using the Yomim Noraim tune on Simchas Torah, is certainly an
> established minhag, and not "shtick".»
>
> Maybe so but it's not what I was taught
>
> I was taught EG @ Belz School that acharei Mos triggered this trope as a form of mourning for sh'nei B'nei Aharon - see EG Rashi.
>
> That's why by YK Mincha we don't use this niggun so as NOT to whine about the issur Arayot.
>
> «Sefer Divrei Shalom (by the mekubal R"S Sharabi).»
>
> Do S'phardim have a special YN trope?
>
> --------------------
>
> I find using a tune to invoke solemnity and mourning as an unlikely candidate for continuing the spirit of YN on Simchas Torah  Hoshana Rabba would make more sense ali pi ho'Arizal. But I've heard stranger things.
>
> «Unfortunately this evolved to a point where people sing other tunes,
> which is silly.»
>
> As far as  tunes go, Yekkes have Jahres melodies which are a meddley of year-'round occasions, many of these have been in print over 150 years.
>
> Shalom
> RRW
> Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

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[rabbiri...@gmail.com]

MG:
«I can't speak to what you were taught at Belz, but there is a Teshuvas

Chasam Sofer (I'll have to find it) who was asked how we can change
the tunes the way we do from the "regular" Torah reading to what we do
in the Haftorah, Megillos, Yamim Noraim, etc.
The answer he gives is that the tunes may not be the same, but the

"shapes" of the notes are always the same (I think his words are "a zarka always 'sounds' like a zarka")but we change the melody to
invoke a certain feeling or emotion. »

I've said this myself re: yekke trope vs. East European trope.
But who says we CHANGE?! Maybe the tunes were all equally ancient?!

«He says it is well-known (?)

that the neveim sang their nevuos to klal yisrael using trup, and we try to invoke that in our haftaros; Esther is a happy tune, and Eicha

is a mournful tune;»

Yet we use Eicha tune during Esther, Hazzon and assof asifeim...


« the megillos are also joyful, and Yomim Noraim are
not sad or mournful, but_solemn_.»

Maybe so - but does not explain YK Minchah

Also why RH I is NOT mournful, one can make. Case for the Aqeidah on RHII as being mournful

EG The German "Aqeidah" s'lichot melody is quite mournful - almost a "whine".

[MG]

You need to show me a makor for what you are saying about the tune
being mournful and mourning Aharon's sons, I have never heard or seen
that. Just tell me where I can look that up. And as far as
transferring tunes to Rosh Hashana; that seems highly unlikely.
And it's one thing to say it was transferred to Rosh Hashanah, but
then to skip over all of Sukkos and transplant the tune to Simchas
Torah of all places, that seems even more unlikely.

I already showed you mekoros for leining the tune on Simchas Torah as
being solemn, not mournful, and connecting to the Yomim Noraim.

As far as Hashem Hashem, I'm not sure what that has to do with
anything. We do it on a Taanis only; whatever reason you'll give me
for that is the same reason I have. Not sure what that has to do with
what we are discussing. But are those tunes meant to invoke something
mournful in those places? It seems to me those are solemn events!

I've only seen mafter done with the same Yomim Noraim tune, but for
those who don't, it seems simple why they wouldn't -- that is just the
korbanos hayom and are not commemorating solemn events.

As far as YK mincha, the sefer Sichos Chachamim brings a similar
reason to what you say, that the tune sounds like a cry...but not a
cry of sadness, a cry of pleading and bakasha...nevertheless we don't
want it to sound like we are crying over arayos.

The Teshuvas Chasam Sofer is in Chelek 6 Siman 86.....his quote is
that on Yamim Noraim the tune reflects "k'Omaid nidon lifnei
haMelech"..........

> For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/leining?hl=en.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[rabbiri...@gmail.com]

MG

«You need to show me a makor for what you are saying about the tune

being mournful and mourning Aharon's sons, I have never heard or seen

that.»

I gave you the Maqor viz. Belz School Cantor Noah Schall was the teacher at that time

The invocation for mourning the sons of Aharon is a midrash which I can furnish you..



«Just tell me where I can look that up. And as far as
transferring tunes to Rosh Hashana; that seems highly unlikely»

Well the Aqeida works as is. And it's not unlikely at all in my experience.

EG aqdamut melody in qiddush of YT due to phrase asher bachar banu mikkal am. This is actually a fairly common technique...


.
«And it's one thing to say it was transferred to Rosh Hashanah, but

then to skip over all of Sukkos and transplant the tune to Simchas

Torah of all places, that seems even more unlikely.»

Exactly so - that's why it makes no sense to me as other than shtick! In fact that's my proof it IS shticl!

But tell me why YK minchah is NOT solemn?! No answer yet!

[MG]

I answered you about YK mincha. It IS a solemn time but we don't want
to appear to be crying over Arayos, so we don't use the tune. Read my
reply.

P.S. Cantor Noah Schall isn't a makor. Please just give me a sefer.
I've given you the Teshuvoas Chasam Sofer who says the tune is
solemn. Maybe this professor can show you a makor? If there is a
medrash I'd be glad to see it.

And What kind of shtick is it to use a mournful tune? Does anyone use
the Eicha tune as "shtick"?

I've pointed you to seforim who are clear it isn't shtick, that it is
connected to Yomim Noraim, and to others who say that the tune on
Yomim Noraim is solemn.
Let's work with what we have inside the seforim. Anyone can say that a
professor told them something; perhaps you have the truth, I just want
to see it.

You have Cantor Noah Schall and your own guesswork, working backwards,
that the tune is shtick. I have seforim that the tune is not shtick.
Again, I am open to other options, just want to see it.

> > For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/leining?hl=en.-Hide quoted text -

[rabbiri...@gmail.com]

MG:
«I answered you about YK mincha. It IS a solemn time but we don't want
to appear to be crying over Arayos, so we don't use the tune.»

OK so solemn does equal crying or not?

We can agree to disagree

For Midrash see FIRST Torah Temimah in Acharei Mot
Baed on Y'rushalmi Yoma 1:5

Let me go over this once more

YK - it's important to invoke crying over the death of Tzaddiqqim [the crying is not in Yerushalmi but is implicit in the commentary]. It's not the vicarious atonement that is m'chapeir but our sense of loss of tzaddiqim.


Now as it was tuaght to me RH got the niggun from YK

Possibly for RHII the Aqeidah might trigger the same motif

YK minchah is excluded davqa to avoid the perception of whining over Arayot

My sources are from Belz School - Cantor Noah Schall - Advanced cantillation.

I suspect that Idelsohn and/or Cantor Macy Nulman's Encyclopedia of Jewish Music might give more information

I knew of no source for YN tune for Simchat Torah until now, and was certainly not something I grew uo with.

The reason for V'zot Habrachah having this tune might be the Death of Moshe paralleing death of Nadav and Avihu. I simply don't know

And I'm not trying to win a contest, I'm presenting my understanding based upon 35+ years. Take it FWIW.

[MG]

Who said it was a contest? We're both after the truth, I would hope.

Yes solemn does equal crying. But you said it was a "mournful" crying
over Misas Tzadikim, and I'm saying that is not what the Chasam Sofer
says, that it is more something fearful, as standing before
judgement. Both types of crying would work for not leining the tune
at mincha.

I never said your reason couldn't be valid, I'm just looking for
sources. Surely these professors had sources? Hopefully you learned
something from the sources I brought that the simchas torah leining is
not simply shtick; I'm only asking for the opportunity to learn from
you.

[rabbiri...@gmail.com]

Look I have a model based upon things I've learned over the years.

The different facets dovetail together well for me - that's called GESTALT.

It's not infallible, and I never heard it challenged before,
I certainly see that there are possibly other models.

[Akiva Blum]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: lei...@googlegroups.com
> [mailto:lei...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of MG

> Re reading upside down, however, that doesn't seem to me like one
> would be yotzei, but I'm not a posek.
>
>

I recall hearing a shiur from Rav Yitzchok Zilberstein regarding a man who had
learnt to read together with other boys from only one sefer. His position was
from the top side, so the only way he could comfortably read was upside down.
The shaila was if he could read from the Torah with the sefer Torah upside down.
If I recall correctly, Rav Zilberstein felt is was bizayon for the sefer Torah.
However, I don't recall the that wouldn't be considered reading.

Akiva

[Sammy Noe]

Taken to the nth degree, yes: I have always said that the musical element of k'riah is almost negligible, especially when compared to the trops' function as punctuation.   I've often taught extremely off key boys their full sidreh, and it is always astonishing how quickly the lack of musicality is not even noticed - let alone forgotten - if the boy is prepared properly.   There are many actors and actresses whose speaking voice is/are unpleasant; good acting always removes that unpleasantness: Gregory Peck is not an exception, as he couldn't act!

Regards   Sammy  --- On Sun, 11/7/10, rabbiri...@gmail.com <rabbiri...@gmail.com> wrote:

From: rabbiri...@gmail.com <rabbiri...@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [leining] Re: YAMIM NORAIM TROP To: "Leining" <lei...@googlegroups.com>

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[Zev Sero]

Akiva Blum wrote:
> The shaila was if he could read from the Torah with the sefer Torah upside down.
> If I recall correctly, Rav Zilberstein felt is was bizayon for the sefer Torah.
> However, I don't recall the that wouldn't be considered reading.

I should point out that I don't turn the sefer upside-down; I move to
the back of the bimah and stand on a chair, while the olim (by the second
round we're usually calling up large groups at a time) stand in front of
it.

--
Zev Sero The trouble with socialism is that you

z...@sero.name eventually run out of other people�s money
- Margaret Thatcher

[Zev Sero]

rabbiri...@gmail.com wrote:
> MG

>> �Just tell me where I can look that up. And as far as
>> transferring tunes to Rosh Hashana; that seems highly unlikely�

> Well the Aqeida works as is. And it's not unlikely at all in my experience.
> EG aqdamut melody in qiddush of YT due to phrase asher bachar banu mikkal
> am. This is actually a fairly common technique...

And the melody of "Eli Tzion" is echoed in "bnei veis'cho kevat'chilo"
in Yomtov musaf.

Other things also transfer. Yizkor is originally confined to the days
when we read "ish kematnas yodo" (which is never read in EY). It was
then "transferred" to Yom Kippur because it seemed appropriate ("how
can we do it on Shmini Atzeres and not on Yom Kippur?") and perhaps
also because there are more people to raise pledges from. And in EY
it was transferred to the first days of yomtov (except by the Yekkers
who follow R Hamburg) because "better then than never".

[Nehemiah Klein]

I believe regarding Yizkor it was the opposite - it began on Yom Kippur as asking kapara for the neshamos and then was transferred to Yom Tov when we read ish kematnas yado for fundraising purposes.  I believe Sephardim only say it on Yom Kippur.  What you are right about is that it was "transferred over" to Eretz Yisrael where it is never read.

On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 2:09 PM, Zev Sero <z...@sero.name> wrote:

rabbiri...@gmail.com wrote:

MG

«Just tell me where I can look that up.  And as far as
transferring tunes to Rosh Hashana; that seems highly unlikely»

Well the Aqeida works as is.  And it's not unlikely at all in my experience.   EG aqdamut melody in qiddush of YT due to phrase asher bachar banu mikkal
am.  This is actually a fairly common technique...

And the melody of "Eli Tzion" is echoed in "bnei veis'cho kevat'chilo"
in Yomtov musaf.

Other things also transfer.  Yizkor is originally confined to the days
when we read "ish kematnas yodo" (which is never read in EY).  It was
then "transferred" to Yom Kippur because it seemed appropriate ("how
can we do it on Shmini Atzeres and not on Yom Kippur?") and perhaps
also because there are more people to raise pledges from.  And in EY
it was transferred to the first days of yomtov (except by the Yekkers
who follow R Hamburg) because "better then than never".

--
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you

z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people’s money
                                                   - Margaret Thatcher

[Giorgies E. Kepipesiom]

On Jul 12, 7:09 am, Zev Sero <z...@sero.name> wrote:
>
> And the melody of "Eli Tzion" is echoed in "bnei veis'cho kevat'chilo"
> in Yomtov musaf.
>

You are right of course. It is remarkable that in all my seven decades
of praying the shalosh regalim prayers, I never realised this
connection.

> Other things also transfer.  Yizkor is originally confined to the days
> when we read "ish kematnas yodo" (which is never read in EY).

Never? Do thay not read parasha Re'eh on the apropriate Shabbos in EY?

 It was
> then "transferred" to Yom Kippur because it seemed appropriate ("how
> can we do it on Shmini Atzeres and not on Yom Kippur?") and perhaps
> also because there are more people to raise pledges from.

Who did this transferring? And how did this transfer become so
universally observed? Is there any shule anywhere in the Ashkanas
world where Yiskor is not said on YK?

 And in EY
> it was transferred to the first days of yomtov (except by the Yekkers
> who follow R Hamburg) because "better then than never".

So when do the R. Hamburg people say Yiskor in EY? Never?

GEK

[Zev Sero]

Giorgies E. Kepipesiom wrote:
> On Jul 12, 7:09 am, Zev Sero <z...@sero.name> wrote:

>> Other things also transfer. Yizkor is originally confined to the days
>> when we read "ish kematnas yodo" (which is never read in EY).
>
> Never? Do thay not read parasha Re'eh on the apropriate Shabbos in EY?

Of course they do, but that's not an occasion for yizkor.

>> And in EY
>> it was transferred to the first days of yomtov (except by the Yekkers

>> who follow R Hamburger) because "better then than never".
>
> So when do the R. Hamburger people say Yiskor in EY? Never?

Only on Yom Kippur, as far as I know.

[Meir BenChayim]

 
>
> On Jul 12, 7:09 am, Zev Sero <z...@sero.name> wrote:
 >
> > Other things also transfer.  Yizkor is originally confined to the days
> > when we read "ish kematnas yodo" (which is never read in EY).
  

>  It was
> > then "transferred" to Yom Kippur because it seemed appropriate ("how
> > can we do it on Shmini Atzeres and not on Yom Kippur?") and perhaps
> > also because there are more people to raise pledges from.
 

     I believe the transfer was in the opposite direction.   The RMA (621:6) mentions hazkarat neshamot with regard to Yom Kippur, because they, too, have kappara on YK.  (It's a reason given for calling it Yom Hakippurim, in the plural, kappara lachyim v'lameitim.)  There is no mention of hazkarat neshamot on the regalim.
 
Meir    

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[Richard Wolpoe]

On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 7:10 AM, Nehemiah Klein <kle...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I believe regarding Yizkor it was the opposite - it began on Yom Kippur as
> asking kapara for the neshamos and then was transferred to Yom Tov when we
> read ish kematnas yado for fundraising purposes.  I believe Sephardim only
> say it on Yom Kippur.  What you are right about is that it was "transferred
> over" to Eretz Yisrael where it is never read.

This is correct it started on YK and was transferred to the occasion
of Matnat yad
The origin of matnat yad is about pledges. The Yizkor on yamim Tovim
originally was nothing more than pledges in memory of hte departed.
think of it as a fund-Raiser. originally it was never meant to be
mournful or sad.

While on YK yizkor effected a kapparah for the departed n'shamot.
They're really apples and oranges and have gotten blurred

in fact Rabbi Aryeh Moshen was the first to tell that yizkor sated on
YK. It is confirmed by Artscroll. Rabbi E. Kanarfogel is the source
for most of the rest of my post.

Only Yekkes still maintain the Matnat Yad procedure

--
Shalom uVRacha
RabbiRi...@Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nishma-Minhag/

[Zev Sero]

Meir BenChayim wrote:
> On Jul 12, 7:09 am, Zev Sero <z...@sero.name> wrote:

>> Other things also transfer. Yizkor is originally confined to the days
>> when we read "ish kematnas yodo" (which is never read in EY).
>> It was then "transferred" to Yom Kippur

> I believe the transfer was in the opposite direction. The RMA
> (621:6) mentions hazkarat neshamot with regard to Yom Kippur, because
> they, too, have kappara on YK. (It's a reason given for calling it Yom
> Hakippurim, in the plural, kappara lachyim v'lameitim.) There is no
> mention of hazkarat neshamot on the regalim.

That makes sense. Another thing that transferred from YK to the three
regalim is "Adir Adirenu".

[Richard Wolpoe]

On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 3:04 AM, Nehemiah Klein <kle...@gmail.com> wrote:
> YOM KIPPUR MINCHA:  As far as I know the reason we do not use the yomim
> noraim trop for Yom Kippur Mincha has nothing to do with the content.  the
> Kriah for Mincha is not generated by Yom Kippur but by the fact that it is a
> fast day - proofs: the brachos of the haftarah end at "Magen David" without
> a bracha for the day.  Also I believe (don't quote me on this) that one who
> is not fasting on Yom Kippur (e.g. health reasons) may get an aliyah at
> Shacharis since the kriah is generated by the kedushas hayom, while at
> Mincha he does not get one since it is generated by the fact that it is a
> Ta'anis (3 aliyos, shlishi reads the haftarah, etc.).  For that reason we
> use the ordinary trop and not yomim noraim.
>

ODD to say this because on a regular fast day the 3 publicly read
p'suqqim DO use the Yamim noraim melody!

But I was taught by many that we don't wish to "whine" during the
Arayot and hence we drop the YN melody. Nafqa minah? it's not only
unnecessary to read with YN melody, it's wrong to do so

The nature of this YK Minchah reading is hotly debated. My favorite
explanation is perhaps the simplest - namely in Mishnah Taanit this
was a time of shidduchim. As Such the rules of who is a proper
shidduch were read.

it could be the REASON for reading anything was indeed trigered by the
fast. but I'm not certain. EG we read this even when YK is on Shabbat
and not the regular reading. The reason for the haftara indeed is
probably due to the fast day. And that is self-evident from the
haftarah itself

[MG]

The issue of reading the last brocha for the Haftorah on Mincha of Y"K
is right there in Shulchan Oruch. See the Rama.O"CH Siman 622.
See also Biur HaGRA there S"K 8, who explains that the Haftorah is
generated by the Taanis.
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14327&st=&pgnum=344&hilite=
As far a Choleh etc getting an Aliyah at Mincha see Teshuvas R' Akiva
Eigar Siman 24 and Marcheshes Siman 14.
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=1462&st=&pgnum=81



On Jul 12, 9:27 am, Richard Wolpoe <rabbirichwol...@gmail.com> wrote:

> RabbiRichWol...@Gmail.com
> see:http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nishma-Minhag/

[Zev Sero]

MG wrote:
> The issue of reading the last brocha for the Haftorah on Mincha of Y"K
> is right there in Shulchan Oruch. See the Rama.O"CH Siman 622.

The SA says you do say it, the Rama says you don't.

> See also Biur HaGRA there S"K 8, who explains that the Haftorah is
> generated by the Taanis.

If the haftoroh is generated by the taanis, then why do Sefardim say it?
Unless the idea that it's generated by the taanis is purely an Ashkenazi
one, which is why we don't say the last bracha, whereas Sefardim do.

[MG]

Yes, it is a machlokes Mechaber and Rama.
I don't understand your question about Sefardim though, everyone seems
to agree that the origin of the Haftorah is because of the Taanis.
The reason why we don't say the last brocha during a regular taanis is
because there is no kedushas Hayom, but Yom Kippuer has Kedushas
Hayom. That seems to be the Mechaber's view. The GRA is explaining
the Rama's view, that the haftrah is unrelated to kedushas hayom.
The Marcheshes deals with whether the Krias Hatorah is also related to
kedushas hayom or not.

[Zev Sero]

MG wrote:
> Yes, it is a machlokes Mechaber and Rama.
> I don't understand your question about Sefardim though, everyone seems
> to agree that the origin of the Haftorah is because of the Taanis.

How can everyone agree on that? If it were generated by the Taanis,

then why do Sefardim say it?

> The reason why we don't say the last brocha during a regular taanis is
> because there is no kedushas Hayom, but Yom Kippuer has Kedushas
> Hayom. That seems to be the Mechaber's view.

That makes no sense. What is the Mechaber contrasting this haftarah
with? When, according to the Mechaber, does one *ever* say a haftarah
without the last bracha?

[MG]

I'm sorry, I just don't understand. This seems very straightforward.

Yom Kippur is a Taanis. We say Haftorah on a Taanis. Therefore
everyone, including Sefardim, say the Haftorah.

According to the Mechaber, on a regular Taanis we say the Haftorah
without the last bracha, since a regular Taanis has no kedushas Hayom.

[rabbiri...@gmail.com]

«Chasan Torah -                         yomim noraim»

As I posted earlier
Perhaps
Death of Moshe equates to death of Nadav and Avihu
Namely "mitat tzadiqim"

This would simply explain Hattan Torah

[One girsa is HattaM Torah the one who seals the Torah]

Sheyibaneh Bhm

[Zev Sero]

MG wrote:
> I'm sorry, I just don't understand. This seems very straightforward.
>
> Yom Kippur is a Taanis. We say Haftorah on a Taanis.

We Ashkenazim say one. Since when do Sefardim do so?

> According to the Mechaber, on a regular Taanis we say the Haftorah
> without the last bracha

Where does the Mechaber say any such thing? On the contrary, the
Mechaber doesn't say anything about how many brachos to say after
the haftarah on a normal taanis, because he says nothing about such
a haftarah in the first place.

[MG]

Interesting take. Never heard of "Chasam Torah". Wouldn't it be
"Choteim" Torah??? Also, clearly there is no Chatam Bereishis.

Don't follow how Misas Tzadikim is related to Chason Torah though?

[rabbiri...@gmail.com]

Sammy
«I have always said that the musical element of k'riah is almost negligible, especially when compared to the trops' function as punctuation.»

Sounds like black-and-white thinking

Stops count - music doesn't

All tropes the same

Very flatline to me

Like black-and-white TV

Iirc Breuer's lains Tisha B'av sans melody

Who wants the whole year to feel like tisha B'av?

Sheyibaneh bhm

[MG]

> We Ashkenazim say one. Since when do Sefardim do so?

The Mechaber says "VHashlishi Maftir BYonah". It's right there.

> Where does the Mechaber say any such thing? On the contrary, the
> Mechaber doesn't say anything about how many brachos to say after
> the haftarah on a normal taanis, because he says nothing about such
> a haftarah in the first place.

As far as a regular Taanis, you'd have to look in Hilchos Taanis, or
Hilchos Tisha BAv.
It's not even relevant what we do on other Taanesim. Why does there
have to be a contrast.
Let's say he doesn't hold we have haftorah at mincha any other time,
so what? His shita could be that the Taanis and the kedushas Hayom
together require a Haftorah, and we make the last brocha as we do
after every other haftorah.

[rabbiri...@gmail.com]

«You are right of course. It is remarkable that in all my seven decades

of praying the shalosh regalim prayers, I never realised this

connection.»


These motifs are the kinds of things taught at Belz school or any good Cantorial Conservatory.

Virtually every motif is there for a Reason, although occasionally we have forgotten the precise nature of that reason.

To me the specificity of nusach parallels that of the trope.

EG Teimanim have no duplicates in vowels nor in consonants. Each is unique. Their traditions are respected as having these distinctions

Similarly German customs have very specific nusachot for each occasion. Quite distinct.

Shalom

[MG]

> EG Teimanim have no duplicates in vowels nor in consonants. Each is unique. Their traditions are respected as having these distinctions

I believe even Teimanim have no distinction between "samech" and
"sin".

[Zev Sero]

MG wrote:
>> We Ashkenazim say one. Since when do Sefardim do so?
>
> The Mechaber says "VHashlishi Maftir BYonah". It's right there.

Irrelevant. Your claim was that everyone says a haftarah at mincha
on a taanis. AFAIK that claim is simply untrue.

>> Where does the Mechaber say any such thing? On the contrary, the
>> Mechaber doesn't say anything about how many brachos to say after
>> the haftarah on a normal taanis, because he says nothing about such
>> a haftarah in the first place.
>
> As far as a regular Taanis, you'd have to look in Hilchos Taanis, or
> Hilchos Tisha BAv.
> It's not even relevant what we do on other Taanesim.

Huh? It's elementary logic. If the taanis is what generates the
mincha haftarah on YK, then it must be the case that on a taanis one
says a haftarah at mincha. Since Sefardim don't, the proposition
must be untrue. Hence my suggestion that this proposition can be
rescued by positing that it holds only for Ashkenazim. In other
words, both A and S say a haftarah at mincha on YK, but for separate
reasons. It's a stretch, but it's the only way to rescue the claim
that the taanis causes the haftarah.

> Why does there have to be a contrast.

You're the one who claimed this contrast existed in the first place.

> Let's say he doesn't hold we have haftorah at mincha any other time,
> so what? His shita could be that the Taanis and the kedushas Hayom
> together require a Haftorah

This makes no sense whatsoever. What have the two got to do with
each other, that they should work together in this way?

[Zev Sero]

MG wrote:
>> EG Teimanim have no duplicates in vowels nor in consonants. Each is unique. Their traditions are respected as having these distinctions
>
> I believe even Teimanim have no distinction between "samech" and
> "sin".

And while Temanim do theoretically have a distinction between patoch
and sagol, it's not a distinction that most of them can pronounce in
practice.

[MG]

I think we're getting at the same thing. The Gra's reason is to
explain the Rema only, not the mechaber. I was proposing an
explanation for the mechaber, under the assumption that sefardim have
a reguar haftorah for a taanis. I honestly didn't know sefardim don't
have a regular taanis haftorah, so that was a wrong assumption, but I
simply _suggested_ that even if they don't, which might be true,
perhaps the confluence of the two require a haftorah according to
Sefardim. I don't think that's more of a stretch than your stretch.

So what is your suggestion according to sefardim as to why there is a
haftorah here?

[Zev Sero]

MG wrote:

> So what is your suggestion according to sefardim as to why there is a
> haftorah here?

Obviously kedushas hayom.

[MG]

But then why is there no haftorah at mincha on the other Regalim?

[MG]

Obviously we don't lein at mincha on Regalim but why on Yom Kippur do
we lein at Mincha then? In other words all regalim have kedushas
Hayom, they should be equal

> >                                                      - Margaret Thatcher- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Zev Sero]

MG wrote:
> But then why is there no haftorah at mincha on the other Regalim?

There's no krias hatorah in the first place!

[Zev Sero]

MG wrote:
> Obviously we don't lein at mincha on Regalim but why on Yom Kippur do
> we lein at Mincha then? In other words all regalim have kedushas
> Hayom, they should be equal

The krias hatorah is caused by the fast. The haftarah is caused by

[MG]

But then sefardim should lein on a regular taanis?

My point is that Yom Kippur has a higher Kedushas Hayom then regalim;
fasting is what shows that to be the case.
Because of the confluence of the two, they lein and read haftorah.

[rabbiri...@gmail.com]

Zev:
«Another thing that transferred from YK to the three

regalim is "Adir Adirenu".

--

Zev Sero»

And probably some of the Yamim Noraim motifs for tal and geshen as "y'mei din"

EG IIRC Breuer's adds 2nd l'eila to qaddish before tal and geshem

We also used the YN melodies for hachnassat hatorah [einheben]

I also took liberties with the nusach and used shalosh r'galim melodies for hotz'ah on

Shabbat -
rosh Hodesh, Hanukkah,
and Hol Hadmoed
As extensions of r'galim

Also I used YN hotza'ah on Shabbat Shuvah

These were "soft" innovations in that they were predicated on existing structures.
I think they were congruent to the themes.

The Arizal apparently used YN melodies or motifs on Hoshana Rabba. Same reasoning

[rabbiri...@gmail.com]

MG:
«I believe even Teimanim have no distinction between "samech" and
"sin".»

Hatati!

RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

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[Zev Sero]

MG wrote:
> But then sefardim should lein on a regular taanis?

They do lein. But they don't say a haftarah.

[rabbiri...@gmail.com]

I don't know exactly what triggers the Leining and haftara on YK mincha

But it seems to me that their themes are different

The leining is about arayot - and my best guess has to do with Mishna Taanit that this was to cover which shidduchin were "kosher" there are Many other s'varot of course

B'pashtut the haftarah is about t'shuvah and even fasting, and like the haftarah of the morning, to teach that fasting is NOT the iqqar but changing one's behavior - such is the midrash aggadah on Yonah. IE Hashem saw their deeds...

For me this needs more research, EG were there different Gaonic customs etc.?

The structure of the birkot haftarah omits Q'dushat Hayom, and this may be telling.

And while we say the Mussaph Q'dushah at Mincha, we do not use the nusach of the morning hotz'aah, rather the nusach of Shabbat afternoon etc. And only 3 aliyyot.

[rabbiri...@gmail.com]

MG
«Don't follow how Misas Tzadikim is related to Chason Torah though?»

Chosson Torah reads the death of Mosher rabbeinu

That MIGHT explain the use of YN trope
In parallel to death of nadav vaavihu?

Have you seen the first Torah Temima in Acharei Mos? It has the basic predicate about Misas tzadiqim

Sheyibaneh Bhm

[MG]

I've seen it but he doesn't link anything to the use of the tune, just
the text of the kriah. The ideas I brought yesterday are where
seforim specifically link the leining tune to the theme of aimas
hadin.
Again, your explanation sounds reasonable to me, I've only asked for a
source. I like to see things inside a book, if I can.

It's funny that you are suggesting that the tune is related to the
death of Moshe, I saw another sefer brings down that there is a minhag
to use the yomim noraim tune specfically only UNTIL "Meonah", and not
for Chasan Torah. Not sure why.

[rabbiri...@gmail.com]

MG:
«I've seen it but he doesn't link anything to the use of the tune, just

the text of the kriah. The ideas I brought yesterday are where
seforim specifically link the leining tune to the theme of aimas
hadin.
Again, your explanation sounds reasonable to me, I've only asked for a

source. I like to see things inside a book, if I can.»

All I can say is that the instructors said that this melody was designed to invoke mourning over misas [mitat] tzaddiqim.

«but he doesn't link anything to the use of the tune, »

To me that is enough to connect the dots I don't need the Torah Temimah to take it all the way.

I guess others want to have every step in writing...

Shalom

[MG]

Of course, if I didn't have the Teshuvas Chasam Sofer I might have
drawn the same conclusions as you.
I don't think anyone needs all the dots connected, but when something
is explicit we should rethink our prior assumptions
Eilu Veilu divrei Elokim Chaim

[rabbiri...@gmail.com]

MG:
«when something

is explicit we should rethink our prior assumptions

Eilu Veilu divrei Elokim Chaim»

To me re-thinking simply means there is another point of view [pov]. It does not imply to me in this case that any of the assumptions I've had were any less valid.

Now we get to the area of "idea framing"

most people see the 2nd version as a revision of the first

EG the 2 texts of the 10 dibrot or the 2 stories of the meraglim.

At any rate if I had worked the chassam sofer first and made everything fit based upon it - fine

From what I saw quoted the CS was giving a s'vara not an absolute.

Frankly, I hardly think he would have objected to this alternate version.

But I might be wrong.

Given what I've learned, I would have asked the CS myself how about seeing it this way?...

Shalom,

[Sammy Noe]

See responses below. --- On Mon, 12/7/10, rabbiri...@gmail.com <rabbiri...@gmail.com> wrote:

From: rabbiri...@gmail.com <rabbiri...@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [leining] Re: YAMIM NORAIM TROP To: "Leining" <lei...@googlegroups.com> Date: Monday, 12 July, 2010, 15:11 Sammy «I have always said that the musical element of k'riah is almost negligible, especially when compared to the trops' function as punctuation.» Sounds like black-and-white thinking

I'm nearly 58; black and white went out almost 40 years ago: but there is a template, and that template was never given over to adjustments on a willy nilly basis - have you heard/learned anywhere that that sounds MUST change for individual situations or seasons: all one reads is poskim writing that this is what's has transpired; that isn't a rulinh, and if you want to call it minhag hamokoim, I cannot subscribe to the idea that any self indulgent change to the music thought up on the spur of the moment so that "I don't get bored leining/hearing it" is a minhog with legs, unless it's to the exit.

Stops count - music doesn't

I didn't say music does not count, I said it's negligible: perhaps if miraculous events occur simultaneously, globally, and people suddenly get to regard the punctuation aspect of the trop as valid and valuable, the musical element can also rise in function and value: currently no attention is paid to the punctuation, so much less attention should be paid to the music for the sake of the punctuation.   It's very much like the wierd preference and dominance of Yiddish over Hebrew and English for speeches/d'roshes/sermaons in shuls etc. All tropes the same   One of the best things about Blues music, is the way the same song can be performed in so many different ways by so many singers specialising in so many different genres - I recognise that and glory in it (my playlists often have up to 12 different versions of the same song); but until the trrop is treated with much greater respect in terms of their punctuation function, the time spent on their music is so much better spent on their phrasing. Very flatline to me   I'll bet your TV is!!! Like black-and-white TV   See my note above about how black and white I am.

Iirc Breuer's lains Tisha B'av sans melody Who wants the whole year to feel like tisha B'av? Sheyibaneh bhm RRW Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

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[Michael Gutmann]

> Iirc Breuer's lains Tisha B'av sans melody
>

Well, it's a dirge-like tune that is used for all of davening on Tisha
B'Av, the haftora, as well as for many of the kinos. So I wouldn't
say it's sans melody, but a very mournful low-key melody.

[Meir BenChayim]

     R. Breuer z"l used to spend summers together with many members of his kehilla in Tannersville.  They were the vast majority in the shul, the gabbaim were from the kehilla, and I assume it was their nusach that was used.  I remember in particular one kinna, in which alternate stanzas end "b'tzeti miMitzrayim" and "b'tzeiti miYerushalayim."  The former were song with a joyous lilt, the latter with a dirgeful tune.
 
Meir
 
> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 07:01:02 -0700
> Subject: [leining] Re: YAMIM NORAIM TROP
> From: mjgu...@gmail.com
> To: lei...@googlegroups.com

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[rabbiri...@gmail.com]

«have you heard/learned anywhere that that sounds MUST change for individual situations or seasons: all one reads is poskim writing that this is what's has transpired;»

And this is what that has been accepted

EG we sang Esther "vayitlu es haman" to a yekke melody which I'm told is also used for d'vay hasseir

WADR, This sounds like rupture and reconstruction in imposing very narrow limitations in the face of diverse traditions.

I think such lines drawn in the sand are parochial or provincial.

I certainly would not enter Breuer's with an attempt to Yeshiva-ize their davening and vice versa I wouldn't expect Yeshivot to start adding edifying melodies!

Although when I was at Ner Israel they did replace reciting l'cha dodi to singing it merely a few years earlier. And no lightening struck!

Same for Keil Adon.

I'm a native Litvak but Yeshivishe davening has little taam. I find Breuer's far more inspiring and congruent with Western Judaism

My twopence
[I have a few farthings more!]

[Isaac Friedman]

I remember in particular one kinna, in which alternate stanzas end "b'tzeti miMitzrayim" and "b'tzeiti miYerushalayim."  The former were song with a joyous lilt, the latter with a dirgeful tune.

I know they did that in Telz, Cleveland. Is it originally a Yekke thing?

On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 10:50 AM, Meir BenChayim <mei...@hotmail.com> wrote:

     R. Breuer z"l used to spend summers together with many members of his kehilla in Tannersville.  They were the vast majority in the shul, the gabbaim were from the kehilla, and I assume it was their nusach that was used.
 

Meir
 
> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 07:01:02 -0700
> Subject: [leining] Re: YAMIM NORAIM TROP
> From: mjgu...@gmail.com
> To: lei...@googlegroups.com

>
>
> > Iirc Breuer's lains Tisha B'av sans melody
> >
>
> Well, it's a dirge-like tune that is used for all of davening on Tisha
> B'Av, the haftora, as well as for many of the kinos. So I wouldn't
> say it's sans melody, but a very mournful low-key melody.
>
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[rabbiri...@gmail.com]

I know they did that in Telz, Cleveland. Is it originally a Yekke thing?»

Telze [Telshe] adopted several yekke minhggim including z'miros, so I've been told. Apparently one of the Roshei Yeshiva sojourned thru Germany andb picked it up

I had the same epipaphamy when I went to Breuer's and felt that this was the most authentic nusach ashkenaz I know

Shalom

RRW

Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

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From: Isaac Friedman <ifrie...@gmail.com>

Sender: lei...@googlegroups.com

Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 17:53:50 -0400

To: <lei...@googlegroups.com>

ReplyTo: lei...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [leining] Re: YAMIM NORAIM TROP

[Michael Gutmann]

I attended a shiur yesterday by Rabbi Yonason Sacks and he mentioned
that R' Akiva Eiger writes in a teshuva that the morning leining of YK
is driven by the Kedushas HaYom while the mincha leining is driven by
the fact that it is a taanis tzibur and we always lein at mincha of a
taanis tzibur, although the leining is different than the normal TT
leining. (R' Akiva Eiger mentioned this regarding a question of
giving an aliyah on YK to someone who isn't fasting. Based on the
above, he can receive an aliyah at shacharis but not at mincha.)

He then cited the Rav who used this teshuva to explain why we lein YN
trop at shacharis but with regular trop at mincha. He also said that
this explains the shitta of the Rema that we leave out the beracha of
Al HaTorah after the haftorah at mincha on YK, as it is a taanis
haftora and not a YK haftorah.

-Michael-

[Aryeh Moshen]

I wonder if he had never heard Rabbi Joseph B. Soloveitchik z"l say otherwise. 

----- Original Message ----
From: Michael Gutmann <mjgu...@gmail.com>
To: leining <lei...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thu, July 15, 2010 10:09:09 AM
Subject: [leining] Re: YAMIM NORAIM TROP

-Michael-

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