New space storage

[Samwise Wilson]

Storage Proposal:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/11tfGU-c_c_T3qqNO0T1UOE13y5GHaCpGc2TgWWWoFh0/edit

Summary:

Storage of stuff at the hackspace is a space critical thing that you are entitled to as a member. Storage is one of the core design patterns agreed by hackspaces everywhere. We currently do it badly, with personal effects everywhere and no real donation process.

I suggest this implementation for Leeds Hackspace (in the new space).

The backroom is an ideal candidate for dedicated member storage space. Primary goals:

• Allow for future security improvements
• Standardize the storage process 
• Ensure new members get their designated space immediately
• Discourage random shit in the main space
• Discourage storage of personal stuff in main space
• Increase the "i know what stuff i can keep at the space" ratio
• Decrease the personal toolage in primary space circulation (not directly addressed here, another topic?)

All these serve to accelerate growth, provide better member onboarding (yey i got space!) and (omg just spent £5 on a box better use it!), it also moves us towards things that needed to be done to enable 24/7 access (member storage isnt in main space and is at least a little "out the way", it also enables events to happen easier, as an event organizer who takes liability for a possibly publicly accessible event at LHS, you know that peoples stuff is in another room behind RFID.

The other parts of the proposal are separate such as LPS and Consumables / Space storage - I expect consumables / space storage to be handled by the space, and hence in the main area appropriately designed for what they will store. e.g. workshop = sheet material and stock storage, electronics will have little part bins / drawers.

We also need to steer the space to taking responsibility for all tool-age, having member tools in circulation is just overall bad because we cant accurately know what we need for the space to function properly without that members stuff, it takes up space in some cases and its awkward when its broked, so this may fall into the LPS category if they are not space-owned.

 

[Andy51055]

So, to translate into plain English:

Personal storage in the new space will be in the room at the far end of the back corridor which will have a locked door openable only by key card, like the front door. Making it less visible and accessible will make it safer from theft and less likely to fill with personal stuff.
There will be three times as much storage space as there is in the current space but it will now cost £5.
Any projects or materials left on the tables or benches will be binned.

Things will be stored where they're needed so there will be no equivalent of the current Big Room where stuff of possible, but not immediate, interest is kept.

Long-term loan of tools to Hackspace is to be discouraged, it should buy its own.

[samson B]

just to check a few things

is it £5 a month or just £5 for life with the storage.

can members still donate Equipment as I have a big soldering iron perfect for the hot room is that is still happening ( thort that was going in the back room)

also can memebrs still leave things out if say glue is drying as my current project want fit in storage standing up ?

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[aaron.j....@googlemail.com]

On Wednesday, 28 September 2016 14:11:59 UTC+1, Samwise Wilson wrote:
> Storage Proposal:
>
>
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/11tfGU-c_c_T3qqNO0T1UOE13y5GHaCpGc2TgWWWoFh0/edit
>
>
>
> Summary:
>
>
> Storage of stuff at the hackspace is a space critical thing that you are entitled to as a member. Storage is one of the core design patterns agreed by hackspaces everywhere. We currently do it badly, with personal effects everywhere and no real donation process.
>
>
> I suggest this implementation for Leeds Hackspace (in the new space).
>
>
> The backroom is an ideal candidate for dedicated member storage space. Primary goals:

> Allow for future security improvementsStandardize the storage process Ensure new members get their designated space immediatelyDiscourage random shit in the main spaceDiscourage storage of personal stuff in main spaceIncrease the "i know what stuff i can keep at the space" ratioDecrease the personal toolage in primary space circulation (not directly addressed here, another topic?)

> All these serve to accelerate growth, provide better member onboarding (yey i got space!) and (omg just spent £5 on a box better use it!), it also moves us towards things that needed to be done to enable 24/7 access (member storage isnt in main space and is at least a little "out the way", it also enables events to happen easier, as an event organizer who takes liability for a possibly publicly accessible event at LHS, you know that peoples stuff is in another room behind RFID.
>
>
> The other parts of the proposal are separate such as LPS and Consumables / Space storage - I expect consumables / space storage to be handled by the space, and hence in the main area appropriately designed for what they will store. e.g. workshop = sheet material and stock storage, electronics will have little part bins / drawers.
>
>
> We also need to steer the space to taking responsibility for all tool-age, having member tools in circulation is just overall bad because we cant accurately know what we need for the space to function properly without that members stuff, it takes up space in some cases and its awkward when its broked, so this may fall into the LPS category if they are not space-owned.
>
>
>  

What you guys need are some GoBoxes! https://aaronjibbotson.wordpress.com/2016/04/17/gobox-modular-storage-system/

https://github.com/AndyKirby/RoutableParts/tree/master/GoBox

They are basally a modular storage system that stack up like Lego bricks and hold a 35Lt Really Useful Box.

If it is of any interest, we handle storage at Sheffield Hackspace by renting out GoBoxes to members for £10 per 6 months. The first 6 months covers the cost of materials and there after provides a small additional income to the space, members can then go and buy a 35Lt Really Useful box to add if they wish.

It's a system that is working really well for us and allows easy access and is low profile.

AJ

[samson B]

hi so your memebers are no longer entitled to storage they have to rent it as an add on ? I don't like the sound of that I don't mind a £5 deposit for a space, but if its a mouthly thing on top of meber ship its no longer an entitlement it is just something ells you have to pay for would it not have been better to incloud that in the membership monthly cost ?? .

[Samwise Wilson]

It's a one off payment of £5 or whatever the cost of a 35L box is at the moment. Just to make sure all the storage is the same and stackable.

[Tom Oldbury (Email #1)]

> hi so your memebers are no longer entitled to storage they have to rent it as an add on ? I don't like the sound of that I don't mind a £5 deposit for a space, 

> but if its a mouthly thing on top of meber ship its no longer an entitlement it is just something ells you have to pay for would it not have been better to incloud that in the membership monthly cost ?? .

Not everyone will use storage, so it makes some sense to make it an extra. It also creates a few benefits;

- we can dispose of expired members items  (as they are explicitly renting storage!)

- members that don't need storage don't get it, keeping more space free

£10 every 6 months will be roughly £1.67 a month extra. 

Regarding tool donations, I disagree that the hackspace should purchase everything. I have donated some equipment myself. Now it's likely that it will remain permanent but there is a chance I would need to borrow an item occasionally. So it's like 99.9% availability for £0 or 100% for £xxx. If the hackspace had to purchase all of the items that have been donated by members then it would have significantly less money to spend on other useful items. 

On Wednesday, 28 September 2016 19:20:48 UTC+1, samson B wrote:

On Wed, Sep 28, 2016 at 6:57 PM, aaron.j.ibbotson via Leeds Hack Space <leeds-ha...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

On Wednesday, 28 September 2016 14:11:59 UTC+1, Samwise Wilson  wrote:
> Storage Proposal:
>
>
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/11tfGU-c_c_T3qqNO0T1UOE13y5GHaCpGc2TgWWWoFh0/edit
>
>
>
> Summary:
>
>
> Storage of stuff at the hackspace is a space critical thing that you are entitled to as a member. Storage is one of the core design patterns agreed by hackspaces everywhere. We currently do it badly, with personal effects everywhere and no real donation process.
>
>
> I suggest this implementation for Leeds Hackspace (in the new space).
>
>
> The backroom is an ideal candidate for dedicated member storage space. Primary goals:
> Allow for future security improvementsStandardize the storage process Ensure new members get their designated space immediatelyDiscourage random shit in the main spaceDiscourage storage of personal stuff in main spaceIncrease the "i know what stuff i can keep at the space" ratioDecrease the personal toolage in primary space circulation (not directly addressed here, another topic?)
> All these serve to accelerate growth, provide better member onboarding (yey i got space!) and (omg just spent £5 on a box better use it!), it also moves us towards things that needed to be done to enable 24/7 access (member storage isnt in main space and is at least a little "out the way", it also enables events to happen easier, as an event organizer who takes liability for a possibly publicly accessible event at LHS, you know that peoples stuff is in another room behind RFID.
>
>
> The other parts of the proposal are separate such as LPS and Consumables / Space storage - I expect consumables / space storage to be handled by the space, and hence in the main area appropriately designed for what they will store. e.g. workshop = sheet material and stock storage, electronics will have little part bins / drawers.
>
>
> We also need to steer the space to taking responsibility for all tool-age, having member tools in circulation is just overall bad because we cant accurately know what we need for the space to function properly without that members stuff, it takes up space in some cases and its awkward when its broked, so this may fall into the LPS category if they are not space-owned.
>
>
>  

What you guys need are some GoBoxes! https://aaronjibbotson.wordpress.com/2016/04/17/gobox-modular-storage-system/

https://github.com/AndyKirby/RoutableParts/tree/master/GoBox

They are basally a modular storage system that stack up like Lego bricks and hold a 35Lt Really Useful Box.

If it is of any interest, we handle storage at Sheffield Hackspace by renting out GoBoxes to members for £10 per 6 months. The first 6 months covers the cost of materials and there after provides a small additional income to the space, members can then go and buy a 35Lt Really Useful box to add if they wish.

It's a system that is working really well for us and allows easy access and is low profile.

AJ

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[Samwise Wilson]

The goboxes look great!

Remember that many spaces don't have a monthly fee structure the same as ours, so space rental is more applicable to them. We are not at that stage where that makes sense yet!

[Samwise Wilson]

Donations are still welcomed, if they can fit physically in the donations storage and it isn't full then go ahead and put it in. If they can't, it will be a mailing list discussion if it is wanted.

LPS doesn't effect stuff drying or space being used normally day to day. It's just now there will be a proposed mechanism and time-to-action to deal with neglected things.

However we will need to keep an eye on this as the space grows, nothing is worse than pausing your work because you are having to move someone elses project because they aren't around and no information is anywhere.

[samson B]

@samwise are I see what they ment now and im fine with paying a £5 one of charge .

 I also agree with tom as new space would have be this far along if we didn't work as a community as most of the tools there seem to be is on lone.

On Wed, Sep 28, 2016 at 7:56 PM, Samwise Wilson <s...@swwils.com> wrote:

The goboxes look great!

Remember that many spaces don't have a monthly fee structure the same as ours, so space rental is more applicable to them. We are not at that stage where that makes sense yet!

[Samwise Wilson]

Also the main proposal here is storage not hackspace toolage, tool donations are always welcome and it is a group effort.

We will need to get ontop of that at larger scales though. Especially when our tools become upgrade projects managed by teams I.e. the laser.

But for now focus on the storage! My personal main thing to fix is getting your space when you sign up, nothing is more welcoming than a empty zone for you to fill with hacks.

[Stanto]

Please see the other discussion about the hot room: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/leeds-hack-space/Ywtjj3ZbgZc

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[Stanto]

I like this suggestion list, and it sounds similar to what I've seen at Nottinghack, here's a kind of check list of questions, a number of thoughts:

- Whose job is it to maintain this when it's put in place?

- If someone doesn't want to pay £5 for a box, what happens then?

- What happens if a box is damaged while in storage?

- What happens if something happens to the member storage area, eg, flood, fire, missing, stolen, etc?

- What happens if/when storage is full?

- It's been mentioned that these boxes will be stacked/stackable, how high are we talking? Or will they be on shelves as they are now? eg. will I be expected to shift 3 boxes that have been stacked on top of mine, but they could be ridiculously heavy? I wouldn't want to damage others projects or hurt myself moving them.

- What are the repercussions of someone not storing their stuff properly?

On Wednesday, 28 September 2016 14:11:59 UTC+1, Samwise Wilson wrote:

[Andy51055]

The goboxes don't appear to be the boxes to keep stuff in, they form the shelving unit that we will keep our boxes/bags of stuff in. They're approximately 500 x 400 x 350 and designed to fit standard 35litre boxes.

So you won't be expected to move them from the stack. Effectively you'll be renting the unit but unlike the current storage, it won't exist until you rent it.

I am curious about how they will build up though. The way they stack means that there must be two on first level before a second level one can be added and so on. So early adopters will have their stuff at floor level and old, unbendy members like me will have to wait until five other units are in place before we can add ours at prime not-bend-too-much level. Are we going to end up with an unspoken hierarchy?

[Samwise Wilson]

We don't have to adopt goboxes if they arnt needed. The shelving we acquired is probably suitable.

Thinking about it in slots is a bad idea, you get a box not a slot. Where that box is stored is really agnostic, put it wherever in the storage you feel like. If we are getting into space organised "who has top bunk" then I don't think we are ready to handle actual organisation - talk to someone and get your box moved into a suitable place if you have a special need!

I would expect that the stacks level are totally space permitting. I wouldn't expect a stack to go above 2 boxes. But in the future if we require a colder members storage to be stacked higher; we can.

We don't ever want a scenario where a new member can't have storage, that's a sucky situation that's handled by capacity monitoring and then suggesting new systems if we run out of space. I can't emphasise enough how much it sucks to not get storage when you become a member, it's super off putting.

If you break your box you buy a new one. Once you got it it's your responsibility.

[Andy51055]

Thinking of it as a slot seems to make more sense as you can't move your box unless it's on the top layer because they are all locked together. Otherwise it's as Stanto says - you have to move all the boxes above it first, like taking a Lego brick out of a wall. Their original design, and the way that they're used, is as a slot to store a 35L box that is portable. Is it these 35L boxes that we provide to new members for £10 a year or do they have to buy those as well?

There is space in the back room for about 20 boxes per row so a couple of rows should be enough for the current membership. Ergonomically though, the best layers are the third and fourth - they are slightly below standard worktop and wall unit heights, so effectively in the no-strain zone.

I'd suggest that we stick with the system we have for the moment, and look at this again when a) we are getting close to capacity and b) when we can physically make the goboxes (we can't at present).

[Andy51055]

The current price of the 35L boxes from the link on AJ's blog is £25 (incl. P & P), which might end up being a disincentive (to using storage or getting membership, if compulsory).

A Special Introductory Offer!!! - FREE With Your First Month's Membership! deal might be the way to go...

[Samwise Wilson]

Of course you can move your box, its literally a box on a shelf, the max stack at the moment being 2, nothing is interconnected. 

I'm honestly not going to delve into storage box real estate, that can be left to individuals.

There is a eurooffice deal on for Really Useful Storage Box 35L at £7.50 each, having the storage be standardized is the core of how this works and is compulsory.

We are already completely at member storage capacity, and space storage in general is a absolute shit show - it is not something we want migrated to the new space.

[Andy51055]

So we're talking about 35L boxes, not the goboxes. That makes sense, and in that case the shelving we got the other day should be perfect for it.

Presumably Hackspace should bulk buy them while this offer is on to bring the final price down to closer to the £7.50 per unit. Get them while it's cheaper to buy two than one.

[Stanto]

Another question on my mind is, does this mean everyone that currently has member storage will get a box for free, or are they expected to pay up £5 and move their stuff into a box if they aren't currently using one?

[timpin .]

Sounds fair.

On Wednesday, 28 September 2016, Samwise Wilson <s...@swwils.com> wrote:

It's a one off payment of £5 or whatever the cost of a 35L box is at the moment. Just to make sure all the storage is the same and stackable.

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[Matt C]

I agree with the proposal and would like to see it implemented.

I just want to reiterate that Hackspace assumes no responsibility for anything left at the space!

Agree with Tom and Swwils that people lending tools to the space is a good thing but that process needs to be defined and documented.

[samson B]

we should think of it as slots and not boxes that move as you might end up with box wars on your hands with people trying to get theres in the no strain zone ( unlikely but possible)

plus if its slots ( like it is at the moment )we no where our stuff is at all times and its not likely to move and cause confusion??  . ( sorry I seem to be throwing a lot of spanners into the works )

On Thu, Sep 29, 2016 at 3:12 PM, timpin . <tmp...@gmail.com> wrote:

Sounds fair.

On Wednesday, 28 September 2016, Samwise Wilson <s...@swwils.com> wrote:

It's a one off payment of £5 or whatever the cost of a 35L box is at the moment. Just to make sure all the storage is the same and stackable.

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[Andy51055]

I would think that members lending tools to the Hackspace (with the caveat that maintenance is not Hackspace's responsibility) is almost vital, and certainly a Good Thing. It saves the space having to buy as many tools, especially ones that aren't used that often so their cost is harder to justify. It also makes use of tools that would otherwise sit in someone's shed or basement, hardly used and of little use to anyone. One aspect of the 'community workshop' model for Hackspace is the provision of tools that aren't that common but are really useful on a few jobs.

"having member tools in circulation is just overall bad because we cant accurately know what we need for the space to function properly without that members stuff," But surely better to have them available when needed than expecting Hackspace to buy all the tools that may occasionally be useful.
As Matt says, documenting who has lent what shouldn't be hard, or much, work.

[Jon Stockill]

On 29.09.2016 11:04, Stanto wrote:
> Another question on my mind is, does this mean everyone that currently
> has member storage will get a box for free, or are they expected to
> pay up £5 and move their stuff into a box if they aren't currently
> using one?

There are a whole bunch of members who already bought boxes of the
current spec.

--
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li...@stockill.net

[samson B]

the idea of taking our current shelving to new space is a good idea as a stop gap is a good idea and unlike what sam said I managed to get a slot and no of at least 1/2 empty ones so is a pos stop gap idea . ( theres a lot to read though hopfuly this should be my last email to do with past emails)

[Samwise Wilson]

Can you quantify the current spec? I can just see current member storage in some places spilling out, being unstackable, unmovable and eventually getting lost / uncared for without a known owner. 

Standardization is the key and unfortunately as we grow noone is going to be a special snowflake and will have to use the member storage and LPS process, otherwise its unfair to other members if you think about it.

With regards to member tools in circulation, maybe I should rephrase towards projects people own that are unfinished but kinda for space use or maybe kinda not. They should really be subject to LPS just to ensure they are worked on or stored appropriately until the time comes that a decision is made. 

[samson B]

LPS ?

for the storage I was not meening for anyone to be a "special snowflake " I was just saying that we can use the shelving under the new proposed system till we make / buy / find better ones :P

--

[Matt C]

Large Project Storage

It's defined here:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/11tfGU-c_c_T3qqNO0T1UOE13y5GHaCpGc2TgWWWoFh0/edit

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[samson B]

cool thanks never been good with shorthand

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[Alex Silcock]

I think all of the ideas in the original document are good, and I'd be happy to see them implemented.

As others have said, since we currently don't have the means to manufacture GoBoxes, moving the current member storage shelving to the new space sounds reasonable until we can move to GoBoxes. All member storage that doesn't fit inside the current pigeon holes should go into LPS though, to avoid the mess that we currently have (stuff stacked on top of the shelving, and stuff on the floor nearby)

[J C]

So I agree a lot with what Samwise has said certainly LTS is what we need to implement from the start. 

In terms of personal storage from the move. everyone gets one slot of the storage shelves we currently have. We will upgrade when we get enough money to do it with. I will be augmenting it with some extra shelves so that we have enough for a few more members to join. If you feel you need more space then we will see what space we have and charge extra for its use. Technically we haven't run out to date, at least not since the last instalment of storage but if every new member wanted a slot then there would be in difficulty. 

As to where we have it we will have to look at where we can get the most storage. Rough calculations show it may be the spot outside the kitchen but thats going to take more careful measurements and a better idea of how much space between shelves we should have for people to get to their storage space so I will take a look at that on Tuesday. Also going to have to decide if we have enough space for 35 liters as the standard storage space though I would like to have a box that big.

Current wishlist for ideal member storage I think is to have something affordable and avoids relying on stacking of boxes. Currently thinking that if everyone got a slot instead of a box then you could upgrade your own slot to be reinforced/ lockable should you so wish for the extra security. 

Some people have personal tool boxes kept at the space. Which fall outside any system we have at the moment. Those people also tend to be generous with these tools as they contain specialist items the space currently do not own and often happy to let people use them. As such I think for now there should be storage organised for these under one of the large work benches but review this in 6 months time and work towards having a fuller tool collection of the hackspaces own so that borrowing peoples personal tools is no longer needed. This is a different case to tools on long term loan from members that are obviously there for public use. 

[Samwise Wilson]

The back room can fit dexion shelving to fit 88 35L boxes without fuss (2x4x1 1.8m height max). The current members storage may be better utilised as space storage, with the correct units inside of them.

Slot-based storage encourages overflow. Boxed based standardizes it; and 35L is more than you get now. The ability to be able to move someones box is a value in itself as this system grows, moving a slot of stuff is harder.

Nothing proposed relies on stacking boxes for the core storage solution, but having that feature for "colder" members and less accessed member storage is what counts and why we are in a sticky situation migrating to the better solution, because we have no real standard.

[Alex Silcock]

Moving to larger standardised storage boxes if we have space sounds like a good idea, but not one we need to do right now, in my opinion - it's ultimately an upgrade in terms of personal storage space and consistency/tidiness. Large Project Storage does sound like a good idea to implement from the get-go, though.

I have a related proposal for keeping public working areas tidy that works in a similar way to the LPS, but it uses 4 large plastic boxes that are systematically emptied. Any items left out in work areas at any given time would be put into the first box, and on a weekly cycle the boxes would be rotated with the oldest box being emptied into the bin.

This guarantees no individual item will be binned for 3-4 weeks, and it provides a place for anyone to move clutter to without worrying about throwing out someone's project.

This might be better discussed in a separate thread though, to keep discussion on topic.

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[Samwise Wilson]

It needs doing, we have everything we need. Everything needs doing at some point in time, why delay?

Are people really adverse to £5 or whatnot for a box? If so, the Samwise box charity foundation will cover your box.

We need to move away from this adherence and lazy stuff (tm) attitude space-wide, both with member storage, LPS, donations and whatever the solution is to "stuff on the side".

Standardise member storage, make it slot agnostic and utilise the current storage investment elsewhere in the space where a unified management can ensure it works at max efficiency.

[Christopher Stanton]

On Mon, 3 Oct 2016, 00:42 Samwise Wilson, <s...@swwils.com> wrote:

It needs doing, we have everything we need. Everything needs doing at some point in time, why delay?

Agreed

Are people really adverse to £5 or whatnot for a box?

You'll have to ask them. I've already paid. :)

If so, the Samwise box charity foundation will cover your box.

We need to move away from this adherence and lazy stuff (tm) attitude space-wide, both with member storage, LPS, donations and whatever the solution is to "stuff on the side".

Standardise member storage, make it slot agnostic and utilise the current storage investment elsewhere in the space where a unified management can ensure it works at max efficiency.

[Andy51055]

88 boxes should cover the membership for quite a while - and that's assuming that everyone takes a box.
I'm sure hardly anyone will be averse to paying £5 for a box, especially if you're happy to pay the £4 - £20 per box difference. (The euroffice site is interesting - they say the boxes are £6.50 if you buy them 3 at a time but are actually over £16. Their cheapest deal is for 2 pairs at £9 per box). I worry about extra costs as I'm about to have to give up membership due to loss of income, so it's a sore point.

[Samwise Wilson]

I bought the ones I have at home from asda, so I'm sure the space will be able to find a cheap source quite readily.

They really are pretty good for storing stuff. Very handy and worth it over the pound land 25L ones that shatter.

[Christopher Stanton]

On Mon, 3 Oct 2016, 08:52 Samwise Wilson, <s...@swwils.com> wrote:

I bought the ones I have at home from asda, so I'm sure the space will be able to find a cheap source quite readily.

Hang on, somewhere to buy these hasnt been identified? Do we have a list of possible places and their prices?

They really are pretty good for storing stuff. Very handy and worth it over the pound land 25L ones that shatter.

[Samwise Wilson]

I have some personally for non-space use, but ideally the space should buy them as needed / in bulk for members so we make sure they are all the same. But they arn't hard to find or get! Occasionally you can stack (lol) deals on them at high street too.

Cue guy in suit trying to smash them up:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSUf9Qbe244

[J C]

I hadn't really taken in how much Dexion we have so yeah that might make this all feasible sooner. However I'm still going to spend time on Tuesday looking at maximising storage. 88 is not a lot more than we have now and if we work from the idea of every member should have one from the beginning then we need to plan ahead for that. Plus the large project storage.

Andy will text you about your future membership.

On 3 Oct 2016 9:04 am, "Christopher Stanton" <sta...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Mon, 3 Oct 2016, 08:52 Samwise Wilson, <s...@swwils.com> wrote:

I bought the ones I have at home from asda, so I'm sure the space will be able to find a cheap source quite readily.

Hang on, somewhere to buy these hasnt been identified? Do we have a list of possible places and their prices?

They really are pretty good for storing stuff. Very handy and worth it over the pound land 25L ones that shatter.

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[Samwise Wilson]

88*35L is alooooot more storage than the current zone, thats for sure! 

We have alot of areas in new space where large project storage could be considered, the key things to do would make sure these don't impact on the flexibility of the main space e.g. saying storage under large tables mandates the use of large tables which in the primary space are actually not the optimal solution, particularly when we have power drops and the flexibility of bringing smaller tables together when needed available to us. These makes the mainspace far easier to host talk / workshop sessions; which regular occurrences of are one of the cornerstones for growth.

Has anyone thought about the proposals space-storage (SS)? These to me are key areas where organisation plays a part and we reap massive benefits, getting these right and fit for purpose for the each uses of the hackspace is key - so please comment on the album with the areas you work in and say if they are suitable; hopefully people will take ownership of each zone and the design will be seeded and be physically made. e.g. an obvious great one is the standalone 3d printer cab, or the workshop sheet material storage - you can easily see how these would make those two areas of the space easier to manage, more prevalent (optimal design!) and thus better for all, we just need focus.

To summarize this ethos:

The end goal is under development, but clear to all, we "should be" getting there as fast as humanly possible - but it takes time to get to economies of scale and do the optimizations on the solutions, to think we shouldn't do development on it because we cant get have it right away is bad, we should start!

On Monday, 3 October 2016 09:36:20 UTC+1, Japoteg wrote:

I hadn't really taken in how much Dexion we have so yeah that might make this all feasible sooner. However I'm still going to spend time on Tuesday looking at maximising storage. 88 is not a lot more than we have now and if we work from the idea of every member should have one from the beginning then we need to plan ahead for that. Plus the large project storage.

Andy will text you about your future membership.

On 3 Oct 2016 9:04 am, "Christopher Stanton" <sta...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Mon, 3 Oct 2016, 08:52 Samwise Wilson, <s...@swwils.com> wrote:

I bought the ones I have at home from asda, so I'm sure the space will be able to find a cheap source quite readily.

Hang on, somewhere to buy these hasnt been identified? Do we have a list of possible places and their prices?

They really are pretty good for storing stuff. Very handy and worth it over the pound land 25L ones that shatter.

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[Andy51055]

On Monday, October 3, 2016 at 11:43:10 AM UTC+1, Samwise Wilson wrote:

hopefully people will take ownership of each zone and the design will be seeded and be physically made. e.g. an obvious great one is the standalone 3d printer cab, or the workshop sheet material storage - you can easily see how these would make those two areas of the space easier to manage, more prevalent (optimal design!) and thus better for all, we just need focus.

I have designed a 2400 x 600 workbench for the craft area which will incorporate boxed storage below for tools and material for assorted crafts, a light table at one end and possibly a peg board behind for hanging tools/materials (only possibly because it depends on lighting - relying on overhead light from the skylight means the wall will be needed for bouncing light off). As such it will hopefully be a fully equipped crafts workstation and tools and materials shouldn't spread too far from it. Users can either sit at it or work standing. It will use almost entirely scrap wood from the darkroom and slats from an old bed so will cost hardly anything.
The only reason I haven't built it yet is because the floor hasn't been done yet.

[Matt Collins]

Let's move forward with this, if people aren't happy/able to buy a new box let's just say any box up to 35L, then they can use the old ones.

I think moving to the box rather than shelf system is key, you get a box and that's it.

Coupled with the clear classification between member storage/LPS/Loaned tools/infrastructure this proposal is win win.

[Andy51055]

One quick way to get on with this is to put up the dexion in the back room. To do this we need to move the roofer's stuff out. Apparently this has been agreed and he's planning on collecting it 'soon'. Is there any reason why we shouldn't move it to the back corridor which is useless these days anyway?

[Jon Stockill]

On 03.10.2016 09:36, J C wrote:
> I hadn't really taken in how much Dexion we have so yeah that might
> make this all feasible sooner. However I'm still going to spend time
> on Tuesday looking at maximising storage. 88 is not a lot more than we
> have now and if we work from the idea of every member should have one
> from the beginning then we need to plan ahead for that. Plus the large
> project storage.

There's a foot deep transit load bed worth, aka about a cubic metre, aka
a metric f*cktonne ;-)

As long as its assembled in continuous bays (with bracing at suitable
points) it should make a LOT of storage. If we want lots of separate
free standing bits then we're likely to need some more uprights.

--
Jon Stockill
li...@stockill.net

[J C]

have asked landlord about removal of roofers stuff and pointed out how soon we want to get in there. Will let you know

[Andy51055]

Just thought it would be easier access for them too, seeing as I'm no longer in all day every day (or anyone else). If they can give us a day they'll be around to get it I'm happy to head down there.

[J C]

Thanks Andy will let you know if they need help accessing the room. 

--

[mar...@ranyard.info]

Couldn't find an appropriate place in the thread to collect my thoughts
and haven't had the energy or time to jump in earlier.

My main disagreement with the proposal is that it is much less
convenient than the current arrangement.

Currently, the shelf with your name on can fit a variety of things, for
example one of my two cubes currently consists of :-
* A box (humans are useless at estimating volume, one of the old project
box size).
* On top of said box, an organizer case thing, fits nicely.
* Slid down the side of the box, my calipers in a case.
* In front of the box a Clas Ohlson organiser toolbox thing that
a. would not fit in the box.
b. has my most regularly used stuff in it.

Moving to a single (even if slightly bigger) box would cause the
following to happen :
* Said box would come out of member storage and sit next to me whilst I
work either on the floor or on the desk, in the way. The organiser
thing is much less obtrusive especially on an open night, and several of
us have them already.
* Instead of having easy access to the things I want to store at the
space, it would be buried at the bottom of the box because boxes do
that.
* If these boxes are intended to be stacked, I would have to move
another member's box because it is stacked on mine?

Human centric design, look at what people are doing and why, rather than
"x is perfect, why aren't people doing the right thing?"

Onto the Large Project Storage...

I think we have several things that currently don't fit into what has
been proposed and if we want it to work, it needs to cover them. The
BigBox is an obvious one - it's a 3D printer that belongs to me, but I'm
happy for it to live at the space as was the other director I spoke to
about it. Once it's up and running, people can use it, but I've run
into an issue getting it running and haven't decided my next move on it.
This means that there are months where I don't try to get it running,
the last worked on date would not move on and it would end up with a red
sticker on it.
Try the medium cube, the arcade cab, the scrolly display... what is
proposed needs to cover those too.
So here's the thing, do we want to *actively discourage hacking*?
Because that's what this seems to be set up to do - don't hack on
something big unless you have the energy to keep hacking during some
arbitrary time period?

So yeah, my vote is to do something similar to what we have now at the
new space rather than try and shoehorn in a change because we're moving.

I'll leave my comments about using a room that could be used for other
things for member storage unsaid because people don't agree and I feel
like they will not be well received.

Cheers,
--
Martyn

On 2016-09-28 14:11, Samwise Wilson wrote:
> Storage Proposal:
>
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/11tfGU-c_c_T3qqNO0T1UOE13y5GHaCpGc2TgWWWoFh0/edit
>
> Summary:
>
> Storage of stuff at the hackspace is a space critical thing that you
> are entitled to as a member. Storage is one of the core design
> patterns agreed by hackspaces everywhere. We currently do it badly,
> with personal effects everywhere and no real donation process.
>
> I suggest this implementation for Leeds Hackspace (in the new space).
>
> The backroom is an ideal candidate for dedicated member storage space.
> Primary goals:
>
> * Allow for future security improvements
> * Standardize the storage process
> * Ensure new members get their designated space immediately
> * Discourage random shit in the main space
> * Discourage storage of personal stuff in main space
> * Increase the "i know what stuff i can keep at the space" ratio
> * Decrease the personal toolage in primary space circulation (not
> directly addressed here, another topic?)
>
> All these serve to accelerate growth, provide better member onboarding
> (yey i got space!) and (omg just spent £5 on a box better use it!),
> it also moves us towards things that needed to be done to enable 24/7
> access (member storage isnt in main space and is at least a little
> "out the way", it also enables events to happen easier, as an event
> organizer who takes liability for a possibly publicly accessible event
> at LHS, you know that peoples stuff is in another room behind RFID.
>
> The other parts of the proposal are separate such as LPS and
> Consumables / Space storage - I expect consumables / space storage to
> be handled by the space, and hence in the main area appropriately
> designed for what they will store. e.g. workshop = sheet material and
> stock storage, electronics will have little part bins / drawers.
>
> We also need to steer the space to taking responsibility for all
> tool-age, having member tools in circulation is just overall bad
> because we cant accurately know what we need for the space to function
> properly without that members stuff, it takes up space in some cases
> and its awkward when its broked, so this may fall into the LPS
> category if they are not space-owned.

>
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[samson B]

martyn makes a very good point im on 5 weeks of nights at the moment if this happens again while im working on a big idea I could loose it unless im willing (or have energy) to go to the space after work in the middle of the night, I also think having a cube is a better idear then stacking boxing purely so things cant get damaged by people moving your box to get to there's as for the dividing boxes iv seen them they are great (rest of that thort I think iv put in an other email before).

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[Samwise Wilson]

For the initial rollout noone is going to have to move anything to get to your stuff. If you don't want to use the hackspace because your items are in a box (for the good of the space) rather than a slot then I'm afraid this solution isn't for you and again I would say this is unfair to other members.

To be blunt, the argument presented against here is "I use more unorganised space than everyone else". How is that fair? You can't scale up that approach at all.

I would say months of not working on a personal project absolutely exclude it from being useful to the space at all. Even with a promise that it could eventually be used by the space.

A 35L box can easily contain a stack mate or whatever they are called.

[samson B]

sam you are mis reading what people are saying and as for your first paregraph that's just unfear ( ill keep the rst of whats in my head about that to my self)

, for the large member storage I think it is very unfear to penalise thoughs members who work shifts by saying if you don't work on it every week then tooth look life has a habbit of getting in the way. 

people are not saying we use to mustch space at the moment I don't use any at all as im wating for the move its just mustch easyer to have a few smaller boxer in a cube that needly orginises things the concern is not knowing if these small boxes will fit into the big one.

now I don't no if im miss reading you or if this is just the way you type but you need to calm down before you burst a blood vessel you seem to be getting very angry with people trying to talk and come up with a solution that everyone can agree with.?  

appolegies for my bad spelling

[Andy51055]

Overall I think that this is a good and workable solution to storage, but there does need to be some flexibility. Not everyone uses their storage in the same way.

As the 35l boxes are 400mm wide, we can make a slot for those who don't want boxes out of scrap sheets left over from laser cutting. It will take a couple of minutes to knock one up using Stanley and Gaffer, cost nothing and be fair space-wise. It won't look shiny but it's in a dark, locked, remote room where the public will never go/know. We can even have a sign saying 'Beware of the leopard!'

On Monday, October 3, 2016 at 5:36:48 PM UTC+1, Samwise Wilson wrote:

I would say months of not working on a personal project absolutely exclude it from being useful to the space at all. Even with a promise that it could eventually be used by the space.

c.f. vendo. We all do it. I have a half-made perpetual motion machine at home. Not sure if I'll be able to bring it back as progress was too slow on it and it's just a bit too big to fit in my slot/box (oh dear...). We can work these things out as/when needed, we don't need rigid inflexible rules for the space to work.

I am rather worried that Martyn is right about the boxes being brought out though. It was part of my initial resistance to storing them in the back room. If they are so far away then people will tend to bring them out for the evening rather than go back repeatedly for bits. And so take up much more space per person. Hopefully most people will end up with boxes within boxes and only bring out those they need, but that does seem a bit optimistic. It would be ironic if we followed the old dictum of just expanding to fill the space so we still don't have room for any new members.

[Samwise Wilson]

Vendo was never in the space when it did not work. I arranged private storage for 2 months whilst I worked on it. If you don't want vendo, then sell it, or ask me and I will remove it within the week. Its the hackspaces' not mine, do whatever you want!

Overall, box or nothing, not having standard storage destroys the whole point of this very simple idea. 

If sheer laziness stops this then it is no wonder the state of space process at the moment.

[samson B]

i just like to point out that if we all have 400mm wide space ( X height) then it is standardised you can standardise storage ( cube shelving ) with out having to have a big box it is not out of any sort of laziness as Andy pointed out everyone will want to use the storage differently  . 

--

[Samwise Wilson]

Ive updated thee doc to allow comments, get my attention there!

Please remember this is the storage CORE, not the be all end all! Think of this as the guaranteed-working foundation that other more dedicated storage plug-ins get involved with to provide missing functionality.

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[Matt Collins]

Martyn, just to pick up on this. I don't think anyone is disagreeing with allowing people to hack on big projects over a period of time, this is especially great when those projects improve Hackspace infrastructure. But that system needs to be defined and timeframes for working  on projects need to be agreed otherwise there is the opportunity for members to inadvertently monopolise space. The key thing is everyone being on the same page working within the same parameters; the system Samwise proposes offer a framework for doing that.

Currently what would be the procedure for a disagreement over use of space and project storage? There isn't a system at all, look at this proposal as the first iteration of something that might eventually work.

With regards to getting the box out, with a 35L box I'm sure there would be novel ways to compartmentalise into easy units :)

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[Samwise Wilson]

So did this get the yay or nay? 

Correct sized shelving can then appear and we can start the LPS processes. 

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[Stanto]

Looks like it only needs a directors sign off-go ahead.

[Matt Collins]

Stanto would you like to see it implemented?

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[Stanto]

Sure.

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[samson B]

just to play devils adfikate do we have the space at the moment as members storage looked prity full would it be wise to Waite and see if we can build a new room in the enterprise corridor and combine the two ?

for the record am for the large members storage idea just making sure we have a space allocated before we buy / set up more shelving witch might not have anywhere to go?

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[Stanto]

To see if I understand you correctly, to me, your statement reads to me as though it assumes that the current contents of the member storage follows Samwise's guidelines, and that it is full because of them.

This is not true, currently the room for the members storage consists of a bunch of unorganised junk, some empty boxes, and partial/full boxes containing member's items. Which is exactly why this process and documentation is needed in the first place.

Part of Samwise's proposal, (which it might be a good idea to re-read) suggests people only have 1 or 2 boxes, and at present some people may have 3 or more, which needs to be4 checked.

Basically: What we have now, is why Samwise has created this proposal and why the storage looks full, and there's currently some shelving in there, it needs tidying up.

[samson B]

I have read the proposal ( pos not the latest draft) what I was meaning was more we cant fit another set of shelves in there ( from what I can see) so if we were to combine members storage with large project storage will they both fit in that room sorry for the confusion I do agree with the proposal and the need for organisation.  

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[Matt Collins]

I think the purpose of LPS is to agree things that aren't stored in member storage and to create a framework for managing them

[Matt Collins]

So yes it would be seperate

[Andy51055]

Sadly, it looks as though the shared corridor is, in fact, Enterprise's fire escape from their back rooms. Despite their fuckwittery in padlocking it, they need to be able to escape from the door nearest our end of the corridor. The Fire Service will come and check it at some point and then go bananas at the collection of crap in there, which is why I've been clearing our stuff out of there. All this came from the roofer who has experience of all this happening repeatedly over the years, with the buildup of junk for a couple of years then the clearing for a couple of months...

There is therefore no need for us to have a fire escape route through the craft area.

There is therefore no chance of using the corridor for anything useful.

[timpin .]

Nobody quote me on this because I'm not sure I'm right but generally there need to be two fire escape routes in case one is impassible.
This would mean the route through the craft area would still be classed as a fire escape

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[samson B]

Cool thats what i wanted to cheack matt as it would just make more shelving lieing round when it wasnt needed till we found space :) and andy thats a shame :( 

Sent from my iPhone

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[J C]

There is a TL:DR at the end.

So I read through the proposal again a couple of times and re read through chat room from last night. 

In general I like Samwises proposal, It covers a lot of things and something needs to be done and done well for member storage going forward. there is a lot I agree with and a few things I dont but can live with. One thing that needs to change is a tweak to the long term project storage. There needs to be clarity that the committee has discretion to extend a person's LTS based on circumstances (such as sick, dedicating huge amounts of time to the hackspace and too busy making the space better) case by case and all that. I think its implied and common decency but lets make it clear anyway. 

Now: discussions got messy, and tiresome and people gave up talking because they felt they were not listened to or just plain insulted. With Stanto stepping in this did improve thing but by that time some of the damage had been done. The hackspace should be about everyone having their say and not just the loudest voices. When it get argued and discussed about so much, its more important that people are listened to  while accepting that we cant please all the people all the time. 

So currently we have 1 proposal _Samwises

If you have a positive proposal- not just further criticism of Samwises then you have until Tuesday 9AM to make us aware of it. If no proposals come in then we go with Samwises. Over the next few days ( until Friday 9AM) you can tweak and fine up your proposal and if you have 2 members who agree it is  a decent proposal then we will vote on the ideas that  have been sponsored. You will also need a  practical way to implement the plan - that you should be involved in carrying out

If you do not wish to put a proposal up due the general unpleasantness that this has spawned so far you can contact me directly and I will present your proposal and take the brunt of any oncoming fallout. (or someone else who agrees to)  Make it a good proposal please :)

Whichever wins keep in mind will likely evolve over time if we decide its not working. 

Sorry this process may be a pain and drawing things out but it seemed the best way i could think of to draw this to a close while allowing members to be better engaged. Think this has been drawn out too long? See it as a lesson for doing it better next time. Think you don't have enough time? its been a big topic once before so most of you have had plenty of time to think of a good solution and we have new members coming in all the time so lets be ready for them asap. 

TL:DR

Didn't like Samwises proposal? Put a positive counter proposal together and announce by Tuesday 9AM You can improve on it until Friday 9AM by which time you need 2 other members as sponsors.  If you get that sponsorship it gets voted on- one member one vote. Not keen on presenting it yourself then you can get me or someone else to present it and take the flack. Timelines are not set in stone but would want a good reason to change them and not too much, lets get it settled asap but as democratically as possible. 

[Michael W]

IMO give new storage a 3 month trial and see what happens.

Definitely want to have 2 fire exits to the space. There's less window jump opportunity in lhs3. Should probably have fire practices too.

[Matt Collins]

Is this your opinion? Who says that we go with Samwise's proposal on Tuesday at 9am?

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[J C]

This is what i am laying out as a way forward to resolve this. I took an executive decision as we seemed no where better than we were last time this got discussed. And nothing happened as a result. This has an endpoint and final chance to let everyone be heard. 

[Andy51055]

My suggestion for a properly box-agnostic, flexible storage system: https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vTbAJiSIsXxezq6df8z1Crbfl7DfwUMlGYSmn3t0MywWr1ztg4YNzvesJYIze7fdn9386lLL8wsJR3k/pub

Note: it's just about the physical storage system not the rules, so it is relatively contention-free and safe to view.

I think it's open to suggestions so see what you think and let me know.

Cheers

[timpin .]

I can't open this document on my phone. :(

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[Andy51055]

Yes, sorry about that. I made the mistake of using the link Google docs told me to use.

Try this one instead: https://www.dropbox.com/s/c5fg6renponc4gp/storage%20proposal%20draft.pdf?dl=0
You can't leave comments on it but at least you can see it.

The only this that was different between the two was that I pointed out that nothing should be allowed to stick out of the slots as space is so limited. Long pieces can be stored on top of the unit or elsewhere and any pieces sticking out will be dealt with...

On Sunday, December 4, 2016 at 7:55:31 PM UTC, timpin . wrote:

I can't open this document on my phone. :(

Tim

[Christopher Stanton]

It worked in Google chrome on my phone btw

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[gkee...@hotmail.co.uk]

What's the thickness of the boarding we havr as it would end up taking a lot of weight. Other than that concern I do like that proposal.

[Daniel F]

Thanks to Andy for his submission.

In my mind it seems to encompass nearly all of the good points from Sam's whilst also being slightly more flexible and also substantially cheaper to set up.

If the space buys and supplies storage boxes then I'd personally want everyone to have an identical box. This could potentially mean nearly a grands worth of outlay to get started, if we get decent boxes and I frankly I thin kthey'd have to be.

The other bonus is that members who don't need as much space could potentially split a space diagonally and have half each. Everyone seems to win with that.

The only issue I see is that we need some procedure for warning people who leave their junk hanging out; but then I think we're going to need this going with Sam's option anyway.

There are a number of edge cases and issues around the side of this that I'm deliberately not addressing yet. Lets get the majority sorted out without spending much money to do so.

I also appreciate the request to get things done as soon as is humanly possible; I would point out that we've raced raced towards things in the past and expended money on them only to realise too late to turn back it's the wrong course of action. Less speed more haste, maybe?

I'm also (having read the backlog) absolutely faffing disgusted by some of the "discussion" that went on on various mediums and do not wish to see that repeated. Frankly the majority seems an obvious breakage of rules one and two and I'd politely remind and request people that we have more of the being awesome and less of the anatomical antithesis of this.

Does anyone else have a proposal that they're likely to submit? If so ASAP would be good then we can crack on...

Fligg.

PS> One thing that's entirely on the periphery, but: I'm OK with member storage being in a locked room (though I think it makes sense to use the walls upto the bathroom door as there's no throughway there). I do entirely object to it being a dark room; obviously lighting, but less obviously I put my food down and say that there needs to be a large window in the door. Ideally all the doors...

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[Andy51055]

Most of it is 15mm thick and it's dense, heavy board. As the uprights are only 41.5 cm apart, there should be enough vertical support to carry a good deal more weight than we will be giving it. Unless lump hammer collecting becomes a thing at the space ;-)

[Matt Collins]

I like Andy's proposal for member storage but what about large project storage, donations and tat that people leave out? Samwise's proposal is more comprehensive in that it covers those things so if it's one or the other I'd rather go with that.

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[Matt Collins]

Fligg what things have we spent money on and then regretted?

Also can you specify the discussions that have left you feeling disgusted?

Thanks

[Daniel F]

People lending and storing large tools is different to people hacking (or not) on oversized projects is different to members having a bit space and storage to call their own. 

I think it makes far more sense into tackling one thing at a time - as they quite obviously are distinctly different issues, rather than trying to shoehorn everything in at the same time just for the sake of it being comprehensive... (doing things for the sake of comprehensiveness leads to creationism and other such madness =P) 

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[Matt Collins]

Samwise's proposal covers all three cases

[Matt Collins]

Also, correct me if I'm wrong but Andy's proposal is what we have now (no system) but with new shelves?

[Daniel F]

Yes Matt, Sameise's proposal does indeed cover all three cases.

However, and I apologise for not making this more clear in my last message, I see the three issues as not the same.

This isn't to say that they're not all important, just that they merit three different discussions and frankly the outcome of 90% of member storage has no real reason to impact on what we do with either tool lendage or oversized projects.

I entirely fail to see what the difference is between everyone getting a space for a box and everyone getting a space. Other than the fact hackspace has to outlay for a tonne of boxes to make sure they're all the same. 

Fligg. 

[Matt Collins]

So lets adopt Andys proposal for member storage and Samwises for abandoned things and large project storage?

If we just adopt Andys we aren't really changing anything. Whilst its a good physical solution to storage and neat use of the materials we have it doesn't propose a system of management or a way of fairly governing use of the space.

[Matt Collins]

sorry, abandoned = left things.

[gkee...@hotmail.co.uk]

I would agree dealing with buildtherobots about large project storage/tool donation lending secondary to normal member proposal.

I think a hybrid of Andy idea of the storage it's self combined with the samwise other good points.

[Andy51055]

This was my idea and I'm sorry for not making it clearer. It was never intended to be a 'him or me' binary option.

None of my suggestion was intended to cover how the storage was used; for that we still only have Samwise's proposal. Mine is just about the optimal way to use the space and how to build as much storage for as little cost as possible and with as much flexibility of use as possible. The aim was to clear the back areas of the space and give us the framework of a workable system asap.

I was trying to avoid dealing with how we maintain order and slap wrists but as it seems required here are a few thoughts:

I agree with the bulk of Samwise's proposal (large project storage etc) And that there would need to be a zero tolerance rule for extrusions from the slots (nothing poking out. If something is poking out it is pushed back into the slot, if pushing does not make it go back into the slot or an item if found on the floor is is put into  the 1st warning box. On the hackspace open day (2nd saturday of the month) the Items in the 1st warning box are photographed and put into the 2nd warning box. Photograph is then posted on the mailing list. Things in 2nd warning box to be absorbed into hackspace general stock, free to claimed by other members or binned on the following 2nd saturday of the month.
The same goes for unmarked stuff left out on work surface in the general hackspace.  The slot is yours to modify yourself if you wish to add lockable door to it but it must be clearly marked as your slot. Items in unmarked slots go in the 1st warning box.

Matt: This did not seem to work too well at the last place because it was not enforced. It just needs to be policed and enforced by the committee for it to work. Now is the ideal time to set up a new system, before people become used to the current chaotic setup. And if it is found to not work then it does not stop us from moving over to enforcing the 35liter really useful box at a later date when we/Samwise can afford it. That was part of the aim of flexibility.

[Stephen Rowley]

Allthough indo agree with Andy donations/ large project proposal. Also I must wipe my other half of this fecking phone.

[Samwise Wilson]

I like Andy's setup, in my original plan we were going to use half-depth dexion to store the 35L boxes, not the current full depth - this is the same dimensions as andys proposal but without the dividers - which im not sure you need if you adopt boxes.

I believe there is alot of value (possibly even more) in the LPS and donations side of things - space storage as a whole is made up of separate components but it makes sense to deal with them as a whole package because they share habits.

I do think we need to adopt and fleshi out the LPS, Donations and Consumables methodology. 

The nice thing with any member storage change is that we would free up standard ikea storage we already have (which is smaller) and thus better suited for use in zoned (e.g. by type area of space) consumables.

The core idea behind the whole thing is standardization, in a group space like ours being able to take a "tray / box" of tools out, do your work and put it back is great - if we lack enough tools we can just make another set in a tray/box and add it to the storage for the workshop per say - we have to plan for growth and make it fair for all, whilst at the same time actually creating processes where they don't exist.

[Samwise Wilson]

Although Andy I do think your zero tolerance policy is made much easier to work with a box :P 

[Andy51055]

Sadly the half-depth Dexion is only 40cm deep, so the 35l boxes stick out by 10cm, so can only be stored sideways. Because of the width of the shelves they only allow 1 box sideways per unit with tons of wasted space. And you can't make them lockable.

Personally, I would rather we dealt with the three aspects separately just so that we can get moving on at least part of it.

[Samwise Wilson]

20% of the proposal was member storage - the really important bits was the other stuff. Boxes just make it easy to administrate and standardise.

The dexion ive tried it on here fits a 35L box perfectly, but its MDF shelves, maybe its not all made equal!

Now we have the resource to make member storage lets do it, but we do need to agree on LPS and Donations / Junkage.

e.g. if it dont fit in your box / slot then LPS. 

[samson B]

I like your idea Andy it optimise the space so we can have units on both sides and having doors on the front is a good idea. :)

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[Daniel F]

Just to clarify, I very much like Sam's proposal especially the policy parts (sticking with just member storage for the time being) - I just instinctively prefer the idea of people having a space rather than having a box. That's my personal preference anyway.

Sam points out that the zero-tolerance approach to people hanging out is made easier with a box. - Personally I'd say this makes little difference unless there is then a zero-tolerance policy to people having things outside their box but still within their slot - and frankly, as long as it's not getting in the way for other people, should we really be policing that?

As part of the 3-box warning -> bin policy, I'd probably suggest calling people out publicly on the mailing list should be the first port of call (this is made easier if everyone's slot is obviously labeled). I'm not sure if step one is "<name> you need to move this" or "<name>, I have moved this for you"

Probably worth starting a new thread for the LPS and donations - though I'd point out here and now there's two distinctly different sort of donations too, namely "here's some stuff can you make use of it" and "here's a large <tool/resource> that you can either have or home on a semi-permanent basis".

With thanks,

Fligg

[J C]

Thank Andy for your alternative proposal to regular member storage, and thank you everyone else for input and discussion. 

Will put voting mechanism together tonight/ tomorrow. 

I agree that proposals in the future might be better dealt with in modular sections where possible (not ruling out presenting several modules together), as it allows better flexibility to choose what suits us going forwards. We might also want to look at guidelines for writing proposals, receiving feedback, counter proposals and how final decisions are made on them. 

Fligg, you are right in that we do get both types of donations but I think we can leave the tool/ resource type out as a separate issue for now with a different can of worms for another day. As for benching Samwises suggestions for LPS and "stuff" donations I think we should at least put them as separate votes. No counter proposals have been put together for them yet despite discussion especially last time round. Could be voting options of "yes that seems worth a try" and "nope thats a terrible idea". Considering the amount of stuff we had to bin from the last space over altogether too busy week at the end plus a fair bit of work leading upto it we have to do something and I would be surprised if people have much enthusiasm for much discussion on it, especially after the various unpleasantness on this theme to date.  Voting will help find that out for us. 

Keep in mind that these would be trials too. the LPS and the donations proposals dont cost us much (use dexion and buy a couple of boxes and some coloured labels?) We can trial it and stop it or adjust it if not working, It may even inspire a better idea to overhaul it.  We just need to be clear to people that it is a trial - could review properly in 4 months say but in the meantime people should raise issues found with it, suggestions for improvement and as always appeal to directors if desired or necessary. 

As for notifying people about their stuff yep can contact people directly where its obvious but wont always be, and I strongly feel "<name>, I have moved this for you". Its going to be a small tight space with people likely needing a step up stool to reach things on higher shelves, things on the floor or poking out should be moved for safety.

  

Joe

[Andy51055]

A link to my proposal where you can add comments: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_SDLjBvMujcBeqMDjcMofCkfHC1Ojo2PDsrtvtTsbjw/edit?usp=sharing