tech.lds.org

[Jesse Stay]

I am starting to think the purposes of this group have been accomplished.  When we started it our goal was to have a place for like-minded Open Source advocates and supporters to write, share, and promote code and technology that worked for the good of Zion.  The Church took notice, and started http://tech.lds.org to continue this effort.  Tom Welch, who is in charge of it, is doing an excellent job under the direction of the Church CIO and the brethren to promote and encourage community involvement in Church projects.  Just today he was showing off to me projects that would have normally cost the Church thousands of dollars and were now practically no cost due to the donation of the hard-working time and talents of IT talent amongst the Church members.

For that reason, I'm wondering if this group even serves a purpose any more.  Are we now distracting from the efforts of http://tech.lds.org by keeping this group around?  It is rarely used as is any more partly because of that reason.  Is there any reason to keep this list or the wiki around any more?  What can we do to start diverting more of what we're  doing here over to http://tech.lds.org?  I'm interested in your thoughts.

Thanks,

--Jesse

Co-Founder, LDSOSS.org

[Jesse Stay]

Brandon, yes - I encourage you to check the site out. (see the "Forum" link at the top of the site)  You can also get to the Forums here: http://tech.lds.org/forum/ - there isn't a mailing list at the moment, but I'm sure the more people that voice their opinion on that the more likely you'll see a mailing list as well.  There's a wiki, a community, and a whole list of projects you can get involved in.

Jesse

On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 11:11 AM, Brandon Stout <b...@flfn.org> wrote:

Does tech.lds.org have a mail list we can all switch to?  A forum might
also be alright, but a mail list is more convenient to me when I have a
question.  If they don't have a mail list, I vote to keep this mail list
running.

Brandon

[Lars Rasmussen]

I vote in favor of retaining the email list.
The signal to noise ratio on the list is great. Threads are
informative, if infrequent.
--Lars

[Jesse Stay]

Lars, if tech.lds.org implemented an e-mail list would you still have need to keep this one?

Thanks,

Jesse

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[Manfred Riem]

I think there still would be value to leave the group active. Not all the projects

are going to accepted by the church, and some might still be valuable for other

people.

Manfred

--

[Jesse Stay]

Manfred, my worry is that no one is using this group to create projects any more though.  Are people going to use it for things tech.lds.org won't solve if we keep it around?

[Jay Askren]

Not to mention, people can post non church sponsored projects on tech.lds.org.  There have been quite a few posted already.  There is probably a wider audience in fact on tech.lds.org for such projects.

Jay

[Manfred Riem]

I would be more inclined to keep the list around since it is a community held list, versus

a company held list.

[Jesse Stay]

Manfred, what advantages does that give us that http://tech.lds.org doesn't?

[Manfred Riem]

A community held list does not have an agenda beyond what the community wants.

[Jesse Stay]

Doesn't this community have the same agenda as the church?  I'm confused - this isn't community vs. the BigCo here. This is community organizing to help the faith we're all members of.

[Manfred Riem]

From a business perspective the church has things they need accomplished and they

do not necessarily need to be aligned with what the LDS community would want.

 

Also from a legal perspective I would want to keep projects that are not started

by the Church separate. This to avoid any confusion on who is responsible for what.

 

Anyway, just my feelings on the matter. This after having dealt with some licensing

issue regarding so open-source software that was not really open-source.

[Sean Gates]

I agree Jesse. I think there is a feeling that some want to see some independence, although I feel the church has opened up much more than I ever thought they would.

Also, I feel we should be just as willing (if not more) to devote our time to the church's projects as to the list's.

My two cents. 

--

Sean

(Sent from my iPhone)

[Greg Warner]

Hmm... Joel Dehlin acknowledged that the church doesn't really do OSS: http://www.ldscio.org/2009/05/20/mormon-open-source-open-for-business/ (see comments)

That said, does anybody know how tech.lds.org supports non-church endorsed OSS?

[John Harrison]

I'm with Manfred on this.  Having interacted with the Church in business dealings (a story I don't care to recount here) I can tell you for certain that there is value in having an independent forum, and no downside that I can see.

best regards,

John

Manfred, my worry is that no one is using this group to create projects any more though.  Are people going to use it for thingstech.lds.org won't solve if we keep it around?

 

On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 8:18 PM, Manfred Riem <mr...@manorrock.org> wrote:

I think there still would be value to leave the group active. Not all the projects

are going to accepted by the church, and some might still be valuable for other

people.

Manfred

 

From: lds...@googlegroups.com [mailto:lds...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Jesse Stay
Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 2:55 AM
To: Jesse Stay
Subject: [LDSOSS] tech.lds.org

 

I am starting to think the purposes of this group have been accomplished.  When we started it our goal was to have a place for like-minded Open Source advocates and supporters to write, share, and promote code and technology that worked for the good of Zion.  The Church took notice, and started http://tech.lds.org to continue this effort.  Tom Welch, who is in charge of it, is doing an excellent job under the direction of the Church CIO and the brethren to promote and encourage community involvement in Church projects.  Just today he was showing off to me projects that would have normally cost the Church thousands of dollars and were now practically no cost due to the donation of the hard-working time and talents of IT talent amongst the Church members.

 

For that reason, I'm wondering if this group even serves a purpose any more.  Are we now distracting from the efforts ofhttp://tech.lds.org by keeping this group around?  It is rarely used as is any more partly because of that reason.  Is there any reason to keep this list or the wiki around any more?  What can we do to start diverting more of what we're  doing here over to http://tech.lds.org?  I'm interested in your thoughts.

 

Thanks,

 

--Jesse

Co-Founder, LDSOSS.org

[Jesse Stay]

Okay, let's put it this way - if we keep the list around, will people still continue to use http://tech.lds.org and donate time there, or is this going to distract from that?

[Bill Pringle]

It is not a good idea to depend on a web site for participation.  There will be many people who will read email about things and eventually become interested enough to go to the web site.  If you depend solely on the web site, how will they find out about it?

Rather than the list distracting people from the web site, the list is more likely to attract people to it instead.

Bill Pringle
Freelance Webmaster, Software Consultant
Bi...@BillPringle.com
http://BillPringle.com http://CherylWheeler.com

[Alex Esplin]

On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 16:21, Jesse Stay <jess...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Okay, let's put it this way - if we keep the list around, will people still
> continue to use http://tech.lds.org and donate time there, or is this going
> to distract from that?

There's more than one
not-officially-approved-but-still-incredibly-useful application that
members of this list have contributed to. The fact is that a desire
to work on a project of that nature does not make anyone an apostate.
Additionally, I know several people who are likely to continue to work
on projects of this nature for the LDS audience, but who don't care
for business/technical/whatever reasons to work under the umbrella and
oversight of the Church.

People who are willing to accept the oversight constraints of working
on Church-approved/sponsored software can still learn about
http://tech.lds.org from this list, and people who aren't _but are
still creating software that can move the kingdom forward_ can use
this list.

No problems either way.

--
Alex Esplin

[Manfred Riem]

Hi Alex,

Well put!

Manfred

-----Original Message-----
From: lds...@googlegroups.com [mailto:lds...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of
Alex Esplin
Sent: Friday, February 05, 2010 11:09 AM
To: lds...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [LDSOSS] tech.lds.org

No problems either way.

--
Alex Esplin

--

[Jay Askren]

There seems to be the underlying assumptions that ldstech is only for church sponsored/approved/endorsed projects.  This is not the case.  I would guess that most of them are not.  I've posted a link to my own project on lds tech, and it is not in any way sponsored, endorsed, or approved by the church.  There certainly are official church sponsored projects on ldstech, but most of them are relatively new.  When it first started, there weren't any church sponsored projects on ldstech.

The major difference I see between ldstech and ldsoss is that ldstech has a much larger audience and is much larger in scope.  I suspect that much of the content on the ldsoss site is duplicated on the ldstech site.

Jay

[Jesse Stay]

I agree with Jay - I don't see what the point of this list is any more.  If we continue it, who wants to manage it, as I don't see the point if lds tech is much larger, still serves the exact same purpose, and provides even more resources than ldsoss can provide.  IMO, this list is a distraction from people realizing things like what Jay mentions - that you can do the same things on lds tech as you can here and more.

Jesse

[Manfred Riem]

OK, my main reason for not fully endorsing LDSTech to host projects of my own is that if I would

do something like the model of JBoss it could potentially give the Church legal problems (read

their tax-exempt status). If someone from the legal arm of the Church could give me clarification

on that, I would be less hesitant.

 

Manfred

[Jay Askren]

I see what you are saying Manfred.  That is a good point.  I didn't realize that LDSOSS even had a CVS repository to host projects.  I haven't used ldstech to store my source code, and I'm not even sure they have a source code repository for non-church sponsored projects.  I've only posted links to my projects on the ldstech website.  What advantage does the ldsoss cvs repository offer that SourceForge, Google Code, or any of the other free source code repositories don't offer? 

Jay

[Manfred Riem]

My personal preference would be to either migrate completely or not at all. Disparate locations

are not my thing ;)

MAnfred

[Jay Askren]

I think I misunderstood you Manfred.  

Unless I'm missing something, it doesn't look like ldsoss offers project hosting.  The page that talks about hosting refers to sourceforge and savannah: http://ldsoss.org/index.php/Project_Hosting  It looks to me like it only offers a place to post links and descriptions about projects , which is what I understand ldstech does.  I'm not a lawyer, but I wouldn't think there would be any legal implications or any implied endorsement, since ldstech would not be hosting your project as ldsoss does not host your project.  

Jay

[Jesse Stay]

Yeah we had talked about hosting before but decided it was too much to
manage. LDSOSS is for links, sharing, and discussion only, which is
what lds tech does.

On Friday, February 5, 2010, Jay Askren <jay.a...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I think I misunderstood you Manfred.
>

>  <http://ldsoss.org/index.php/Project_Hosting>Unless I'm missing something, it doesn't look like ldsoss offers project hosting.  The page that talks about hosting refers to sourceforge and savannah: http://ldsoss.org/index.php/Project_Hosting  It looks to me like it only offers a place to post links and descriptions about projects , which is what I understand ldstech does.  I'm not a lawyer, but I wouldn't think there would be any legal implications or any implied endorsement, since ldstech would not be hosting your project as ldsoss does not host your project.

--
Jesse Stay
CEO, SocialToo.com / Stay N' Alive Productions, LLC
http://staynalive.com/consulting
http://staynalive.com/speaking

Co-Author, I'm on Facebook--Now What???
Author, FBML Essentials

[Manfred Riem]

Not entirely, I can easily host on Google code and put my stuff out there.
Since the LDSOSS
group is already hosted on Google's infrastructure I don't require anybody
to get yet another
user account. Hence my point of before ;)

Manfred

--

[Jesse Stay]

I don't get what that has to do with LDSOSS - we don't provide hosting, and you have a Google account regardless.  You don't need an account to read the forums at lds tech I don't believe.  It's only if you contribute, and if you contribute, you're simply required to have an LDS account, which you should already have if you're a member of the church.

Jesse

[Jay Askren]

So, there have been several people who have argued to keep the list.  I haven't heard anyone who wants it enough that they will step up and manage the list.  It should be pretty easy.  In the last year there have only been twenty or so discussions.

Jay

[Jesse Stay]

Yeah - if someone wants to manage it, I'm all for keeping it around, although I'll probably participate more on lds tech.  If not, I say we dissolve it and start moving things over there.  I'm still not convinced this list is needed any more.  I'm certainly listening though!

Jesse

[Jay Askren]

Jesse, I assume you are also paying for/managing a server and domain name and you would prefer if someone took over those costs/management as well.  Is that correct?

Jay

[Jesse Stay]

Jay, actually, the Domain is being managed by others.  I am handling hosting - I'm happy to keep it around for awhile, but I'd eventually like to transfer that over if people still insist on keeping it around.  I haven't seen anyone willing to step up, nor have I seen any convincing arguments as to why we should keep the group around.  Thus far it seems lds tech solves all our needs that this group fulfills.

Jesse

[Manfred Riem]

At least we are in a luxury situation of being able to make this decision. People that have relied

on Sun’s infrastructure are in for a rough ride ;)

[Manfred Riem]

At least we are in a luxury situation of being able to make this decision. People that have relied

on Sun’s infrastructure are in for a rough ride ;)

 

Manfred

[Shawn Willden]

Most of the people who prefer a mailing list won't go to the forum to
request one.

I agree that unless another mailing list is created, this one should
be kept open for those of us who don't like web fora.

I'm not sure what the requests for an offer of someone to "manage"
this mailing list are about. It doesn't seem like there's any effort
involved in managing a Google Group.

On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 12:23 PM, Jesse Stay <jess...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Brandon, yes - I encourage you to check the site out. (see the "Forum" link
> at the top of the site)  You can also get to the Forums
> here: http://tech.lds.org/forum/ - there isn't a mailing list at the moment,
> but I'm sure the more people that voice their opinion on that the more
> likely you'll see a mailing list as well.  There's a wiki, a community, and
> a whole list of projects you can get involved in.
> Jesse
>
> On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 11:11 AM, Brandon Stout <b...@flfn.org> wrote:

>>
>> On 02/03/2010 02:55 AM, Jesse Stay wrote:
>> > I am starting to think the purposes of this group have been
>> > accomplished.  When we started it our goal was to have a place for
>> > like-minded Open Source advocates and supporters to write, share, and
>> > promote code and technology that worked for the good of Zion.  The
>> > Church took notice, and started http://tech.lds.org to continue this
>> > effort.  Tom Welch, who is in charge of it, is doing an excellent job
>> > under the direction of the Church CIO and the brethren to promote and
>> > encourage community involvement in Church projects.  Just today he was
>> > showing off to me projects that would have normally cost the Church
>> > thousands of dollars and were now practically no cost due to the
>> > donation of the hard-working time and talents of IT talent amongst the
>> > Church members.
>> >
>> > For that reason, I'm wondering if this group even serves a purpose any
>> > more.  Are we now distracting from the efforts of http://tech.lds.org
>> > by keeping this group around?  It is rarely used as is any more partly
>> > because of that reason.  Is there any reason to keep this list or the
>> > wiki around any more?  What can we do to start diverting more of what
>> > we're  doing here over to http://tech.lds.org?  I'm interested in your
>> > thoughts.
>> >
>> > Thanks,
>> >
>> > --Jesse
>> > Co-Founder, LDSOSS.org
>>

>> Does tech.lds.org have a mail list we can all switch to?  A forum might
>> also be alright, but a mail list is more convenient to me when I have a
>> question.  If they don't have a mail list, I vote to keep this mail list
>> running.
>>
>> Brandon

>
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Shawn

[Manfred Riem]

Hi Shawn,

I think they are not only talking about the mailing list.

Manfred

-----Original Message-----
From: lds...@googlegroups.com [mailto:lds...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of

[James Vann]

If there is a need for someone to manage the list and/or website, and no one else is interested, please contact me and I'll see if it is something I can do- I have a web hosting and development company, so I should have the resources to handle it.

James Lee Vann
Founder, Ensign Technologies LLC
LinkedIN Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/jamesvann
Facebook: www.profile.to/jamesvann
Skype: james.lee.vann
Phone: 417.429.2036