HH Bhanu Maharaj's lecture at Mayapur

[Vijayakamala jps]

Live From Sri Mayapur Candrodaya Mandir!
Date: February 25th, 2011
Topic: Dhruva Maharaja Goes Back To Godhead
Verse: SB 4.12. 19
Speaker: HH Bhanu Swami
__________________________________________

dadarsa vimanagryam
nabhaso 'vatarad dhruvah
vibhrajayad dasa diso
rakapatim ivoditam

TRANSLATION: As soon as the symptoms of his liberation were manifest, he saw
a very beautiful airplane coming down from the sky, as if the brilliant full
moon were coming down, illuminating all the ten directions.

PURPORT: There are different levels of acquired knowledge -- direct
knowledge, knowledge received from authorities, transcendental knowledge,
knowledge beyond the senses, and finally spiritual knowledge. When one
surpasses the stage of acquiring knowledge by the descending process, he is
immediately situated on the transcendental platform. Dhruva Maharaja, being
liberated from the material concept of life, was situated in transcendental
knowledge and could perceive the presence of a transcendental airplane which
was as brilliant as the full moonlight. This is not possible in the stages
of direct or indirect perception of knowledge. Such knowledge is a special
favour of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. One can, however, rise to this
platform of knowledge by the gradual process of advancing in devotional
service, or Krishna consciousness. [End of Srila Prabhupada's purport to SB
4.12.19]

HH Bhanu Swami:  So this verse and purport is describing the culmination of
Dhruva Maharaja's life. Of course when he was a young child he saw the
Supreme Lord directly after he followed the instructions of Narada Muni and
worshipped the Supreme Lord in the forest. Then he was instructed to rule
the kingdom for thousands of years. He did so. Finally this section
describes how he left. He left and in one sense he didn't leave because he
is still within the universe. The body was the same in one sense but it was
spiritualized. He had the same body but suddenly it became spiritual, turned
golden and became spiritual. So it is described how the Visnuduttas came and
took him to the pole star, Dhruvaloka which was equivalent to the spiritual
world.

So here it is described how this vimana airplane came down and delivered him
to the spiritual planet within this material world. So of course we have
many different types of transportation these days. Vimana in Sanskrit also
means airplane or whatever and even today the use of an airplane, Bangladesh
Airlines for instances, vimana also.

So there are both material and spiritual means of air travel. We know about
the material ones. Actually before this there was walking on foot and we
hear of Lord Caitanya walking throughout India on foot. He didn't even use a
car or a horse or anything He walked with His feet all over India. So that
is the most immediate means of going from one place to another.

Then of course we have other means. When people got wheels on their carts
then they started going on carts, chariots or whatever. We find also in the
Bhagavatam etc. where people travel around on ox carts. Nanda Maharaja put
everything on the carts when he moved from Mahavan to Vrindavan on many
carts and of course Krishna riding around on His chariot with Arjuna on the
Battlefield of Kuruksetra. So vehicles were quite common.

Historically speaking in terms of what we call modern view of history this
type of transport went on for quite a while even though in the bhagavat we
have other means to travel like airplanes and spaceships, etc. This was the
mode of travel for thousands and thousands of years along with the walking
process because we want to go from one place to the other. And eventually
they got onto the more modern type of things were steam engines and big
machines etc. like that and they started to develop in that direction,
modern technology of course. You get modern trains like the Japanese train.
[Laughs] That was on direction.

Then of course things got more developed then they started making airplanes,
another type of vimanan, material vimana and this has become very common in
the modern world. This of course still confines us to this earth. We go from
one place on earth to another. So this is material travel. That is more
efficient or quicker we can say than walking on your feet. But man of course
is very ambitious so he wants to do something more than that. Then they
start to try to go beyond earth. We are stuck here more or less like this
but they want to get beyond that so then they start going upwards with
rocket ships etc. conquer space or whatever the universe, go to the moon, go
to Mars or go to other planets like this.

This has been their endeavour in the last half century or so, sixty years or
so, shooting rockets off to space and all of that in an attempt to discover
what is there and try to conquer. We are very, very limited in what we can
do still we make this attempt to go beyond our limits on this earth's
surface. In this way we get a feeling of our powers. So this has been the
attempt and no matter what we do of course we are always limited. Our means
are limited and our machines are material.

So if we get the most advanced Starwars machine however [Laughter] then we
can go across the universe still it is within the universe. They don't go
beyond the universe. They are still going from planet to planet, galaxy to
galaxy within this universe. They are not going beyond it. This of course
they think is fantastic. "We can go somewhere." A billion miles across the
universe in three seconds or whatever! Maybe we can do that in the future.
So still it is limited because it is within this material universe. Material
means with material results. So we can keep trying to do this but it is all
limited.

Of course in the scriptures like the Bhagavatam we have the vimana. There
are two types. One is the devatas have vimanas and they can go from
Svargaloka to down here or somewhere else in the universe very quickly. That
is one type but we know that the devatas are also limited. They stay within
the material universe. They can't go beyond it. So that type of vimana even
if it sounds fantastic in the Bhagavatam it is also limited vehicle like a
rocket ship or the Starwars-ship or whatever. It is limited. You can go
within the universe only.

Then of course you have the other vimana which is described here. This is
the vehicle that takes you beyond the material world, beyond birth and
death, beyond karma. This is a very special vehicle, something quite
different from that. It may look like it but it is actually quite special.
Interesting to know that the vimanas are described as temples.  This is also
a vimana but it is a temple actually but it is called vimana.

The South Indian Temple actually is technically a vehicle also. Of course it
is modern and it is a real vehicle going to the spiritual world also. Of
course we have other vehicles like this. Anyway this vehicle was described
to be like the full moon. It was illuminating like the full moon, very, very
beautiful a vehicle but as I said different vehicles go to different places.
It is based on our knowledge. If we get material knowledge we can do
material thing and with spiritual knowledge we can do spiritual things. If
we have material knowledge we can get material destinations and if we get
spiritual knowledge we can get spiritual destinations.

So Prabhupada mentions here the different types of knowledge. One of course
is the everyday knowledge that we have using our eyes, ears and senses, also
touch - direct sense knowledge, which is convenient for us. By this we can
live in the material world, support our body and infer so many things. Then
we get the next one, using that observation we can infer this or whatever.
Anuman we get inference we get indirect knowledge. So these are very useful
for us and it helps us in many aspects - we can read books and so many
things - that is inference.

There are common types of knowledge by again it is limited because our
senses are material, mind and intelligence are material so all is limited.
How far can we get with material knowledge? This is what the scientists are
doing. They have pratyaksa and anuman and we get material results. It may be
fantastic but it is limited by material means. It is all material. Material
knowledge is limited to within the material realm.

Then we have sabda or spiritual knowledge - knowledge coming down from
authorities, authorized knowledge, eternal knowledge. By hearing that we can
get a different result. So this gives us the opportunity to get spiritual
knowledge and therefore get a spiritual destination and of course through
that we get direct perception of the Supreme Lord. So we get perception but
it is a different perception. Here we get perception now and it is material.
Through spiritual knowledge we develop a different type of perception by
which we get a different destination and perceive the Supreme Lord.

So that is the result of spiritual knowledge. This is what Dhruva got. Of
course he was very fortunate that even without scripture but simply the
mercy of Narada Muni and his teachings on devotion this is how the Lord
became merciful to him and showed Himself to him at a very young age. The
knowledge is necessary. The practice is necessary. Narada Muni gave the
knowledge. Dhruva practiced bhakti and the Lord was merciful and showed
Himself. Obviously he had a very, very special vision, spiritual vision.
Later on at the end of his life again he was able to see the Lord finally
and this describes how he saw the Lord. The vimana came down. He got on and
it took him to Dhruvaloka and there the Supreme Lord was standing. So he got
direct perception again after so many thousands of years. So what is that
authoritative knowledge or sabda?

What we accept as authoritative knowledge is of a different source. We have
the Vedas or the sruti. Sruti means heard, not composed, eternal. Vyasadev
writes it down. He doesn't compose it. It is eternal. And at the beginning
of Kali-yuga Vedavyasa appears and divides it up into four parts. As
described in the Bhagavatam he gives it to his students to pass on in the
future. So we have got the rg, the sama, yajur and atharva and of course
from the Vedas you get the Brahmanas, Aranyakas, Upanisads and the Samhitas.
Brahmanas are .. This is karma kanda, uttar-mimansa. The Upanisada, jnana
kanda all about Brahman and atma. The Samhitas deal with upasana ultimately
the worship of Visnu.

Vedavyasa also found that it was rather difficult for people to access the
Vedas in Kali yuga and of course the Vedas are only taught to people of the
higher classes. Sudras or outcastes cannot read the Vedas. In Kali-yuga
everybody is sudra or less, how are they going to access the Vedas at all.
Therefore he wrote the Mahabharata which is Itihasa or history or epic for
the common people. Outcastes and sudras can also read. They did not have to
have qualification. In the Mahabharat we have the philosophical essence in
the Bhagavad-gita. So that is one way to give it.

Another way to give it was to write the Puranas. We know there are eighteen
maha puranas or major puranas. They are divided according to who they are
aimed at, who is the audience. The tamasic Puranas for people in tama-guna,
worship of Siva. Rajarsic Puranas or worship of Brahman for people in
raja-guna. There are sattvic Puranas for people in sattva-guna who worship
Visnu. So Vedasvyasa thought, "Okay now my work is complete." But as
described in the first canto of the Bhagavatam he was sitting by the river
in the Himalayas. He wasn't feeling quite satisfied after he did all this.

Then Narada Muni came. He said, "You have made a mistake. Don't do this.
Don't present many types of worship, many processes for different people in
different gunas. Present only one process, one object of worship."  Based on
this Vedasvyasa then devised one of the Puranas and this became the
Srimad-Bhagavatam with one process, bhakti and one object of worship,
Krishna. "Don't confuse everybody, just write one."

So basically we have the Vedas which are eternal but then we have the
Mahabharat written by Vedavyasa and you have the Puranas written by
Vedavyasa. Vedavyasa also wrote the Brahma-sutras to explain Upanisads, the
jnana. So he wrote three things but all of these are summarized or concluded
in the Bhagavatam.

As we know Lord Caitanya said that the natural commentary of the
Brahma-sutras is the Bhagavatam. In the Bhagavatam we have an hint of that
in the first verse, janmad yasya yatah. So these are the Brahma-sutras in
the Bhagavatam and this is some of it. As for the Puranas we know that
Vedvyasa wrote the Puranas and then Narada said, "Get rid of this. Just
write the essence of everything." So he wrote the Bhagavatam and the
Mahabharat. The Mahabharat is ... So therefore everything culminates in the
Srimad Bhagavatam. So if we are looking for sabda or a process of spiritual
knowledge we go to the Bhagavatam. This opens the final conclusion without
any discrepencies.

Therefore it is said that Srimad Bhagavatam is the highest fruit on the
desire tree of the Vedas. We all want different things from scripture, we
have some motive. We want something out of the Vedas. What do we want? So
there are many results you can get from the Vedas. So what does Bhagavatam
give? It is the highest truth, highest result. And what is the highest
result? Of course it is prema. So there are many, many results that you can
get and it is the Bhagavatam which gives prema. Other scriptures also give.
There are other bhakti scriptures but this gives the highest prema which we
will explain.

We get all sorts of prema in relation to God but there are many conceptions
of God, many perceptions of God. Kapila as is explained in the section on
Kapiladev's teachings, just as one object has many qualities and is
perceived by the senses in various ways so too Bhagavan is perceived
differently by various scriptural practices. So different parts of the
scriptures will give different practices and as a result you see a different
form of the Lord. They may appear completely different. "This is the Lord."
"That is the Lord." We have an argument. It is all the Lord but is perceived
differently according to the different ...

So just as we would have a glass of milk - this example is given by Srila
Visvanath Cakravati Thakur. If you perceive it only with the eye, what do
you see? Something white! If you perceive it with the tongue then it is
something sweet. You only know it is sweet. If you touch it, it is cool or
warm or whatever the texture of it is. Through the ear all we hear is the
word milk. So we get a little bit of knowledge from all the different senses
but we don't get complete knowledge.

Mind takes what we get from all the different senses, puts it all together
and we get a complete understanding of what milk is as far as material
knowledge is concerned and we get a complete understanding of what milk is,
the colour and the taste, and the texture and the liquidity etc.

In the same way different scriptures will reveal different aspects of the
Supreme Lord. One section of the Vedas dealing with karma kanda will tell
you to do sacrifices, karma yoga and all of that. This gives one aspect, the
material aspect - Svargaloka, Brahmaloka and all these things in the
material world. Material desires! If you go to the jnana section, the
Upanisads and you get Brahman, some abstract understanding of God as light,
God is something!

If we go to the Bhagavatam we understand that God is Bhagavan Who includes
everything else through the process of bhakti. So if we follow all the
different scriptures we will get the Supreme Lord but in different ways or
different aspects. Of course the first one, that is actually not directly
the Supreme Lord. Brahman is also the Supreme Lord because we say that the
Supreme Lord is Brahman, Paramatma and Bhagavan. But it is a lesser aspect
of the Lord, a lesser realization.

So we have all of these different perceptions of the Lord from the vaguest
perception, then we get a little more form, a little more qualities and then
more and more qualities until finally we get full manifestation of qualities
in Bhagavan. This is actually were we understand the personal aspect of the
Lord.

Paramatma knowledge, some personality is there but mainly it is power -
power to direct the material world, power to know everything. When we get to
Bhagavan then we get to know the loving aspect of the Supreme Lord, His
relationship with His devotees, how He interacts with His devotees. So that
is realization of Bhagavan. So different scriptures give different process
and different realizations of the Lord. Not wrong but not complete. The most
complete realization covers everything just as $100 also has $2 or $5 in it.
So realization of Bhagavan gives the complete realization.

So from scriptures we get foundational knowledge of where to go, what to do
and everything, we get a process and then it also tells us about a result.
If we follow the process we get that certain result. So based on the type of
scripture we chose obviously we get different results.

Therefore as I said the highest scripture is the Bhagavatam can give us a
particular result. So we have the karma scriptures which give material
results, we have a jnana scripture which gives liberation and realization of
Brahman. We get bhakti scriptures that will give us higher than that -
bhakti and prema. And we have Bhagavatam at the top which gives us special
prema. Or there are different destinations. You get Svarga if you do karma
yoga or whatever. You get Brahman through jnana yoga and we get Vaikuntha
through bhakti yoga. Or we get material enjoyment through karma yoga. We get
Brahmananda or the bliss of Brahman through jnana and we get prema through
bhakti.

So we get different destination, different experience by different
scriptures. This gives us a triangle. Usually we put the triangle the other
way. We put the topmost but I put it the other way around. It shows that the
best results are the biggest, the most complete. Otherwise it looks like
smallest on the top but it is the biggest, the most complete of all.

This we know from Bhagavatam verse in canto one that this Absolute Truth is
of three phases, three perceptions but ultimately it is all one. So nothing
is incorrect but Bhagavan is complete. This is actually a very principle
part of our philosophy along with another verse. When we come to Bhagavan
then there is a little problem there because we also got support of
Bhagavan. Bhagavan is only one, even Brahman, Bhagavan and Paramatma, it is
all one and yet Bhagavan also is one. But mysteriously He takes many forms
also. These are described in the Bhagavatam also.

In fact the sages of Naimisaranya asked, "Tell us about all the different
avataras of the Lord." Then there is a whole description given by Suta and
later by Sukadev Goswami of all the different avataras. Many, many avataras
are there.

The avataras can be classed according to Their powers and the qualities that
They manifest. Even if we say They are one sometimes the Lord will manifest
a few qualities and in a different form He will manifest more qualities;
like for instance the sage Kapila doesn't manifest all the qualities whereas
Varaha manifests more power. So we get various manifestations of qualities
even though it is all the Supreme Lord. So, why the Lord does this? He does
because He is infinite and He has infinite desires to do infinite number of
things in different ways. So He takes different forms and does different
things.

We have performance of Bhagavan. At the bottom we have the avesa forms, the
saktyaves-avatara forms. These are actually not Bhagavan at all. They are
jivas but they are endowed especially by the Lord eternally with that
special sakti. So they have a very special position more than other jivas.
Devatas also have power but that is in a lesser category. Here these have
eternal endowment of power. For instance Narada Muni has the power of bhakti
and the Kumaras have the power or sakti of jnana eternally. They are in the
spiritual world. They come in the material world.

 So we have these fixed avesa avataras of the Lord and which are jivas with
special powers. Above that we have the full forms of the Lord but even They
have various manifestations of powers so we have this prabhava. They have
lesser powers. They show a very impermanent form. They appear and disappear
very quickly like Mohini or Hamsa. Then we have those which are a little
more important and have more powers, like Kurma; Matsya; Nara-narayana. And
we have those which are even more power than Them - Varaha; Vamana;
Hayagriva etc.

These classifications are according to Rupa Goswami in Lagu Bhagavatamrta.
And above that we have purnat purna, They manifest more qualities, more
powers. Who are the punar ones? We have Nrsimhadeva, Ramacandra and Krishna.
Krishna is the power. That is the final form and the complete manifestation
of qualities and powers and mercy etc. This of course is indicated very
clearly at the beginning of the Bhagavatam in this particular famous verse
krsnas tu bhagavan svayam. [SB 1.3.28] This is the other principle of
Gaudiya philosophy and the Bhagavatam - that Krishna is the final form, the
complete form, complete manifestation of all qualities of the Supreme Lord.

We have Nrsimhadev of course and then we have Rama and then we have Krishna.
What is special about Krishna? I said He manifests more qualities and more
powers; more compassion etc. The special qualities of course are enumerated
by Rupa Goswami in the 'Nectar of Devotion' as four special qualities. There
are sixty four qualities of the Supreme Lord and the other forms have sixty
and Krishna will have sixty four. He has four special things that He
manifests that the other forms of Bhagavan don't manifest. One of that is
rupa-madhurya which means the sweetness of His form.

All forms of the Lord are beautiful. They are all spiritual. They are not
material. And they are all spiritually attractive but according to Their
pastimes and according to Their form They are attractive in different ways.
So Krishna contains all the other attractions of all the other forms like
Kurma, Matsya, Hayagriva and everyone else but something extra special -
madhurya, some very sweet feeling upon seeing that form. So it means a very
intimate type of love, very natural because what is that form? It is a human
like form with which you can relate very nicely more than with the pig form
or the lion form or whatever. And it is not just a human form. It is a young
form. Sometimes even baby, young boy, not older person but a very young
person.

Also He is a cowherd boy. He is not a king or a prince. He is actually a
cowherd boy, a very common type of person. So this particular form of
Krishna involves a very intimate type of, informal type of love. This is
madhurya-rupa. And because He has that very intimate type of form He
develops intimate types of devotees of all sorts.

So we get a full manifestation of all types of love manifesting in Krishna
which we won't find even in Nrsimha or Visnu or whatever other forms of the
Lord. They are all prema of course but it is not manifest to the same degree
because here we have all types of devotees. Other ones it is all servants,
dasya rasa but with Krishna we get dasya, sakya, vatsala and madhurya or all
sorts of varities - not only that. It is very intense and very intimate. Of
course we have madhurya rasa with Laxmi Narayan. It does not have the same
intimacy as with Krishna. So all types of devotees have a very intimate
relationship with Krishna and consequently that pastimes are very sweet and
intimate with Krishna compared to the other forms. Krishna would not
manifest pastimes like Krishna with Yasoda. Krishna gets tied up by Mother
Yasoda. Rama will not get tied up. Visnu will not get tied up but Krishna
gets tied up.

We have many pastimes of Krishna that would not manifest in the other forms.
And of course we have the venu madhurya. Krishna particularly plays the
flute. What is so special about the flute is that the sound of the flute is
non-different from Krishna's prema, that sweet prema. When anyone hears that
they begin melting with prema. The rocks will melt and the trees will be
oozing honey, the flowers blossom and the river becomes petrified. Everybody
become completely bewildered by prema on hear that flute, that sweet prema
of Vrindavan.

So it is a very, very intense type of love that allured by Krishna. But even
in Krishna we have different forms. We have Dvaraka Krishna, then we have
Madhurya Krishna and we have a Vraja Krishna. It is explained in the 'Nectar
of Devotion' that the Dvaraka form is punar which is complete but the
Mathura form is purna-tara which means more complete. And the Vrindavan form
is purna-tamah which means most complete. Even though it is all Krishna and
Krishna is the Svayam Bhagavan, Svayam Bhagavan will manifest different
amounts in intensities in these different places. He is the same person
actually. He is kaishore in all three. He doesn't age after he leaves
Vrindavan. He is the same age or the same form but the sweetness manifest in
Vrindavan is the most; little less in Mathura and lesser in Dvaraka.

Therefore the inhabitants in these different places have different
experiences with Krishna.  So both the places are categorized as purna,
purnatara and purna-tamah.  So this is the Krishna in Vrindavan, the highest
one. Even in Vrindavan we have various degrees. There is santa rasa which is
the bottom. It is quite neutral. Then we have dasya rasa and above that we
have more intensity, sakhya rasa and more intensity in vatsalya rasa and
then the most intensity in madhurya rasa. We can measure it all in terms of
the intensity of the relationship of the devotee with Krishna. That is
greater. Everything is spiritual, everything is wonderful and it is eternal.
Everything is perfect and satisfying for everybody but objectively speaking
the intensity in madhurya rasa is much greater than any other.

That is because even in prema we have various levels. In 'The Nectar of
Devotion' it says that we get bhava and then we get prema but in Ujjvala
Nilamani Rupa Goswami is saying prema actually has many levels. So in prema
you get rati then we get prema and then more intense you get sneha and in
conjugal rasa you get mana and you get pranaya. Then you get raga, anuraga
and then the topmost or most intense is mahabhava. So we get various levels.
For instance the vatsalya rasa goes up in raga level. That is its limit,
constant raga whereas sakhya rasa may go up to sneha and little pranaya.

In this way in Vrindavam most of the various intensities of love are
manifested. And topmost we get with madhurya rasa which is the maha bhava
manifesting. So anuraga and mahabhava only manifest with madhurya rasa and
not with the other rasas at all. Then even in madhurya rasa we get different
groups. [Laughter] So Ujjvala Nilamani explains the different gopis and how
they interact with Krishna and we have many, many different levels, sub
levels and whatever. Ultimately at the top we get Candravali and Radha and
of the two Radha is the topmost. Radha of course includes her whole group of
the astasakhis and other sakhis who are in Her group. Spiritually they are
all different main gopis but they all have their groups with them.

When we talk about one sakhi we talk about the whole group and not just one
person. At the very top we find Radha and Her group of sakhis. Again this is
the intensity of the love and because of the intensity of their love it is
the most pleasing to Krishna. Although Candrvali is very co-operative and
gentle and whatever, Radha's love is the most intense therefore Krishna
chooses Radha over Candravali. Therefore we get Radha at the very top and
all the gopis with Her.

So therefore the topmost from is Krishna with Radha and the sakhis.
[Audience say Haribol] In our theology we have Radha and Krishna at the top
of everything. And how is that presented? It comes through the knowledge.
That is our vehicle, that is the Bhagavatam. Through the Bhagavatam we
perform our bhakti and we get our knowledge, our bhakti, our goal of Krishna
and all of those wonderful pastimes in the tenth canto etc. Through that
then we can begin to realize Krishna in Vrindavan, all the different rasas
especially the highest one of Radha and Krishna. That is what we have -
Radha Krishna and of course we have Radha and Krishna combined as Gauranga.
This way we have a complete form in Lord Caitanya where Radha and Krishna
combine.

Therefore we have vimanas and how to go to different places. So if we want
to go to the spiritual world definitely we have to use the scripture and if
we are using the scripture then we have to see which scripture gives the
best result. The highest result is given through the Srimad Bhagavatam and
what is that? Worship of Krishna! Then we have all the different rasas
culminating in worship of Radha and Krishna in Vrindavan. So that is our
final goal. It is the goal therefore it is the object of our worship. Hare
Krishna. [Applause]

Prabhu: Hare Krishna. Maharaj you spoke about the gradation and the basis of
intensity of the relationship. One understanding that I heard from Giriraj
Swami that the intensity is the pleasure that Krishna derives from the
relationship. As it becomes more intense Krishna derives more pleasure.

HH Bhanu Swami: It is obvious that the more intense the love the more
attracted Krishna is to that, the more satisfied He is with that. Therefore
Krishna is more attracted to Radha because of the intensity of Her love.
What is the intensity of Her love? What does it feel like? He then becomes
Caitanya Mahaprabhu to taste that and understand what is the taste and
intensity of Her love. So He understands that is the greatest love. Radha's
love is the greatest. Therefore Caitanya Mahaprabhu wanted to taste the
greatness of that love.

Prabhu: Maharaj in the purport Srila Prabhupada explains about the different
stages of knowledge. Can you kindly elaborate how to understand each of
these stages more clearly?

HH Bhanu Swami: It seems to develop out of order because the indirect
knowledge comes later than the direct. Direct is pratyaksa and indirect will
be anumana.

Prabhu: So the five stages and this indirect perception...

HH Bhanu Swami: As I was saying the indirect is anumana, direct is pratyaksa
and authorized or coming from authority is sabda. Then the other two things
are a little vague what they stand for. Whether spiritual
knowledge....Spiritual knowledge and transcendental knowledge, I supposes
you can say that these three levels are direct perception, spiritual
perception after we get sabda. As I said we get sabda then we get
realization and perception of God which could be Brahman or can be Bhagavan.
There are two different levels or spiritual knowledge. I am not the body, I
am Brahman and the other one is you realize the Supreme Lord also. That
would be the second level of knowledge. They definitely explain these terms.

Prabhu: Hare Krishna Maharaj. Thank you for your wonderful presentation. Can
we please hear something more about the vimana of the South Indian Temples?
What have they achieved? And is ...really a vimana a temple or a temple a
vimana and who is the driver and what is the ... [Laughter]

HH Bhanu Swami: Well a vimana is an expensive...in South India for instance
the Venketeswara Temple will have to get a roundish one and the ... temple
has a long type square one. There are various shapes that of course are
derived from certain sastra, the South India scriptures on architecture. So
there are various sorts. Whether they actually represent the same vimana I
don't actually know but obviously it is the temple of the Supreme Lord so it
is a vehicle also. You see the Lord and you see the vehicle - you can go
anyway in this house. Yes a vimana itself is an airplane but it is generally
called His house, the house of the Lord, the dwelling place of the Lord. We
can also....why is that different shape...sastras.

Prabhu:  Sri Rangam Temple, the central sactorium, thats the vimana temple
that came from Dhruvaloka.

HH Bhanu Swami: ...descended from Brahmaloka.

Prabhu: Maharaj we see how Narada is witnessing all these relationships so
is he also able to experience then by witnessing them?

HH Bhanu swami: Narada?

Prabhu Yes. He goes to different lilas and sees Krishna so can he also taste
them also?

HH Bhanu Swami: Narada Muni is a saktyavesa avatara and the Lord is eternal
so obviously he is not like us. He can perceive everything and watch
everything. He has much more knowledge you can say than us. But there is
also limitation according to the will of the Lord. So generally he is dasya
rasa so therefore he can't really appreciate higher rasa. Even in Vrindavan
those who are in dasya rasa or vatsalya rasa never see the madhurya rasa. It
is a contradiction to their rasa so they don't get involved in that at all.
What to speak of NradaMuni, he is not even a resident there.
Prabhu: We see that somehow he is attracted to that means there must be some
taste otherwise why will he be attracted?

HH Bhanu Swami: Yes. Obviously even Siva or Latchmi became attracted but she
couldn't get in also. So according to your qualification you can have the
experience. You may have attraction for it just like Akrura. Uddhava admired
the people of Vrindavan but he was in Mathura. He was in a totally different
bhava. Then aiswarya is also associated with Krishna in a very intimate way
but he had aisvarya so he is in a lower category. But he could appreciate,
he said, "I pray that I could have devotion like them, like the gopis." But
he is in dasya rasa but he could appreciate but not get into it.

Prabhu: Maharaj when the sat-darsan of the Lord, the real darsan of the
Lord, my understanding when I read Prabhupada's books is when a person on
transference of his body, when he leaves his body he goes Gokul Vrindavan
and then from Gokul Vrindavan he goes to Goloka Vrindavan.

HH Bhanu Swami: That is one process. The one process is described in the
Brhad-bhagavatamrta by Visvanath Cakravati. He says that some people say
that first you are born in a universe were Krishna is performing His
pastimes and you get born into a family of that particular gopi for
instance. You are born in a particular family with a mother and a father
cowherd and you grow up but then when you are a certain age you participate
with Krishna in those pastimes. Then you go to the spiritual world and then
you get to know who your mother and father are there. So you get some
identity while you are in the material world in the prakrta pastimes and
then you go there.

He says some people say this and he has no disagreement with them but in
Madhurya Kadambini he describes how when you get to the prema stage you
suddenly just walk into the spiritual world and you just merge into your
spiritual body. You give up this body and you go to the spiritual world.
That is another way. Then we have this way were you get on an airplane and
go off to some loka. There are various ways according to your desire,
Krishna's desire and the mood you have, I suppose.
Prabhu: One more question. You have three categories of sastra. You have the
karma-kanda, the jnana-kanda and the upasanas. Do we utilize the karma kanda
and the jnana kanda sastras or are they interrelated?

HH Bhanu Swami: They all have their purpose, like we have our aparadha -
don't criticize the sruti. Sruti ninda is an aparadha. Don't criticize the
sruti. Sruti means the Vedas and one portion of the Vedas is the karma kanda
portion. Karma kanda is nonsense! No. It is part of the Vedas. Visvanath
Cakravati said therefore we don't criticize. We understand that the Vedas
have different types of processes for different types of people.

So people who are materially attached let them at least follow rules and
regulations, let them do some worship. It will give them some sense
gratification but let them at least respect the Lord and they can worship
devatas and whatever according to some process and control their senses and
get their sense gratification. Let them do that. That is the lowest level.

Higher than that karma kanda is the jnana kanda. And jnana kanda says okay
when you get tired of all that material enjoyment then you renounce it all.
My understanding is that you can get liberation from material world. So that
is jnana kanda. So we have various types of processes for different people.
It is said in the Kapila section that according to the scripture you see God
in different ways. So you can Him in Svargaloka or you can see Him in mukti
in Brahman or you can see Him as Bhagavan.

However in Kali yuga as Narada Muni told Vyasa don't recommend all these
different process. It would confuse the people. Recommend one process for
everybody - for the materially attached, for the materially unattached and
for the devotees, one process, only krsna-bhakti. That is all. Why? Because
Krishna is the most attractive form and the people of Kali yuga are the most
fallen. So they need the most attractive form. Therefore just tell them to
worship Krishna and that would cover everything.
Prabhu: Does it include the knowledge of the karma kanda and upasanas, the
bhagavat , is it interrelated?
HH Bhanu Swami: Well no. We see in the Bhagavatam karma is explained in
terms of varnasrama. In the section on Prahlad there is a section on
varnasrama; eleventh canto again there is a section on varnas and asramas.
And we have jnana. Kapila explains jnana also. In the eleventh canto again
Krishna explains to Uddhava a few chapters on jnana and Brahman etc. And
even yoga is explained by Kapila in the third canto and again by Krishna in
the eleventh canto. There is a very detailed description of the cities you
can get etc.

So these are all explained, why? One reason is because it is scripture so it
should explain everything. But as we know from the very beginning the
direction of Narada Muni was show that bhakti is supreme. Everything else
should not be encouraged. So of course the other aspect is to attract other
people and by becoming attracted maybe they will get association with
devotees and develop attraction for Krishna.
Prabhu: Maharaj you mention Narada Muni, Uddhava and even the Vrajavasis
they don't have access although they may have appreciation. Even the
Vrajavasis may not see madhurya of Krishna with the gopis but then we also
know there is Narada kund here. In Goloka is there Narada kund? That is the
place where Narada had taken a gopis form on the basis of the fact that he
was attracted. So therefore the desire was augmented. My question is does it
apply to everyone including Uddhava that potentially and in time that we
will attain a form that corresponds with our desire and attraction? Once the
attraction is there doesn't it mean that automatically we will - following
the principle that Krishna fulfils all desires?
HH Bhanu Swami: well logically of course everyone will desire to be a gopi.
In that logic everyone will end up as a gopi. There will be no other rasa in
the spiritual world accept gopis. Temporarily I think they can assume forms
like this but that wouldn't be their permanent bhava. We still see Narada
Muni travelling around the universe. He is not a gopi. So temporarily by the
mercy of Krishna he can experience it but it is not a permanent rasa.
Prabhu: Hare Krishna Maharaj. Thank you for your wonderful presentation. I
have a couple of questions regarding rasas. First one is we have the five
main rasas which are santa, dasya, sakhya, vatsalya and madhurya. We find in
Caitanya-caritamrta Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu discouraged santa. He said that
He will give only four processes so my question is why?

My second question is we see in the associates of the Lord those in
different incarnations are dasya or sakhya or some brahman sakhya or
visvambara sakhya. When they come with Caitanya Mahaprabhu do they all get
madhurya because Mahaprabhu came to give madhurya rasa? So those associates
who in previous pastimes of the Lord were in dasya or sakhya did they get
madhurya rasa in Mahaprabhu's lila?

HH Bhanu Swami: Okay. First one, yes. Santa is generally accepted on the
same level as dasya except because there is a perception of the Lord but
very, very little service. So it is described that rsis or sages in the
spiritual world. The sages who saw Krishna coming into the arena of Kamsa.
They saw this feast, santa personified. So they don't have a very developed
relationship. As dasya they should serve Him and therefore the intimacy of
service gives a certain level of prema. That isn't developed in santa. So it
is very limited so therefore it is para rasa but it is a very lowest section
of rasa. It is even said that those who have jnana misra bhakti and never
give that up will get santa rasa in the spiritual world. They have little
jnana mixed with bhakti, jnana misra bhakti so they will have santa rasa to
serve the Lord.

The other question about Mahaprabhu's lila. When we use the word madhurya it
is everything Krishna, like in Vrindavan also is madhurya in one sense but
that doesn't mean it is madhurya rasa. Madhurya in that sense means sweet,
intimate. So everything is intimate there but vatsalya is always vatsalya
but everything has that intimacy. So of course Caitanya Mahaprabhu is
non-different from Krishna so it is like that but actually it is change. So
it is not called madhurya it is call audarya in Lord Caitanya's pastimes
rather than madhurya.  Audarya means very generous, very munificent. So Lord
Caitanya is most merciful to all the fallen souls. He wants to give out
Radha Krishna prema to even the aparadhis.

That is the dominant mood of Lord Caitanya but in the lila we will find
people in dasya. Srivas Pandit is like that in dasya rasa. And vatsalya rasa
is there with the parents of Lord Caitanya, Saci Mata and Jagannath Misra.
We have sakya rasa there with Balarama, Lord Nityananda and the dvadasa
gopas, the associates of Nityananda Prabhu. So they are in sakhya rasa. Then
we find others in conjugal rasa, manjari bhava etc. in Vrindavan.
Prabhu: All the devotees in Iskcon are followers of Caitanya Mahaprabhu so
does it mean that we don't go back to Radha Krishna's pastimes?

HH Bhanu Swami: That is the general but we see that even in Lord Caitanya's
pastimes some people weren't. So we have the sakhya rasa there. Rather than
be a gopi they would be sakha. We have Balarama and we have Sridama. So some
people want to be in that and some of Caitanya Mahaprabhu's associates like
Murari Gupta were worshippers of Rama. Different quorum there, little
strange but never the less so! No everybody but as a general idea on goes to
Krishna in Vrindavana but again that is according to our worship.

So if you worship like this and you concentrate on this as you know from the
eight chapter of Bhagava-gita, what you think of at the time you are dying
you attain. So life after life if you are concentrating on Krishna you are
not going to end up with Nrsingadev or Rama in the spiritual world after
many births of worshipping Radha and Krishna. It depends on who you worship
and how you worship, that is how you get your perfection in the spiritual
world. I think we have to end there. Hare Krishna. [Applause]

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