Hacker / Maker Scouts discussion

[Daniel Johnson]

I'd like to get momentum on Hacker / Maker scouts at LA Makerspace, want to hear from anyone interested about your experience with other / expectations of this program.

Here's a bit of background on me: I have two kids, an 11 year old daughter, and an 8 year old son.  I want my kids to be immersed in a group of people who love to make things, to experience the whole process of making, conception to completion, to learn how to collaborate with others, and really to foster a culture of young people who value making.  For myself, I was a Boy Scout as a teenager... it wasn't a great fit.  The best of what boy scouts was for me was learning to collaborate with others on projects.  I think this program should be as much for the adults as the kids, as my interest in LA Makerspace in general is as much for myself as my kids.  I am happiest making artful things that are technologically challenging (currently this means tinkering with Arduino/XBee/Lillypad light and sound projects), but my tendency is to be interested in too many things at once.  So having others around to keep momentum on a particular project going is really helpful.  I think one purpose of the program we create should be to expose people to a range of ideas and experiences, but the program should also encourage and foster levels of expertise in a specific area of interest.

Some things to consider:

* Are we inventing our own program or joining an existing movement such as DIY (http://diy.org/) or Hacker Scouts (http://hacker-scouts.org/) or other?  Or using an existing program as a template?

* What badging mechanism will we use?  Again, existing or scratch?  Personally, I'd like to see us do something compatible with Mozilla Open Badges (http://openbadges.org/en-US/)

* What are we trying to do?  What is the "mission"?

* What is the scope of our program?  diy.org is trying to cover equivalent breadth as BSA, such as outdoor survival / camping.  Are we going there?  I'm not opposed to camping per se, but I don't see it as an essential component of the program, and there are certain hacking activities that involve being out of doors.

* Is the scouts thing a separate meeting/program that kids are joining explicitly?  Or by virtue of being an LA Makerspace member, a thing that happens is that you earn badges and get certified based on completion/participation in events.

I have my own inclinations on these things, but I'm going to wait to answer until others come back with expectations as I don't want to control the direction as much as facilitate.

Please share your thoughts!

Daniel

Also, on an administrative note, I happen to pass by LA Mart on my way home from work almost every weekday.  If anyone happens to be available to chat about this in person, a time that works pretty consistently for me is late afternoon/early evening weekdays.

[Michelle Leonhart]

Daniel,

Thanks for the email!  I'm super excited to see that others are excited about this, and I totally agree with you on wanting a cool social atmosphere for kids and adults to work together and see the process of making from start to finish.

I was thinking about this the other day, and I feel that following along with (or partnering with?) DIY.org would be an awesome start.  They have so much ground covered already.  One could argue that we have more than enough talent in the space to create our own system, but I think riffing off of something existing will save us a ton of administrative effort, and allow us to focus more energy on the fun making part.

That all being said... we REALLY need someone to be the lead and point person on this project.  Do you think that someone could be you?

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[Dana Cordes]

Daniel,

I have an 8 year old son, as well.  And, we were planning on putting him into Boy Scouts when he turns 10, but I think his inclinations would be much better suited to a more DIY/maker/builder style program.  So, I'm interested in this topic.

I don't know much about hacker scouts, but we've done quite a few DIY.org badges.  While their badge and social sharing features are great, as is the breadth of topics that they cover, they are not deep in instruction and are very open ended.  I may have missed some content, but I looked and could find nothing describing in any detail why the badges were.  I think this may be just the point, to get kids to experiment without the fear of too concrete a path.

I really like DIY.org, and it could probably as some sort of guide, or at least the reward part of a program that we piece together.  But I think it needs more meat to it.  More concrete projects.  Maybe they combined with Instructables, or something.

I'm way out in Simi Valley, so it's a haul to get down LA Mart for us.  I'm interested in this program, but it'd be a challenge for us to make it down on a regular basis.

-Dana Cordes

On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 12:39 PM, Daniel Johnson <johnson...@gmail.com> wrote:

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Dana Cordes

[Daniel Johnson]

Michelle, yes!  I am happy to be the lead/point person.

Dana, awesome!  I'd love to hear more about the DIY projects you've done with your son.  I agree with both you and Michelle that diy.org is a great framework and allows us to get started on the "fun".  

I'm taking the liberty to copy/paste Ken's comment (below) on the original G+ post that started this, as I loved his comments on competitive vs collaborative making.  Also, Ken and I had the privilege to attend Doris Yee's awesome workshop on badges.  Her approach to badges was so different- it was an individualized- we sat together and designed badges (on paper) for our individual goals and accomplishments (past, present, and future).  And then we proceeded to make digital versions of our badges.  So even the process got to be about "badge making", which was very cool.  We don't _have to_ incorporate this kind of thing in what we do as it's likely that the things that people would choose as goals are covered by diy.org.  It was just a very different and, of itself, had a maker feel to it.

Here's Ken:

I'll help ya, Dan.  Let me know!

(I want to get my pallet disassembly badge! )

I'm very intrigued by the unique multi-generational feature of LA Makerspace's maker scout program, and the challenge of defining projects/badges that could engage and reward toddlers through codgers.

 I started toying with the idea of design elements or icons to go along with more challenging badges that reward mastery of a technique,  the use of a tool, a craft, or a principle.   These elements/icons would be simplified and stylized to be laser etched, routed, carved, embroidered, woven,  Marquetted (is that the word?) etc.  You would earn the digital badge, to be displayed in whatever badge collection and display system our maker scouts choose, but you would also earn permission to use the iconic or design element version of the badge in the design or decoration of your projects.  As the scouts gain more mastery and more badges, they will also have more of these elements to incorporate into their projects.   I think that would go well with the idea that we are maker scouts, not just scouts.

An issue to consider is cooperative vs. competitive.  For example, a time honored Cub Scout activity that is a natural for maker-scouts is the Pinewood Derby (that name is owned by the BSA so we'd have to call it something else).  The basic kits of parts are inexpensive and freely available.  There is a lot available on the physics, the engineering and the construction principles  of these gravity driven racers. I'm sure we could hack together a track for the cars.  However, in the BSA it is a competition and the fastest cars win.  A big part of the motivation to "hack the kit" is to get the winning edge.   With a little thought we could restructure it into a more cooperative activity, I'm sure, if that is the way we choose to go with the group.  But that it something to think about as we're launching the group.

-Daniel

[Michelle Leonhart]

I'm at my dayjob so I have to keep responses short and sweet while my code compiles...

-I love that you guys are excited about this.  Please feel free to take the reigns, and we'll support you.  Please coordinate meeting schedules with me, and I'll make sure everything on the backend runs smoothly.

-Our pinewood derby should totally be DIY RF-controlled racecars.  Arduinos and Xbees?  Crashspace is working on an openSource DIY robotics kit right now... maybe they'd be interested in helping with this?

[Daniel Johnson]

Me too...gotta get back to work for now

XBee Derbee: yes! :)

[Ken Y]

I'll help ya, Dan.  Let me know!

(I want to get my pallet disassembly badge! )

My answers to your direct questions (and you'll see the "lets be makers" vs. "lets be joiners" theme):

 Are we inventing our own program or joining ...:

Roll our own, emphatically.  We're makers!  We can borrow (steal?) from them, for sure, but I think that our activities and reward system should reflect our unique community and its wide ranging talents.  We're not just part of "the maker movement", we're LA makers. Hollywood!  JPL! Disneyland! Randy's Donuts!  We're in downtown!  Next to the giant chair! 

Seriously, I'm very intrigued by the unique multi-generational feature of LA Makerspace's maker scout program, and I think we're up to the challenge of defining projects/badges that could engage and reward toddlers through codgers.

****

What badging mechanism will we use?  

Roll our own, again.  Mozilla practices age discrimination against kids.  Also we would be at the mercy of a third party, who could pull or modify the service at any time.  We might look at "compatibility" but we should not depend on them.

See also my note re. design elements and icons.

****

What are we trying to do?  What is the "mission"?

I see this as fourfold.  

First to define a larger community and unique identity for our makers.  The groups within our community are based around interest (Intergalactic Hitchikers) or equipment (3D Printer).    LA Maker Scouts would embrace all Los Angeles Makers!  Again, I think its important that we find our own, LA style.  

Second is to create the program to guide makers of all ages in their exploration and development as hackers, makers and craftspeople.   By creating requirements for badges we are creating a roadmap for this exploration and mastery.  It will allow people to make effective use of the open shop times as they work on their projects.  Also, it will guide LA Makerspace as to which materials to have available to sell to members working on projects.  

Third is to create a scout framework in which parents (grandparents, big sisters/brothers) and kids can participate together in a supportive environment with other parents/kids.   With badges and ceremonies and silly songs.  The YMCA guides program was founded specifically for this purpose.  So many people are uncomfortable with the traditional scouting programs for many reasons.  Our program would have no baggage.  We're makers.  That's it. (Though, I suppose, some would find that, in itself, subversive). 

Fourth is to have fun!  Making is fun!  Hacking is fun!  Living in LA is fun!  Silly scout-type ceremonies are fun!  Nitrogen ice cream is fun!  Monster make-up is fun!  Making movies is fun!  Halloween lanterns are fun!  We'll have fun fun fun until daddy takes our T-bird away!

****

What is the scope of our program?  

 I think that the bulk of the program should revolve around the LA Makerspace and activities we can do there.  But field trips (like the Intergalactic Hitchhiker trips to JPL or SpaceX) should be part of the program.  

Outdoor DIY activities could be part of camping trips or just outdoor field trips.   Campfire cooking with DIY equipment used to be mandatory for boy scouts, but is no longer.  It's a lot of fun for all ages.  

Fionn hinted that he wanted to "build a forge" by designing the badge for it during the badge design workshop.  I see that as more of an outdoor event as well.

The skateboards will be ridden outside.  If we do rocketry, kites  or sailboats we'll have to move outdoors to try them out.

****

Is the scouts thing a separate meeting/program that kids are joining explicitly?  Or by virtue of being an LA Makerspace member, a thing that happens is that you earn badges and get certified based on completion/participation in events.

Again, I see it for all ages, not just kids.   I think that if you join Makerspace, the scouting part of the Makerspace program is available to you.  You can choose to take advantage of the events, the guided activities, and the reward system, or not.  But I don't see an explicit signup, and I think the general LA Makerspace rule of participation (under 13 needs parent, over 13 doesn't) is about right for the scouts as well.

   ---==>Ken

[Dana Cordes]

I like the idea of mastery iconography on badges.  One neat thing that the boy scouts do is progressive awards for nights camping.  I think it's important for smart kids to not only be able to explore where they wish, but also to get accolades for persistence and hard work in a single area.  Smart kids are advantaged in that they can understand and implement on different topics easily.  They often don't learn how to work hard, since they don't have to.  

The badge system should be purposed to encourage what we want to reinforce in the kids.  The program and it's breadth should be to motivate and involve them.

So, all that being said, maybe the "mastery" iconography is more of a "hours spent" thing.  Or, perhaps, even better, bring some game theory into the fold with "levels" with skill/accomplishment thresholds for leveling up.  The level mechanic could be based on a skill tree mechanic, where you have to hit Level 3 Electronics to start Level 1 Robotics.  

I like that.

I also really like Ken's four point missions.  Great stuff.

I think some level of competition is excellent.  It gives kids challenge and accomplishment.  But, team building is really important as well.  One of the most inspirational things that I saw at Maker Fair last year was the Battlestar Galactica flight simulator built by a group of teenagers.  It was their idea, and they did it almost all themselves.  Seeing what they could do with just their friends to challenge and inspire them was awesome.

-Dana

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Dana Cordes

[Daniel Johnson]

Long workday and I'm kinda spent, but just wanted to quickly reply and 2nd the kudos to Ken's 4 points.  Loved that!  Also, if anyone deserves a pallet disassembly badge, it's you, Ken!  That's on our "Take Stuff Apart" mastery track, which works it's way up to disassembling dicey explosives :)

Dana, re: mastery, totally agree.  I like that makers can choose either a breadth or depth of achievement.  Game theory is exactly where my mind went also.  Really want to see if we can flesh out a system that works this way.

I'm with you both on rolling our own.  To Michelle's point, I don't see any harm in taking DIYs list of categories and badges, though, as a starting point that we can restructure to suit our own program.

Maybe next steps are 

-Start a shared (google?) doc where we can draft out & brainstorm some ideas for projects, badges, categories.  maybe i'll just dump diy's in there wholesale and we can tear it apart

-Set up a short in-person or g+ hangout to do some more of this kind of bouncing ideas around in realtime.  Unfortunately I'm away this weekend, so I could do weekdays or weekend of 3/9 & 3/10 maybe during open project times.

-Daniel

[Ken Yapkowitz]

I work in the old Helms Bakery building on Venice Blvd. and also pass through downtown on the way home -- usually between 7 and 8 pm.

Is the space open at night for meetings?  

As it turns out, the weekend of the 9th/10th son is on a concert tour and wife is working emergency, so I was planning on going to the LA Makerspace both days. 

The  board has a Wiki they use.  I wonder if we could have a page there to develop ideas?  

BtW are any of you taking Mitch Resnick's Learning Creative Learning MOOC?  It's chock-full of ideas regarding learning activities that spark creativity in kids.  There are 24000 people enrolled, so it is impossible to tell who you know is also there.  If not enrolled, you might find the last session interesting for coming up with projects and activities for a scout group. Here's a link:  Learning Creative Learning - Session 3 - Making & Constructionism.  The Hi/Lo tech idea is rich with possibilities.  While enrollment is closed, all of the course materials are freely available.   

   ---==>Ken

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/la-makerspace/-/3Mwoi5j6FTEJ.

[Tara Tiger Brown]

Created a Wiki page: http://lamakerspace.wikispaces.com/Hacker+Scouts

If you don't have access to the LAM Wiki please request it or let us know and we'll add you.

-Tara

[Tara Tiger Brown]

To answer Ken, yes, we can be open at night for meetings, if you can find a regular meetup time then it will be much easier for us to coordinate having someone there to open and close.

[Tara Tiger Brown]

Just wanted to make a comment about DIY.org.

I think it is a great resource for skill building activities and love the badges, but it is geared to the 6-10 year old audience, it's a closed system and the profiles aren't very robust to comply with COPPA. 

Adults may want to use public profiles, etc. Mozilla Open Badges doesn't officially allow the under 13 crowd to use it, but we can also use badges from across systems including issuing our own badges.

The question is, do we use multiple systems depending on the age of the scout or try and use one.

[Dana Cordes]

I had a few minutes so I took a stab at a rough set of skill grouping, and the skills underneath them.  I grouped the individual skills under 8 broad skill categories.  If we keep the skill titles themselves more generic, then we can apply a task based threshold for "leveling" up each skill.  So, Soldering L1 might be safety and understanding the things needed to solder.  And L5 might be able to solder complex circuits on a project board.

I made the list for discussion and to build from.  It was informed by the DIY list, but is not a copy, and is built to supply more depth.  

http://lamakerspace.wikispaces.com/Skill+Trees

-Dana

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Dana Cordes

[Ken Y]

DIY.org seems to be about individual DIY skill building activities and not hacking.  It is both more and less than I think we need.

The Lego example I like to use to make the distinction:

The DIY kid follows the instructions and builds the model pictured on the box.

The Maker kid does this then throws the blocks into the mixed bin and proceeds to create new models from the mixed up parts.

The Hacker kid does all of this then cuts, melts, burns, bends, paints, carves, glues the bricks to get the ones she imagines, adds additional materials of all kinds, overdrives the motors to get more speed or power, mixes in other building sets, etc. etc.

On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 3:17 PM, Tara Tiger Brown <tara...@gmail.com> wrote:

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/la-makerspace/-/w8r9EieuyRsJ.

[Dana Cordes]

That's a really interesting distinction.  

Maybe our badges are skill based.  But, as you we discussing additional overlay iconography, maybe we have an icon for hacking and an icon for making, and maybe even knowing.  So, knowing how to solder, making something with solder, or hacking the hell out of something using soldering skill.  

Something like that would give us flexibility in how we can accurately display the breadth of activities/accomplishment while keeping them well grouped.

-Dana

[Ken Y]

T

ara, after re-reading I think I missed the point of your DIY.org vs Open Badges post.  

I don't think the DIY.org structure or badging system is appropriate because of our multi-generational and broader, Hacker Scout, vs DIY Scout scope.  

Open Badges would work except:

1) They bar members under 13.

2) They are a third party so we would be subject to possibly changing T&C, they may pull or modify the service at any time, and they may charge for the service at any time, LA Makerspace may have to give up the rights to the design, etc.

I think we should design a base badge compatible with Open Badges formats, so those who want to use that to show off their badges can upload them and do so.  Members could also upload and display the badges they earned on their websites, put them in their email stationary, etc.  

But for permanence we should also maintain a system for members of all ages to collect and show their LA Makerspace badges.  That could be controlled by the parent partner LA Makerspace requires for under 13 members, and then naturally transferred to the 13+ member.  I believe that would make us COPPA compliant.  Certainly, if login is required it would be.  Schools routinely make all sorts of personal information about kids(names, addresses, email, class membership) available to the school community at large through a password-protected site.  

[Kent Nichols]

Baden Powell Scouts might also be an option:

http://bpsa-us.org/

-K

Kent Nichols

askaninja.com

[Ken Y]

I posted over in the community a better description (I hope) of what I meant when I suggested the design elements/icons.  They were not overlays, but yet another version of certain badges that could be generally used to build designs.  Almost a "secret" code within the designs on other projects that would signal to other Hacker Scouts the achievements of the maker.  I see folks being motivated to be able to acquire a richer palette from which to construct their designs.

I know Daniel and Tara attended two of the workshops that I also attended with Fionn:  the Halloween lantern workshop and, apropos to this discussion, the Badge design workshop.  I don't know any of the rest of you by sight, so I'm not sure if you were there. 

Perhaps we could try to break down those workshops in terms of what badges, or progress towards badges, they would represent?

Or if you didn't attend those workshops, maybe you could do the exercise for other LA Makerspace activities you attended?

We could then look at other past and upcoming activities and see where they would fit in.

That may give us a starting point for the first group of badges to design and offer, and for the initial tree branches and progress tracks to flesh out.

[Daniel Johnson]

Dana, that initial set of skills/grouping is awesome.  Thanks for that starting point.  I was going to just put the DIY list on the wiki, but this is better.

Ken, I get what you're saying about stylized versions of the badges and I think that's a great idea.  And I saw you were asking if we could have a workshop with someone who does multimedia iconography/logo design.  That might really be useful.

I agree a good next exercise is to take the existing things we've done at LA Makerspace and try to fit them, sort of bottom up, into a system and see how it comes out.  DIY does a thing where they give you a list of 10 "challenges".  You can do any 3 to get the badge, and then it's over.  So that seems rather shallow.  

Take mastery of 3D printing, the activities/challenges might be:

* find a design on thingiverse, have someone certified assist you in printing it

* be certified to use the 3D printer with guidance

* find and customize an existing design, print it

* design a 3d object from scratch

* be certified to use the 3D printer without guidance, incl. competence in configuration and calibration

* understand components of the 3D printer, and specifics of how software interacts with hardware components

* design a functional object...

I'd probably have a ton more of these after this weekend's workshops, and maybe they'd be completely different.  Also, some people might not bother with the track of understanding the hardware, but want to get deep into complex designs.  Anyway, I think I'll transfer this list of activities over to the wiki and we can also work on trying to build badges from the bottom up, taking the specific things we've already done at LAM as starting points.

[Tara Tiger Brown]

Good Morning,

Just noticed that the folks who started first talking about Hacker Scouts are now supporting guilds. They have the Maker Scouts for 4-8 year olds and Hacker Scouts for 8+. They are focused on kids and no mention of adults. It looks like Jean from The Exploratory is leading the Maker Scouts, she is really awesome with young kids so it's nice we have a good mentor for that age range.

http://hacker-scouts.org

We can put us down as interested so we at least have it as an option.  Not sure what they plan to do about badging but my guess is DIY.org.

-Tara

[Daniel Johnson]

Yes, I've looked at hacker-scouts.org.  It wasn't clear to me who they are or what their facilities are like, so I'm glad to hear you know Jean.  Would you please introduce us?

[Daniel Johnson]

Also, just found this:

https://plus.google.com/106719344424275259364/posts/C3UYAAqaXqb

What do you all think about this skill tree vs diy?  Also, I love that their tagline is: An Open Source Scouting Experience.  I've already contacted Garrat, who created this skill tree, to get a sense of how much we could leverage/remix/contribute.

I'm disappointed that DIY is definitely not open source (I read their legalese carefully), because they've got some pretty well developed ideas about skill building and we are not authorized to create a derivative work.  Whatever we do I hope we can keep ours open/reusable/remixable.

Ken & anyone else willing to join on a weeknight, how about we get together for an hour sometime mid-week to chat in person and sketch some ideas.  Again, bringing up the idea of having a designer help us, I liked Doris Yee's approach a lot.  Wonder if we shouldn't do a few sessions ourselves to sketch out a few badges and ideas, and then have her back for another round.  What do you think?

[Dana Cordes]

That's a really nice division.  It's highly focused on making, which is neat.  I like the EE, ME, Software breakdown because it closely matches the skillsets needed to make stuff (in hobby and business).  

Arts and Textiles are interesting, though I'd argue that just because a topic is deep, doesn't mean it should be it's own category, and therefor Textiles should be under Arts.

I also think having an Outdoormanship, and a Sciences category would be excellent for explorations into oceanography, astronomy, etc and the automation that we can leverage there.  For instance, a project to make a model RC glass bottom boat to see what kind of critters live in the bottom of a pond.  

I've found with my son that, while build stuff is fun and educational and gratifying, having a goal for the project gives a unmatched reward and celebration at the end.  We built his "CreeperBot" over the course of a couple weeks, and when we brought it to the robot party, he could not have been more proud, or more happy about his accomplishment.  But, I think that's aside the point here.  =)

I did struggle a bit about the tree concept as I was thinking through my list from yesterday.  I don't think we want to gate experimentation.  For instance, that tree shows game design after python.  If a kid is interested in games, we should leverage and get them into it as quickly as possible.  Scratch is a great example of that.  

It's a shame about DIY not being more open.  It would have such greater possibilities if it did.

I'd be love to remote in to a Hangout on a weeknight, but I'm afraid that I can't make it through downtown on a week night.

-Dana

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Dana Cordes

[Tara Tiger Brown]

Daniel I just made you a moderator on the G+ Community so you can create an event there for a G+ Hangout this week.

-Tara

[Daniel Johnson]

Awesome.. thanks Tara!

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/la-makerspace/-/MjT-ciD7G0EJ.

[Daniel Johnson]

Jean Kaneko of Maker Scouts (http://www.makerscouts.org/author/admin/) happens to be in downtown tomorrow at 1PM, and has offered to drop by LA Makerspace for a chat.  If anyone is interested / available, feel free to drop by and join us.  Also if you're interested I'll fire up the G+ hangout.  Short notice, I know... we'll still do a separate hangout for badge discussion, just wanted to offer since it came up.

[Ken Y]

Will try to make it.  

It looks like they're starting up a LA group.  Do they have "Hacker Scouts" trademarked or can we use it?

Perhaps this would be a good choice for those who want the structured program geared specifically for kids.  

That would free us to have a more hackerly program.

On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 11:11 AM, Daniel Johnson <johnson...@gmail.com> wrote:

Jean Kaneko of Maker Scouts (http://www.makerscouts.org/author/admin/) happens to be in downtown tomorrow at 1PM, and has offered to drop by LA Makerspace for a chat.  If anyone is interested / available, feel free to drop by and join us.  Also if you're interested I'll fire up the G+ hangout.  Short notice, I know... we'll still do a separate hangout for badge discussion, just wanted to offer since it came up.

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[Tara Tiger Brown]

Not sure about the trademark...I like the idea of being part of a growing movement but I also don't want to be too tied to how they think it should work. I also am curious if adults will feel included and want to participate if we use the term "Scouts."

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[Ken Y]

What is clear from this skill tree is that it grew from the interests and resources in the community that generated it.  It looks hacked and hackable!

The choices are interesting and may not fit our organization. But I think that's the point!  

What is clear is that even with just three of us actively participating, we have very different ideas of what our kids should get out of the experience.  

I don't look at it as a replacement for Boy Scouts for Fionn.  He's a Webelos II cub scout and is eagerly anticipating joining his older friends in Troop 1 next year.  He's earned a slew of the skills-based belt loops and pins, but keeps them in the drawer and isn't about showing them off. The fun was doing what it took to earn them.  The program provided some simple guidelines which we could turn into activities that provided the fun and learning experience.  So many of the requirements involve family outings or fun projects around the house, and that's what's fun for me.

But when I look at why Fionn keeps wanting to be in scouting, it is clear that getting together with other kids to do cool fun stuff is what it's about for him. 

Troop 1 is known for its outdoors program.  In fact there is a neighboring troop that recruits from Pack 1 by saying they are "less hard core".  The subtext is "this is the troop for those who want scouting on their college resume, but don't really want to do much".  The only thing I worry about for Fionn's college is that there will be the means for him to attend if he wants to. 

I was serious with the four mission points, as they reflect what I want to get out of the program for Fionn, and what I want to get out of it for myself.  I was hoping that these ideas would fill the needs of the community as well.

We get Make magazine, Popular Science, Popular Mechanics, have the Dangerous <fill in the blank> books.  He's thinking about college choice in terms of the quality of pranking that goes on.  We can tinker and build at home all we want.  While we don't have a laser cutter or 3D printer, we have a workshop and a reasonable collection of tools.  

The LA Makerspace, and I hope the eventual form of the LA Hacker Scout experience, is more about his introduction to and acceptance into a multi generational hacker community.  The groups and workshops will expose him to more ideas and skills than I can myself, and the generous instructors provide him with exposure and introduction to other cool adult makers, hackers, thinkers, perhaps mentors.  The badges will provide a mechanism for him to set personal goals and to mark progress.  (I also see skill level badging as a way of communicating the skill level for workshops or projects as 'we recommend that the attendees have at least the experience represeted by the Basic Soldering badge').   But to me point 4 is very important.  It must be fun, and the real reward is not the badge, or getting to show off the gizmo you made, but the joy of hacking and hanging out with a bunch of hackers.

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[Daniel Johnson]

Jean has to prepare for a conference over the weekend, needs to postpone until next week.  Will keep you posted on an updated meeting date.

[Daniel Johnson]

Re: the skill tree - yes exactly - it looks like it is based around the particular interests/resources of that community.  I think we've come to a similar conclusion, here and in personal discussion, that the best way to get going is to grow out from where we are.  It's good to hear where you're coming from about boy scouts.  In a way I'm glad we don't have to try to be all of that.

Also I saw, and really appreciated, the crystallization of the filmmaker skills.  Exactly what it needed.  Thanks for that.

I've spent enough time now looking over other systems to know what is and is not available... enough to confirm what we already expected, that we're going to need to roll our own badge graphics.  That's ok.  I think it fits.  One of my lessons learned from Doris Yee's badge class was that I should have been using vector graphics (.svg files - Inkscape is a great open source / cross platform tool for creating these).  Also there are LOTS of creative commons licensed SVG files out there.  Here's a badge template I made using a CC licensed rope border.

http://lamakerspace.wikispaces.com/file/view/badge_template.svg/411446024/badge_template.svg

This image is directly editable in Inkscape.  It scales to any size, and is composed of drawn objects, so you can group/ungroup things as you compose.

Also, here is just a quick scrape of all calendar items past and upcoming:

http://lamakerspace.wikispaces.com/Hacker-Scouts-Past-LAM-Events

I am going to just start working my way through this list to make badge graphics.  Nothing final.  As always, y'all are very welcome to come edit or completely rework anything I've put out there.  Let's just get some badges happening for the things we have going on now: woodworking, videoblogging, scratch programming, puppet making/puppeteering, tabletop filmmaking, robots, pallet furniture building!

There are probably attributes of the design that could start to have meaning: border style, background color, etc.  We discussed sticking with round badges for simplicity of making buttons or standard badge shapes - going with this unless someone has a different idea.  Otherwise not going to worry too much about attributes now as these are very easy to change.  But would love to hear ideas.  Ken's idea about stamps and achievement is a cool idea.  Not sure how we work something like that in, but I like it.  

I'll follow up with Jean about rescheduling the maker scouts discussion and let you know as soon as I hear something.

Also, I'll be at the open public night tomorrow night.

-Daniel

[Ken]

Has anyone given thought to colors?  The various scouts seem to have colors associated with them for uniforms, etc.  Does LA Makerspace have an official color scheme?  Should we adopt the colors used in the LA City flag ( green for olive trees, gold for oranges, red for grapes) or California's colors (blue for the sea and sky, gold for gold)?  We could go to the woodsy/sunsety reds, browns and greens and dusty blues of the Arts and crafts movement for colors.   

Re. badge system:

Should the badge display/download site be part of the LA Makerspace site, a subdomain of the LA Makerspace site or its own domain?  We can create the system so it "issues" badges on other public systems (like Open Badges, but not restricted to that) at the request of the badge owner.  Since the badge system is just a support for the in-person program, we can get around COPPA by 1) keeping it accessible only to members, 2) requiring signed written parental permission slips for kids to be on the system.  3) Keeping no  personal information about the children on the system itself, identifying them only by a handle which they would choose in the live session.  The association between the handle and the individual would be in the organization's records and not be on a public system.

Are we staying with the Hacker Scouts name?  The group with which Jean is associated has a 501c3 called Hacker Scouts, but I don't know if they have a trademark on the name.

I think tacking on additional words, like Los Angeles Hacker Scouts or LA Hacker Scouts, will be enough difference so that we don't have to worry about it down the line.  I've been drawn to Los Hacker Scouts, which we can shorten to Los Hackers if the original Hacker Scouts does decide to get litigious.  

Somos Los Hackers!

[Tara Tiger Brown]

Or LA Makerspace Scouts 

I think we should make a signup form so people who want to be involved can get on the list of updates and when we have our first meetup.

You want me to make a Google Form on the website?

[Ken Yapkowitz]

LA Makerspace Scouts works for me!

Though I like the image of kids with Los Hackers tee shirts on their tricked-out skateboards riding around downtown LA with Leatherman tools on their laser etched belts.

---==>Ken

[Daniel Johnson]

LOL

Hey if it's good enough for Los Lakers, it's good enough for us!

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[Tara Tiger Brown]

Los Hackers is cool. And shorter.

Let's vote at the meeting tonight.

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[Tara Tiger Brown]

Los Hackers it is!

[Tara Tiger Brown]

I'm at the DML Conference and tonight's fair was totally about badges so I reviewed a ton of them.

Related I've been talking a bit with Isaia from DIY.org and the Mozilla Open Badges folks.

DIY is going to be introducing Elders so adults can join but who gets a badge will be determined by the community so we can't issue badges ourselves directly.

Credly is a great system for assigning badges and we can do it in bulk which is great post class.

I'd like to give Credly a try because it allows us to choose who gets a badge.https://credly.com/

On Thursday, March 7, 2013 2:06:22 AM UTC-6, Tara Tiger Brown wrote:

Los Hackers it is!

[Ken Y]

It is still too early to determine which badging systems will win, if any of the current alternatives. I think we should be compatible with them all, but dependent on none of them.  Perhaps it comes from many years in the media business where display and distribution platforms come and go, and success comes with the agility to move assets to the platform du jour.

Los Hackers is like diy.org itself, but with an actual Makerspace attached.  We have that advantage over diy.org that our digital badging system supports a real-world program.  There is no need for anyone but scout leaders to issue badges and manage their display on member's badge pages.  We should encourage under age members to use a unique display name that is not immediately traceable to them for any public display pages.  Without any real personal information on the site, and with editing and updating by responsible adults only and with written permission from , we don't run into any age-related issues.

 The ideal system we want is an open source system that integrates easily with popular web publication platforms, with a simple "add badge a to member b's collection and show it on their page" interface, but that also integrates easily with popular publication platforms like Wordpress or Drupal.  A bulk add would be useful for post-workshop, as Tara mentions. 

The system should support publication of our badges through the APIs of any and all available badging systems, so that members who are also members of other badging platforms can display their badges there and with Los Hackers permission and authority.  Certainly Open Badges and Credly ( which also is restricted to 13+ ).  That way if a badging system goes away, or if a member wants to switch to the latest/greatest one, they will be able to.

If such a system does not exist, Los Hackers may have to create a badge to build such an open source system as a service to the maker scout community.  Perhaps at a Los Hackersthon?

     ---==>Ken

[Ken]

https://github.com/everfi/sash#readme

It's node.js, but it is open source and works with Open Badges.

Of course, they are still a third party, but at least Los Hackers would have the source code and databases if that project goes away.

Credly has an API.

    ---==>Ken

[Tara Tiger Brown]

I'm putting my startup hat on and think that we should pick something and go for it. The community is eager to get going and I'd love to retroactively issue badges in parallel with deciding on how we are going to work on skill building.

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[Daniel Johnson]

One big thing credly has going for it appears to be that their API is more fleshed out, and they already have an actual site for participating.  So if you just want to "go", they're probably it.

We should give them a shot.  It doesn't mean we're tied to them, or that they're even the primary way people get badges.  I'm not worried about it - people can 3d print, laser print, button, display virtually.  I'm more stuck on what achievements get badges and what the badge graphics will be.  Come over to the wiki and brainstorm on what actually deserves a badge.  Put it anywhere and I'll organize it.  

And then lets just get some prototype graphics going.  The sooner we actually have badges that represent an achievement, the sooner we can actually get started.  Take a look at the badge template pages.  I put a couple goofy prototypes there.

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[Daniel Johnson]

One thing about credly: they have this way that you can make a badge right on their site.  But that thing isn't portable at all.  So if we're going to use credly, we should probably always import our own badge images so that they can be reused elsewhere.

[Tara Tiger Brown]

I'm on Credly (https://credly.com/u/tara) and I'm ready to issue badges!

I made a Super Helper badge. Daniel I think we can just save the badges we make from the screen right after we make it.

[Ken Y]

I agree that things should move soon and as simply as possible.  If we were to pick an automated system to go for I'd vote for trying Sash.  

But we don't have to make it even that complicated.  

Here is a "KISS" proposal that could get us started immediately and doesn't require new software, servers, or membership in anything but LA Makerspace:

Daniel's got a list on the Wiki of past and scheduled programs that should result in "attendance" badges.  

We can compile lists of attendees who are also current members and begin a database that associates members with badges.  This can be as simple as a notebook or a spreadsheet, and would form the seed for the database of our own permanent automated system, such as Sash.  

The bulk of the work is designing badges!  But we knew that.

As the badge design files become available we can make the files available as Google docs, or on either the LA Makerspace or Los Hackers servers, and share the links to those members who have earned them. We can use the appropriate copyright license to allow those members with LA Makerspaces' permission to use and replicate the images.  They can display them, print them, engrave them, etch them, embroider them, tattoo them, etc. etc.

After the badges start being distributed we can see which third party badge system compatibility requests come in in from the teen and adult member community in order to prioritize the publication to third party servers.  

I think it is extremely important that we don't require a membership in any third party badging system in order for members of all ages to enjoy displaying (and wearing) the badges.  

      ---==>Ken

[Daniel Johnson]

I got a Super Helper badge :)

Ok cool I didn't see that.

[Tara Tiger Brown]

Do you have a link to Sash? Credly was pretty easy to use and maintaining google docs, etc. seems a little more cumbersome.

[Ken Y]

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/la-makerspace/-/LJzqAyGvW9QJ.

[Ken Y]

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[Ken Y]

I agree, Daniel.

Just getting the badges designed and done is most important.

That's why I'm proposing to just make them available for download, initially.  See my last post.

I don't think your 3d printing prototype is goofy -- I love it.  I also like your earthy palette choice, though I'm going to see how it looks in greyscale.  I was at the space on Sunday and read the Laser Cuttern manual about greyscale etching on the Laser cutter.  It looks really great! 

    ---==>Ken

On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 3:31 PM, Daniel Johnson <johnson...@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm not worried about it - people can 3d print, laser print, button, display virtually.  I'm more stuck on what achievements get badges and what the badge graphics will be.  Come over to the wiki and brainstorm on what actually deserves a badge.  Put it anywhere and I'll organize it.  

 

And then lets just get some prototype graphics going.  The sooner we actually have badges that represent an achievement, the sooner we can actually get started.  Take a look at the badge template pages.  I put a couple goofy prototypes there.

On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 2:06 PM, Tara Tiger Brown <tara...@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm putting my startup hat on and think that we should pick something and go for it. The community is eager to get going and I'd love to retroactively issue badges in parallel with deciding on how we are going to work on skill building.

On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 3:56 PM, Ken <k...@causecast.org> wrote:

https://github.com/everfi/sash#readme

It's node.js, but it is open source and works with Open Badges.

Of course, they are still a third party, but at least Los Hackers would have the source code and databases if that project goes away.

Credly has an API.

    ---==>Ken

On Friday, March 15, 2013 1:42:13 PM UTC-7, Ken wrote:

 The ideal system we want is an open source system that integrates easily with popular web publication platforms, with a simple "add badge a to member b's collection and show it on their page" interface, but that also integrates easily with popular publication platforms like Wordpress or Drupal.  A bulk add would be useful for post-workshop, as Tara mentions. 

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[Ken Y]

Just created a badge with Credly.  Cannot see how to upload anything but an "icon" file to use as a credit.

The FAQ says that pro members can do that, but I can't find info on how to become one.

I'm wondering if you have to use the API for that.

[Ken Y]

Created a badge on Credly but it still has the default name and I can't see how to change it to the badge text name.

On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 4:39 PM, Ken Y <k...@causecast.org> wrote:

[Causecast]

.  

I could not upload a badge to Credly.  They accept icons in a very limited format that could then fit into their standard badge template.

When I created a badge it still had the default name, and I couldn't see how to change it.  I sent it to you and Daniel.

We need to keep the files and variants on a server somewhere.  Right now they are on the Wiki.  Putting them up on Google drive or another server would be as easy as saving them out to a file.

Credly definitely seems like a work in progress.

The Sash open source code is on github.  

       ---==>Ken

[Tara Tiger Brown]

Hi Ken,

I am really digging the ease of Credly so it's a bummer you haven't.

1) They accept the regular formats - png, jpg, gif, etc. 

2) The screen where you upload the image describes the badge (metadata) but doesn't change the banner name, you need to click on the Text icon "A" and change the banner name there.

3) Just issued you a badge

[Daniel Johnson]

Ken has a point about size - the imported icon size is too small.  Do you have a contact for them?  Maybe they could tweak that.  Maybe it needs to be that size to accommodate all border styles.  Otherwise, gotta say I'm also digging it - very straightforward, gives us a way to get going right away.  I see it as just one way we can issue badges.  We should track badge earning separately and maintain our own graphics.  

I see they also have a way to connect your mozilla ID.  Does that mean they're implementing open badges?  Didn't see anything about that.

[Daniel Johnson]

p.s. I already sent email to their support, but if you've been in touch with someone who could get more attention to it, that would be awesome.

[Tara Tiger Brown]

1) Just tweeted them the feedback. If they don't reply the Prez and COO is John Walber. I'll shoot him an email and cc you.

2) Yes, Credly works with Open Badges. Click on the Share icon on your badge and send it to FB, Twitter, LinkedIn and Mozilla Open Badges.

It is now in my Open Badge Backpack: https://backpack.openbadges.org/backpack

And on my Facebook wall: https://www.facebook.com/taralbrown/posts/476824929039169

And I pushed it as an update to LinkedIn but it doesn't show up on my profile

[Tara Tiger Brown]

We just received this info from the Founder of Credly and me and Daniel have a thread with him to discuss the icon size some more.

Tara: Thanks for the Tweet/feedback!! Might you send me an image that appeared too small? Image gets maxed to largest size that fits in all 6 shapes. Uploaded image may have had extra space around it? I'll look into it & see if there are ways to improve. Coming soon: Option to upload your own badge!

[Michelle Turner]

I'm so out of the know that I didn't understand this thread until I just checked out Credly's FAQ page. Now I want a badge for being "Old school tech challenged."

Sent from my iPhone, now powered by the sun: www.momsgoingsolar.com 

[Ken]

¡Somos Los Hackers!

Please join (or rejoin) us at the fourth 2014 planning hangout for Los Hackers, LA's home-grown maker scouts, where all-ages earn badges while learning and making together.

Since our last meetup we've been busy …

• visiting maker locations in the Los Angeles area

• talking to makers with very cool skills they share at those locations

• planning more Los Hackers making activities than you can imagine!

We need hackers who can help…

• plan and run the individual meetings.

• map out the new project and skill badges associated with these activities

• design the new skill and project badges

Let's make it happen!

Let's hang out together next Monday and form some working groups! If you can't make it, just let me know what your interests are and we'll work with your schedule.

Google Hangout, Monday, 24 February, 2014, 7:30 PM.

Click for Google Event