Interface: plain text -> LaTeX?

[Frank Bennett]

For flexibility and ease of use, you might consider treating LaTeX as a back-end to a plain text authoring system such as pandoc or reStructuredText. Plain text formats are more accessible to newcomer refugees from WYSIWYG tools, and can be used with a much wider range of editing platforms.

    http://johnmacfarlane.net/pandoc/
    http://docutils.sourceforge.net/rst.html

As a worked example, I recently published a book that was prepared in this way.

    http://citationstylist.org/2013/05/26/mlz-book-citations-out-of-the-box-now-available/

The text was written in reStructuredText, with correctly Bluebooked citations generated from shorthand keys through an extended version of the Citation Style Language (CSL) used by pandoc, Zotero, Mendeley and other projects. The code for LaTeX output and citation support was hacked together to get the text out the door, but it does show that this processing chain can be made to work.

Plain text markup for academic and legal drafting has been getting a lot of attention lately. A couple of interesting recent discussions are:

      https://github.com/compleatang/legal-markdown/issues
      http://blog.martinfenner.org/

Looking forward to developments!

Frank

[Joseph Mornin]

Hi Frank,

Thanks for the links. I think you're hitting a key question: is it
better to write docs in pure LaTeX, or is it better to write in a
simpler markup language and then convert with Pandoc?

By "better" I mean (1) more beginner-friendly and (2) less cluttered and
(3) more efficient to write.

For simple docs, like legal memos, I think you're right: LaTeX may be
overkill, and it might make sense to favor Markdown or reST.

But what about a more complicated doc, like an amicus brief? See, for
instance, the awesome brief for Weev filed by security researchers
(written in LaTeX by Brendan O'Connor, who just joined this list):

- Source: https://github.com/ussjoin/weevamicus
- PDF:
https://github.com/ussjoin/weevamicus/releases/download/v1.0/Auernheimer.Amicus.Brief.pdf

There's a lot in there that might be lost in a conversion to LaTeX (like
the table of authorities, for instance). What do you think?

Cheers,
Joe

> --
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>

[Frank Bennett]

On Friday, July 12, 2013 3:06:20 AM UTC+9, Joseph Mornin wrote:

Hi Frank,

Thanks for the links. I think you're hitting a key question: is it
better to write docs in pure LaTeX, or is it better to write in a
simpler markup language and then convert with Pandoc?

By "better" I mean (1) more beginner-friendly and (2) less cluttered and
(3) more efficient to write.

For simple docs, like legal memos, I think you're right: LaTeX may be
overkill, and it might make sense to favor Markdown or reST. 

But what about a more complicated doc, like an amicus brief? See, for
instance, the awesome brief for Weev filed by security researchers
(written in LaTeX by Brendan O'Connor, who just joined this list):

- Source: https://github.com/ussjoin/weevamicus
- PDF:
https://github.com/ussjoin/weevamicus/releases/download/v1.0/Auernheimer.Amicus.Brief.pdf

There's a lot in there that might be lost in a conversion to LaTeX (like
the table of authorities, for instance). What do you think?

A ToA is basically a classified bibliography, and can be generated by the citeproc-js CSL processor based on the items referenced in the text. The processor's bibliography output function has a filter interface for the purpose (which hasn't yet been used by other projects as far as I know -- it was introduced with legal tables of authorities in mind).

The book announcement linked above has a link to a PDF of the text, feel free to take a look. The Appendices contain quite a bit of complex formatting, all generated from plain text and citation keys. The same source is used to produce the proofsheets listed here: http://citationstylist.org/proofsheets/
 
That's not to say that plain text is always preferable for write-up: but the choice is there.

[Brendan O'Connor]

My main concern would be that a lot of the things that need to happen
(e.g., references between parts of a document, or as Joe notes, ToS
and ToA, which are just another type of reference) are difficult
(impossible?) to do in Markdown---or when they're not, they're
arguably no easier than LaTeX.

I love Markdown, but I'm not sure it can handle this kind of thing---
it was designed for lightweight formatting, not camera-ready proofs.

---BFO

[Frank Bennett]

On Friday, July 12, 2013 6:40:46 AM UTC+9, Brendan O'Connor wrote:

My main concern would be that a lot of the things that need to happen
(e.g., references between parts of a document, or as Joe notes, ToS
and ToA, which are just another type of reference) are difficult
(impossible?) to do in Markdown---or when they're not, they're
arguably no easier than LaTeX.

I love Markdown, but I'm not sure it can handle this kind of thing---
it was designed for lightweight formatting, not camera-ready proofs.

Sure. I'm not really putting a dog in the design discussion (so to speak), just pointing out possibilities.

I agree that Markdown is not intended for this kind of writing; my preference would be reStructuredText, for its consistent formatting grammar, more expressive syntax, and extensibility.

For citations generally, you don't want to use plain-text markup of the rendered text at all, because the inline markup syntax (italics, bold, etc.) of all of the plain-text systems is too fragile and too limited to cope. In the scripting logic for LaTeX output from reST with citation support, we generate the citation in HTML, then map the structure to the internal XML representation used by the reST processor and splice it into the tree at the appropriate location. This completely bypasses reST markup for the visual markup of citations.

As an example, a citation in the source might look like this:

    :xcite:`[*See* @Posnerx1986]`

This might be rendered (depending on context, and with small-caps that don't show here) as:

    Richard A. Posner, Goodbye to the Bluebook, 53 U. CHI. L. REV. 1343, 1343–44 (1986)

Or as:

    See Posner, Goodbye to the Bluebook, supra note 20.

Or as:

    See Posner, supra note 20.

Or as:

    Id.     

The CSL-m markup language can handle parallel citations, parentheticals, the five-footnote rule, citations for foreign jurisdiction. Things will crop up that it can't yet handle, but the basics are in there.

Frank

[Frank Bennett]

On Friday, July 12, 2013 7:47:16 AM UTC+9, Frank Bennett wrote:

On Friday, July 12, 2013 6:40:46 AM UTC+9, Brendan O'Connor wrote:

My main concern would be that a lot of the things that need to happen
(e.g., references between parts of a document, or as Joe notes, ToS
and ToA, which are just another type of reference) are difficult
(impossible?) to do in Markdown---or when they're not, they're
arguably no easier than LaTeX.

I love Markdown, but I'm not sure it can handle this kind of thing---
it was designed for lightweight formatting, not camera-ready proofs.

Sure. I'm not really putting a dog in the design discussion (so to speak), just pointing out possibilities.

I agree that Markdown is not intended for this kind of writing; my preference would be reStructuredText, for its consistent formatting grammar, more expressive syntax, and extensibility.

For citations generally, you don't want to use plain-text markup of the rendered text at all, because the inline markup syntax (italics, bold, etc.) of all of the plain-text systems is too fragile and too limited to cope. In the scripting logic for LaTeX output from reST with citation support, we generate the citation in HTML, then map the structure to the internal XML representation used by the reST processor and splice it into the tree at the appropriate location. This completely bypasses reST markup for the visual markup of citations.

As an example, a citation in the source might look like this:

    :xcite:`[*See* @Posnerx1986]`

This might be rendered (depending on context, and with small-caps that don't show here) as:

    Richard A. Posner, Goodbye to the Bluebook, 53 U. CHI. L. REV. 1343, 1343–44 (1986)

(oops: there is a typo in my transcription here. the pinpoint should not be there for this example)
 

[A Feldman]

Hello group, thanks for starting this. I use Latex in my practice. My vote would be to make it XeLaTeX. I started off using LyX, but abandoned it as being just non standard partially incompatible form of LaTeX. There were things I wanted to do that cannot be done in LyX but due to the incredible variety, and long standing base of packages, were possible only using Latex. Now I have stared using Xetex, not only for the ability to use almost any system wide installed font, but for the excellent search and replace package xesearch, but I write in XeLateX which retains almost all LaTeX compatibility. I would be happy as a clam to have a comprehensive New York State and Federal legal citations and captioning package. Also there are many excellent interfaces To LaTeX, I currently use TeXstudio, which has excellent XeTeX support, and would be reluctant to switch.

Excellent logo. An idea to play around with might be to transform the T in LaTeX to a gavel and the X to scales of justice.

[Frank Bennett]

On Friday, July 12, 2013 10:27:11 PM UTC+9, A Feldman wrote:

Hello group, thanks for starting this. I use Latex in my practice. My vote would be to make it XeLaTeX. I started off using LyX, but abandoned it as being just non standard partially incompatible form of LaTeX. There were things I wanted to do that cannot be done in LyX but due to the incredible variety, and long standing base of packages, were possible only using Latex. Now I have stared using Xetex, not only for the ability to use almost any system wide installed font, but for the excellent search and replace package xesearch, but I write in XeLateX which retains almost all LaTeX compatibility. I would be happy as a clam to have a comprehensive New York State and Federal legal citations and captioning package. Also there are many excellent interfaces To LaTeX, I currently use TeXstudio, which has excellent XeTeX support, and would be reluctant to switch.

I worked on legal styles in LaTeX+BibTeX once upon a time:

    http://www.tug.org/TUGboat/tb14-3/tb40bennett.pdf
    http://www.tug.org/TUGboat/tb17-1/tb50benn.pdf

Today there is Biblatex, which is apparently easier to work with. But for complex legal styles, adapting a CSL engine to run against LaTeX *.aux output using the existing styles at http://citationstyles.org would probably make more sense. Either way, it would take a lot of work. Tying CSL into a plain text authoring toolchain would be shorter development path.
 

[Joseph Mornin]

Frank, do you know if there are any beginner-friendly guides on using
CSL? I haven't been able find much.

> <http://johnmacfarlane.net/pandoc/>
> http://docutils.sourceforge.net/rst.html

> <http://docutils.sourceforge.net/rst.html>
>
> As a worked example, I recently published a book that was
> prepared in this way.
>
>
> http://citationstylist.org/2013/05/26/mlz-book-citations-out-of-the-box-now-available/
> <http://citationstylist.org/2013/05/26/mlz-book-citations-out-of-the-box-now-available/>
>
> The text was written in reStructuredText, with correctly
> Bluebooked citations generated from shorthand keys through an
> extended version of the Citation Style Language (CSL) used by
> pandoc, Zotero, Mendeley and other projects. The code for LaTeX
> output and citation support was hacked together to get the text
> out the door, but it does show that this processing chain can be
> made to work.
>
> Plain text markup for academic and legal drafting has been
> getting a lot of attention lately. A couple of interesting
> recent discussions are:
>
> https://github.com/compleatang/legal-markdown/issues
> <https://github.com/compleatang/legal-markdown/issues>
> http://blog.martinfenner.org/
>
> Looking forward to developments!
>
> Frank
>

[Frank Bennett]

On Saturday, July 13, 2013 9:00:51 AM UTC+9, Joseph Mornin wrote:

Frank, do you know if there are any beginner-friendly guides on using
CSL? I haven't been able find much.

The specification gives the final word on the official version of the language:

    http://citationstyles.org/downloads/specification.html

A step-by-step guide to style editing is here:

    https://www.zotero.org/support/dev/citation_styles/style_editing_step-by-step

The Visual Editor is helpful for getting a feel for how the structures defined in the specification work in practice:

    http://editor.citationstyles.org/about/

(Unfortunately, the Visual Editor can't handle the legal styles offered at CitationStylist (http://citationstylist.org), because they use an extended version of the language.)

Hope it helps!
Frank

[Joseph Mornin]

Thanks!

> <http://www.tug.org/TUGboat/tb14-3/tb40bennett.pdf>
> > http://www.tug.org/TUGboat/tb17-1/tb50benn.pdf

> > an email to latex-for-lawy...@googlegroups.com <javascript:>.

> > To post to this group, send email to latex-fo...@googlegroups.com

> <javascript:>.

> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out

> <https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out>.

[Joseph Mornin]

I like this idea. As far as I can tell, the LaTeX and XeLaTeX have
identical syntax, apart from a few font loading commands. Is that right?
If so, most of the template and guides from this project should apply to
both, with minimal fiddling.

On 7/12/13 6:09 AM, A Feldman wrote:
> My vote would be to make it XeLaTeX. I started off using LyX, but abandoned it as being just non standard partially incompatible form of LaTeX. There were things I wanted to do that cannot be done in LyX but due to the incredible variety, and long standing base of packages, were possible only using Latex. Now I have stared using Xetex, not only for the ability to use almost any system wide installed font, but for the excellent Puritan make search and replace package xesearch, but I write in XeLateX which retains almost all LaTeX compatibility.

[A Feldman]

That is correct.

--
LaTeX for Lawyers: http://www.latexforlawyers.org/
---

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[A Feldman]

Frank -

When we talk about using markdown to deal with citation, could we/are we envisioning something that would be used within LaTeX by somehow including the file(s) using LaTeX's ability to include files? 

[Jonathan Browalski]

Hi everyone,

 

A while back (may have been in a different thread), someone mentioned a package called "LawTeX" that someone had put together.  I had some spare time at work today, and I looked it up.  The package is available on sourceforge, along with some example briefs that look pretty good.  It has a package called "bluebook.sty," which creates commands like "citecase."  I'm probably not technically skilled enough to give a good summary of what it does, so I'll just attach the package with this e-mail!  Let me know what you all think, and if this is a viable route to examine.  Preliminarily, I think this could mesh really well with vim snippets or a similar editor.  On the other hand, it might simply require too many commands and too much tweaking.

 

Best,

Jonathan

[Joseph Mornin]

Wow, the citation formatting looks great to me. What do others think?

> http://citationstyles.org/__downloads/specification.html

> <http://citationstyles.org/downloads/specification.html>
>
> A step-by-step guide to style editing is here:
>
>

> https://www.zotero.org/__support/dev/citation_styles/__style_editing_step-by-step

> <https://www.zotero.org/support/dev/citation_styles/style_editing_step-by-step>
>
> The Visual Editor is helpful for getting a feel for how the
> structures defined in the specification work in practice:
>

> http://editor.citationstyles.__org/about/

> > http://www.tug.org/TUGboat/__tb14-3/tb40bennett.pdf
> <http://www.tug.org/TUGboat/tb14-3/tb40bennett.pdf>
> > http://www.tug.org/TUGboat/__tb17-1/tb50benn.pdf

> > http://johnmacfarlane.net/__pandoc/
> <http://johnmacfarlane.net/pandoc/>
> > <http://johnmacfarlane.net/__pandoc/
> <http://johnmacfarlane.net/pandoc/>>
> > http://docutils.sourceforge.__net/rst.html
> <http://docutils.sourceforge.net/rst.html>
> > <http://docutils.sourceforge.__net/rst.html

> <http://docutils.sourceforge.net/rst.html>>
> >
> > As a worked example, I recently published a book
> that was
> > prepared in this way.
> >
> >
> >

> http://citationstylist.org/__2013/05/26/mlz-book-citations-__out-of-the-box-now-available/
> <http://citationstylist.org/2013/05/26/mlz-book-citations-out-of-the-box-now-available/>
>
> >
> <http://citationstylist.org/__2013/05/26/mlz-book-citations-__out-of-the-box-now-available/

> <http://citationstylist.org/2013/05/26/mlz-book-citations-out-of-the-box-now-available/>>
>
> >
> > The text was written in reStructuredText, with
> correctly
> > Bluebooked citations generated from shorthand keys
> through an
> > extended version of the Citation Style Language
> (CSL) used by
> > pandoc, Zotero, Mendeley and other projects. The
> code for LaTeX
> > output and citation support was hacked together to
> get the text
> > out the door, but it does show that this
> processing chain can be
> > made to work.
> >
> > Plain text markup for academic and legal drafting
> has been
> > getting a lot of attention lately. A couple of
> interesting
> > recent discussions are:
> >
> >

> https://github.com/__compleatang/legal-markdown/__issues
> <https://github.com/compleatang/legal-markdown/issues>
> >
> <https://github.com/__compleatang/legal-markdown/__issues

> <https://github.com/compleatang/legal-markdown/issues>>
> > http://blog.martinfenner.org/
> >
> > Looking forward to developments!
> >
> > Frank
> >
> > --

> > LaTeX for Lawyers: http://www.latexforlawyers.__org/

> <http://www.latexforlawyers.org/>
> > ---
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to
> the Google
> > Groups "LaTeX for Lawyers" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails
> from it, send

> > an email to latex-for-lawy...@__googlegroups.com.

> > To post to this group, send email to
> latex-fo...@googlegroups.com.
> > For more options, visit

> https://groups.google.com/__groups/opt_out
> <https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out>.

> >
> >
>
> --
> LaTeX for Lawyers: http://www.latexforlawyers.org/
> ---
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
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> <mailto:latex-fo...@googlegroups.com>.

[A Feldman]

I'm trying to get the LawTeX package to work, but I'm stuck on generating my table of authorities.  The error I'm getting is Index style file ../lawcitations.ist not found.  I'm running Ubuntu 12.04 with backported tex live 2012, and I tried to put the lawcitations.ist file where texlive could find it and then ran texhash.   If anyone has any idea of how to make this work I'd appreciate the help.  Thanks.

[A Feldman]

Well I found out the problem and fixed it, and am now fooling around with trying to get it to work.

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[Joseph Mornin]

Any luck? I haven't had a chance to play with it yet, but I'm curious to
hear if you've found it useful.

> http://citationstyles.org/____downloads/specification.html
> <http://citationstyles.org/__downloads/specification.html>

> >
> <http://citationstyles.org/__downloads/specification.html
> <http://citationstyles.org/downloads/specification.html>>
> >
> > A step-by-step guide to style editing is here:
> >
> >
> >

> https://www.zotero.org/____support/dev/citation_styles/____style_editing_step-by-step
> <https://www.zotero.org/__support/dev/citation_styles/__style_editing_step-by-step>

>
> >
> <https://www.zotero.org/__support/dev/citation_styles/__style_editing_step-by-step
> <https://www.zotero.org/support/dev/citation_styles/style_editing_step-by-step>>
>
> >
> > The Visual Editor is helpful for getting a feel for
> how the
> > structures defined in the specification work in practice:
> >

> > http://editor.citationstyles.____org/about/

> http://www.tug.org/TUGboat/____tb14-3/tb40bennett.pdf
> <http://www.tug.org/TUGboat/__tb14-3/tb40bennett.pdf>
> >
> <http://www.tug.org/TUGboat/__tb14-3/tb40bennett.pdf
> <http://www.tug.org/TUGboat/tb14-3/tb40bennett.pdf>>
> > >
> http://www.tug.org/TUGboat/____tb17-1/tb50benn.pdf
> <http://www.tug.org/TUGboat/__tb17-1/tb50benn.pdf>

> http://johnmacfarlane.net/____pandoc/
> <http://johnmacfarlane.net/__pandoc/>
> > <http://johnmacfarlane.net/__pandoc/
> <http://johnmacfarlane.net/pandoc/>>
> > > <http://johnmacfarlane.net/____pandoc/
> <http://johnmacfarlane.net/__pandoc/>
> > <http://johnmacfarlane.net/__pandoc/
> <http://johnmacfarlane.net/pandoc/>>>
> > >
> http://docutils.sourceforge.____net/rst.html
> > <http://docutils.sourceforge.__net/rst.html
> <http://docutils.sourceforge.net/rst.html>>
> > >
> <http://docutils.sourceforge.____net/rst.html

> > <http://docutils.sourceforge.__net/rst.html
> <http://docutils.sourceforge.net/rst.html>>>
> > >
> > > As a worked example, I recently
> published a book
> > that was
> > > prepared in this way.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >

> http://citationstylist.org/____2013/05/26/mlz-book-citations-____out-of-the-box-now-__available/
> <http://citationstylist.org/__2013/05/26/mlz-book-citations-__out-of-the-box-now-available/>
>
> >
> <http://citationstylist.org/__2013/05/26/mlz-book-citations-__out-of-the-box-now-available/
> <http://citationstylist.org/2013/05/26/mlz-book-citations-out-of-the-box-now-available/>>
>
> >
> > >
> >
> <http://citationstylist.org/____2013/05/26/mlz-book-citations-____out-of-the-box-now-__available/
> <http://citationstylist.org/__2013/05/26/mlz-book-citations-__out-of-the-box-now-available/>
>
> >
> <http://citationstylist.org/__2013/05/26/mlz-book-citations-__out-of-the-box-now-available/
> <http://citationstylist.org/2013/05/26/mlz-book-citations-out-of-the-box-now-available/>>__>

> https://github.com/____compleatang/legal-markdown/____issues
> <https://github.com/__compleatang/legal-markdown/__issues>
> >
> <https://github.com/__compleatang/legal-markdown/__issues
> <https://github.com/compleatang/legal-markdown/issues>>
> > >
> >
> <https://github.com/____compleatang/legal-markdown/____issues
> <https://github.com/__compleatang/legal-markdown/__issues>

> >
> <https://github.com/__compleatang/legal-markdown/__issues
> <https://github.com/compleatang/legal-markdown/issues>>>
> > > http://blog.martinfenner.org/
> > >
> > > Looking forward to developments!
> > >
> > > Frank
> > >
> > > --
> > > LaTeX for Lawyers:

> http://www.latexforlawyers.____org/

> > <http://www.latexforlawyers.__org/
> <http://www.latexforlawyers.org/>>
> > > ---
> > > You received this message because you are
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> > > Groups "LaTeX for Lawyers" group.
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> > from it, send
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> > > For more options, visit

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> > <https://groups.google.com/__groups/opt_out
> <https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out>>.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > --

> > LaTeX for Lawyers: http://www.latexforlawyers.__org/
> <http://www.latexforlawyers.org/>
> > ---
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to
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> > To post to this group, send email to

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> <https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out>.
> >
> >
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> >
> > --

> > LaTeX for Lawyers: http://www.latexforlawyers.__org/
> <http://www.latexforlawyers.org/>
> > ---
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[A Feldman]

I got it to make a table of authorities of sorts, but the page numbers did not match up to the TOA.  It may have been my ignorance of how to use it, or other issues with formatting.  The one thing I am disappointed with is that is apparently does not work with XeLaTeX, only pdflatex, which may be just myself not being familiar enough with the makeindex etc.  I'm excited about it though, as it has real potential, especially for the appellate work that I do.

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[Joseph Mornin]

Is your code in a repository? I'd be happy to take a look.

You might also check out the Table of Authorities in this amicus brief:
https://github.com/ussjoin/weevamicus

On 7/31/13 4:51 PM, A Feldman wrote:
> I got it to make a table of authorities of sorts, but the page numbers
> did not match up to the TOA. It may have been my ignorance of how to
> use it, or other issues with formatting. The one thing I am
> disappointed with is that is apparently does not work with XeLaTeX, only

> pdflatex, which may be jusSt myself not being familiar enough with the

> makeindex etc. I'm excited about it though, as it has real potential,
> especially for the appellate work that I do.
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 7:26 PM, Joseph Mornin <jos...@mornin.org
> <mailto:jos...@mornin.org>> wrote:
>
> Any luck? I haven't had a chance to play with it yet, but I'm curious to
> hear if you've found it useful.
>
> On 7/28/13 6:26 PM, A Feldman wrote:
> > Well I found out the problem and fixed it, and am now fooling around
> > with trying to get it to work.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 8:14 PM, A Feldman
> <aaronfe...@gmail.com <mailto:aaronfe...@gmail.com>

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[A Feldman]

Thanks, I'll put my next attempt into repository.  I tried using the LawTex author's posttro-motion.tex  and cutting it down, got frustrated and ended up chucking it.  My next attempt will be very simple, instead of trying to take his and cut it down, I'll try building it from scratch.  That I will post into repository and let you have a look at it.  

Aaron

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[A Feldman]

I posted here:

https://github.com/AaronFeldman/LawTeX-Code

Some thoughts, 

1. The package chokes if you don't use periods A.D.2d not AD2d.
2. It chokes if you don't use regular parens (2nd Dept 1938) not [2nd Dept 1938].
3. It also will choke on multiple reporters or slip opinion citations.

At least with me on Ubuntu 12.04 backported texlive 2012 I have to compile the document on the command line 4 times as below:

1. pdflatex
2. makeindex -s lawcitations.ist -r Case.idx
   
3. makeindex -s lawcitations.ist -r Statute.idx
   
4. pdflatex

On Wednesday, July 10, 2013 7:01:51 PM UTC-4, Frank Bennett wrote:

[A Feldman]

Frank, have you looked at the LawTeX package? http://sourceforge.net/projects/lawtex/  I don't know enough about the programming side, but it seems to produce bluebook style citations.  I've done some primitive tests of the package, and I like what it does.  I only wish that I could use XeLaTeX to compile rather than pdfLaTeX and that I could change some formatting options for case citations without having the document fail to compile.  

On Wednesday, July 10, 2013 7:01:51 PM UTC-4, Frank Bennett wrote:

[Frank Bennett]

On Friday, August 2, 2013 11:44:18 PM UTC+9, A Feldman wrote:

Frank, have you looked at the LawTeX package? http://sourceforge.net/projects/lawtex/  I don't know enough about the programming side, but it seems to produce bluebook style citations.  I've done some primitive tests of the package, and I like what it does.  I only wish that I could use XeLaTeX to compile rather than pdfLaTeX and that I could change some formatting options for case citations without having the document fail to compile.  

I hadn't, but I've just now grabbed the archive and taken a look at the documentation and the code. It looks to be well-structured, and someone who wanted to push the concept further could certainly work with the code.

It looks like Christopher DeCoro wrote the package while in the law program at Yale, before moving on to private practice (you could check with him -- as the package was updated just a couple of months ago, it may still be under active development):

    http://www.linkedin.com/pub/christopher-decoro/37/89a/314

Mileage may vary, but there are a few factors that might make the road forward for this package a little challenging. Its attraction is that it performs dynamic formatting according to the Bluebook backreference rules, and generates tables of authorities from references keyed into the document. But while most of the backreferencing logic is shared with other note referencing styles (such as Chicago, OSCOLA, and 95 other styles registered in the CSL repository), this package is bound tightly two flavours of the Bluebook. A more general approach would be more attractive to many programmers looking to pitch in, since his or her work would then reach a wider audience.

The coding of full cites into the text of the document (with \newcase, etc) is intuitively straightforward, and has the advantage of avoiding reliance on an external list or database (such as a *.bib file), but it also misses opportunities for reuse of code and data. To tie a reference manager (Zotero, Mendeley, EndNote, Jabref etc) to the package in its current form, the reference manager bridge would need to generate a correctly formatted citation (for drag-and-drop, say), with supplementary markup for LawTeX. From a programming standpoint, if the reference manager's citation engine has the power do that, it might as well be used to generate the citations directly.

Edge cases are the bane of bibliographic tools, and at some point any formatting tool runs out of gas and needs some manual touch-up. A worry with this package is that, since it seems to go direct to DVI (for the main text at least), the formatting logic really has to be perfect. I can think of a few situations that might throw gotchas in the final output that could prove awkward:

Parallel cites
    You mentioned these, and there is a note in the source saying they have not been implemented. http://sourceforge.net/p/lawtex/code/ci/default/tree/bluebook.sty

Pinpoint joins
    The join for pinpoints can vary according to jurisdiction, and according to field content (there is an example of this in the Bluebook, at Rule 15.3).

Multimedia content
    The Bluebook's rules for citing audio and video content are a mess anyway, but it's not clear how well URLs and the like would fit into the LawTeX macro scheme.

That said, I haven't done any testing or dug into the code at all. The parallel cites issue seems to be the most critical limitation, but Christopher might have ideas on how to tackle it.


Separately, I must say that seeing this software release raised a smile. The Bluebook Board of Editors have been anything but encouraging toward my own work on Multilingual Zotero and the MLZ American Law style, to the point of refusing me access to http://legalbluebook.com when I inquired whether automating the style in free software and selling a book on the subject would come within their Terms of Use for the site. It's been a weird state of affairs, an apparent misunderstanding that I hope can be resolved fairly soon:

    https://law.resource.org/pub/us/code/blue/

I had no idea, at the time I was having my difficult correspondence with the Board of Editors, that a member of the student body at Yale was actively working to implement the style in open code, under the Bluebook moniker, while representing the school in an international moot competition:

    http://www.law.yale.edu/studentlife/15321.htm

So thanks for pointing this out: I'll breath a little bit easier now. :-)

Frank

[A Feldman]

Frank, I read all the letters to and from Harvard. How interesting. In New York, bluebook style is incorporated into the " Tan Book" http://www.courts.state.ny.us/reporter/new_styman.htm by reference for general style.

From my view, providing open source software that can produce blue book style is not infringement.  Not because blue book is law, but because although human readable, a style package is an implementation meant to be used to produce blue book style papers and not published or even usable as a bluebook reference.  So, two concepts apply, the fair use law enacted in 1978, http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html  and also by the idea–expression divide which "... limits the scope of copyright protection by differentiating an idea from the expression or manifestation of that idea." http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idea-expression_divide  That's why I think the LawTeX package or any other software implementation of bluebook style does not violate Bluebook's copyright.

[A Feldman]

Also, I  think that there is a non-exclusive grant to open source by implication on the part of Harvard in their failure to object to and their own part in production of LawTeX under an open source license by one of their students.

[Frank Bennett]

On Sat, Aug 3, 2013 at 2:49 PM, A Feldman <aaronfe...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Also, I think that there is a non-exclusive grant to open source by
> implication on the part of Harvard in their failure to object to and their
> own part in production of LawTeX under an open source license by one of
> their students.

That thought had certainly crossed my mind. :-)