Lc0 will participate at the WCCC? Wow!

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Martin Renneke

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Jul 11, 2018, 1:04:29 PM7/11/18
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Hi all. That sounds very interessting. Refer to the blog for details. WCCC is the world champion chip for chess computer. Tomorrow the player will setup there environment and on Friday 13th July they'll start. But who is the player using lc0 and what kind of machine is he using? Thx. Martin. 

John D

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Jul 11, 2018, 2:22:17 PM7/11/18
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not sure; since it wasn't in the blog i'd imagine nothing was official as of the writing. which presumably means it was just decided by the organizers & how the hell are they gonna do this in 2 days??

Jesse Jordache

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Jul 11, 2018, 3:25:36 PM7/11/18
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There's been grumblings about it for a while, championed on the con side by Chris Wittington who's pointed to ethically questionable actions by the group that organizes the WCCC, and on the pro side by no one in particular, arguing that as the TCEC was putting off making a decision about GPU's, presumably while they consulted the pay engines that Leela makes look silly (a subset that does NOT include Stockfish), it's likely that they'll return a CPU only decision which leaves the WCCC as the only available competition.

M

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Jul 11, 2018, 3:31:33 PM7/11/18
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Surprising news indeed, given that the tournament will already start tomorrow. But why doesn't Leela participate in blitz?

Last year WCCC was well before the Alpha Zero shock to the computer chess world. It will be interesting to see if the deep learning approach has influenced other participants in some way.

Matt Blakely

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Jul 11, 2018, 3:48:51 PM7/11/18
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Where can I follow the games and/or results?

What is the time control?

I can't find much good info on google

Martin Renneke

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Jul 11, 2018, 3:48:57 PM7/11/18
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Am Mittwoch, 11. Juli 2018 19:04:29 UTC+2 schrieb Martin Renneke:
Hi all. That sounds very interessting. Refer to the blog for details. WCCC is the world champion chip for chess computer. Tomorrow the player will setup there environment and on Friday 13th July they'll start. But who is the player using lc0 and what kind of machine is he using? Thx. Martin. 


From Borg I got the info that this was discussed somewhere in June already in the dev community. A 8 GPU Computer with P40 or newer Nvidia from Western Digital Research will be used in the world championchip. From my understanding a lot of effort was spend to make lc0 working on multi GPU environments. I think this year it's a little bit early for the world championchip, but this might help to get more GPU power in place. Let's look what will happen at the WCCC. 

The rules are here: http://icga.org/?p=2343

It's a 45 minutes game + 15 Seconds per move. So let's keep fingers crossed for the tournament. 

Dietrich Kappe

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Jul 11, 2018, 4:35:41 PM7/11/18
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No big discussion. A third party with a ton of gpu offered to do it and it was “pax vobiscum” from there. We’ll see how it goes.

Nabil Danial

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Jul 11, 2018, 4:44:48 PM7/11/18
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Cyril (the operator/rep of leela on WCCC) said on Discord that it is going to be 8 V100s. Its gonna be awesome.

Jesse Jordache

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Jul 11, 2018, 5:12:15 PM7/11/18
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What kind of processing power do other engines bring to the event?

Jesse Jordache

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Jul 11, 2018, 5:16:40 PM7/11/18
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I think a lot of.. not to use the word "tantrum", but a lot of "who entered Leela?  Whooooo did it?  Let me tell you why this is a bad idea.  And here's the same reason again.  The devs need to consider because they're going to lose a ton of credibility.  Well I guess no one here cares about credibility" etc, although at the end the general concept of "open source and its consequences: 101" were brought up.

Nabil Danial

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Jul 11, 2018, 5:41:07 PM7/11/18
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Jonny used to use a cluster of 2400 cores in several WCCC events in the past, so I'm expecting the same this time. GridGinkgo was using some 200+ cores cluster and Komodo was on a 60+ cores machine. I don't know what they plan to use this time around though.

Ron Langeveld

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Jul 11, 2018, 5:46:31 PM7/11/18
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Sorry Jesse, but is there any coherent thought coming up soon? I don't have the faintest clue what you trying to say here. I hope it doesn't refer to one of your other posts. It's hard to keep track on a train of thought via this forum.

Matt Blakely

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Jul 11, 2018, 6:13:28 PM7/11/18
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Care to share why?

Please don't say because you think it will do poorly.  Because on that hardware it should compete for the win.

Dietrich Kappe

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Jul 11, 2018, 6:15:35 PM7/11/18
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He’s referring to the Rybka kerfuffle.

Chris Whittington

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Jul 11, 2018, 6:20:48 PM7/11/18
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There's also the zxvega plus issue

FWCC1

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Jul 11, 2018, 6:54:13 PM7/11/18
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Thought Leela HAD TO USE CPU ONLY

FWCC1

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Jul 11, 2018, 7:08:26 PM7/11/18
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Looks like there is a speed chess format also,Leela should do well in that format. NN seem to have a great intuitive grasp of chess.

Martin Renneke

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Jul 12, 2018, 2:53:24 PM7/12/18
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I'm sorry. I misunderstood the schedule information. The WCCC - World Championchip for chesscomputer will start at Monday 16th July. 

Albert Silver

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Jul 12, 2018, 3:10:32 PM7/12/18
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Why would it need to use CPU only??

FWCC1

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Jul 12, 2018, 3:58:10 PM7/12/18
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Just read the rules she can use GPU,they say 8xV100

Rudolf Posch

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Jul 16, 2018, 3:46:20 AM7/16/18
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Currently Leela Chess Zero plays live against Komodo, see http://view.livechesscloud.com/7c104c94-c119-441e-a444-b0f22a1880d0

John D

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Jul 16, 2018, 4:04:18 AM7/16/18
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thanks for the heads up, but i'm not getting anything with either link (second one is a redirect to itself, first has no action, including opponent names

Tryfon Gavriel

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Jul 16, 2018, 4:05:14 AM7/16/18
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It is a bit tricky:

Click on the "vs"

Then click on Round 1

John D

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Jul 16, 2018, 4:10:14 AM7/16/18
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got it now, thanks guys

Chris Whittington

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Jul 16, 2018, 5:27:54 AM7/16/18
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looking like a draw (move 38), although Leela can often manage to snatch a defeat from drawn position

Tryfon Gavriel

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Jul 16, 2018, 5:45:02 AM7/16/18
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This seems to be an endgame thriller from what I just saw - I thought Komodo's plan of a4 was to make Nb5 winning - by winning the a3 pawn

But then Leels played the super mysterious Rg8 - and I could only imagine it is to do with f4 and somehow breaking on the kingside - to try and queen the h pawn!

There is thrilling stuff going on behind the scenes here!

Chris Whittington

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Jul 16, 2018, 6:28:36 AM7/16/18
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it is a draw, but Leela has a little problem here, she thinks she is +0.75 or something, which means that, rather than accept a draw by repetition, she'll tend to play something else - that might be the blunder.

difficult to see and AB program with 40 ply or so endgame lookahead blundering here

Chris Whittington

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Jul 16, 2018, 6:32:20 AM7/16/18
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whereas, in this position, Komodo does not have much in the way of positional guidance and is really dependent on lookahead not positional. Leela the opposite.

Tryfon Gavriel

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Jul 16, 2018, 6:36:55 AM7/16/18
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Do they have a normal 50 move draw rule or has it been extended for this competition to something higher like 75 or 100 ?

Also what hardware is Komodo running on? I have noticed this Wiki page, and Komodo is the reigning champion last two years:

Chris Whittington

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Jul 16, 2018, 7:17:14 AM7/16/18
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I assume 50 move rule. chess programs are coded for that count.

last pawn move was #52, so not far to go now

Chris Whittington

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Jul 16, 2018, 7:19:06 AM7/16/18
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101 h4 and Leela resets the 50 move counter

Galaga

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Jul 16, 2018, 7:32:12 AM7/16/18
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Enqwert

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Jul 16, 2018, 7:35:28 AM7/16/18
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Are they allowed table base? , this is tb draw. If not white has some chance to win.

M

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Jul 16, 2018, 7:39:22 AM7/16/18
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Looks like Leela has lost. What has happened? Timeout?

Chris Whittington

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Jul 16, 2018, 7:41:04 AM7/16/18
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Komodo will have EGTBs presumably. Leela has no EGTB but the neural network eval in this P on R-file endgame will act as a perfectly good EGTB. So, consider it a draw, both sides have enough chess "knowledge" at this stage of the game

daneao....@gmail.com

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Jul 16, 2018, 7:42:18 AM7/16/18
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it seems Leela lost due to lack of time... too bad.

Chris Whittington

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Jul 16, 2018, 7:45:07 AM7/16/18
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Weird. Time loss for Leela? Oh well, Karma strikes again. Leela should not have been entered into the evil tournament. Can't say I didn't warn them.

Hasan ÇALIŞIR

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Jul 16, 2018, 7:47:39 AM7/16/18
to daneao....@gmail.com, LCZero
Not too bad..Idiotic..What the hell is going on?

16 Tem 2018 Pts 14:42 tarihinde <daneao....@gmail.com> şunu yazdı:
it seems Leela lost due to lack of time... too bad.

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M

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Jul 16, 2018, 7:49:46 AM7/16/18
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Cant follow your last implication. I'd say it looks like there is some timing problem, maybe related to the extra delay of the human operator. That should be easily fixable though.

Hartmut Hering

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Jul 16, 2018, 8:01:46 AM7/16/18
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Would not have happened, if the development team had integrated the tablebase functionality before starting at such an event...

Martin Renneke

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Jul 16, 2018, 8:10:49 AM7/16/18
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The second round has started: Leela vs. booot. 

you might enter via: https://icga.org/?page_id=2469

click at "vs" and select board 4. 

graci...@gmail.com

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Jul 16, 2018, 8:19:54 AM7/16/18
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Can't the result be simply changed by the arbiter as TB draw? This is an engine's tournament why the hell human errors are a factor to the tournament?!

And kinda bad sport for komodo's part if it didn't even accepted draw on an obvious position, feels like a desperate move to keep their program on top.

Hartmut Hering

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Jul 16, 2018, 8:30:12 AM7/16/18
to LCZero
Well... it is not fair what the komodo-team was doing there. But it is understandable. Becoming "World-Champion" means to earn money with their program. And the customers only see. "Komodo is champion". They don't see how he became champion at last... You cannot expect fair play under those conditions...
Message has been deleted

Jesse Jordache

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Jul 16, 2018, 9:42:47 AM7/16/18
to LCZero
Any reason you don't just assume you weren't part of the conversation?  You can ask things to be explained to you, and you can be rude, but if you do them at the same time you won't get any help.

On Wednesday, July 11, 2018 at 5:46:31 PM UTC-4, Ron Langeveld wrote:
Sorry Jesse, but is there any coherent thought coming up soon? I don't have the faintest clue what you trying to say here. I hope it doesn't refer to one of your other posts. It's hard to keep track on a train of thought via this forum.

On Wednesday, 11 July 2018 23:16:40 UTC+2, Jesse Jordache wrote:
I think a lot of.. not to use the word "tantrum", but a lot of "who entered Leela?  Whooooo did it?  Let me tell you why this is a bad idea.  And here's the same reason again.  The devs need to consider because they're going to lose a ton of credibility.  Well I guess no one here cares about credibility" etc, although at the end the general concept of "open source and its consequences: 101" were brought up.

On Wednesday, July 11, 2018 at 4:35:41 PM UTC-4, Dietrich Kappe wrote:
No big discussion. A third party with a ton of gpu offered to do it and it was “pax vobiscum” from there. We’ll see how it goes.

Albert Silver

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Jul 16, 2018, 9:50:20 AM7/16/18
to LCZero
Yes, it is Komodo's fault that Leela and the operator lost on time.

Enqwert

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Jul 16, 2018, 9:57:51 AM7/16/18
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The operator could sac the rook for the pawn to earn an immediate draw in the first game. Is it allowed?

Albert Silver

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Jul 16, 2018, 9:59:23 AM7/16/18
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No, the operator must execute the moves chosen by the engine. He is an intermediary, but this is not a Centaur game.

georgi stoilov

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Jul 16, 2018, 11:13:20 AM7/16/18
to LCZero
Which version is used of leela n what hardware?
Which version is used for komodo and what hardware? Is it monte karlo komodo?
Did leela lost on time really?
Someone answer please, yhank you.

georgi stoilov

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Jul 16, 2018, 11:31:52 AM7/16/18
to LCZero
Leelas hardware is 8xV100 wuut

Usman Shahid

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Jul 16, 2018, 1:41:05 PM7/16/18