Modified Top 25 algorithm

[Christian Schaffner]

Hi guys

This question is mainly for Mark and Roger, but others might be
interested as well.

As I am totally uninformed about the US Ultimate scene, I was not aware
of this algorithm:
http://www.usaultimate.org/competition/club_division/club_series/club_rankings.aspx
which is now used to rank US club teams, but (a slight modification) has
previously been used to rank college teams
http://www.usaultimate.org/competition/college_division/college_season/college_rankings.aspx

Do you know the guy(s) who developed it? Does it work well? Is there
some mathematical foundation for it?

In general, how do you see the relationship between leaguevine and the
US score reporter site?

Best,
Chris

[Ben Murphy]

If you search on RSD (rec.sport.disc, or browse from
http://www.rsdnospam.com/ or
groups.google.com/group/rec.sport.disc/topics), you'll see numerous
posts describing it from all sides.

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[Mark Liu]

Hey Chris,

Sorry for the slow reply. As far as the algorithm goes, Ben's suggestion to look at old discussions of this will turn up more useful information than I can give. There are some articles on Skyd about the algorithm as well. Here's the first article in the series: http://skydmagazine.com/2012/03/rankings-under-the-hood/

As far as Leaguevine and the USAU Score reporter, I would love for them to be synchronized in some way. We've talked to USA Ultimate on some occasions, but they don't reveal much about their plans or intentions. The Score Reporter site is developed by a guy named Rodney who is working on his own for free (i.e. not employed by USAU) but I can't get ahold of him. Honestly, I don't forsee USAU opening up their data for us to either import Leaguevine data or export Score Reporter data.

Mark

[Calvin French-Owen]

Hey guys,

I had a little extra time while I'm rehabbing from ACL surgery, along with a few fresh ideas over the past couple of days - so I built out a scraper for score reporter.

It'll give you back json, where you can get a listing of teams:

http://scorereporter.jit.su/teams/open/

Or the information about an individual team:

http://scorereporter.jit.su/teams/open/12321

Just ignore the _id fields, they're thanks to the DB I'm using and I'm trying out a new driver. If you'd like to generate your own, I put up the scraper source on github: https://github.com/calvinfo/sr-api. There's no documentation there yet, but let me know if there's things that you can think of adding.

Running the scraper in series (and without any sort of speed improvements) it takes about 20 minutes to generate data for an entire division. I just have the open, mixed, and womens divisions so far. If I did it incrementally by tournament, it'd go much faster.

Anyone here think they can use this?

-Calvin

[Ben Murphy]

Yes! Scrape everything and then we don't need usau's help to get the data. 

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[Mark Liu]

Calvin, this is awesome. Great start. Do you think you could get the tournament level data going as well? With the game level info, it'd then be easy to build something to put old results into Leaguevine. That'd be sick.

Revisiting the topic of Leaguevine and USAU integration, I've talked to Will Deaver a bit more and they are standing very strong on their stance of not integrating with or utilizing Leaguevine in any way. They continue to tell us what they've been telling others which is that they are building their own fully integrated solution on their site. You can all make of that what you will, as your guess is as good as mine.

Mark

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http://facebook.com/leaguevine

[Christian Schaffner]

Hi guys

Do I understand correctly that Calvin's scraper serves the main purpose
of getting USAU results into leaguevine? From a European perspective, it
would be nice to import all the results from the the WFDF and the
European tournaments as well. They are usually using ulti-organizer
software, but export from there shouldn't be very difficult:
http://results.wfdf.org


To take this a step further, I was wondering what would be the easiest
interface for running my own rankings, mainly to compare different
ranking algorithms. Once all this game data is on leaguevine, it would
be very interesting to run the USAU algorithm (or modifications of it
such as proposed in
http://skydmagazine.com/2012/09/an-interpretation-and-critique-of-the-usau-ranking-algorithm/
)
How would an API look like that computes rankings based on a set of
leaguevine-games or tournaments or seasons?

We could compute a world-wide ranking of Ultimate teams... ;-)

Cheers,
Chris

On 30/09/12 03:37, Mark Liu wrote:
> Calvin, this is awesome. Great start. Do you think you could get the
> tournament level data going as well? With the game level info, it'd then
> be easy to build something to put old results into Leaguevine. That'd be
> sick.
>
> Revisiting the topic of Leaguevine and USAU integration, I've talked to
> Will Deaver a bit more and they are standing very strong on their stance
> of not integrating with or utilizing Leaguevine in any way. They
> continue to tell us what they've been telling others which is that they
> are building their own fully integrated solution on their site. You can
> all make of that what you will, as your guess is as good as mine.
>
> Mark
>
>
> On Sat, Sep 29, 2012 at 8:09 PM, Ben Murphy <murph...@gmail.com
> <mailto:murph...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Yes! Scrape everything and then we don't need usau's help to get the
> data.
>
>
> On Sep 29, 2012, at 3:01 PM, Calvin French-Owen <cal...@calvinfo.com

> <mailto:cal...@calvinfo.com>> wrote:
>
>> Hey guys,
>>
>> I had a little extra time while I'm rehabbing from ACL surgery,
>> along with a few fresh ideas over the past couple of days - so I
>> built out a scraper for score reporter.
>>
>> It'll give you back json, where you can get a listing of teams:

>> http://scorereporter.jit.su/__teams/open/
>> <http://scorereporter.jit.su/teams/open/12321>

>>
>> Or the information about an individual team:

>> http://scorereporter.jit.su/__teams/open/12321

>> <http://scorereporter.jit.su/teams/open/12321>
>>
>> Just ignore the _id fields, they're thanks to the DB I'm using and
>> I'm trying out a new driver. If you'd like to generate your own, I
>> put up the scraper source on

>> github: https://github.com/__calvinfo/sr-api
>> <https://github.com/calvinfo/sr-api>. There's no documentation

>> there yet, but let me know if there's things that you can think of
>> adding.
>>
>> Running the scraper in series (and without any sort of speed
>> improvements) it takes about 20 minutes to generate data for an
>> entire division. I just have the open, mixed, and womens divisions
>> so far. If I did it incrementally by tournament, it'd go much faster.
>>
>> Anyone here think they can use this?
>> -Calvin
>>
>> On Monday, September 10, 2012 4:41:41 PM UTC-7, Mark Liu wrote:
>>
>> Hey Chris,
>>
>> Sorry for the slow reply. As far as the algorithm goes, Ben's
>> suggestion to look at old discussions of this will turn up
>> more useful information than I can give. There are some
>> articles on Skyd about the algorithm as well. Here's the first
>> article in the

>> series: http://skydmagazine.__com/2012/03/rankings-under-__the-hood/

>> <http://skydmagazine.com/2012/03/rankings-under-the-hood/>
>>
>> As far as Leaguevine and the USAU Score reporter, I would love
>> for them to be synchronized in some way. We've talked to USA
>> Ultimate on some occasions, but they don't reveal much about
>> their plans or intentions. The Score Reporter site is
>> developed by a guy named Rodney who is working on his own for
>> free (i.e. not employed by USAU) but I can't get ahold of him.
>> Honestly, I don't forsee USAU opening up their data for us to
>> either import Leaguevine data or export Score Reporter data.
>>
>> Mark
>>
>>
>> On Thursday, August 23, 2012 4:53:41 AM UTC-4, Chris wrote:
>>
>> Hi guys
>>
>> This question is mainly for Mark and Roger, but others
>> might be
>> interested as well.
>>
>> As I am totally uninformed about the US Ultimate scene, I
>> was not aware
>> of this algorithm:

>> http://www.usaultimate.org/__competition/club_division/__club_series/club_rankings.aspx

>> <http://www.usaultimate.org/competition/club_division/club_series/club_rankings.aspx>
>>
>> which is now used to rank US club teams, but (a slight
>> modification) has
>> previously been used to rank college teams

>> http://www.usaultimate.org/__competition/college_division/__college_season/college___rankings.aspx

>> <http://www.usaultimate.org/competition/college_division/college_season/college_rankings.aspx>
>>
>>
>> Do you know the guy(s) who developed it? Does it work
>> well? Is there
>> some mathematical foundation for it?
>>
>> In general, how do you see the relationship between
>> leaguevine and the
>> US score reporter site?
>>
>> Best,
>> Chris
>>
>> --
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>> To post to this group, send email to
>> leaguevine...@googlegroups.com

>> <mailto:leaguevine...@googlegroups.com>.

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>> <mailto:leaguevine-devel...@googlegroups.com>.

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>
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[Calvin French-Owen]

Hey guys,

Yeah, that is the current goal - I'm hoping to hack something together in the next couple weeks where people can just write their own ranking functions and automatically run them against all the data. I got kind of swamped with work this past week, but I'll look into how the tournament data works as well as exposing better calls for looking at individual game data.

-Calvin

[Mark Liu]

Some responses below:

On Tue, Oct 9, 2012 at 5:10 AM, Calvin French-Owen <cal...@calv.info> wrote:

Yeah, that is the current goal

Excellent.

On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 9:45 AM, Christian Schaffner <hue...@gmail.com> wrote:

From a European perspective, it
would be nice to import all the results from the the WFDF and the
European tournaments as well. They are usually using ulti-organizer
software, but export from there shouldn't be very difficult:
http://results.wfdf.org

We'd love to have these results in Leaguevine as well. Even though I know you're not really developing ulti-organizer anymore, I know a lot of TDs still really like your system since they can host stuff on their own domain. And because people will likely keep using it, I'm guessing this integration will be useful for some time to come.

To take this a step further, I was wondering what would be the easiest
interface for running my own rankings, mainly to compare different
ranking algorithms. Once all this game data is on leaguevine, it would
be very interesting to run the USAU algorithm (or modifications of it
such as proposed in
http://skydmagazine.com/2012/09/an-interpretation-and-critique-of-the-usau-ranking-algorithm/
)
How would an API look like that computes rankings based on a set of
leaguevine-games or tournaments or seasons?

I'm thinking there would be a few steps here that would let us do this cleanly. 

1. Someone writes a script to grab all of the relevant data via the Leaguevine and bundles this into one big data dump in a downloadable file hosted either on Leaguevine or elsewhere. This script could run at systematic intervals so people can download this and apply their own algorithms to it whenever they want. The dump should be in some standardized format that makes running rankings algorithms easy and so people can use their same rankings algorithms on future data dumps for different leagues or years or whatever.
2. Anyone who wants can write their own rankings algorithms that take in that standardized data dump file and spit out rankings in another nice standardized format. This is definitely the fun step.
3. People take the rankings file that comes out of step 2 and post these everywhere. We can maybe add something on Leaguevine that can allow you to upload the rankings and have us display them nicely. 

Mark

[Christian Schaffner]

Hi guys

> From a European perspective, it
> would be nice to import all the results from the the WFDF and the
> European tournaments as well. They are usually using ulti-organizer
> software, but export from there shouldn't be very difficult:

> http://results.wfdf.org <http://results.wfdf.org/>

>
> We'd love to have these results in Leaguevine as well. Even though I
> know you're not really developing ulti-organizer anymore, I know a lot
> of TDs still really like your system since they can host stuff on their
> own domain. And because people will likely keep using it, I'm guessing
> this integration will be useful for some time to come.

Just to clarify, I have been only marginally contributing to the
development of ultiorganizer (basically trying to add Swissdraw
functionality, but it has never been tested nor used, as far as I know).
The project is maintained by the Finnish guys Kari Tolonen and Pasi
Nieminen. I nevertheless totally agree that people will keep using it
and it would be great to get this data into leaguevine.

>
> To take this a step further, I was wondering what would be the easiest
> interface for running my own rankings, mainly to compare different
> ranking algorithms. Once all this game data is on leaguevine, it would
> be very interesting to run the USAU algorithm (or modifications of it
> such as proposed in
> http://skydmagazine.com/2012/09/an-interpretation-and-critique-of-the-usau-ranking-algorithm/
> )
> How would an API look like that computes rankings based on a set of
> leaguevine-games or tournaments or seasons?
>
>
> I'm thinking there would be a few steps here that would let us do this
> cleanly.
>

> 1. Someone writes a script to grab all of the relevant data via the

> Leaguevine and bundles this into one big data dump in a downloadable
> file hosted either on Leaguevine or elsewhere. This script could run
> at systematic intervals so people can download this and apply their
> own algorithms to it whenever they want. The dump should be in some
> standardized format that makes running rankings algorithms easy and
> so people can use their same rankings algorithms on future data
> dumps for different leagues or years or whatever.

Sounds like a great idea, does anybody have experience with such a
format? So far, I've been processing the JSON responses I get from the
leaguevine-API, but it does contain lots of extra information, and as
far as I recall, I needed several calls to get all the data I wanted
(for one tournament).
If somebody has a proposal for a format, I'm happy to have a look at it.

> 2. Anyone who wants can write their own rankings algorithms that take

> in that standardized data dump file and spit out rankings in another
> nice standardized format. This is definitely the fun step.

Yep, that's the fun part.

> 3. People take the rankings file that comes out of step 2 and post

> these everywhere. We can maybe add something on Leaguevine that can
> allow you to upload the rankings and have us display them nicely.

It would be great if the data could be displayed nicely back on Leaguevine.

Cheers,
Chris

> > <mailto:murph...@gmail.com <mailto:murph...@gmail.com>>>

> wrote:
> >
> > Yes! Scrape everything and then we don't need usau's help
> to get the
> > data.
> >
> >
> > On Sep 29, 2012, at 3:01 PM, Calvin French-Owen
> <cal...@calvinfo.com <mailto:cal...@calvinfo.com>

> > <mailto:cal...@calvinfo.com <mailto:cal...@calvinfo.com>>>

> >> <mailto:leaguevine...@googlegroups.com

> <mailto:leaguevine...@googlegroups.com>>.
> >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> >> leaguevine-devel...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:leaguevine-developers%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
> >>

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> <mailto:leaguevine-developers%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>>.
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> > 630-738-9280 <tel:630-738-9280>

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