Pipe Organ Too Loud?

[Sarah Reed]

Greetings,

I don't know if anyone reads this anymore, but I have a question/problem if there are any answers out there.

I've been a ward organist in my ward here in Madison, WI since I moved in five years ago. Our building has a 4 rank pipe organ. We recently had a change in the bishopric. The new bishop called the organists in for a meeting a couple of weeks ago. He told us he thought the congregation wasn't singing enough and he suspected it was because the organ is too loud and wanted us to come up with some alternative, softer registrations. I appreciate that he's concerned about congregational singing, although I disagree about the organ being too loud. I think it probably sounds too loud to him sitting right in front of it and also because he's been in a stake calling for the last 8 years or so and has only attended our ward 2-4 times a year during that time and isn't used to the pipe organ (we're the only unit in the stake with one). Also, 3 of the 4 current ward organists took group organ at BYU, just to give you an idea of our background and training.

Nevertheless, I thought I would ask if anyone has experience in using a pipe organ in LDS worship services and had a problem with it being too loud? I've also included a list of stops from our organ below, if anyone could give me suggestions to try (seems like I've tried everything over the last few years, but you never know!). Also, the FM group will only allow us to have the organ tuned in December, so by now the reeds are so out of tune with the rest of the organ we can't really use them.

Thanks,

Sarah Reed

Great: Principal 8'

Gedackt 8'
Gemshorn 8'
Octave 4'
Nachthorn 4'
Principal 2'
Mixture III
Swell to Great 8'

Swell: Gedackt 8'

Gemshorn 8'
Nachthorn 4'
Gemshorn 2'
Nasat 1 1/3'
Sifflet 1'
Schalmei 8'
Tremolo

Pedal: Subbass 16'

Principal 8'
Gedackt 8'
Octave 4'
Nachthorn 4'
Gemshorn 2'
Mixture III
Fagott 16'
Schalmei 4'
Great to Pedal 8'
Swell to Pedal 8'

[J.P. Tingey]

First off,  Lucky!!!  My old ward in Brigham City had a small pipe ensemble married to their organ and I miss the organic feel of the "slightly out of tune" ranks.  

As far as singing, it's been my experience that the louder you play, the louder they sing.  

Another issue that we had been having until I took over as ward organist was that we had a former choir teacher as a chorister.  She made sure that if it was in the Hymnal, we were darn sure going to sing it.  Our Stake leadership came to ward conference and three of the four songs sung no one, including that one High Councilman that seems so old as to have crossed with the handcart companies, knew them.  Nobody sang except the chorister.  The Stake Presidency then issued a letter that asked us to get back to, and I quote, "the standard songs of Zion that our ancestors knew and loved."  Since I am a converted trumpet/french horn player and have to fake playing the organ, it was very easy for me to come in and play the same 80 or 90 songs with some flavor thrown in on special occasions.

As far as what stops to use, our electric organ has three settings, Prelude/ Postlude Hymns, Sacrament Hymns and Congregational Hymns.  technically there is a fourth setting, Stake Conference Hymns, but since I am not the chosen organist, I've never had to use that one.  =0)

Good luck and thank you for your service behind the keys!

Just because the organ is furniture, doesn't mean those that use it are too!

JP

[Mike Carson]

Hi Sarah,
The pipes of our seven-rank Schantz are all enclosed. I always play for congregational hymns with the swell box open all the way or sometimes (depending on the hymn) partially open, and I've never had anyone in 10 years say the organ was too loud. I regulate the volume by the number of stops and degree of stop pitches I choose. (The more stops and the higher the pitches equal more volume, right?!)

An effective plan is to play the introduction with a bare principal chorus (8' and 4' stops and a light 2' if you have it) and then add more foundational pitches or a brighter stop on each verse. The singers get warmed up to the idea of singing as each verse progresses and will mirror the volume of the organ. In other words, if you don't blast them out with the introduction and first verse (depending on the hymn, of course) you can end up full volume by the end, and it's not noticeable; it's welcomed! On jubilant hymns, I may throw on a pedal reed on the last chorus or line with my, by then, full principal chorus with mixtures as the hymn comes to an end. It's the "throw the frog in a pot of boiling water" scenario: It will jump right back out of the boiling water. But, put the frog in warm water, heat it up gradually, and he's cooked!

Mike Carson

[David Chamberlin]

I thought the other responses were adequate - not sure I have anything to add - but another member prodded me to say something, perhaps because I am a pipe organ builder, professional organist, and LDS member (still in good standing, I think!).

Pipe organs are not necessarily louder or softer than electronics, although electronics usually allow more (unrealistic) control of volume, and many (untrained) organists in the church use that feature inappropriately/improperly/unrealistically.  Further, loudness may be perceived differently by different people - it can be very subjective - and what one is used to can be a major factor in that judgement.  It's always tricky suggesting to a priesthood leader that their opinion may be just that, not necessarily a prompting from the Spirit.  If he's open to the idea of you gathering feedback from people sitting more in the middle of the chapel, perhaps he'll be willing to ultimately trust your judgement.  On the other hand, if you learned in BYU Group Organ (fantastic program, don't get me wrong) that hymns should be played with a full principal chorus, including mixture, and your 4-rank organ is anything like other 4-rank organs I know, the mixture and even the 2' may actually be too loud.  With reference to another comment, yes, the louder you play the louder they'll sing - but only up to a point.  Screechy organs can have the opposite effect.  I haven't heard your organ or visited your ward - I'm just throwing out possibilities that could help to explain your problem.

Best wishes.

[Florence]

I like making an appointment to meet with a new bishop at the ward organ bench. It's a great time to find out his concerns, have him walk around the chapel to hear the sound drop-off, and (if needed) present musical alternatives to un-musical requests. It has been a great way for me to set the foundation for a good working relationship.

Also, here are links to a couple of blog postings that might be helpful: http://ldsorganist.wordpress.com/2012/07/18/working-with-church-leaders-an-organists-greatest-challenge/    and   http://ldsorganist.wordpress.com/2012/08/22/a-mercy-in-disguise/



good luck!

Florence

On Friday, July 26, 2013 4:31:16 PM UTC-6, Sarah Reed wrote:

[Mike Carson]

Hi Sarah,
The pipes of our seven-rank Schantz are all enclosed. I always play for congregational hymns with the swell box open all the way or sometimes (depending on the hymn) partially open, and I've never had anyone in 10 years say the organ was too loud. I regulate the volume by the number of stops and degree of stop pitches I choose. (The more stops and the higher the pitches equal more volume, right?!)

An effective plan is to play the introduction with a bare principal chorus (8' and 4' stops and a light 2' if you have it) and then add more foundational pitches or a brighter stop on each verse. The singers get warmed up to the idea of singing as each verse progresses and will mirror the volume of the organ. In other words, if you don't blast them out with the introduction and first verse (depending on the hymn, of course) you can end up full volume by the end, and it's not noticeable; it's welcomed! On jubilant hymns, you may throw on a pedal reed on the last chorus or line with the, by then, full principal chorus with mixtures as the hymn comes to an end. It's the "throw the frog in a pot of boiling water" scenario: It will jump right back out of the boiling water. But, put the frog in warm water, heat it up gradually, and he's cooked!

Mike Carson

On Friday, July 26, 2013 4:31:16 PM UTC-6, Sarah Reed wrote:

[Harold Stuart]

Yours is a common problem in the church.  I've dealt with it many times.  It can be really frustrating.

First of all, your bishop is just plain wrong.  Playing more softly does not inspire people to sing loudly.  In fact, as a couple of the other responses to your question have indicated, the opposite is true.  The volume of the instrument encourages people to sing loudly.  That being said, however, your bishop is still your bishop.  You need to find a Christ-like way of helping him understand.

A pipe organ in an LDS building is located at the center front of the room and the pipes speak almost directly into the bishop's ears.  A principle of physics says that the organ is loudest at the pipes and it tapers off very quickly the further you are from the source of the sound (the inverse square law, for those of you who care).  Since the bishop sits very close to the pipes, he gets a very distorted view of how loud the organ really is.  In my experience, this is what motivates the bishop to complain about the loudness of the organ in almost all cases.

Since you can't change the laws of physics, you should use other principles to help you.  I would suggest that you close the swell shutters completely for a couple of weeks, then have some friends in the congregation report to the bishop their honest opinion.  Please don't try to bias the outcome -- just tell them that the bishop has asked you to play differently and ask them to give him their honest feedback.  My guess is that you won't have a problem after that, especially if you gradually increase the volume level over a period of several weeks.  This approach is far, far better than getting into a dispute with your bishop that neither you nor he can possibly win.

Since you bring up this topic, I'll tell a story of how I've dealt with this issue in the past.  It's funny, in a geeky sort of way:

One day I am playing postlude and my bishop suddenly appeared at my side.  He wanted to talk to me, and I got the feeling really quick that he was upset with me.  Once I stopped playing, he simply said the following:  "Brother Stuart, we had a discussion in ward council about reverence before Sacrament Meeting, and it was suggested that people are noisy because the organist plays too loud.  Next week, play softer."  He then turned around and left.

I wasn't happy, to say the least.  There are only two classes of people that are supposed to be making noise during the prelude:  babies and the organist.  If people can't stop talking, that's not my fault.  We won't even talk about his manners at this point.  Although I wasn't happy, I realized that getting mad at the bishop wasn't going to accomplish anything.  Instead, I knew that my bishop was a fellow computer nerd -- and I know how to deal with that type of person.

That week, I went to Radio Shack.  I bought an inexpensive sound pressure level meter (commonly known as a decibel meter).  I put it on the organ the next Sunday.  The problem went away without another word spoken, as I thought it would, and I didn't soften the instrument one bit.  The meter was a bit of a challenge -- if he didn't like how loudly I played, he got to tell me, to a fraction of a decimal point, how loud I should be playing instead.  That was a battle he didn't want to engage in.  I put it on the organ a few more weeks.  It wasn't even on for the last couple of weeks.

Harold Stuart

Cambrian Park Ward

San Jose California South Stake

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "LearningOrgan" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to learningorga...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to learni...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/learningorgan.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
 
 

[Paul Slaughter]

First, let me echo the others that have already replied in saying that the congregation will sing more softly if you play the organ more softly.  However, yes, it is indeed possible to play too loudly - do you use the mixture much?  On those small 4-rank unit organs the mixtures sound unpleasant (especially up close!), due to the fifths in the mixture being derived from unison ranks - it's possible that the Bishop is reacting to this.  Possibly a little less use of the mixture might appease him.  Another thing you might want to bring up with the Bishop:  is this his own personal opinion, or did "someone" complain to him.  ("Someone" is usually nameless, and is the type of person that probably doesn't like singing, and thinks that hymns need to be sung quietly in order to be reverent.)  Either way, the Bishop definitely needs to experience what the organ sounds like from the pews on a Sunday while people are singing (NOT while the chapel is empty!) Be certain to demonstrate to him that soft registrations = reduced singing!

(Incidentally, your organ actually sounds like it's nicer than the two pipe organs in my Stake:  one chapel has a 5-rank instrument from 1938 - you could almost support the congregation with the high-pressure (thus very loud) 8 Open Diapason by itself! Our Stake center has a 9-rank organ, but it's too loud for weekly Ward meetings, but not loud enough for Stake meetings - you can never use the mixture or the trumpet for Sacrament Meeting, but full organ can't be heard beyond the 4th row of the cultural hall when the building is full.)

In case any one is curious, here are the stoplists:

Reuter Organ, 1938, Joseph St. Chapel, Moscow, ID

5 ranks, all enclosed in single swell box

Great

16' Open Diapason (from tenor C)

8' Open Diapason

8' Gedeckt

8' Dolce

4' Octave

4' Flute

4' Dolce

2' Flautino

(No Couplers)

Swell

8' Gedeckt

8' Quintadena (Synthetic)*

8' Salicional

8' Voix Celeste II

4' Flute

4' Salicet

4' Voix Celeste II

2 2/3' Nasard

8' Oboe (Synthetic)**

*Draws 8' Gedeckt + 2 2/3'

**Draws 8' Salicional + 2 2/3'

Pedal

16' Gedeckt

8' Diapason

8' Gedeckt

8' Salicional

4' Flute (was originally 8' Dolce)

(No Couplers)

Schantz Organ, 1994, Blaine St. Chapel (Stake Center), Moscow, ID

9 ranks, all enclosed in single swell box, except for lowest 12 principal pipes

I 16’ Gedeckt 85 Pipes 1-12 on offset chest

II 8’ Gemshorn 85 Pipes 1-12 on offset chest

III 8’ Trumpet 61 Pipes

IV 4’ Gemshorn Celeste 49 Pipes

V 2’ Principal 49 Pipes

VI 1/3’ Nasat 49 Pipes

VII 8’ Principal 44 Pipes 1-12 in façade (remainder of façade dummies)

VIII Mixture II-III 129 Pipes

551 Pipes total

Great

8’ Principal (from VII & V) 1-44 from VII, 45-61 from notes 9-25 of V

8’ Gemshorn (from II) 1-61 of II

8’ Gedeckt (from I) 13-73 of I

4’ Octave (from V & VII) 1-12 from 13-24 of VII, 13-61 from V

2’ Gemshorn (from II) 25-85 of II

Mixture II-III (from VIII)

Swell to Great 8’

Swell

8’ Gedeckt (from I) 13-73 of I

8’ Gemshorn (from II) 1-61 of II

8’ Gemshorn Celeste (from IV) Begins at Tenor C

4’ Koppelflöte (from I) 25-85 of I

2’ Gemshorn (from II) 25-85 of II

11/3’ Nasat (from VI) Begins at Tenor C

8’ Trumpet (from III)

Pedal

16’ Gedeckt (from I) 1-32 of I

8’ Principal (from VII) 1-32 of VII

8’ Gedeckt (from I) 13-44 of I

4’ Principal (from VII) 13-44 of VII

8’ Trumpet (from III) 1-32 of III

Great to Pedal 8’

Swell to Pedal 8’

[Ryan Ballantyne]

Dear Sarah:

 

As a Ward Organist, and organ builder who maintains many pipe, and electronic organs for the LDS church; I often find that those who are called to play musical instruments, deal with church leadership that mean well, but often don’t have a clue of what they are doing. Despite your training, you are dealing with a major problem that exists in the church musical training or the lack thereof, in the Church, for those that call, direct, and ultimately play the music.

 

Many priesthood leaders erroneously believe that just because, one knows how to play the piano, that automatically means that the same person can successfully play the organ. The fingering techniques, and more importantly registration choices make the organ sound the way it does. Often members are called, and don’t have a clue of what they are doing. And worse, they really do not have any direction from priesthood on how to play a service successfully. There are training resources, which are buried deep in the church’s web site, most notably Don Cook’s Organ Essentials. Although brief, Dr. Cook’s program is most helpful on what to do, and includes several preludes that are real gems! You also should ask for the Stake to further enhance your training by providing a budget for musical training.

 

Good music, well prepared, and presented will do more to bring the spirit in our meetings, than anything else that we do. The opposite is true as well; music poorly prepared will not bring the spirit as intended. We can no longer serve yesterdays leftovers on paper plates for worship. We must give our very best!

 

Dr. Wolford at BYU-I taught “that the text of the hymn usually dictates the volume or tone of the hymn” Properly done, the congregants will sing up to the organ. It is not about loud or soft, rather it’s about choosing the stops that are right for the hymn you are playing. Normally starting at a moderate level of volume and building up in volume is what I do. I also find that the members will sing up to the organ no matter how loud I register. It’s also important to council with priesthood leadership to choose hymns that people are familiar with. Or enlist the help of a ward choir to add support when introducing a hymn that is not often sung.

 

Is your organ installed in a Stake Center? I suspect that it is, since it has a pipe organ. I also would guess that it was voiced to be effective in a Stake setting with the back doors open so it is probably louder than you think. Admittedly your organ is limited in its stop choices. And I suspect that you find it hard to find a setting that is just right; it is either too loud, or too soft. Four ranks that are obviously unified is really not sufficient to build an appropriate ensemble. Might I suggest that you ask for an upgrade of the organ? I am well aware that Salt Lake will pay for upgrading, and tonally enhancing the pipe organs of the church. We have rebuilt several organs for the church in California, and in Idaho. In all of those projects we added the ranks that were needed to provide a proper ensemble. We also equipped the pipe organ with the standard playing aids found in today’s modern pipe installations, and Church approved electronic organs. This will make your job easier! I think you might find that if you ask for improvements you will find that you will get them. The person to talk to, to request these improvements is both your Bishop, and Stake President.

 

As far as tuning, Church policy is that the organs are to be tuned twice a year. Enlist the support of your Stake President to request that your organ be tuned twice a year; normally when the seasons change. Believe me if the Stake President does not know, or ask for it, it will not get done.

 

If I can offer additional help let me know!!! 951-283-1245

 

Sincerely,

Ryan Ballantyne

R.M. Ballantyne Pipe Organs

Jurupa Valley, California

951-283-1245

[David Keller]

Sarah,

I've had the good fortune of playing small (5- to 7-rank) pipe organs in 3 of the 4 chapels in which our ward has been assigned (and a standard-issue Allen organ substitute in the other chapel).  There's always a learning curve, trying to figure out how to make the organ, the room, and the congregation work together well. 

Your bishop identifies two issues:  (1) the congregation "not singing enough" and (2) the organ possibly being "too loud."  With four organists in rotation, I hope your bishop will understand that it may take some time to try some alternatives to see what actually may help the congregation feel more comfortable singing out.  And with that many organists, you have a good opportunity to give each other helpful feedback about how the organ and the congregation sound in different parts of the chapel. 

In addition to organ registration, other factors to consider (some already mentioned by other list members) include:
* How many people are in attendance at services?
* How well does the congregation know the hymns used?
* How much carpeting, drapery, and other sound-deadening material is in the room?  (People sing out better in "live," resonant rooms, but that isn't what the standard LDS architecture aims at.)
* Do most of the congregation members try to sing SATB parts or melody? 
* Do you have strong choir members whose voices can help support other singers in the congregation?
* Are there a few particularly strong voices in the congregation who unintentionally discourage less confident singers?

Pipe voicing also may be playing a role. 
In organs with full choruses, the 4' principal is scaled a bit smaller and voiced a bit softer than the 8' principal, with 2' and mutation stops (1-1/3') and mixtures scaled yet smaller and voiced softer.   In most small "unit" organs (where one rank of pipes provides several "stops" at various pitches), scaling is smaller and voicing softer with each ascending octaves in the rank.  But not necessarily.  If the upper pitches are too prominent, people hear the organ as "too loud."

Registration "fixes" you've probably already tried: 
* Use a reduced registration, or partially close the expression shades, for hymn introductions.  Then add stops and/or open the shades, building up under the congregation to support them. 
* Start with a moderate registration, and add (or subtract) stops between verses in response to the congregation. 
* Use mixtures and higher-pitched ranks more sparingly.
In our current chapel, I usually use 8' & 4' principals, and maybe a 2' flute, for sacrament hymns.  Yesterday I decided to try with just the 8' principal, with 8' & 4' flutes and strings, expecting to need to add the 4' principal for the 2nd verse.  To my surprise, the congregation responded very well.  Lesson:  In that particular room (long and narrow, with 1928 plaster on the walls and the high, rounded ceiling), the organ carries better than I had realized. 
In one of our chapels, the 8' principal was adequate by itself for sacrament hymns, unless we needed to open the overflow area. 
Of course, what sounds good in a near-empty chapel usually is underpowered when the room is full.  Let your ears guide you. 

And then it may be the congregation.
I grew up and have spent much of my life in wards with SATB part-singing traditions.  I think that's great.  But when I lived on the border of the Navajo reservation, I noted that very few of our Navajo members sang much above a whisper, because their musical traditions and experience were very different.  The last time I visited that ward, which is now more than half Navajo, the Navajo organist used the softest registrations possible.  Apparently that's the way they think hymn-singing is supposed to be. 
In our current Spanish-language ward, very few members sing SATB, again because that's not part of their tradition and experience.  But they don't hold back once they know the melody.  I've come to appreciate--even prefer--the strength of unison singing.  (The current bishop, however, is dismayed that the ward choir rarely tries to sing parts.  Well, bishop, we're working on it, but these Latin Americans are never going to sound like a choir of Welsh converts who've just emigrated to Nauvoo.) 
If your congregation sings better in "Because I Have Been Given Much," "I Stand All Amazed" and "I Know that My Redeemer Lives," maybe you can do something to encourage more unison singing.  Ask your choir members to sing unison while in the congregation. 

Again, I hope your bishop understands that it may take some time to change the congregational singing and is willing to let you figure out what does and doesn't seem to help.  Hope he also understands that some of the things you try may make the singing worse rather than better.  Keep us informed!

David

---

From: Sarah Reed <lambcurr...@gmail.com>
To: learni...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Friday, July 26, 2013 4:31 PM
Subject: [LearningOrgan] Pipe Organ Too Loud?