Kurviger App Pro: Navigation bei Rundtouren mit abweichendem Startpunkt funktioniert manchmal nicht

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karstinho

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Jun 3, 2018, 6:38:37 AM6/3/18
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Hallo zusammen,

ich habe schon unterschiedliche Beiträge zum Thema "Ziel erreicht" bei Start der Route gelesen. Alle scheinen jedoch am eigentlichen Problem vorbei zu führen.

Während der Planung mehrerer Harztouren ist mir zufällig ein ähnlich komisches Verhalten aufgefallen, das beim Importieren und Navigationsstart einiger Rundtouren auftaucht: Anscheinend löscht Kurviger bei dem Start der Navigation sämtliche Zwischenpunkte und erstellt eine neue Route direkt zum Ziel. Allerdings tritt das nicht bei allen Rundtouren auf. Bei einigen tritt das aus meiner Sicht korrekte Verhalten auf, dass Kurviger nur den Start der Route an die aktuelle Position verschiebt und den ursprünglichen Startpunkt als 1. Zwischenziel setzt.

(hier mein Wunsch zum Navigationsverhalten: Bei der Start einer Route vom aktuellen Standort sollte der alte Startpunkt gelöscht und direkt zum ursprünligch 1. Zwischenziel navigiert werden --> meistens macht es keinen Sinn, den Startpunkt noch einmal explizit anzufahren. ggf. kann man das auch als Option einstellen --> bei Start vom aktuellen Standort ursprünglichen Startpunkt anfahren (ja/nein))

Ich hab euch einmal zwei geplante Touren angehängt, von denen das Problem bei einer Tour auftritt und bei der anderen nicht. Beide wurden auf Grundlage einer importierten GPX-Datei erstellt, bearbeitet und als .kurviger abgespeichert. Die funktionierende Tour ist "Test 2", die Tour mit dem komischen Verhalten "Test 1"


Ihr müsstet das Verhalten nachvollziehen können, da es anscheinend keine Rolle spielt, wie weit man beim Start der Navigation vom eigentlichen Startpunkt der Tour entfernt ist (in meinem Fall Startpunkt im Harz, aktueller Standort Hamburg). Man kann im Gegenteil sehr schon sehen, dass Kurviger einmal die komplette Tour löscht und eine neue Route mit neuen Zwischenzielen direkt zum Ziel der Tour plant, während bei der anderen Tour aus dem ursprünglichen Startpunkt das neue 1. Zwischenziel wird und der aktuelle Standort zum neuen Startpunkt.. In beiden Fällen spielt es keine Rolle, ob die Touren mit oder ohne aktivierte Option "Routenberechnung von aktueller Position" geladen werden. Wenn die Option abgeschaltet ist, wird erst die Tour geladen, beim Start der Navigation tritt das Verhalten dann auf und man kann auch sehen, wie Kurviger die Zwischenziele löscht. Bei aktivierter Option berechnet Kurviger sofort eine neue Route. Bei der funktionierenden Tour ist es ebenfalls egal, ob die Option aktiviert ist oder ob nach dem Laden der Tour mit der Navigation gestartet wird.

Ein möglicher Workaround bis zur Behebung des Verhaltens scheint zu sein, die "komischen" Touren ohne sofortige Routenberechnung zu laden und dann manuell den Startpunkt der Tour neu beim aktuellen Standort zu setzen

Würde mich freuen, wenn euch meine Beschreibung hilft, das Problem zu lösen. Der Workaround ginge zwar auch, ist aber umständlich - vor allem wenn man zu Beginn nicht weiß, ob die geladene Tour funktionieren würde oder nicht.

viele Grüße
karstinho
Test 1.kurviger
Test 2.kurviger

Manfred Frommel

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Jun 3, 2018, 11:04:44 AM6/3/18
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Hi,

On both tours start point and end point are not exatly at the same position.
You can import them on the wbsite and zoom in to the starting point.

When you are on the start point heading towards waypoint1 then:
- On the working tour (Test2 ) the end point is behind you.
- On the strange tour (Test1) the end point is infront of you.

So on the test1 tour Kurviger might think, that you have just finished your tour

So the solution might be to put the end point slightly behind the start point
Something like  this

Have you tried the new (beta) option "Verwende Orientierung" in tzhe app?

Manfred

karstinho

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Jun 3, 2018, 11:50:06 AM6/3/18
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Hi Manfred,

I did another test with slightly adapted routes. I copied the GPS-coordinates of the starting point and inserted the coordinates into the coordinates of the end point so now both points are exactly at the same position. I used the beta option "Verwende Orientierung" as well.

Both did not effect the behaviour, Test 2.1 is still working, Test 1.1 is not (find both tours enclosed). 

Have you tried to import these routes and started navigation from your current location to see, if you're faced with the same situation?

karstinho
Test 1.1.kurviger
Test 2.1.kurviger

Emux

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Jun 3, 2018, 12:48:37 PM6/3/18
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Hi Karstinho,

Thanks for the examples and the details, they help us analyze the report!

So if load a test 1.x round trip, simulate user location at Hamburg, then rerouting calculates a new route.
It seems keeping only the last 3 waypoints with the destination and enters round trip at its last sections.
Do you mean a result like in Kurviger_1.png ?

Algorithm finds the "closest" route waypoint and continues the routing from user location to the waypoint, skipping the previous ones.
Depending where the user location is compared to actual route geometry, can enter in round trip anywhere from all angles around it.

e.g. if set user location at Erfurt, then the rerouting produces a result like in Kurviger_2.png entering round trip from below section.

Apparently this is not the expected behavior for some users, to "enter" round trip anywhere, they prefer to enter it at its "start"?
We had it that way - i.e. reroute straight at round trip start - some didn't like it and asked to enter at its closest section.

So as you mentioned, probably some option could be introduced to solve all user preferences?

--
Emux
Kurviger_1.png
Kurviger_2.png

Manfred Frommel

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Jun 3, 2018, 2:06:27 PM6/3/18
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Emux, thank you for the explanation.
Now I understand the behavior of Kurviger a bit better.

That leads me to another question.
What is the intended usecase for the option "calculate route from current position" on import?
If I press the "navigate button" the route is calculated anyway from the current position (asumed recalculation is switched on).

Maybe it is more intuitive for the user to replace the option "calculate route from current position" with something else?!
Maybe like this:
- calculate route to start point
- calculate way to nearest point of the route
- keep route as is.

Manfred

Emux

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Jun 3, 2018, 2:16:22 PM6/3/18
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Hi Manfred,

Thanks for the questions!

When import a route, can simply do that with default options and it'll just render on map.
If user location is away and want to calculate also its path up there, then can set a start waypoint at user location for the recalculation.

Or that can be done automatically with navigation (rerouting).
But not everyone uses it and several would prefer to design first the whole route.
So that check box is a helper option in all those situations.

We can see user opinions, probably some option improvements are needed. :)

--
Emux

karstinho

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Jun 3, 2018, 2:54:31 PM6/3/18
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Hi Emux, hi Manfred,

thank you for your explanations. I'd never expected, Kurviger would join the route at the nearest possible point.

I would think, this could result in even more strange behaviour, if your current location is somewhere near start/end of the route. If I get you right, the only possibility to start the whole route from another point than the starting point, is to be located nearer to section 1 (start - waypoint on) than to the last section (last waypoint - end position) (or any other section). Especially if you start near start/end point, the possibility to be nearer to the last section could be much more higher than being nearer to section 1. That would explain the strange behaviour of Kurviger I noticed some days ago, when I tried starting a route directly from my garage (start and end point are on the street before and the route comes from the same one direction). I experienced the same behaviour I described in this thread, but at that time I thought it could be solved with the Beta-Option "Verwende Orientierung" but I could not test that after the update.

As I have to consider, its unusual to start to a roundtrip from about 350 km away - but that distance made me  think of a routing problem, because I couldn't imagine that this could have an effect on entering the route.

I thinks it could be the most useful way to let Kurviger always navigate to waypoint 1 of the imported route if current position is not start point. That should solve all problems for starting the tour near starting point without having to be exactly at the starting point.

I'd assume that you offer this "strange" behaviour (enter tour at nearest point) as an additional option, and as mentioned above also the option, to navigate to starting point of the route (instead of nearest point or waypoint 1)

Thanks for your great support!

LG karstinho

karstinho

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Jun 3, 2018, 3:08:47 PM6/3/18
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 Additional Info: I was curious because one difference of the both test routes was the directione (clockwise vs. counterclockwise). I just inverted the direction of both of the routes (2.1 and 1.1) to turn over the ending and the starting of the routes. As now expected after your explanation, the results while starting navigation from hamburg are also "inverted". If you'd like to check that, the new inverted routes are also enclosed. Seems to be that this is the explanation for the (at least by me) unexpected results. Now as we know the reason, it should be at least a little easier to change the route to get to the wanted results.
Test1.2invertedroute.kurviger
Test2.2invertedroute.kurviger

Emux

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Jun 3, 2018, 3:16:20 PM6/3/18
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Hi Karstinho,


> I'd never expected, Kurviger would join the route at the nearest possible point.

Note an important difference, the rerouting - in Navigation - is expected to get driver resuming to the closest route point (not back at start).

But when import a route without navigation, there appears that users should have option for how their location should be handled.


> That would explain the strange behaviour of Kurviger I noticed some days ago, when I tried starting a route directly from my garage (start and end point are on the street before and the route comes from the same one direction).

If a rerouting was made then it could be a similar case.
If no rerouting happened, but navigation ended immediately then the new option "Orientation support" could help there.

> I was curious because one difference of the both test routes was the direction (clockwise vs. counterclockwise).

The algorithm currently travels over the route like the driver, so the direction indeed plays a role.


> Thanks for your great support!

We always like to discuss all matters with users, only that way the software can get better and you can benefit more from it! :)


So appears that the location check box can be converted to 3 choices (like Manfred mentioned above)?
- Routing from location to start
- Routing from location to nearest point
- None

--
Emux

karstinho

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Jun 3, 2018, 3:59:31 PM6/3/18
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Yes indeed I made a difference between starting a route and rerouting while driving the route. Of course you're right, while leaving the route on tour the best option is to get back at the route at the closest point possible. I think this behaviour is the only reasonable way to reroute.

On starting a route this behaviour still would confuse me.

So you maybe could think of separating the algorithms between both situations if possible (I'm no developer so I have no clue what could be possible or not)

Also the mentioned checks by Manfred could be helpful, I'd like to add one (navigate to waypoint 1). After our discussion I'm not quite aware of the difference between "do nothing" and "route to nearest point". My understanding was, that doing nothing will automatically result in routing to the nearest point... So in my understanding the options while starting a route could be:

- Routing from location to 1st waypoint
- Routing from location to start
- Routing from location to nearest point

Maybe these options could be added in the settings in a category like "start route navigation" or something like that in order to allow an easy usability.

LG karstinho

Manfred Frommel

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Jun 4, 2018, 12:48:43 AM6/4/18
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Am Sonntag, 3. Juni 2018 21:59:31 UTC+2 schrieb karstinho:
After our discussion I'm not quite aware of the difference between "do nothing" and "route to nearest point". My understanding was, that doing nothing will automatically result in routing to the nearest point...

Hi, karstinho,

 I thought the same. The difference is, that
"Routing from location to nearest point" will reroute during import,
while "do nothing" will only reroute when you start navigation.

A tiny difference, but some users might prefer the route unchanged at first.

Maybe these options could be added in the settings in a category like "start route navigation" or something like that in order to allow an easy usability.

Oh, please don't overload the "settings menu". The "settings menu" is already very full of options.
I thought this shoult go into the dialog when importing the route.

Manfred

Manfred Frommel

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Jun 4, 2018, 1:11:04 AM6/4/18
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IMHO "do nothing" and leave the route uncanged when importing shold be the default
as this is currently the only way to get true offline navigation.

I often load (import) a preplanned route, and then ride to the beginning of the route without the help of Kurviger.
When I've reached the route I start navigation and let Kurviger guide me along the route.
Sometimes even without recalculation, so I can leave the route and come back at any point later without the route beeing changed.

Manfred

karstinho

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Jun 4, 2018, 1:36:21 AM6/4/18
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My opinion would be letting the checkbox already existing unchanged, so the User can still decide whether he or she would recalculate a Route on Import. The way the recalculation is done could be the 3 options and i think you would decide only once which way is the best for yourself. So you can decide the way of recalculation in the settings while deciding if a recalculation is done via the already existing checkbox. If you decide to not start navigation on import the Route would bei imported completely unchanged.

Best regards
karstinho

Emux

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Jun 4, 2018, 3:20:16 AM6/4/18
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Hi everyone,

The "No routing from location" option (can be default) in Import would lead to just import the route and stops there - as being the expected behavior for most users.

The other 2 options would lead to an extra routing from location to either route start or route nearest point.

Since those options are related to Import process they belong to its dialog, so can be changed easily in every import?
    • Routing from location to start
    • Routing from location to nearest point
    • No routing from location
    Navigation is a different process, or do you think its own rerouting needs something too?

    --
    Emux

    karstinho

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    Jun 4, 2018, 4:31:23 AM6/4/18
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    Hi everyone,

    I'd like to point out in what situation I first made the experience with this way of navigating:

    It did not happen when importing the route with direct calculation. It happened with an imported route without changes and then by hitting the "start Navigation" arrow. My position was not exactly at start/end so that Kurviger tried to navigate me to the route. But because I obviously was a little nearer to the end of the route I had no chance to drive the route from the beginning without driving som (kilo-)meters and start navigation again.

    So I assume to find a solution that will face this situation either.

    Regarding to your suggestions my understanding is, that you only "fix" the calculation on importing the routes but will face the same "problem" afterwards when you start the route as described above.

    I tried to find a way to tell Kurviger how to behave on starting a roundtrip independent from doing it directly when imported or starting an already imported roundtrip. So that led me to the suggestion to let the user decide by the three mentioned options, how Kurviger will behave on starting a route in general - no matter if it is calculated directly on import or you start routing later.

    Best regards
    karstinho

    Emux

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    Jun 4, 2018, 4:40:35 AM6/4/18
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    Ah now I understand better the case specifically with navigation!
    The aforementioned proposal was intended more for the Import process.

    Indeed starting navigation can be improved too, with options for rerouting to route start or nearest point (current behavior).

    Need to think a bit how to offer those and adjust accordingly the UI.

    --
    Emux
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