Linn LP12 vs. Ariston RD11s

[John Mayberry]

A bit off topic, but there's an Ariston for sale with some interesting
text:

Were the Beautiful Ariston RD11 Turntable & the Linn Sondek LP12
Separated at Birth?

Offering for sale is the Very Rare and Gorgeous 1970’s Ariston RD-11s
Turntable with a superb SHURE SME 3009 tone arm and Sumiko Oyster
cartridge. In the "side-by-side" comparison photo it is the one on
the right side with the Linn turntable on the left side. While the
cartridge is in good shape, you will definitely want to upgrade this
Sumiko cartridge to match the quality of the tone arm and turntable.

This is an Unmodified All Factory Original (except replacement dust
cover, drive belt and cartridge) Ariston Turntable in Fantastic
Operating and Cosmetic Condition and Fully Serviced by a Linn Factory
Certified Technician Willy Hermann! Cosmetically, it does have a few
scuffs on the cover, and a variety of small scrapes & scratches on the
plinth, chassis and platter, as well as some very minor deterioration
to the chrome finish on the tonearm. However, as you can see from the
photos, the cosmetic blemishes are extremely minor - it looks and
plays fantastic!

The similarities between the Linn and the Ariston turntables are truly
amazing – so much so that many upgrades for the Linn LP12 Sondek (like
the Valahalla electronics package, Nirvana springs upgrade, etc) also
will fit almost all Ariston RD-11 turntables.

Few people today know about these Ariston turntables, or their
meteoric rise and fall in the mid 1970’s. Fewer still know the very
intriguing history that the Ariston RD-11 was in fact the predecessor
to the world famous and enduring Linn LP12 Sondek turntable, and that
the Linn was based upon this prior Ariston design. Both turntables
were machined in the same Castle Engineering factory in Scotland, with
the Ariston preceding the Linn by three years.

There are many variations of this story, but what is undisputed is
that Hamish Robertson, the founder of Ariston, designed the Ariston
RD11 in 1971, and contracted Castle Precision Engineering to machine
the critical tight tolerance tapered shaft and bearing assembly that
is key to the superb results of both the Ariston and the Linn. In
1973, just 2 years after it had begun, Hamish Robertson left the
company he founded after it was taken over by Dunlop. Within a year,
Ivor Tiefenbrun (the son of the owner of Castle Engineering) debuted a
new company and a new turntable design that looked – interior part for
part – like an exact replica of the Ariston RD-11 turntable with a few
cosmetic changes. That new company was Linn, and the turntable was
the Linn Sondek LP12, which would go on to become perhaps the most
enduring turntable of all time.

In those early years for Linn, the Sondek LP12 was not only
essentially identical to the Ariston RD-11, it was at first even
marketed that way. In Vol. 6, issue No. 2 of the February 1973 Hi-Fi
News & Record Review, Linn announced the release of their new LP12
turntable with the following text: "The turntable previously available
under the name Ariston RD11 is now available under the name Linn
LP12”.

There is a fascinating write up of this intriguing historical fact by
David Price in a 1998 article for HiFi World – here is the link:

http://www.hi-fiworld.co.uk/hfw/oldeworldehtml/aristonturntable.html

I own both this Ariston RD-11s turntable and a Linn LP12 Sondek, and
the similarities are amazing. This RD-11s is a 1974 model, built
after Hamish had left the company and after the Linn LP12 had first
hit the scene. I own both, and took a number of side-by-side photos
and you can see the cosmetic similarities for yourself. Same
platter / sub-platter design, same basic dimensions, same basic
electronic system, similar design elements, and –if you look inside,
it is even more eerily similar with the same suspension elements and
layout with the major difference is that the arm board on the Ariston
is not detached.

[John Mayberry]

 

[Bruce Lankford]

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Mayberry" <emm...@emmaco.com>
To: "Lecson Audio" <lecson...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:14 AM
Subject: Linn LP12 vs. Ariston RD11s

A bit off topic, but there's an Ariston for sale with some interesting
text:

Were the Beautiful Ariston RD11 Turntable & the Linn Sondek LP12
Separated at Birth?

Offering for sale is the Very Rare and Gorgeous 1970�s Ariston RD-11s

Turntable with a superb SHURE SME 3009 tone arm and Sumiko Oyster
cartridge. In the "side-by-side" comparison photo it is the one on
the right side with the Linn turntable on the left side. While the
cartridge is in good shape, you will definitely want to upgrade this
Sumiko cartridge to match the quality of the tone arm and turntable.

This is an Unmodified All Factory Original (except replacement dust
cover, drive belt and cartridge) Ariston Turntable in Fantastic
Operating and Cosmetic Condition and Fully Serviced by a Linn Factory
Certified Technician Willy Hermann! Cosmetically, it does have a few
scuffs on the cover, and a variety of small scrapes & scratches on the
plinth, chassis and platter, as well as some very minor deterioration
to the chrome finish on the tonearm. However, as you can see from the
photos, the cosmetic blemishes are extremely minor - it looks and
plays fantastic!

The similarities between the Linn and the Ariston turntables are truly

amazing � so much so that many upgrades for the Linn LP12 Sondek (like

the Valahalla electronics package, Nirvana springs upgrade, etc) also
will fit almost all Ariston RD-11 turntables.

Few people today know about these Ariston turntables, or their

meteoric rise and fall in the mid 1970�s. Fewer still know the very

intriguing history that the Ariston RD-11 was in fact the predecessor
to the world famous and enduring Linn LP12 Sondek turntable, and that
the Linn was based upon this prior Ariston design. Both turntables
were machined in the same Castle Engineering factory in Scotland, with
the Ariston preceding the Linn by three years.

There are many variations of this story, but what is undisputed is
that Hamish Robertson, the founder of Ariston, designed the Ariston
RD11 in 1971, and contracted Castle Precision Engineering to machine
the critical tight tolerance tapered shaft and bearing assembly that
is key to the superb results of both the Ariston and the Linn. In
1973, just 2 years after it had begun, Hamish Robertson left the
company he founded after it was taken over by Dunlop. Within a year,
Ivor Tiefenbrun (the son of the owner of Castle Engineering) debuted a

new company and a new turntable design that looked � interior part for
part � like an exact replica of the Ariston RD-11 turntable with a few

cosmetic changes. That new company was Linn, and the turntable was
the Linn Sondek LP12, which would go on to become perhaps the most
enduring turntable of all time.

In those early years for Linn, the Sondek LP12 was not only
essentially identical to the Ariston RD-11, it was at first even
marketed that way. In Vol. 6, issue No. 2 of the February 1973 Hi-Fi
News & Record Review, Linn announced the release of their new LP12
turntable with the following text: "The turntable previously available
under the name Ariston RD11 is now available under the name Linn

LP12�.

There is a fascinating write up of this intriguing historical fact by

David Price in a 1998 article for HiFi World � here is the link:

http://www.hi-fiworld.co.uk/hfw/oldeworldehtml/aristonturntable.html

I own both this Ariston RD-11s turntable and a Linn LP12 Sondek, and
the similarities are amazing. This RD-11s is a 1974 model, built
after Hamish had left the company and after the Linn LP12 had first
hit the scene. I own both, and took a number of side-by-side photos
and you can see the cosmetic similarities for yourself. Same
platter / sub-platter design, same basic dimensions, same basic

electronic system, similar design elements, and �if you look inside,

it is even more eerily similar with the same suspension elements and
layout with the major difference is that the arm board on the Ariston
is not detached.

I had what I believe was an original Ariston RD11. It had a full length
armboard, on/off switches were two square buttons near the front, left of
the top plate. One was green, the other black. This was identical to the
original LP12.

The only difference that I can recall was that the LP12 had two screws
adjacent to the motor to allow for adjustment so that the belt ran over the
'crown' of the pulley.

[John Mayberry]

My RD11s had a single big red rocker switch...

John

[John Stocker]

How does the Ariston Qdeck series compare.

John Stocker

On Tue, 16 Mar 2010 11:09:24 +1300, John Mayberry <emm...@emmaco.com>
wrote:

> My RD11s had a single big red rocker switch...
>
> John
>

--
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

[steve195527]

I have owned both a very early linn and an original RD11(not RD11s):-
main differences that I could see was the rocker switch(they both had
a big red one in the same place)was rotated through 90* in comparison
with each other,my Ariston was single speed like the Linn but had a
clutch type arrangement on the motor pulley to aid starting up and the
main bearing used a ball in the bottom rather than the single point
one of the Linn,the early Linns also had the underside of the platter
finished in a kind of hammerite finish,other than these points,mainly
cosmetic they seemed pretty much identical:-I think at that time the
Ariston was a bit of a work in process because I did see them around
that time with different switches and a friend had one with a point
bearing:-possibly one of the ones made by what became Linn for Hamish
Robertson before the you know what hit the fan!

[steve195527]

PS both my Ariston and Linn had full length armboards the only
difference between them being the insignia

> > Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client:http://www.opera.com/mail/- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Roger Olney]

I own two Linn LP12s; one is a (relatively) straightforward LP12 from
the 80's with a Linn LVX arm, the other is an "LP12" with a Grace G707
arm which the sales receipt describes as having been converted from an
Ariston RD11. I have owned the latter since the late 70's having
bought it secondhand.

Physically there really isn't much difference between the two - the
main being that the "RD11" has a significantly heavier inner and outer
platter with a Hammerite finish on the underside, a slightly different
bearing housing and a different motor and pulley. The inner and outer
platters are not interchangeable. I have not tried putting the RD11
inner platter into the LP12 bearing or vice versa and would rather not
given that both will have developed individual wear patterns over
time.

Sonically the "RD11" seems to have the edge for reasons that are
pretty subjective and which I find difficult to describe (though
neither are up to todays best digital standards by a long way in my
view; I have no real nostalgia for vinyl). A few years ago I
performed a rough and ready test on the platters to see which would
spin the longest. So I removed the drive belts, sped them up by hand
to 100 rpm and timed how long each took to return to stand still. The
RD11 won by a mile. Admittedly this might simply have been due to the
extra weight of the platter, however I am inclined to believe it was
due to the machined accuracy of the bearing (even though they are
supposed to be the same). This is further born out by the fact that
the RD11 bearing is very sensitive to temparature fluctuation - by way
of example, if the RD11 is mounted above any heat generating source,
such as a power amp, the platter will "seize".

BTW - we need to be clear there is a significant difference between
the RD11 and the RD11S - the latter did not share the same bearing -
the RD11S had a captive ball assembly unlike the LP12. This link has
details - http://www.vinyldisc.co.uk/isitlinn.htm

Roger.

> > > Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client:http://www.opera.com/mail/-Hide quoted text -

[Bruce Lankford]

I would prefer that we did not go down the sonic route here! Early serial
numbers could also result in a bunfight regarding which is better/heavier.

Physically, the early models of each had the black and green buttons on the
left of the top plate, the hematite or hammertone finish and the full
length armboard. The dust covers might have been different, possibly due to
cost.

What will spin the longest? Physics suggests that the heaviest will, unless
there are other factors and I have heard that bearing friction can be a
problem with low mileage units in hot weather!

----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Olney" <roger...@hotmail.co.uk>
To: "Lecson Audio" <lecson...@googlegroups.com>

[Martin Layton]

Hi all,

I must be honest, I was never taken in by all the Linn Hype, rubbish in  rubbish out ect..

To me, as long as one had a good source, the biggest differance for the money was always, and is, the speakers.

I can totally believe the Linn having copied the Ariston story and it would not surprise me in the least., just reinforces my belief.....Thanks for the enlightenment John.

For the money, there are better decks to be had and much more of an investment. as can be seen from the discussed article...ie:- Ariston.

Just my two cents worth.

Hope I have not opened a can of worms here.

Martin

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[steve195527]

I don't go with all the Linn bull but the biggest difference made to
any of my systems was replacing an Ariston RD11 with an Hydraulic
Reference,that was a big change for the worse(sorry to all you fans)I
then replaced that with the Linn,would have been another RD11 but in
the meantime(approx 9 months)they seemed to have vanished from sale:-
That's prob when the original Rd11 became the Linn??:-anyway that gave
me back the tightness and clarity that had vanished using the
Hydraulic!(I bought it for its looks!!)Everything else in the system
stayed the same so a TT can make a big difference but I don't think
its down to some magic more like its immunity to feedback on the
minutest scale

On Mar 18, 5:07 pm, Martin Layton <martinlayton....@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I must be honest, I was never taken in by all the Linn Hype, rubbish in
> rubbish out ect..
>
> To me, as long as one had a good source, the biggest differance for the
> money was always, and is, the speakers.
>
> I can totally believe the Linn having copied the Ariston story and it would
> not surprise me in the least., just reinforces my belief.....Thanks for the
> enlightenment John.
>
> For the money, there are better decks to be had and much more of an
> investment. as can be seen from the discussed article...ie:- Ariston.
>
> Just my two cents worth.
>
> Hope I have not opened a can of worms here.
>
> Martin
>

> On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 1:02 PM, Bruce Lankford <blank...@bigpond.net.au>wrote:
>
>
>
> > I would prefer that we did not go down the sonic route here! Early serial
> > numbers could also result in a bunfight regarding which is better/heavier.
>
> > Physically, the early models of each had the black and green buttons on the
> > left of the top plate, the hematite or hammertone finish and  the full
> > length armboard. The dust covers might have been different, possibly due to
> > cost.
>
> > What will spin the longest?  Physics suggests that the heaviest will,
> > unless there are other factors and I have heard that bearing friction can be
> > a problem with low mileage units in hot weather!
>
> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roger Olney" <

> > roger.ol...@hotmail.co.uk>

> > details -http://www.vinyldisc.co.uk/isitlinn.htm

> > lecson-audio...@googlegroups.com<lecson-audio%2Bunsubscribe@google­groups.com>

> > .
> > For more options, visit this group at

> >http://groups.google.com/group/lecson-audio?hl=en.- Hide quoted text -

[John Mayberry]

I've owned a couple of dozen turntables over the years.

I'd concur on the Transcriptors/Michell Hydraulic Reference table- gorgeous
to look at, not many positive sonic merits.

Having also owned both Linn and Ariston decks (as well as setting them up
for Absolute Audio and buying into the myths), I thought them both fairly
crude in their construction. The machine work was good, but nowhere near
the military aerospace machining standards commonplace in California back
then and now mostly gone.

The suspension for both was basically out of blacksmith's shop, showing
virtually no sophistication in compliance adjustment. Basically the
suspension on both was very poor.

The plinth woodwork was good, but nowhere near the quality you'll see with
the Garrard 301/401 crowd or even with the Technics SP10 fanatics.

It took years for Linn to sort out that a synchronous motor was not ideal
(along with all the overhyped modifications- what marketing though!).

The dustcovers were very nicely made for both Linn and Ariston- light years
ahead of the nursery school kids that failed finger painting used by Michell
in their construction.

Overall, they were good decks in their time that have long been surpassed.

Last night one of friends brought over an Audi R8 V10 (apparently the only
one in the US right now) and let me have a spin. I did get a renewed
appreciation of how many things have changed...

[steve195527]

I almost bought an Oracle(1st model) from the local dealer I used at
the time and always regretted not doing,looked the dogs and worked
well as well:-I still think they are best looking deck ever(apart from
perhaps the Gale)

[John Mayberry]

The Oracle was/is an engineering and production masterpiece.

It was an incredible experience pulling one out of a box for the first time.

The similarities with the Gale turntable are obvious.

John

[organstan]

I agree John

I bought an Oracle way back when at the time they first appeared. I
still have that turntable although I haven't used it for some years.
I wonder if someone still makes replacement belts?

The design was really well thought out and the construction quality
was superb. Made in Canada I think?
Certainly at the time I thought that whole layers of colouration and
muddle disappeared compared to the Linn LP12.

Stan

[John Mayberry]

Oracle's still in business and I'm sure they have belts. Those belts are
precision machined as well.

http://oracle-audio.com/product_delphimkv_eng.html

J. Peter Moncrieff wrote an outstanding article on the turntable at the time
and compared it to the Linn back in the early '80's. Actually used some
impulse tools and FFT vibration analysis.

John

[Pete Wilson]

I'm fully prepared to believe this (look at how much better speakers have got, due to better mechanical engineering understanding and implementation since the '80's).

But my goodness, altho' mine is at best Valhalla'd, has only an RB300 arm and a V15 MXR (can't last toooo much longer: Ortofon M2 black seems to be an obvious replacement, tho' that Soundsmith chappie seems to have some magic going on in the ~$700 region...) it sounds a lot like music. Especially with the PS Audio GCPH phono front end wot I just bought.

The trouble is, my LP12 is paid for and works, and 'surpassing' turntables cost an aerosol amount of money, and I have Scottish heritage....

I also wonder if good MM cartridges (generally higher compliance) don't excite the turntable a lot less than typical low-compliance MC cartridges, and therefore - since lower energy - excite many fewer (or magnificently lower-level) resonances/colorations from the table.

Oh well; life would be easier if things cost the same, but I had $10M in the bank...

-- P

On Mar 18, 2010, at 1:38 PM, John Mayberry wrote:

> Overall, they were good decks in their time that have long been surpassed.
>

------------------------------------------------
Pete Wilson :: pete [at] kivadesigngroupe.com
cell: (512) 577-1618 fax: (512) 259-1595
104 Forest Trail::Leander::TX::78641-9398::USA
pictures at http://kivadesign.smugmug.com
linked-in members:http://www.linkedin.com/in/peterjwilson
================================================

[John Mayberry]

I'm not sure whether arguing about beer or turntables is a more worthless
endeavor. That being said, you can get great sound out of a Linn.

It's very much a euphonic device I think rather than a technically accurate
machine for dragging a stone though a plastic valley without creating sound
of its own. That's not necessarily a bad thing.

It really wasn't until the advent of FFT analyzers that serious vibration
analysis was practically possible, ironically about the time that only a
fool would make that kind of investment in a new turntable design.

I spoke with Keith Monks son at the last CES about buying a record cleaning
machine. While the new one is beautiful with its German made medical
quality pump, it's also $8,000. I had assumed it was closer to $2,000 by
the look of it.

You can buy a decent used car for that price in the current economy in
California today. I gulped and wondered when the lottery would go my way.

I'm not sure what the logic is with the $150,000 turntable crowd. I spoke
one to one of the $5,000 well known turntable manufacturers at the same
show- their worldwide sales were 60 last year.
I'm guessing that $150k table had about two customers total.

The bottom line is if you like it, keep it, and enjoy it.

[Graham Pound]

Interestingly, sales of 'ultra high-end' stuff of all sorts (watches,
jewelry, cars, yachts, etc etc etc) are extremely good - there's a LOT
of hedgefund billionaires, not to mention the usual oil sheikhs etc,
who are desperate to find anything to spend their money on. They'll
buy a $150k turntable but, unless they remember which house they had
it installed in (and which room...) they may never see it, or notice
the dent in their bank balances. I believe Wilson speakers was
approached about building a 'half million dollar' speaker system
purely for export to HK/the far east. That was a good few years ago
and I guess they never bothered since we've never read about it (or
perhaps the Alexandria is as far as they dare go...) but it goes to
show.

Still, I think that the hifi industry and its customers are basically
insane. Hi tech continuously brings previously 'high' levels of
performance down to affordable levels as technology and manufacturing
continue to advance... and yet we continue to buy into paradigms from
the 1950s... We still tweak, we still assume it can't be good enough
unless it cost mortgage money, etc... Instead of being glad that
better hifi than ever is cheaper than ever, we continue to punish
ourselves with outmoded thinking. The result? And industry that is
dying out... when instead hifi should be ubiquitous.

If you have any doubts about hi-end dying out, look at the reaction on
the internet to any Bluray Disc playing costing more than 3 digits...
consider that the video quality ouput by any $50 graphics card beats
ANY dvd/video device at any price... well, anyway...

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[Graham Pound]

Yikes, horrible typos there :o

[Pete Wilson]

The best sort there is :-)

On Mar 19, 2010, at 6:05 AM, Graham Pound wrote:

> Yikes, horrible typos there :o

------------------------------------------------

[steve195527]

I've got a v15xmr with two good(one nearly new) stylii:-I don't like
the cartridge,make me a sensible offer!

>    pictures athttp://kivadesign.smugmug.com