Supporting XBRL in Ledger

[Charles Hoffman]

Question for this group.  Are you aware of XBRL?  Is there anyone interested in investigating adding the capability to map XBRL concepts to the Ledger chart of accounts.  This would enable the ability to enter a transaction and then the transaction could "flow" all the way through to an XBRL-based financial report.  Further, if one additional code was added to the general journal, you could also automate the process of creating a correct cash flow statement.

There are lots and lots of other possibilities such as turning Ledger into an expert system for accounting and reporting.

For a plethora of information about XBRL, please see my blog:

http://xbrl.squarespace.com/

Fundamentally, if you got the right metadata, which properly created XBRL taxonomies can provide, there is a boatload of tasks that can be automated: accounting, reporting, auditing, and analysis.

For more information, please see:

http://xbrl.squarespace.com/journal/2020/4/1/record-to-report-plus.html

http://xbrl.squarespace.com/journal/2020/2/21/digital-financial-reporting-the-big-picture-in-pictures.html

http://xbrl.squarespace.com/journal/2020/2/20/trends-in-financial-reporting.html

Cheers,

Charlie

https://www.linkedin.com/in/charleshoffmancpa/

[o1bigtenor]

On Mon, May 4, 2020 at 4:07 PM Charles Hoffman <perfe...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Question for this group. Are you aware of XBRL? Is there anyone interested in investigating adding the capability to map XBRL concepts to the Ledger chart of accounts. This would enable the ability to enter a transaction and then the transaction could "flow" all the way through to an XBRL-based financial report. Further, if one additional code was added to the general journal, you could also automate the process of creating a correct cash flow statement.
>

snip

Nope - - - - never heard of it.

I spent about 10 minutes reading through most of your links (I read
very very quickly).
Was looking for the 'one additional code' that would be added to the
general journal.
Sure didn't find any examples - - - - lots of other things but never that.

For me - - - - what is the 'magic' code?

(Speaking only for myself and not at all for anyone in the ledger dev
group. In fact
I find that ledger is a far more useful tool for book keeping that any
other tool I've had
the opportunity to look at. Looked at some that weren't too cheap but
am finding
that ledger is a far more flexible tool (flexible in use rather than
in flexible in
recording - - - - haven't yet run into a system that can't be
manipulated but ledger
in is simplicity and transparency of function comes pretty close to
achieving that.)

Regards

[Charles Hoffman]

I was able to get done what I needed to get done using the normal mechanism for specifying accounts and comments.  This is what I came up with:

http://xbrlsite.azurewebsites.net/2020/master/automation/TrialBalance.dat.txt

Ledger is one of the coolest software applications that I have seen in a long time.  In fact, the whole "plain text accounting" movement is a really good thing in my view.  See:

http://xbrl.squarespace.com/journal/2020/5/5/plain-text-accounting.html

Cheers,

Charlie

[John Wiegley]

>>>>> "CH" == Charles Hoffman <perfe...@gmail.com> writes:

CH> Ledger is one of the coolest software applications that I have seen in a
CH> long time.  In fact, the whole "plain text accounting" movement is a
CH> really good thing in my view.  See:

CH> http://xbrl.squarespace.com/journal/2020/5/5/plain-text-accounting.html

This is great, Charles! I am so happy to see the two projects able to
coordinate like this.

John

[o1bigtenor]

I'm trying to understand what this 'XBRL' is giving me.
I have been able to use 'ledger' and its flexibility to create
'reports' so that my financial activities are easy
even though still tedious. The advantage to using this 'XBRL' system
is the pretty picture type of output.
Is that what the 'XBRL' system is about?

Regards

[o1bigtenor]

On Wed, May 6, 2020 at 7:29 AM o1bigtenor <o1big...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 8:18 PM Charles Hoffman <perfe...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > I was able to get done what I needed to get done using the normal mechanism for specifying accounts and comments. This is what I came up with:

snip

> >> Fundamentally, if you got the right metadata, which properly created XBRL taxonomies can provide, there is a boatload of tasks that can be automated: accounting, reporting, auditing, and analysis.
> >>
> >> For more information, please see:
> >>
> >> http://xbrl.squarespace.com/journal/2020/4/1/record-to-report-plus.html
> >>
> >> http://xbrl.squarespace.com/journal/2020/2/21/digital-financial-reporting-the-big-picture-in-pictures.html
> >>
> >> http://xbrl.squarespace.com/journal/2020/2/20/trends-in-financial-reporting.html
> >>
>
> I'm trying to understand what this 'XBRL' is giving me.
> I have been able to use 'ledger' and its flexibility to create
> 'reports' so that my financial activities are easy
> even though still tedious. The advantage to using this 'XBRL' system
> is the pretty picture type of output.
> Is that what the 'XBRL' system is about?
>

(likely shouldn't be even answering my own question and its become
a rant detailing how accounting systems really don't seem to connect
with what's actually happening out there. )

Really hadn't heard of XBRL before this thread started.

Sounds like a reasonable recordkeeping idea.
(Idea seems to be largely a XML for recordkeeping data. Its not really
multi-lingual
though and its really not clear if its seriously multi-national in
scope either.)

Wonder what the uptake by major corporations is like?

Regards

[Charles Hoffman]

XBRL provides a global standard logical conceptualization of a financial report and a global standard machine-readable physical syntax.  This enables the creation of algorithms for performing many of the tasks and processes that were only able to be performed by humans manually in the past.

Cheers,

Charlie

On Monday, May 4, 2020 at 2:07:46 PM UTC-7, Charles Hoffman wrote:

[Charles Hoffman]

XBRL is, in fact, multi-language. The European Union publishes their ESMA XBRL Taxonomy in 26 different languages.

XBRL is used by over 100 different regulators in 60 countries:

https://www.xbrl.org/xbrl-around-the-world/

Every public company that is regulated by the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission has used XBRL since 2009: (about 6,000 companies and 5,000 mutual funds)

https://edgardashboard.xbrlcloud.com/edgar-dashboard/

Every bank that is regulated by the FDIC has used XBRL since 2003: (about 6000 banks)

Every energy company regulated by the FERC will start using XBRL in 2021: (about 650)

Every listed company in the European Union reports to the European Single Market Authority (ESMA) using XBRL starting this year: (about 10,000 listed companies)

I could go on and on...

Cheers,

Charlie

On Monday, May 4, 2020 at 2:07:46 PM UTC-7, Charles Hoffman wrote:

[o1bigtenor]

On Wed, May 6, 2020 at 9:13 AM Charles Hoffman <perfe...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> XBRL is, in fact, multi-language. The European Union publishes their ESMA XBRL Taxonomy in 26 different languages.
>
> XBRL is used by over 100 different regulators in 60 countries:
>
> https://www.xbrl.org/xbrl-around-the-world/
>
> Every public company that is regulated by the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission has used XBRL since 2009: (about 6,000 companies and 5,000 mutual funds)
>
> https://edgardashboard.xbrlcloud.com/edgar-dashboard/
>
> Every bank that is regulated by the FDIC has used XBRL since 2003: (about 6000 banks)
>
> Every energy company regulated by the FERC will start using XBRL in 2021: (about 650)
>
> Every listed company in the European Union reports to the European Single Market Authority (ESMA) using XBRL starting this year: (about 10,000 listed companies)
>
> I could go on and on...

Hmmmmmmm - - - - and yet when I was trying to connect with retailers
re: a small processor
project that I've been working on - - - - not one company even asked
for EDI in any way
shape or form. There was no mention of anything that remotely equated
to XBRL for
financial document interchange. What was really frustrating was that most of
these retailers expected a phone call where a itemized request list
would be given as an ordering method.

For a small company the regulatory environment already results in a
3/4" stack of paper
which needs to be closely monitored updated at least annually in many
parts and that is
only for the operational systems. Every contact had their own
expectations for connection and ordering and payment - - - - - well
then things got real interesting. There was never any mention of
anything like an electronic interchange of data never mind anything
like XBRL.

Maybe XBRL is used by governments and outward facing documents in
large corporations.
Is it actually being used throughout the entire supply chain anywhere?

Regards

[Charles Hoffman]

With all due respect, I think you are asking the wrong question.  How many people were asking for an iPhone before Steve Jobs created it?  How many people asked for driverless cars?

Yes, you are right about EDI.  It was way too technical.  But look at how you can now take a picture of a check on your iPhone and deposit that check into the bank.  Some clever person thought up that idea.

PriceWaterhouseCoopers predicts “Global GDP will be 14% higher in 2030 as a result of AI – the equivalent of an additional $15.7 trillion. This makes it the biggest commercial opportunity in today’s fast changing economy”

https://www.pwc.com/gx/en/news-room/press-releases/2017/ai-to-drive-gdp-gains-of-15_7-trillion-with-productivity-personalisation-improvements.html

What I am talking about has less to do with XBRL, more to do with the automation of accounting, reporting, auditing, and analysis processes and tasks.  XBRL is simply an enabler.

Cheers,

Charlie

[o1bigtenor]

On Wed, May 6, 2020 at 10:04 AM Charles Hoffman <perfe...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> With all due respect, I think you are asking the wrong question. How many people were asking for an iPhone before Steve Jobs created it? How many people asked for driverless cars?

I didn't ask for an iPhone - - - - because it really doesn't do what I
need to get done.
A driverless car may work in urban or somewhat urban settings - - - -
be quite useless out in the country.

>
> Yes, you are right about EDI. It was way too technical. But look at how you can now take a picture of a check on your iPhone and deposit that check into the bank. Some clever person thought up that idea.

The clever idea is great for those that need to deposit a check.

None of what you have mentioned so far enables nor assists in commerce
between small businesses and very large ones.
What you have outlined as solutions are solutions in search of problems.
Major corporate entities are quite parsimonious when it comes to their
internal functions.
Senior management typically really doesn't know much about what it
takes to do the business.
When it comes to serious internal organizational change - - - - well -
- - - - you are the guru - - - - please tell me how many fortune 500
companies are using XBRL internally AND for sourcing?

>
> PriceWaterhouseCoopers predicts “Global GDP will be 14% higher in 2030 as a result of AI – the equivalent of an additional $15.7 trillion. This makes it the biggest commercial opportunity in today’s fast changing economy”
>
> https://www.pwc.com/gx/en/news-room/press-releases/2017/ai-to-drive-gdp-gains-of-15_7-trillion-with-productivity-personalisation-improvements.html
>
> What I am talking about has less to do with XBRL, more to do with the automation of accounting, reporting, auditing, and analysis processes and tasks. XBRL is simply an enabler.

I really like the idea but this seems very much like a theory vs
practice situation.
In theory x y and z are important.
In practice - - - - things need to get done and theory - - - - well
we'll discuss that after work when we're relaxing.

Harsh - - - - maybe - - - - but having spent 100s of hours trying to
figure out how to connect to a distinct group of large firms and
finding that there was precious little logic and immense hurdles which
seemed to get more unusual and more complex with the size of the
organization - - - - I'm a tough sell on the wonders of technology in
commerce. In some parts its embraced but in some others - - - - - I
wonder if it might be easier to use Teletype machines (I was given
contact information for use of Teletype from one of the firms) - - - -
so crazy obsolete technology - - - - and major firms were still
seeming to expect its use.

(Ledger is so flexible that really - - - nothing needs changing - - -
yet its accessible without specialized technology.
Can yank all kinds of information fairly easily from the text file - -
- I am amazed at how easy it is to package up
a lot of things into a single line of command and a whole year's worth
of data is summarized for only a specified
range of accounts. I've been thinking on how to use Ledger to do
invoice and statement aging - - - - I don't think
that most Ledger users are needing these kind of functions but the
design is elegant enough to accommodate
even this much stretch. Now maybe I should work on a way to convince
the huge companies that Ledger far
outperforms their hugely obsolete accounting systems . . . (LOL
- - - - crazy!).)

Regards

Regards