Rabbit Laser USA Machines

[Justin Krull]

Considering that the same laser components (laser tube, power supply and chiller) are used in the Lasersaur design, why isn't Lasersaur just writing better open-source software and controller for a machine like this?

http://www.rabbitlaserusa.com/laser_RL1290.asp

It looks like it would have been about the same cost in the end for us, once we add a stand and exhaust to our Lasersaur.

Maybe this is a dumb question, or there's something I'm not seeing here. The machine has a Z axis motor for moving the work table and comes complete with exhaust, air assist and other accessories. It is completely manufactured in China, even though it does get tested in the USA.

I agree that the optics (mirrors and focusing lens) probably aren't the same quality, but everything else looks pretty much in line.

I'm asking this because we got asked this question by another group we recommended the Lasersaur to after we showed them ours and they did some research. They could be up and running in a week to meet the existing demand from their customers for laser cutting going this direction. Obviously, they would be using an inferior controller for their machine, but it looks like they would be saving money in opportunity cost for their time spent building a Lasersaur, rather than designing and manufacturing on their existing CNC router.

I'm not trying to attack the project in any way. We love our Lasersaur and we're at the optics alignment stage (almost ready to cut). I'm just trying to impartially ask the question for my own curiosity and to try to help this other group out with their decision (stop them from making a poor one, if it is a bad decision).

Regards,

Justin

[Andy Dingley]

On Aug 13, 10:35 pm, Justin Krull <JTbik...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Considering that the same laser components (laser tube, power supply and
> chiller) are used in the Lasersaur design, why isn't Lasersaur just writing
> better open-source software and controller for a machine like this?
>
> http://www.rabbitlaserusa.com/laser_RL1290.asp

It's hard to know what the spec is for one of those "red & whites".
The Chinese factory that builds them builds to a couple of different
specs, according to customer. There's a firm in the UK (HJC in
Halifax) already offering better-spec builds with a local service
organisation.

I've considered one of these machines for a while. They're a good
value deal for what they promise - at least the 4' x 3' machines are.
However, as you imply, the Chinese control software is as horrible as
ever, especially for engraving. Now I have the money for a good
machine, I have the money for a cheap machine, but what I don't have
is the money for one of these brand new, yet still with a Chinese DC
tube in it. For this budget, I can get a much better machine S/H.

[David Armstrong]

their is a opensource replacement for the controller for the chinese machines ,  see  laoslaser.org

 

but building a machine from scratch is so much more fun , it all depends if the people wishing to build are capable , have time , and if the machine fits the bill in cutting area

needed and cutting requirements . build your own is not just based on cost alone , and is not always cheaper or best result .

[Stefan Hechenberger]

I will try to answer this as short as possible because it quickly leads
to personal preferences.

The Lasersaur project is just partly about creating a competitive laser
cutter. In this regard we are already doing pretty well and will further
improve as we finalize the beta phase. The Lasersaur is smaller,
lighter, more hackable, cross-platform, open, easier to repair if
something breaks, and has a better user community. Most importantly
somebody who builds the system can easily maintain it.

Beyond this comparison as a product we are also aiming to setup up the
project for awesome things to happen. The people we have on the project
know a lot more about laser cutters than the typical turn-key system
user. This is the case because many attracted come in with more
knowledge but also gain more by building/using a Lasersaur. We want a
place where laser cutter knowledge is plentiful and members feel
empowered to mod and innovate. This way when somebody wants to build a
bigger system they can. Or when solid state lasers become viable they
can upgrade. Or when somebody wants to to add a computer vision system,
or write their own GUI, or any kind of possible mods it's pleasant to do.

I also feel like pointing out that Lasersaur is an open hardware
project. While this is a concept not fully defined yet it's pretty clear
it shares a lot of the awesomeness of open source software. Part of the
fun we have with the project is thinking about open hardware and where
it might take us, as individuals, communities, and culture in general.
You don't get this fuzzy warm feeling from a commodity product.




--
Stefan Hechenberger
studio: Nortd Labs - labs.nortd.com
resident: F.A.T. Lab - fffff.at
project: Lasersaur - labs.nortd.com/lasersaur

[Steve Baker]

I agree - there is value in knowing where every nut and bolt is - what
each wire does and how to hack around the software without breaking
something or doing something dangerous. There are HUGE advantages to
having the entire development team and dozens of people with practical
experience with Lasersaur sitting on this mailing list offering advice and
fixing/improving software.

I'm also skeptical that the off-the-shelf alternative is as cheap as
Lasersaur if you compare like-for-like and once you include shipping and
their nebulous "service" charges.

However, there are certainly people who'd rather buy a finished machine
than spend a week building one from scratch - so now this project has some
competition in the market - and that's a good thing. Competition makes us
focus more on cost - and that makes us stronger.

The principal advantage that the chinese manufacturer has over US laser
cutter makers like Epilog is low labor costs. But our labor costs are
zero. He has to buy parts from the same kinds of sources that we do - but
he has shipping costs that we don't. If you build your own Lasersaur, you
can maintain and repair it yourself - they have to keep staff there to
deal with breakdowns, and there will be more breakdowns if their users
don't know how to do adequate maintenance.

If some part of your chinese laser cutter breaks a few years from now -
will you be able to buy a replacement part? In the case of Lasersaur, for
most parts you can pick up the McMaster's catalog and find what you need -
and for the rest, have a friend laser-cut you a replacement.

Then there is continuous improvement from the community. Since this
project is vigorous and growing, we will undoubtedly see upgrades and
small incremental improvements for years to come. If you buy an
off-the-shelf system, then what you have on the day you buy it is all
you'll ever have.

-- Steve

-- Steve

[Ward Elder]

I talked to an Epilog dealer regarding the Chines Lasers. At one time
he sold them in the US. To keep the machine running he had to order two
or three so that he had spare parts. Every machine that he received was
different. Looks like no two are identical. The manuals were terrible
and support of no help. I finally gave up and moved over to Epilog.

Thank you,


Ward M. Elder
ElderSoft
42 Appleton St.
Winnipeg, MB
R2G1K5
(204) 791-7754 (Cell)

wa...@eldersoft.ca

[Dexter Andrada]

Good exchange. 

Very helpful for newbies exploring laser cutting. I for one would like to jump into laser cutters but basically don't know where to start. As i learn more from the group it helps get things in the right perspective on my road to finally making one.

Keep on cutting

--
Regards

Dexter Andrada
Manila, Philippines
Email - dexter...@gmail.com
Skype ID - dexterandrada
Yahoo ID - dexterandrada
Mobile - +639178426671
Tel - +632 7721939

[Andy Dingley]

On Aug 15, 6:02 am, Dexter Andrada <dexterandr...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Very helpful for newbies exploring laser cutting. I for one would like to
> jump into laser cutters but basically don't know where to start.

Start with a top quality machine and an expert operator on hand. i.e.
find someone who's already doing serious cutting, and scrounge your
way into spending some time working with them, on their machine.
There's no substitute for a bit of hands-on.

IMHE, the Chinese lasers are capable of cutting stuff. Eventually.
However there's no way I'd want to run a business on one. The amount
of downtime, machine repair, machine tuning and general fiddling is
ridiculous in comparison to the amount of productive cut time you
achieve. Also the variability in power output means that machine
settings aren't stable. Not only might you have to re-adjust for the
same cut on different days, but this can also get so bad as to screw
up a cut job and waste material sometimes.

[jet]

On 2012-08-15 12:41, Andy Dingley wrote:
> Start with a top quality machine and an expert operator on hand. i.e.
> find someone who's already doing serious cutting, and scrounge your
> way into spending some time working with them, on their machine.
> There's no substitute for a bit of hands-on.

Which is very much how we've done machining in the US since the late
19th century. It wasn't just professional machines, it was 2-4 years of
being an apprentice to know how to really run a lathe, mill, scraper, etc.

There are some huge learning curves here, especially with people who
don't know what a MSDS is or why they should care.

--
J. Eric Townsend, IDSA
design <http://www.allartburns.org>
hacking <http://www.flatline.net>
fabrication <watch this space>

[Steve Baker]

The question that intrigues me is *WHY* there are all of these problems?

I presume they using laser tubes from the same chinese manufacturer as
Lasersaur. So what goes wrong? Motors fail? Electronics? Connectors?
Wiring? Mechanical parts bend or break? Screws work loose? What exactly
happens to cause all of these issues?

Why is the power output so variable?

It seems like it would be useful to understand what it is that makes these
machines so bad.

-- Steve

Andy Dingley wrote:

> IMHE, the Chinese lasers are capable of cutting stuff. Eventually.
> However there's no way I'd want to run a business on one. The amount
> of downtime, machine repair, machine tuning and general fiddling is
> ridiculous in comparison to the amount of productive cut time you
> achieve. Also the variability in power output means that machine
> settings aren't stable. Not only might you have to re-adjust for the
> same cut on different days, but this can also get so bad as to screw
> up a cut job and waste material sometimes.
>

-- Steve

[David Armstrong]

the main problem their built to make a profit
for any laser you need rigidity in the build , hence why you need to keep
adjusting as parts change with flex and heat of course .

any small changes even made by it's own generated heat will move the mirrors
, which is why it's a good reason to go with cooling the mirrors and air
across the front . to minimise movement .

if you take the time and care to set up the mirrors and lens correctly and
concentric all the way then this will minimise errors , but you cant get
away from flex and movement with laser equipment.

a sturdy base is a must

Dave

-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Baker
Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2012 1:07 PM
To: lase...@googlegroups.com