Let us do Genetic Testing and prove our roots

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Ciju Kurian

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May 13, 2008, 3:51:10 AM5/13/08
to Knanaya Family, Knanaya Jacobite

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

 

Where do we really come from? And how did we get to where we live today? DNA studies suggest that all humans today descend from a group of African ancestors who—about 60,000 years ago—began a remarkable journey.

 

Let all the members give a try............

 

You can visit http://www.nationalgeographic.com/genographic

 

and read and understand about genetic testing.

 

Also visit 

https://www.familytreedna.com/

 

This is quiet interesting, we all can test our genes.

 

Love,

 

Ciju Kurian Pachamkulathu

St Marys Knanaya Jacobite  Church,Kattode.,Tiruvalla

 



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Nithin Zachariah

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May 14, 2008, 11:29:51 AM5/14/08
to knanay...@googlegroups.com
Hi Ciju,
 
This is a great idea !!! please go ahead do the testing and let us know the results please ....
 
-Nithin

 
On 13/05/2008, Ciju Kurian <ci...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

 

Where do we really come from? And how did we get to where we live today? DNA studies suggest that all humans today descend from a group of African ancestors who--about 60,000 years ago--began a remarkable journey.

 

Let all the members give a try............

 

You can visit http://www.nationalgeographic.com/genographic

 

and read and understand about genetic testing.

 

Also visit 

https://www.familytreedna.com/

 

This is quiet interesting, we all can test our genes.

 

Love,

 

Ciju Kurian Pachamkulathu

St Marys Knanaya Jacobite  Church,Kattode.,Tiruvalla

 

Peter Chemmalakuzhy

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May 14, 2008, 11:31:19 AM5/14/08
to knanay...@googlegroups.com, Knanaya Jacobite

Dear Ciju:

 

Let us not go that route again, pleaaaase. We all know that there are tainted blood among us... Its just a faith just like we have with our God. Normally, we do not even try to prove who our father is. If anyone has doubt, then let him/her go and do the test...

 

So, let us not start on this topic any further... Hope, you understand me..

 

Sincerely

 

Peter Chemmalakuzhy.

--- On Tue, 5/13/08, Ciju Kurian <ci...@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Ciju Kurian <ci...@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Knanaya Family] Let us do Genetic Testing and prove our roots
To: "Knanaya Family" <knanay...@googlegroups.com>, "Knanaya Jacobite" <knanaya...@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Tuesday, May 13, 2008, 2:51 AM

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

 

Where do we really come from? And how did we get to where we live today? DNA studies suggest that all humans today descend from a group of African ancestors who--about 60,000 years ago--began a remarkable journey.

 

Let all the members give a try............

 

You can visit http://www.nationalgeographic.com/genographic

 

and read and understand about genetic testing.

 

Also visit  

https://www.familytreedna.com/

 

This is quiet interesting, we all can test our genes.

 

Love,

 

Ciju Kurian Pachamkulathu

St Marys Knanaya Jacobite  Church,Kattode.,Tiruvalla

 

joyson kuriakose

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May 14, 2008, 2:43:59 PM5/14/08
to knanay...@googlegroups.com

DEAR  SIR,
 
REJECTED  OUT RIGHTELY..
.
WOULD  HAVE ENCOURAGED,,, HAD IT  BEEN IN  A  FORUM  OF RATIONALIST.....
WHY WE SHOULD GO FOR A  DNA TEST..AND  FIND THAT YOU ARE A DESCEND FROM A GROUP OF AFRICAN  ANCESTORS,,DATED  BACK 60,OOO YEARS...BY  DNA TEST...
FURTHER  IF WE GO ,, BY DARWIN'S EVALUTIONARY THEOREY,IF  BELIEVED ,,YOU WILL  FIND OUR ANCESTORS  WERE  MONKEYS, APES ,  GORILLAS ETC...
 
DR.  ABRAHAM KOVOOR..FAMOUS RATIONILIST SAID..IN  AN ANSWER TO  """WHO  ARE YOU..???HE  SAID ..I AM THE BYPRODUCT OF  THE BIOLOGICAL ACTIVITIES
OF  MY  PARENTS,  IN  WHICH NEITHER I  HAVE A  DESIRE  NOR A  CHOICE..,,,,,,,
 
I  CAN NOT ACCEPT  IT ..BY VIRTUE OF  MY  FAITH ,  RATHER I  WILL SAY BY MY
BELIEF THAT I   AM THE  DECEDENTS  OF ADAM  FROM EDEN GARDEN...P.B.NO.001,VIA PARADISE,,
 
SO  IF I  USE SOMEBODYES HOUSE NAME AND SAY  YOUR ANCCESTORS  WERE
MONKEYS ,WILL  THEY  ACCEPT BY ANY  DNA TEST,????
 
,SO  FORGET DNA, BRAIN MAPPINGS,..POLYGRAPH  ETC  USED BY  CBI,SLEUTHS.OR INTERPOL...
 
INSTED AS A KNA ,ONLY START FROM WHEN WE LANDED IN """""MahadeverpattanaM''
 
YOU WILL  FIND YOUR ANCESTORS,,  IN  AN  AROUND ..EVEN ,PROBABLEY
END UP THAT U R ALSO  RELATED TO  ME ONE  WAY  OR  OTHER.WAY...BROTHER..
REGARDS,
 
K. JOYSON..ERNAKULAM..
 
OF LATE  ,,,,  I  FEEL BORED,  BECAUSE THOUGH WE HAVE 1000  MEMBERS,HARDELEY
FEW  RESPONDS ,ON  THIS SITE..I MADE A SMALL ESTIMATE IN MY CHRUCH,,,,
THERE ARE POTENTIAL 125 PEOPLE WHO CAN WRITE,..BUT NONE OF  THEM ...ENCOURAGE,,NOR  DO  IT...I GET LOT OF  MAILS FROM  AMERICAN  KNA...(CATHOLIC SIDE )  TOO....
 

Ciju Kurian <ci...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Dear Brothers and Sisters,
 
Where do we really come from? And how did we get to where we live today? DNA studies suggest that all humans today descend from a group of African ancestors who--about 60,000 years ago--began a remarkable journey.
 
Let all the members give a try............
 
 
and read and understand about genetic testing.
 
Also visit 
 
This is quiet interesting, we all can test our genes.
 
Love,
 
Ciju Kurian Pachamkulathu
St Marys Knanaya Jacobite  Church,Kattode.,Tiruvalla
 

Sundeep Thamarappally

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May 15, 2008, 8:07:40 AM5/15/08
to Knanaya Family
Those who are interested to join the DNA test for the Knanaya gene can
log on to the ftdna site and choose project KANAIM. Tests have already
been done, but we need more volunteers. So, if anyone is interested,
please check this facility.

Regards,

Sundeep

On May 14, 8:29 pm, "Nithin Zachariah" <nithin.zachar...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Hi Ciju,
>
> This is a great idea !!! please go ahead do the testing and let us know the
> results please ....
>
> -Nithin
>
> On 13/05/2008, Ciju Kurian <ci...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Dear Brothers and Sisters,
>
> > Where do we *really* come from? And how did we get to where we live today?
> > DNA studies suggest that all humans today descend from a group of African
> > ancestors who--about 60,000 years ago--began a remarkable journey.
>
> > Let all the members give a try............
>
> > You can visithttp://www.nationalgeographic.com/genographic
>
> > and read and understand about genetic testing.
>
> > Also visit
>
> > *https://www.familytreedna.com/*
>
> > This is quiet interesting, we all can test our genes.
>
> > Love,
>
> > *Ciju Kurian Pachamkulathu*
>
> > St Marys Knanaya Jacobite Church,Kattode.,Tiruvalla
>
> > ------------------------------
> > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it
> > now.<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51733/*http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06...>

jojo.th...@gmail.com

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May 20, 2008, 10:37:01 AM5/20/08
to Knanaya Family
hi sundeep,
pls check link http://nasrani.net/2008/04/15/lifestyle-of-kerala-syrian-christians/.
ppl already talking about dna results i dont understand all this but
they say our dna results show as south indians. they also talk about
the kanaim. pls talk in the forum and make it clear.
jojo

On May 15, 5:07 pm, Sundeep Thamarappally <sundeepabra...@gmail.com>
wrote:

alex esthappan

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May 26, 2008, 10:20:53 AM5/26/08
to ci...@yahoo.com, jojo.th...@gmail.com, oys...@yahoo.com, sundeep...@gmail.com, nithin.z...@gmail.com, Luk...@aol.com, knanay...@googlegroups.com, knanaya...@yahoogroups.com, ameri...@gmail.com, marm...@yahoo.com, spo...@gmail.com
Attached are copies of individual and sample group reports of Knanaya DNA test results.  This clearly shows Knanaya is not entirely an endogamous group, but a mix of Jewish, Middle Eastern and Indian populations.  Most of the mixing, it appears, happened at the early stages of our immigration through mixed marriages including in the case of Knanai Thomman.  Though we practice strict endogamy and exclusion now, mixing is still happening, not through marriages but through other relationships. 
 
The only point I want to raise based on these reports is that if we are not endogamous and pure, why we need to exclude our non-endogamous, mixed and adopted children in the name of endogamy and purity.  This practice creates friction with the Church, society and among us.
 
Alex Kavumpurath
NY


Ciju Kurian <ci...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Dear Brothers and Sisters,
 
Where do we really come from? And how did we get to where we live today? DNA studies suggest that all humans today descend from a group of African ancestors who--about 60,000 years ago--began a remarkable journey.
 
Let all the members give a try............
 
 
and read and understand about genetic testing.
 
Also visit 
 
This is quiet interesting, we all can test our genes.
 
Love,
 
Ciju Kurian Pachamkulathu
St Marys Knanaya Jacobite  Church,Kattode.,Tiruvalla
 
DNA-2.doc
Kna Ancestry Project Report.pdf

alex esthappan

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May 31, 2008, 11:03:01 AM5/31/08
to pcku...@yahoo.com, ci...@yahoo.com, jojo.th...@gmail.com, oys...@yahoo.com, nithin.z...@gmail.com, Luk...@aol.com, phil...@yahoo.com, knanay...@yahoogroups.com, knanay...@googlegroups.com, ameri...@gmail.com, marm...@yahoo.com, spo...@gmail.com, kna...@yahoogroups.com
Dear All,
 
Peter Chemmalakuzy's statement "we all know that there are tainted blood among us" may help the community to accept the realty and to end the practice of exclusion.  These people with "tainted blood" are living among us as Knanaites.  They are members of our parish/missions, associations and community without any restrictions.  Even though they are included, we are a separate community.  We have the "we feeling" toward all of our members without regard to their DNA status.  That means endogamy or purity is not the basis of Knanaya community.  We are Knanaites because we are the children of Knanai Thomman and other Knanaya ancestors whether we have pure or tainted DNA.  This is the only common basis for "pure" Knas and 'tainted" Knas who are members today. 
 
The personal observation of Peter Chemmalakuzhy is supported by our color, look, history, ideology, common sense and the recent DNA study of Knanaites.  The DNA study (if anybody wants a copy of the report, let me know) clearly proves that Knanaya is not an endogamous group, but a mix of Jewish, Middle Eastern and Indian populations.  Most of the Knanaites probably think that all these "tainted bloods" are the result of illegitimate relationships.  There is no use of denying it as it is happening in every community.  But, a few instances of illegitimacy cannot be the main reason for the significant degree of mix-up in our community as evidenced by the DNA reports.  Like in the case of Barack Obama, Rahul Gandhi, Tiger Wood and George P. Bush, the main reason for mix-up in the Knanaya community appears to be legitimate relationships happened at the early stages of our immigration including in the case of Knanai Thomman. 
 
Today, we exclude Knas who marry non-Knas and their children to keep us pure, but there is no mechanism to detect and exclude Knas who engage in secret relationship with non-Knas and their "tainted" children.  To save the Knanaya community from this utter shameful condition, we have to either end exclusion or exclude tainted ones as well.  For that DNA testing of every Kna is essential, contrary to the view of Peter C.  As long as majority of Knas and our bishops think this shameful practice as the essence of the Knanaya community, I don't expect anything to happen voluntarily.  We will need more and more shock treatments from within and without the community to change our mindset.  In the meantime, it is very amusing to hear K.J. Philip repeating his "pure" Knanaism despite all kinds of evidences disproving it and Peter Chemmalakuzhy's above comments (pavam vishuasikal). 
 
 
Alex Kavumpurath

simon abraham

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Jun 3, 2008, 1:24:33 PM6/3/08
to knanay...@googlegroups.com, pcku...@yahoo.com, ci...@yahoo.com, jojo.th...@gmail.com, oys...@yahoo.com, nithin.z...@gmail.com, Luk...@aol.com, phil...@yahoo.com, knanay...@yahoogroups.com, knanay...@googlegroups.com, ameri...@gmail.com, marm...@yahoo.com, spo...@gmail.com, kna...@yahoogroups.com

Alex,

These have been KANA arguments for so long in USA,
and now they are active recruiting in India looking
for any disenfranchised Knanayites and/or
non-enodgamous knanayites for various reasons.
If you are marketing and recruiting for KANA
membership, please make it clear to all of us.
I see a value for KANA in your arguments.

Simon

> ---------------------------------

Nithin Zachariah

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Jun 4, 2008, 1:12:05 AM6/4/08
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well said simon.. :)
we do understand why some of our  desperate brothers in USA want to dig deep into this.
Dear Alex, we do  give a lot of value for out tradiotions and the edogamy that we practice..doesnt matter whether the blood is tainted or not....  ..if u feel so shameful for this, u always got ur options with you.
 
Nithin

alex esthappan

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Jun 4, 2008, 9:34:42 PM6/4/08
to knanay...@googlegroups.com, simonv...@yahoo.com, nithin.z...@gmail.com, pcku...@yahoo.com, ci...@yahoo.com, jojo.th...@gmail.com, oys...@yahoo.com, Luk...@aol.com, phil...@yahoo.com, knanay...@yahoogroups.com, ameri...@gmail.com, marm...@yahoo.com, spo...@gmail.com, kna...@yahoogroups.com, son...@gmail.com
Nithin, could you explain how a Kna with "tainted blood" (mix of Kna and non-Kna) can be an endogamous Kna.  It appears that you also agree with Peter C.'s comment that there are "tainted blood" in our community. Nevertheless, you are saying that I may be and you may be "tainted blood", that doesn't matter, we still want to exclude our children, brothers and sisters who marry non-Knas.   To me it doesn't make sense at all.  I am not shameful of our tainted blood, they are our brothers, sisters and children.  What I am shameful is our practice of excluding Knas for purity while many of our members are "tainted". 
 
Today majority of Knas wants to practice absolute purity and to exclude non-endogamous, mixed and adopted Knas from our church and association.  That was the case with majority of Whites in America about 40 years ago.  Today a small group of whites belonging to Ku Klux Klan still wants to practice that, but majority of whites are going to elect a mixed black man as their president. 
 
I am not a member of KANA, but a member of IKCC, NY and Knanaya Catholic mission.  Though I support KANA, my ideas are broader than KANA's.  In my idea there is no need for KANA because all the children of Knanai Thomman will be in one church, one association and in one community.
 
I am a Kna married to a Kna.  I prefer my children and all the Knanaya children marry from our community.  But, if some of them marry from outside (actually many of them do),  I do not want to exclude them. Exclusion for purity is a racist practice supported by racist groups like KKK, unfit to Barack Obama's America and unfit to a christian community.  Until majority of Knas and our bishops realize this, we will be in trouble. 
 
Alex Kavumpurath
 
(Even though my official name is Alex Esthappan, I use my family name in this forum to make it clear that I stand by what I say and not hiding anything.  I encourage everybody to use their family name with their postings). 

Rohit Peter

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Jun 4, 2008, 4:03:16 PM6/4/08
to knanay...@googlegroups.com
Knanayaites trust their mothers. Those who don't, always doubt about purity of blood.

--- On Wed, 6/4/08, Nithin Zachariah <nithin.z...@gmail.com> wrote:

simon abraham

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Jun 5, 2008, 2:24:19 PM6/5/08
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Your emotional feelings about excluding non-endogamous
children is not anything new.
Everybody likes to have their families together.
Nobody wants their children to go away.
But when someone marries, there are two families
involved. Not just yours. What about the other side
of the family. Don't they have the same feelings
towards their children. You want to have it all and
you want call them all as "knas". What about those
proud families on the other side of the equation.
You assume they will let their children in to your
fold and other side will let you have your way.

You bring up Obama's story every time to support your
thesis.
Let's digest that for a moment.
Obama is a member of the mixed race (African Muslim
and white American christian women).
Where does he belong?
Under you definition, he would be an African Muslim
based on his father's tradition.
He is neither African Muslim (Father's tradition) ,
neither American white christian (Mother's tradition).
He is a new breed. He is considered an American Black
Christian.

Let's stop using examples for convenience and stay the
course.
thanks
simon

=== message truncated ===

sunil abraham

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Jun 6, 2008, 10:06:06 AM6/6/08
to knanay...@googlegroups.com

Following is taken from Alex Esttappan's last email.

 

(I am a Kna married to a Kna.  I prefer my children and all the Knanaya children marry from our community.  But, if some of them marry from outside (actually many of them do),  I do not want to exclude them. Exclusion for purity is a racist practice supported by racist groups like KKK, unfit to Barack Obama's America and unfit to a christian community.  Until majority of Knas and our bishops realize this, we will be in trouble. )

 

Based on the above statement by you,  I should call you hypocrat.

If you are not  beliving endogomy and the tradition of  knanaya people that's fine.In that case why do you think or why do you prefer, your children marry from knanaya community.

If you don't belive knanaya tradition, as a father you should encourage your children to marry any one doesn't matter black ,white,kna or non kna and be proud about the same.

Show the courage to throw  the knanaya community(which follow stupidity,---according to you) and and select what you think is best

Based on your couple of emails, you show that ,you are a prooven Republican and has something aganist Obama.

 

Sunil Abraham

Malathusseril

 

 

 

 



--- On Wed, 6/4/08, alex esthappan <aesth...@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: alex esthappan <aesth...@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Knanaya Family] Re: Let us prove our roots

alex esthappan

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Jun 11, 2008, 10:29:57 PM6/11/08
to simon abraham, knanay...@googlegroups.com, nithin.z...@gmail.com, pcku...@yahoo.com, Luk...@aol.com, knanay...@yahoogroups.com, marm...@yahoo.com, spo...@gmail.com
Simon,
 
It appears that you also agree with Peter Chemmalakuzhy’s comment that Knanaya community includes people with "tainted blood" (mix of Kna and non-Kna).  So far nobody disputed it in this forum or anywhere else.  So, it is an undisputed fact that Knanaya community is not entirely an endogamous community.  Based on informal and scientific evidences such as DNA test results, it is an undisputable fact.  Since you agree with this fact there may not be much to discuss, but let us discuss the points you raised. 
 
I agree that when a Kna marries a non-Kna another family belonging to a different community is involved and that non-Kna family probably prefers their child marry from their community.  But after marriage they don’t exclude them from their community.  They accept both of them as a part of their family, church, association and community.  Knanaya is the one who refuses to admit them to their midst.  Why?  I don’t see any other reason other than too much racial feelings.  It is against the general tradition of Eastern Church where girls join the boys' family after marriage.  Our practice is closer to racist groups like KKK who insist for purity.  I am sorry that I am not proud of it.
 
Regarding Barack Obama, I don't think I am using his example for convenience.  I agree with you that he is an African or Black American Christian.   Though he is a mixed Blackman, he is a part of the black American community.   That is my point.  Why don’t we allow that in our community?  If a group of blacks reject him on the basis that he is not black enough, this society would consider that a racist practice.  Like Black American Christians, we are Indian American Knanaya Christians.  We can reject our non-endogamous and mixed brethren in the name of racial purity and get branded as a racist group or accept them and join mainstream society.  Rejecting Barack Obamas of our community is not only a racist practice, but also a great loss to our community.  Can you imagine a community rejecting the president of America in the name of racial purity! 
 
I wonder why majority of Knas, including our bishops, insist to exclude our Barack Obamas, and Rajiv, Sonia and Rahul Gandhis from our community.  Something is wrong somewhere. 
 
 
Alex Kavumpurath 
 
 


simon abraham <simonv...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > wrote:

jaimon mathew

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Jun 14, 2008, 3:51:29 AM6/14/08
to knanay...@googlegroups.com, alex esthappan, simon abraham, nithin.z...@gmail.com, pcku...@yahoo.com, Luk...@aol.com, knanay...@yahoogroups.com, marm...@yahoo.com, spo...@gmail.com

Dear Alex,
I have been reading your mails for a long time.
I would like to point out the following facts to you:
1. We, the Knanayas follow the instructions given by our forefathers.
"Hinduvil poyaalum makkale ningalu
Bandhangal kaividathorkknameppozhum"
We feel proud about that. I don’t think obeying the wishes of the
Parents are some thing really bad. What do you want to say? Should we not follow
The instruction given by our forefathers?
2. As far as I know our community does not allow child marriages. If a Knanaya guy marries a non-Kna gal, he marries it knowing the complete consequences.
I know many Knanaya guys got better marriage proposals
From non-Knanaya families.
But they sacrificed those proposals for the community.
How are you going to reward these people who
Sacrificed their personal happiness for the sake of the community?
Now if you bring these people who willingly wanted to
go out of the community, how do those people who sacrificed their own happiness for the sake of the community will feel now?
Even, I have five cousin brothers who married non-Kna gals.
I don’t feel sorry for them. They knew before their marriage that they will be out of the community. They willingly accepted it for their own personal happiness. Why should you or I feel sorry for them? They are leading their lives happily.
3. Hope you are also a supporter of democracy. In democracy, the will and the wishes of the majority will always prevail and it should be like that. As far as I know the majority of the Knanayas want to exclude the guys who marry non-Kna girls. I think, you should also respect the wishes of the majority. If it is too much suffocating for you,
then the door is always open in front of you. Nobody is forcing you to be in the community.

Thanks

Jaimon Mathew

Joseph Vilangattuseril

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Jun 14, 2008, 8:38:03 PM6/14/08
to knanay...@googlegroups.com

so why is it ok for the white community to not consider her a white man?... that makes no sense..

Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 19:29:57 -0700
From: aesth...@yahoo.com

Subject: [Knanaya Family] Re: Let us prove our roots

sunil abraham

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Jun 18, 2008, 4:22:52 PM6/18/08
to knanay...@googlegroups.com, alex alex

Dear alex,

Don't get me wrong,I can't find any single person supporting your arguement ,and the same time you are keep saying the same thing over and over with out any logic,

Lot of people put an option on the table that you have a choice ,it up to you,

You could stay with us ,if you don't like the practice you are welcomed to say good bye and do join  with whom you think is the best.

Looks like you have "delusion" on the subject that you talking about.

sunilabraham

--- On Wed, 6/11/08, alex esthappan <aesth...@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: alex esthappan <aesth...@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Knanaya Family] Re: Let us prove our roots

jaimon mathew

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Jun 18, 2008, 1:23:10 PM6/18/08
to knanay...@googlegroups.com, aesth...@yahoo.com

 
  Dear Alex,

1. What do you want to say? Do you want to say all our forefathers from AD 345 to till today were just idiots? Do you want to say that they could not just understand a simple advice given to them by their parents and relatives in their own language? Do they need your interpretation to understand the advice given to them?

2. You cant have the cake and eat it too. If you like to remain the member of Knanaya community, you have to follow its rules and regulations. Leave the community. Take the example of a club. When you take the membership of a club, are you not supposed to follow the dress code of the club?

Take the example of the English medium schools of Kerala. The students are forced to wear the western outfits like the pants, belts, ties,..etc.Why are they not allowed to wear simple mundu and shirt? People like you may ask is it not their birth right to wear their ethnic dresses?  Have you ever thought why do all students follow the rules? The answer is simple: if you are the student of that school, you have to follow its rules.

Or take another example of Credit Cards, if you do not pay them back in time, you are charged an amount as fine. Along with the fine they also charge a huge interst. Why do they give you two punishments for a single fault? The answer is very simple: if you are not ready to follow their rules, dont take their cards. So simple as that.

If you allow a Kna guy who marries a non-kna girl to be in the community, what about the guys who did the same thing a 100 years ago? How will you rectify that? If their children and grandchildren will also come to claim their rights, what answers do you have for them? I dont think the community should open the pandora's box now. We like to follow the simple logic. Those who really like the community will always try to be in the community, following its rules and regulations.

3. You can never compare endogamy with untouchability and caste system. Untouchability and caste system harm others. We the Knanayas do not harm any body. We follow certain traditions in our community without harming others in any way. Those who do not like to follow the traditions with us are always encouraged to leave. What injustice are you seeing in that?

You cant always disregard the will and wishes of the majority. The majority has always the right to decide what is best for them. The outsiders cant take decisions for them.In UK, even an idiot can be the ruler of the country, if he is the son of a king. To an outsider like me, the practice looks a little odd and injust.Are there not more efficient people available in that country to lead such a great country? Should the country not in the hands of capable people?  But who am I to decide what is best for them? The English(majority of them) like the son of their king as the next ruler, even if he is an idiot.
The Cubans have Mr. Fidel Castro as their ruler for many decades without any proper elections. But the majority of the Cubans like it that way. To you and me, it may not look as a nice and just practice. But why should the others like you and me worry too much about that? Let the Cubans and the English decide what is best for them. In the samme way, let the Knanayas decide what is best for them.

Thanks

Jaimon


On Wed, 18 Jun 2008 alex esthappan wrote :
>Jaimon,
>  1.        In my interpretation “Bandhangal” means relationships, not just purity.  When we exclude our brethren, we are breaking our relationship with them and thereby disobeying our forefathers.
>  2.        Given a choice most of the Knanaites who marry non-Knas, especially the boys, would stay with us.  If they don't want, nobody is going to force them to stay.  Forcing a Kna to choose the loved one or the community is not right.  They should be free to choose both.  The question is not whether one knows the rule, but whether the rule is just, and acceptable to society and the Church.  In your theory, it was OK to punish a Harijan who dared to disobey the rule of untouchability.  Once upon a time it was possible, but not at this time and age, and in a democracy.
>  3.        Democracy is not simply a majority rule.  Majority rule is based on certain basic principles, which cannot be infringed by the majority.  For example, equality under law is a basic principle.  We cannot allow the principle of caste system in a democracy.  Knanaya community must treat all its members equally whether one is endogamous, non-endogamous, mixed, or adopted.  The majority may want to act in a certain way, but if an individual Kna do not agree, he would react against it, the Church and society would oppose it.  If you can take it, then continue the way now.  But, don’t tell us to accept the abuses, and unjust rules and traditions.  Like untouchability in the Hindu society, the time has come to end untouchability in the Knanaya community.
>
>  Alex Kavumpurath



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alex esthappan

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Jun 21, 2008, 9:51:59 AM6/21/08
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Sunil,
 
Jesus told endogamous Jewish community at his time to end their practice of exclusion and to love Samarians and Gentiles equally and unconditionally.  The high priests of Judaism thought he was delusional and a demon possessed creep.  Whatever he was saying did not make sense to them.  Majority of them did not agree with him.  But, he kept saying the same until they silenced him. 
 
Knanaya ancestors were true believers in Jesus’ teachings.  They came to India to spread his message and to serve the Christian community there.  It is unfortunate and a historical irony that the children of those ancestors, the Knanaites, want to practice exactly what the people who crucified Jesus wanted to practice. 
 
Before I consider accepting your option that I join some other groups, I have one question.  Please tell me why Jesus told Jewish community to end their endogamy and to love Samarians and Gentiles equally and unconditionally.  Was he delusional?  So, I don’t mind to be called delusional, illogical, enemy, traitor, etc.  I think I know what I am doing. 
 
 
Alex Kavumpurath

alex esthappan

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Jun 23, 2008, 9:03:41 PM6/23/08
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I thank KCCNA and its leaders, local association leaders, our bishops and priests for defending Knanaya purity and traditions without any compromise.  I appreciate your valiant efforts to protect us from “impure” people.  The presence of an “impure” person at the convention, even if a child, would be a great disturbance to Knanaya sensitivity.  So, it is a great credit to KCCNA and its convention leaders that they prevented it happening by denying registration to a Knanaya family with an adopted child.  I am sure Jesus is so happy and will reward our community, our leaders and our bishops with special blessings for this humanitarian action.  Keep up the good work!
 
We could do this convention without this kind of shameful and hurtful action.  There is still time to reverse it.  The letter below may help you to make the right decision.
 
 
Alex Kavumpurath
 
 
 
Jose Kallidikil
5050 W. Patterson
Chicago, Il, 60641
 
To,
His Grace Mar Mathew Moolakattil
Arch bishop of Kottyam
 
 
Sub: Cruelty towards Adopted Children
 
 
Your Grace,
 
I am sad and deeply disturbed to learn about an inhuman and most narrow attitude adopted by KCCNA towards a Knanaya family with an adopted child. This family from New York, who were unfortunate to have a baby of their own, chose to adopt a child.  This girl now 12 years old, was very excited to attend the Knanaya convention in neighboring New Jersey next month.  But the KCCNA convention committee rejected their registration on the grounds that the girl was not born of Knanaya parents.  Many Knanaya families in the New York area could not comprehend this unchristian outlook of the KCCNA.
 
‘Adopt not abort’ is a slogan vigorously promoted by all Christians including the Catholic Church in the United States.  The civil laws of the United States confer an adopted child all the privileges that a naturally born child enjoys.  The canon law is very clear in its position regarding the status of an adopted child.  Church law mandates us to treat and consider an adopted child as a member of the parish of his or her adopted parents.  Fear of discrimination of any sort a child may encounter at the adopted home disqualifies prospective parents from adopting a child in U.S.
 
Racial consideration or prejudices should not be barriers to advance our faith.  Love, affection, understanding and faith are the basis for building strong Christian families.  Even a decade after his marriage, a collogue of mine who is an atheist with a devout catholic wife was not blessed with a child. They chose adoption and obtained a child from China after a cumbersome procedure.  A few years later they adopted an abandoned baby found at the Chicago Airport.  Even though my collogue is not a regular church goer, he is proud of the catholic upbringing of his adopted children.
 
 
Primitive and insane attitude adopted by the KCCNA leadership towards adopted children will one day be exposed and alienate this community from American Christians and mainstream society.  Conscious or not, association with a racist organization like KCCNA could imperil the chances of our youngsters who have political aspirations.  Such association will also count against those considered for high profile positions such as Attorney General, Directors of CIA, FBI, Home Land Security, Federal Judges etc which require senate confirmation.
 
The New Jersey convention may be remembered for its record participation.  Distinguished personalities from many walks of life may add color to the convention.  Your Grace and other religious heads may decorate the convention with your esteemed presence.  But this convention will have the curse of an innocent girl who had no control over her birth or upbringing in a racist community. When the curse of such hurt innocents heaps, the wrath of God will befall this once pious community.  The enemies of the Catholic Church will rejoice over such a tragedy.
 
As the Arch Bishop of Kottayam Diocese and the spiritual head of Knanayats the world over, God has bestowed you with a solemn mission.  Knanayats are yearning for a leader who can liberate us from our prejudices and instill a new vision enabling us to view all God’s creations with dignity and respect.  Advocating for the preservation of irreligious, illogical and immoral customs and traditions does not create a positive perception for the Knanaya society and of an Arch- Bishop in the eyes of the church.  Leadership is not a privilege for all, but a chance for some to uplift the less fortunate
 
 
Thanking you.
Sincerely yours
 
 
( Jose Kallidikil)
 
 
Copy: (1) Cardinal Mar Vakey Vithayathil Major Arch Bishop,
      Syro Malabar Arch Eparchy, Ernakulam
 
(2)    Mar Jacob Angadiath,
       Bishop St. Thomas Syro Malabar,
       Diocese, Chicago

chack...@aol.com

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Jun 25, 2008, 1:55:07 PM6/25/08
to knanay...@googlegroups.com

The debate about endogamy, blood purity, knanaya tradition etc didn't started recently. It was debated for last hundreds of years and it will be debated until the end of the world. We can keep discussing about this but the rules and advices given by our forefathers WILL be followed and WILL remain the same no matter what. As a kna everyone is taught about this by their parents and asked to be followed. We are not the people to change it.
 
Its up to a adult to decide if he/she need to stick with the kna rules. Well, if they see some benefits by breaking the law, its up to them but need to go out of the community. Some cases we let them back if they understand what they did and ready to correct the mistakes. Its not understood why people want to step on both boats. When you do something against the law its for your personal benefits ( like marrying from outside, joining other community etc) When you enjoy those benefits you need to sacrifice something else. The idea of, lets get other benefits first and alter the kna issues later doesn't look like a good plan. Its just the dream of a simple minority who try still to stick with the community.       

    


-Original Message-----
From: jaimon mathew <jaimo...@rediffmail.com>
To: knanay...@googlegroups.com
Cc: aesth...@yahoo.com
Sent: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 1:23 pm
Subject: [Knanaya Family] Re: Let us prove our roots



Share Khan



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joyson kuriakose

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Jun 26, 2008, 11:15:10 AM6/26/08
to knanay...@googlegroups.com

 

dear  alex,

 

i get a  feelings now   that ,    it is  the  reflection of your   feelings...some  where ,,it  hurts  you ..

badley  in  the  name  of  endogamy..thats all..

.

please note  that in  this   site..nobody is  going  to agree..or  support ,,u  r  thoughts..

 

also nobody  will  say /  or  call  you  a  traiter...etc...but  at  the same times...we only  feel   you  had  irational  thinking ...and  a  rationist...so  your  place  is  the  ratationlist

side...that  is  it..

so  dont  be  sentimental....in any  arguments..it  is  obvious...

 

joyson..ekm

sunil abraham

unread,
Jun 27, 2008, 9:05:08 AM6/27/08
to knanay...@googlegroups.com, alex alex

Dear Alex,

 

God never said to marry a Samarian.

He said love your Samarians

Let me ask you

What mistake has ben done by King Solomon?

Sunil



--- On Wed, 6/25/08, chack...@aol.com <chack...@aol.com> wrote:

From: chack...@aol.com <chack...@aol.com>
Subject: [Knanaya Family] Re: Let us prove our roots
To: knanay...@googlegroups.com
Date: Wednesday, June 25, 2008, 1:55 PM


The debate about endogamy, blood purity, knanaya tradition etc didn't started recently. It was debated for last hundreds of years and it will be debated until the end of the world. We can keep discussing about this but the rules and advices given by our forefathers WILL be followed and WILL remain the same no matter what. As a kna everyone is taught about this by their parents and asked to be followed. We are not the people to change it.
 
Its up to a adult to decide if he/she need to stick with the kna rules. Well, if they see some benefits by breaking the law, its up to them but need to go out of the community. Some cases we let them back if they understand what they did and ready to correct the mistakes. Its not understood why people want to step on both boats. When you do something against the law its for your personal benefits ( like marrying from outside, joining other community etc) When you enjoy those benefits you need to sacrifice something else. The idea of, lets get other benefits first and alter the kna issues later doesn't look like a good plan. Its just the dream of a simple minority who try still to stick with the community.       
    


-Original Message-----
From: jaimon mathew <jaimo...@rediffmail.com>
To: knanay...@googlegroups.com
Cc: aesth...@yahoo.com
Sent: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 1:23 pm
Subject: [Knanaya Family] Re: Let us prove our roots



Share Khan


kj philip

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Jun 28, 2008, 2:26:14 AM6/28/08
to knanay...@googlegroups.com
Hi,
Though there may be an exception among those 'claim to be a' knanite ( doubtful, when he always stands as the number one Enemy of the Knanites and of the Community! ) who will never understand 'What is knanaya', as he could never be awaken becos he only 'pretends' to be sleeping !!! He will turn a deaf ear to whatever said about knanaya. He will stick on to his hidden agenda and will continue to work as a tool for somebody else for gains.. Whatever is said about Knanaya, he will keep on bringing up his D.N.A. theory. Did he ever name any race in the world which is 100% pure?!

But I hope Mr. Jose, Kallidukkil will understand better if he thinks over 'What is knanaya?'! His feelings are well understood with due sympathy.

But Knanaya is helpless to accommodate any non-endogamous one, because of its special endogamous nature. If admitted into that Community, then it wont be knanaya anymore! Fortunately or unfortunately, truely, 'That is what is knanaya!' There is no discriminatory treatment towards an adopted child. Same is the treatment for own children, if they are non-endogamous. Mr. Jose would have been aware of this even at the time of adoption.

Allowing a non-knanite to attend a knanaya function is a different thing which the Associations has to decide. Only thing is that the Knanaya Community will not be able to treat a non-endogamous one as a member of that Community.

The problem is with the Community and not with the Church or the family because 'Knanaya' is not a religion but a race/ community.

Kindly go through the following 'Knanaya Laws' for a better understanding.

‘KNANITES’ are the traditional endogamous descendants of Knaithoma or his team. So, they are those born to knanaya couples. A Knanite can never be a non-knanite & vice versa.

‘KNANAYA’ means its endogamous nature & the Community.

KNANAYA COMMUNITY includes all knanites except the ‘KANA’s.
[‘KANA’, in this context, means any knanite who is in wed-lock with a non-knanite] Because he breaks endogamy, the very basis of existance of Knanaya, the Community cannot treat him as its member.

From its beginning, 'ENDOGAMY' has been the strict TRADITION practiced in this Community. So Knanaya is DISTINCT in origin & ancestry

KNANAYA IS NOT A RELIGION, though Knanites are mostly Catholics/Jacobites. It is a community of blood relatives. It surpassed centuries in spite of the Catholics/Jacobites split & the period without knanaya Dioceses/Bishops, only because of the knanaya brotherhood acquired through Endogamy.

K.J.Philip.


--- On Mon, 23/6/08, alex esthappan <aesth...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Even a decade after his marriage, a collogue of mine who is

Unlimited freedom, unlimited storage. Get it now, on http://help.yahoo.com/l/in/yahoo/mail/yahoomail/tools/tools-08.html/

jaimon mathew

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Jun 28, 2008, 5:52:29 AM6/28/08
to knanay...@googlegroups.com, alex esthappan, knanay...@yahoogroups.com, tanim...@yahoo.com, joelj...@yahoo.com, marm...@yahoo.com, muthol...@yahoo.com, sjpac...@yahoo.com, pres...@ikccny.com, joeth...@yahoo.com, thcy...@yahoo.com, cyria...@yahoo.com, edma...@hotmail.com, dominic...@hotmail.com, josek...@yahoo.com, pious...@optonline.net, spo...@gmail.com, Luk...@aol.com

 
Dear Alex,

There are many clubs in my city. I have been not so fortunate to take the memberships of these clubs. If I try to enter any of these clubs, the security at the gate will not allow me to enter their premises as I am not a member. They may even make me to run away from their area.

Will "Jesus be so happy and reward the club authorities for their humanitarian action"? Well,....I am not sure. But I am sure about one thing. Jesus will definitely be unhappy with me for wasting my precious time. As I knew that the members alone will be entertained, I should not have wasted my time to go there.
Mr. Alex, shall I hope that I have made it clear to you?

With regards

Jaimon Mathew

kj philip

unread,
Jul 2, 2008, 1:48:24 PM7/2/08
to knanay...@googlegroups.com

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

As per KNANAYA LAW

 

‘KNANITES’ are the traditionkal endogamous descendants of Knaithoma or his team. So, they are those born to knanaya couples. A Knanite can never be a non-knanite & vice versa.

 

 ‘KNANAYA’ means its endogamous nature & the Community.


 
KNANAYA COMMUNITY includes all knanites except the ‘KANA’s.


[‘KANA’, in this context, means any knanite who is in wedlock with a non-knanite] Because he breaks endogamy, the very basis of existence of Knanaya, the Community cannot accept him as its member.


 From its beginning, 'ENDOGAMY' has been the strict TRADITION practiced in this Community. So Knanaya is DISTINCT in origin & ancestry.


KNANAYA IS NOT A RELIGION, though Knanites are mostly Catholics/Jacobites. It is a community of blood relatives. It surpassed centuries in spite of the Catholics/Jacobites split & the period without knanaya Dioceses/Bishops, only because of the knanaya brotherhood acquired through Endogamy.

                                        

                                                                               K.J.Philip



--- On Fri, 27/6/08, sunil abraham <sabrah...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>  3.        Democracy is not simply a majority rule.  Majority rule is based on certain basic principles, which cannot be infringed by the majority.  For example, equality under law is a basic principle.  We cannot allow the principle of caste system in a democracy.  Knanaya community must treat all its members equally whether one is endogamous, non-endogamous, mixed, or adopted.  The majority may want to act in a certain way, but if an individual Kna do not agree, he would react against it, the Church and society would oppose it.  If you can take it, then continue the way now.  But, don’t tell us to accept the abuses, and unjust rules and traditions..  Like untouchability in the Hindu society, the time has come to end untouchability in the Knanaya community.
> >  I agree that when a Kna marries a non-Kna another family belonging to a different community is involved and that non-Kna family probably prefers their child marry from their community.  But after marriage they don’t exclude them from their community..  They accept both of them as a part of their family, church, association and community.  Knanaya is the one who refuses to admit them to their midst.  Why?  I don’t see any other reason other than too much racial feelings.  It is against the general tradition of Eastern Church where girls join the boys' family after marriage.  Our practice is closer to racist groups like KKK who insist for purity.  I am sorry that I am not proud of it.


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Bring your gang together. Do your thing. Find your favourite Yahoo! Group.

kj philip

unread,
Jul 4, 2008, 1:00:45 AM7/4/08
to knanay...@googlegroups.com
Hi,

I hope Mr. Jose, Kallidukkil will understand better if he thinks over 'What is knanaya?'! His feelings are well understood with due sympathy.

But Knanaya is helpless to accommodate any non-endogamous one, because of its special endogamous nature. If admitted into that Community, then it wont be knanaya anymore! Fortunately or unfortunately, truely, 'That is what is knanaya!' There is no discriminatory treatment towards an adopted child. Same is the treatment for own children, if they are non-endogamous. Mr. Jose would have been aware of this even at the time of adoption.

Allowing a non-knanite to attend a knanaya function is a different thing which the Associations has to decide. Only thing is that the Knanaya Community will not be able to accept a non-endogamous one as a member of that Community.

The problem is with the Community and not with the Church or the family because 'Knanaya' is not a religion but a race/ community.

Kindly go through the following 'Knanaya Laws' for a better understanding.

‘KNANITES’ are the traditional endogamous descendants of Knaithoma or his team. So, they are those born to knanaya couples. A Knanite can never be a non-knanite & vice versa.

‘KNANAYA’ means its endogamous nature & the Community.

KNANAYA COMMUNITY includes all knanites except the ‘KANA’s.

[‘KANA’, in this context, means any knanite who is in wed-lock with a non-knanite] Because he breaks endogamy, the very basis of existance of Knanaya, the Community cannot accept him as its member.

From its beginning, 'ENDOGAMY' has been the strict TRADITION practiced in this Community. So Knanaya is DISTINCT in origin & ancestry

KNANAYA IS NOT A RELIGION, though Knanites are mostly Catholics/Jacobites. It is a community of blood relatives. It surpassed centuries in spite of the Catholics/Jacobites split & the period without knanaya Dioceses/Bishops, only because of the knanaya brotherhood acquired through Endogamy.

K.J.Philip.

--- On Mon, 23/6/08, alex esthappan <aesth...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Meet people who discuss and share your passions. Go to http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/bestofyahoo/

kj philip

unread,
Jul 4, 2008, 1:02:44 AM7/4/08
to knanay...@googlegroups.com
I hope Mr. Jose, Kallidukkil will understand better if he thinks over 'What is knanaya?'! His feelings are well understood with due sympathy.

But Knanaya is helpless to accommodate any non-endogamous one, because of its special endogamous nature. If admitted into that Community, then it wont be knanaya anymore! Fortunately or unfortunately, truely, 'That is what is knanaya!' There is no discriminatory treatment towards an adopted child. Same is the treatment for own children, if they are non-endogamous. Mr. Jose would have been aware of this even at the time of adoption.

Allowing a non-knanite to attend a knanaya function is a different thing which the Associations has to decide. Only thing is that the Knanaya Community will not be able to accept a non-endogamous one as a member of that Community.

The problem is with the Community and not with the Church or the family because 'Knanaya' is not a religion but a race/ community.

Kindly go through the following 'Knanaya Laws' for a better understanding.

‘KNANITES’ are the traditional endogamous descendants of Knaithoma or his team. So, they are those born to knanaya couples. A Knanite can never be a non-knanite & vice versa.

‘KNANAYA’ means its endogamous nature & the Community.

KNANAYA COMMUNITY includes all knanites except the ‘KANA’s.
[‘KANA’, in this context, means any knanite who is in wed-lock with a non-knanite] Because he breaks endogamy, the very basis of existance of Knanaya, the Community cannot accept him as its member.

From its beginning, 'ENDOGAMY' has been the strict TRADITION practiced in this Community. So Knanaya is DISTINCT in origin & ancestry

KNANAYA IS NOT A RELIGION, though Knanites are mostly Catholics/Jacobites. It is a community of blood relatives. It surpassed centuries in spite of the Catholics/Jacobites split & the period without knanaya Dioceses/Bishops, only because of the knanaya brotherhood acquired through Endogamy.

K.J.Philip.

--- On Sat, 28/6/08, jaimon mathew <jaimo...@rediffmail.com> wrote:

Bring your gang together. Do your thing. Find your favourite Yahoo! group at http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/

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