Esther and Eicha
Gideon
I recently joined this list after stumbling across it somewhere or
another.
Does anyone have sources for which verses of megillat esther are read
in nusach eicha? The lists that I've seen have mostly overlapped when
stating which verses, but none of them says where they got that
tradition from. Obviously it's thematic. But one list says 7:3 is
included but not 7:4. Another says it's only the last few words of 7:3
and then the first half of 7:4, v'chulei.
Similar question: most trop in Esther we hear often enough - dozens of
times a year - to 'know' what it sounds like even though each leiner
will do it slightly differently. I would say that's not the case with
galgal-pazer gadol / yerach ben yomo-karnei fara, which we only hear
twice a year and it's likely to be read by someone different this year
than last. Other than scouring the internet, where does one come up
with a basic formula for these rare trop (from which one may
stylistically depart, of course)?
Thanks
Gideon
Michael Stein
> Similar question: most trop in Esther we hear often enough - dozens of
> times a year - to 'know' what it sounds like
Well, we hear them dozens of times once a year (well, twice, if
you attend both an evening and morning reading). The question is, do
you have a good enough musical memory to reproduce it the following
year?
> even though each leiner
> will do it slightly differently. I would say that's not the case with
> galgal-pazer gadol / yerach ben yomo-karnei fara, which we only hear
> twice a year and it's likely to be read by someone different this year
> than last. Other than scouring the internet, where does one come up
> with a basic formula for these rare trop (from which one may
> stylistically depart, of course)?
Allow me to scour the Internet for you.
If you don't care for that style, there is also the Trope Trainer
computer software:
http://www.kinnor.com/buy-trope-trainer.html
and a book with sheet music (and optional audio) available from
http://chadishmedia.com (click on "How to Lain Trop Course" on the left)
Josh Hosseinof
>
> Does anyone have sources for which verses of megillat esther are read
> in nusach eicha? The lists that I've seen have mostly overlapped when
> stating which verses, but none of them says where they got that
> tradition from. Obviously it's thematic. But one list says 7:3 is
> included but not 7:4. Another says it's only the last few words of 7:3
> and then the first half of 7:4, v'chulei.
>
the authoritative source for questions like this) says the following:
Mention should be made that the Ashkenazim felt it necessary to
embellish this mode musically, in order to emphasize important
passages in the text. Those which express pain were intoned in the
mode of Lamentations, while texts of joyous content were sung
according to the popular German folk motives... some passages were
sung according to the Missinai tune (of Hamelech Yoshev from high
holidays). Acording to a Midrashic interpretation Esther 6:1 refers to
the King of the world, to God, who could not be at rest when Israel is
threatened with destruction (footnote: Midrash Esther, chap. 9
beginning; Jonathan on Esther, chap. 6:1). Consequently in this
passage the world "Hammelech" should be chanted according to the
"Hammelech" tune. This custom arose in the 17th century in Prague
(footnote: Noheg Katzon Joseph, Hanau 1718, F. 52b. The author
recounts that he heard "Hammelech" chanted that way for the first time
while he was in Prague in 1700.)
Avram Herzog
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Gideon
Michael Stein pointed me to a few sites...that's what I was hoping to
avoid. Who is Ellie of Ellie Torah? There are a handful of others --
VirtualCantor, a few hassidic websites -- but that pair of trop sounds
only vaguely related between any of the recordings; generally, galgal
gets a little wiggle and drops a fourth or so, and then pazer gadol
hits an octave and comes down stepwise-ish.
The other sites were sources to buy books - nothing with recordings.
Didn't mention my go-to book by Joshua Jacobson, but again -- his
musical notation for those two trop pretty much stands on its own.
Also asks: "Well, we hear them dozens of times once a year (well,
question is, do you have a good enough musical memory to reproduce it
the following year?"
16 of hearing assorted leiners read megilla, I got the sense of what
megila trop sounds like, and when I finally read for the first time at
17, it was just like learning to lein yamim noraim or kohellet --
i.e.: familiar, not like if I tried to learn nusach morocco or iran or
something. But those two notes -- so rare as to not have this apply.
Josh H mentions the 6:1 verse in particular. Jacobson's book brings
that verse and several others as ones that use a special nusach of
malkhut. Is http://zemer.co.il/FlashPlayer/player.asp?version_id=4225
(loads slowly) the one you and they are talking about?
For that verse, I prefer to spice up the first half (balailah hahu
nadedah shnat hammelech) using the Brahms lullaby.
Does Idelsohn give particular pasuk numbers? My specific question is
for a friend reading Ch. 7. After reading it over a few times, and
given the aforementioned handful of sources that mention both 7:3 and
7:4 as "expressing pain", she and I decided that she would do the
second half of 7:3 and the first half of 7:4 with nusach eicha on the
theory that the "v'lu la`avadim l'lishfachot nimkarnu" stuff is kind
of like Dayenu.
shavua tov
Gideon
Michael Stein
> a few responses...
>
> Michael Stein pointed me to a few sites...that's what I was hoping to
> avoid.
Sorry, I thought you were hoping to avoid having to do a Google
search and visit site after site to find one that actually answered
your question. I pointed you to three specific sites that I thought
could help, sites that would allow you to obtain both sheet music and
recordings.
> Who is Ellie of Ellie Torah?
Her name is Ellie Wackerman. I don't know her credentials
> There are a handful of others -- VirtualCantor,
I omitted mention of that because it did the entire chapter rather
than individual ta'amim.
> a few hassidic websites -- but that pair of trop sounds
> only vaguely related between any of the recordings; generally, galgal
> gets a little wiggle and drops a fourth or so, and then pazer gadol
> hits an octave and comes down stepwise-ish.
> The other sites were sources to buy books - nothing with recordings.
That is simply not true of the sites I gave you. Trope Trainer
software will sing the trope for you. The Chadish book can be
purchased with recordings, although it can also be purchased without.
> Didn't mention my go-to book by Joshua Jacobson, but again -- his
> musical notation for those two trop pretty much stands on its own.
I'm confused. Just a few lines earlier, you seemed to be unhappy
because you thought (incorrectly) that the sources I provided didn't
have recordings. But now you mention my omission of a source that
didn't have a recording. Not knowing whether or not you read sheet
music, I limited myself to sources that could provide you with a
recording.
> Also asks: "Well, we hear them dozens of times once a year (well,
> twice, if you attend both an evening and morning reading). The
> question is, do you have a good enough musical memory to reproduce it
> the following year?"
> I would say: No, not to reproduce, but let's say between age 6 and age
> 16 of hearing assorted leiners read megilla, I got the sense of what
> megila trop sounds like, and when I finally read for the first time at
> 17, it was just like learning to lein yamim noraim or kohellet --
> i.e.: familiar, not like if I tried to learn nusach morocco or iran or
> something. But those two notes -- so rare as to not have this apply.
True, but that's true of the rare ta'amim for Torah and Haftarah
as well. So I don't know why you limited your question to Megillat
Esther trope.
If the replies you got did not meet your requirements perhaps you
should list all of them - source must have recognized credentials such
as a PhD or rabbinic/cantorial ordination, must have recordings, must
agree with at least two other sources, whatever.
Art Werschulz
Yet another resource: Go to YouTube and do a search on
"rabbi hillel lavery-yisraeli" megillah
He has a set of exercises for teaching the tune of the trope. He also chants the whole megillah, chapter by chapter. The latter is synchronized with a "virtual tiqqun", i.e., two text panels (one with niqqud and ta'am, the other without).
--
Art Werschulz (8-{)} "Metaphors be with you." -- bumper sticker
GCS/M (GAT): d? -p+ c++ l u+(-) e--- m* s n+ h f g+ w+ t++ r- y?
Internet: agw STRUDEL comcast.net
Josh Hosseinof
On Feb 19, 5:11 am, Gideon <gidklio...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Josh H mentions the 6:1 verse in particular. Jacobson's book brings
> that verse and several others as ones that use a special nusach of
> For that verse, I prefer to spice up the first half (balailah hahu
> nadedah shnat hammelech) using the Brahms lullaby.
>
> Does Idelsohn give particular pasuk numbers? My specific question is
> for a friend reading Ch. 7. After reading it over a few times, and
> given the aforementioned handful of sources that mention both 7:3 and
> 7:4 as "expressing pain", she and I decided that she would do the
> second half of 7:3 and the first half of 7:4 with nusach eicha on the
> theory that the "v'lu la`avadim l'lishfachot nimkarnu" stuff is kind
> of like Dayenu.
"Vechelim mikelim shonim... vehamelech vehomon yoshvu lishtos vehoir
shushan novochoh... umordechay yoda kol asher nasoh .... vayizak
zeokoh gedololh umoroh."
(there are clearly a few that are missing from the list, and Idelsohn
is clearly not giving an exhaustive list - his purpose was to note the
tune in musical notation format based on some samples of the mode.)
Joyous content according to popular German folk motives:
"Ve hanaaroh asher titav be'ene hamelech timloch tachas vashti,
vayitav hadavar be'ene hamelech vaya'as ken." and "Vayislu es homon
al hoetz asher hechin lemordechay vachamas hamelech shochochoh"
Missinai / Hamelech tune:
"Balayloh hahu nodedoh shenas hamelech".
There is an excellent recording of the megila reading in nusach
ashkenaz by R. Jeremy Wieder available on www.yutorah.org - search by
speaker and select R. Jeremy Wieder, and then search for "esther".
Jeremy is one of the most medayek baalei kriyah i've ever heard,
besides being one of the Roshei Yeshiva at YU, and one of the first
Americans to win the Chidon Hatanach in Israel.
Nehemiah Klein
"Ve hanaaroh asher titav be'ene hamelech timloch tachas vashti,
vayitav hadavar be'ene hamelech vaya'as ken." and "Vayislu es homon
al hoetz asher hechin lemordechay vachamas hamelech shochochoh"
You forgot "vaye-ehav hamelech es Esther mikol hanashim ..." and
"maher kach es halevush ve-es hasus kaasher dibarta ...
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Josh Hosseinof
Idelsohn's list was not meant to be an exhaustive list as he is only
identifying them to give the musical notes for the mode, so once he
gives a few examples he does not bother to bring all the cases of the
special modes.
R. Rich Wolpoe
Idelsohn's list was not meant to be an exhaustive list»
This is the old dilemma
Is the list [any list] exhaustive or exemplary?
Shalom and Regards, RRW
Nehemiah Klein
tradition passed down over the generations. Thus anything found in a
sefer does not necessarily refute the minhag as being incorrect.
R. Rich Wolpoe
This is the old dilemma
>
> Is the list [any list] exhaustive or exemplary?
>
>
These types of things do not need to be in sefarim, it is an oral tradition passed down over the generations.»
Agreed
The issue is the interpretation of the tradition
Even an oral tradition may have a List. And then sometimes we don't know for sure if that list is exhaustive unless that information comes along with it.
--------------------
EG we have 5 kinds of Marror listed in the Mishnah. Is that an exhaustive list or not? And if it lists th only valid d'oraisso values, maybe a d'rabbanan list would be more inclusive?
--------------------
Here's another
Do we eat BOTH bassar v'dagim b'chol shalosh p'amim?
Or either Bassor or Dagim each time?
Shalom and Regards, RRW
Giorgies E. Kepipesiom
wrote:
> > Is the list [any list] exhaustive or exemplary?
> Nehemiah
> These types of things do not need to be in sefarim, it is an oral tradition passed down over the generations.»
> Agreed
> The issue is the interpretation of the tradition
> Even an oral tradition may have a List. And then sometimes we don't know for sure if that list is exhaustive unless that information comes along with it.
maybe a d'rabbanan list would be more inclusive?
> Do we eat BOTH bassar v'dagim b'chol shalosh p'amim?
>> Or either Bassor or Dagim each time?
Here's another: is it sh'losha g'viim meshukodim, or is it meshukodim
kaftoreha uf'rocheha?
GEK