Re: A Compromise- Knanya can never have a compromise on 'Endogamy'.

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kj philip

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Nov 4, 2009, 10:33:36 AM11/4/09
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 Why a knanite who follows exogamy cannot be treated as a member of the Community

 

Because knanites, by tradition, are the endogamous descendants of Kinai-Thoma or of a member his team, their descendants too should have an endogamous birth. But the descendants of one who goes exogamous against the traditions will not be knanites as they will not be endogamous. So knanites are to follow endogamy. Hence, endogamy has been adopted as the foundation and the very basis for the existence and growth of the Community. 

 

Allowing to continue an exogamous knanite in the Community, will be the greatest foolery and blunder the community can ever commit because, it invites a constant, perpetual, highly eruptive and potential danger to its maintenance of the endogamous character. That is the reason why our intelligent fore-fathers combined Exclusion (of the exogamous) with Endogamy as its prime-basic law and tradition. 

 

Knanaya is a community. So it has certain basic rules, regulations or restrictions. Exogamy is an act that ruins the knanaya community. Just like in any community, risking its own existence, knanaya cannot have a soft-corner towards one who ruins it by breaking its very fundamentals. So exogamy is quite unacceptable to knanaya community. So, a knanite who follows exogamy cannot be considered as part of knanaya at any time. A better option is to discard knanya once for all to merge with other communities. What differentiates a member of the Community from another knanite is the practice of endogamy in marriage.

 

The knanaya law is evolved by tradition and is not a written one. Exclusion is the integral part of the tradition and law of the Community. There is no tradition or precedence of including the KANAs in the Community. So, we cannot change the only one basic law of knanaya on which it is built. If changed, there is no knanya, the name will have no relevance and there will not be any difference from others. Then we will have to forget about knanaya and there will be no need for a compromise. We have to decide is YES or NO to knanaya, but not in between.

 

So the knanaya law remains unchanged as follows:-

 

"To continue to be a member of the Community, the knanite should not be married to a non-knanite." 

                                                                                                   

                                                        * * * * *

 

 

 Other points of discussion.

 

So, it is not a question of morality but of the genes. For an incidence of immorality, nobody used to be excluded from any community or even from the Catholic Church. So it cannot be seen as a 'glaring defect'. 

 

It is also not the purity in blood-line with ‘pure’ Jews that decides a member of the Community. But practicing endogamy in marriage, the very basic tradition and law of knanaya, is exceptionally crucial and most important to continue to be a part of the Community. As long asendogamy is followed and non-endogamous births are not known, it cannot be said that knanaya is not endogamous with Kinai-Thoma or his team.

 

Regarding the degree of purity, several aspects have to be considered. For e.g. the purity of Kinai-Thoma and his team with those of 'pure'Jews, if there is a pure one!  We need not bother about any impurity occurred prior to the origin of knanaya in AD 345. So we cannot say that a knanite should be cent % Jew. So the endogamous character of pure Jews need not be the same as those of pure knanites.

 

The knanaya genes are to be compared not with those of the pure Jews but with those of Kinai-Thoma and the members of his team. So their DNA structure has to be ascertained before comparison of the present day knanite genes, to find out whether there is any impurity thereafter! There need not be any impurity after AD 345 though a possibility, which is unknown, is doubted.

 

Whether their relation is morally right or wrong, children of a knanites who followed exogamy  cannot be included in knanaya. If exogamy is followed, it cannot be knanaya. Exogamy is totally against knanaya.

 

Against the concept of knanaya to exclude all the exogamous, there is no formula as ‘Moolakkattu Formula’ to include the knanite only who marry a non-knanite and to exclude his family. So, the reference and statements are misleading and objectionable as they are false and against our beloved knanaya bishop.

 

                                                                                                                                                                                                               Philip Nedumchira.




From: alex esthappan <aesth...@yahoo.com>
To: knanay...@yahoogroups.com; knanay...@googlegroups.com
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Sent: Mon, 2 November, 2009 10:03:35 PM
Subject: A Compromise Proposal from this side to the other side to break the standoff

According to the current “Knanaya Law” that K. J. Philip keep posting - “To be a part/member of the Community, the Knanaite should not be wedded to a non-Knanaite".  That means:

 

1.      If a Kna takes a non-Knanaite as a life partner through the holy sacrament of marriage, it is an “unholy” act punishable by expulsion.  But, if a Kna engages in “holy” acts with non-Knas within or without marriage, he/she is eligible to be a member.    

 

In the above scenario, one Kna is involved in a morally right relationship while the other Kna is involved in an immoral relationship.  Under the current Knanaya Law we exclude Knas who involve in a morally right relationship, but keep Knas who involve in an immoral relationship. Can we change the current Law to rectify this glaring defect by including Knas who involve in a morally right relationship as well?  The Community’s status does not change at all as we do not include non-Kna spouses as members.

 

2.      Knanaya supporters of the current Law accept the possibility of some secret “illicit exogamous birth within a few endogamous marriages and the presence of their descendants through generations”.  They also say that “this uncertain possibility is there in all endogamous communities in the world and this possibility was there right from the time of our Great Father Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and even at the time of origin of Knanaya in AD 345 and thereafter”.  Knanaya Ancestry Project report also confirms this non-endogamy (at substantially higher level than some or few, and due to different causes). 

 

The generally accepted and scientifically proven facts as described above mean that children born to Kna (woman) through secret “holy” acts with non-Knas are “pure” members of Kna community, but children born to Knas through “unholy” sacrament of marriage with non-Knas are not “pure” enough to be members.  The children under both these scenarios are non-endogamous.  The difference is that one is from a morally right relationship and the other is from an immoral relationship.  Can we change the current Law to rectify this glaring defect by including Knanaya non-endogamous children born out of morally right relationship with no-Knas as well?  The community’s current status does not change at all as it already includes non- endogamous children. 

 

The above proposed changes are narrower than the one Catholic Church wants, but wider than “Moolakat Formula”.  The Church wants us to include, in addition to the above members, non-Kna spouses of Knanaites and adopted children of our families.  It is wider than “Moolakat Formula” because Moolakat formula does not include children born out of holy matrimony with non-Knanaites.  Moolakat formula has a glaring defect; it does not guarantee continuity of our families as part of the community and church in the next generation.  The inclusion of children born out of holy matrimony with non-Knas will rectify this glaring defect.  As a compromise, we will accept Moolakat formula for non-Kna spouses of Knas and our adopted children, though I prefer to include them, as well, as full members.

 

If Knanaites like Philip Nedumchira and Joe Vadasserikunnel agree to the above proposed change in the “Knanaya Law”, Knanaya can go forward as a unified and thriving community instead of trying to survive.  These changes would go a long way to solve major issues confronting us today without affecting the current true status of the community much. 

 

 

Alex Kavumpurath
 
 


--- On Sun, 10/18/09, kj philip <phil...@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: kj philip <phil...@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Knanaya Family] Re: African-Americans & Knanaites, Save the endogamous by turning it exogamous!!!
To: knanay...@yahoogroups.com
Cc: knanay...@googlegroups.com
Date: Sunday, October 18, 2009, 8:35 AM


Knanaya is alleged to be mixed, impure and non-endogamous! So the advice given by them is to allow exogamy and inclusion of non-knanites to prevent destroyal of the community!!! How paradoxical?!

Yes, let there be mixed or non-endogamous genes in knanites due to the uncertain possibility of any illicit exogamous birth within a few endogamous marriages and the presence of their descendants through generations! 

This uncertain possibility is there in all the endogamous communities in the world. Because the known cases of the exomous are excluded then and there, knanaya is not less pure than any other endogamous community in the world. 

This  possibility was there right from the time of our Great Father Abraham, Issac, Jacob etc. and even at the time of origin of knanaya in AD 345 and thereafter. So, if the same kind of knanaya was relevant in AD 345, it is relevant and significant even now because endogamy has ever been in strict practise and the exogamous were kept out. 

More than the degree of purity based on DNA results, it is the strict practise of endogamy that differentiates knanaya from other communities and makes it unique. What else is the difference? 

So, if endogamy is not strictly practised, there is no knanaya. Then it just merges and  become one with the whole lot. So after allowing exogamy and admitting the exogamous, we cannot use the name kannaya as it loses all its meaning evolved and there is no need and relevance for a new exogamous community separate from others with some of the old knanites in it.

So, after allowing exogamy and inclusion, the first thing to be done is to discard, disintegrate and dissolve the knanaya Community, Parishes, Missions and the Diocese with the others. 

These are the 'truths' to be accepted.  So, [whether the rule and tradition are 'sacred' or not], the tradition of endogamy and the knanaya rule, very well fit to the truth and so cannot be changed.

Knanaya has only one LAW. It is quite old. i.e.

" to be a part/ member of the Community, the knanite should not be wedded to a non-knanite" 

There is no new law! Otherwise, tell us what is the knanaya-law that is new?! 

The real foolishness is the dream and advice that a community, whose foundation and very basis of existence is nothing other than Endogamy, could be saved by exogamy  and inclusion!!! Whom are they trying to be-fool?!

I don't think that the African-Americans insist on endogamous marriages. So it cannot be compared with knanaya. 

If we think it is foolish to exclude the exogamous doctors and other scholers, let us make the community exogamous and disintegrate it, and if particular to have a new community use a different name. Thus, the solution is simple. But we cannot have  knanaya and include the non-kna at the same time.                                                                                                                                

 We are Knanaites  because, we are descendants of Kinai-Thoma or of his team through the tradition of endogamy and not because of 100% purity.  Our ancestors and we, follow and are born, in endogamy and are not known to be exogamous.  So, the members are eligible to be a members of this community dispite  their DNA structure. 

We would also like to know whether anybody has a DNA sample of a jew, who is 100% pure in his blood-line, to compare it on academic interest, with the DNA of knanites.

                                                                                                                                                                   Philip Nedumchira. 




From: alex esthappan <aesth...@yahoo.com>
To: knanay...@yahoogroups.com; knanay...@googlegroups.com
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Sent: Tue, 13 October, 2009 2:29:44 AM
Subject: Similarity between African-Americans and Indian Knanaites

Dear Knanaites,

 

Please read the article below from NY Times about African-Americans and then read the attached Knanaya Ancestry Project report.  After reading both these reports (please take several days to read and if necessary re-read), I hope you will not hesitate to accept the truth and to change our “sacred” rules and traditions to fit the truth.  Still, it would not surprise me if K. J. Philip and operators of American Kna keep posting the same old “Knanaya Law”. 

 

According to the report below, African-Americans are a mix of Africans, Whites and other populations.  As recently revealed based on research, even Michelle Obama is not a “pure” African.  It is not easy to find an African-American who is 100 percent African no matter how dark or “African” they appear to be.  

 

Like African-Americans, Indian Knanaites are also a mixed group, not an endogamous group.  Knanaya is a mix of Jewish, Middle Eastern and Indian populations.  We are not entirely the descendents of endogamous Jewish people.  Knanaya Ancestry Project report indicates that a population of 54.3% genetic contribution from Asia Minor (both Jewish and non-Jewish), and 45.7% contribution from Sub-continental India would be the least distant from the Knanaya population”

 

Just think for a second, how foolish it would be for African-American community to insist for absolute “purity” and endogamous marriages.  In addition to the legal, social and moral problems, they would have excluded the President, first lady, most of their intellectuals and most of their people.  I hope our people will realize this foolishness and stop the practice of excluding our doctors, engineers and lawyers in the name of purity and endogamy which we don’t have.  I hope our bishops, clergy, KCCNA, and local associations will rise to the occasion and end this madness that is destroying the community. 

 

We are Knanaites not because we are pure and endogamous, but because we are the children of Knanaya ancestors whether pure, endogamous, mixed or adopted.  Otherwise, most of the members are not eligible to be a member of this community. 

  

Shared Ancestries Revealed

 

Henry Louis Gates Jr. is the Alphonse Fletcher University Professor at Harvard and the executive producer and host of “African American Lives” and “Faces of America,” to be broadcast in February on PBS, which will explore the ancestry of Stephen Colbert, Meryl Streep, Eva Longoria, Yo Yo Ma, Mike Nichols, Malcolm Gladwell, and six others.

 

As we have shown in the “African American Lives” series on PBS, fully 58 percent of African Americans have at least 12.5 percent European ancestry. Only 5 percent, in spite of widespread myths to the contrary, have as much Native American ancestry. And between 30 and 35 percent of all African American males can trace their paternal lineage (their y-DNA) to a white man who impregnated a black female most probably during slavery.

The illegality of miscegenation, the prevalence of sexual abuse and rape, guilt, shame, and disgrace kept these relationships hidden.

 

What this means is that, in defiance of the law and social convention, an enormous amount of “race-mixing” has long been occurring in the United States, about which we, as a society, have for just as long been in deep denial.  I have never given an admixture DNA test of a black person who turned out to be 100 percent African, no matter how dark or “African” they appear to be.

 

Some of this inter-racial sexuality was voluntary, we now know, but far more was coerced, a reflection or a result of a profound imbalance of power. Because of a confluence of factors — the illegality of miscegenation, the prevalence of sexual abuse and rape as the source of these relationships, infidelity, guilt, shame, and disgrace — both black people and white people had a certain interest in keeping these relationships in the dark, as it were.

 

 

To read more, please use the following link to NY Times:

 

http://roomfordebate.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/10/08/one-familys-roots-a-nations-history/

 

 

 

--- On Sun, 10/4/09, kj philip <phil...@yahoo.com> wrote:


From: kj philip <phil...@yahoo.com>
Subject: [ KnanayaNews.com ] Genetic ailments among Indians due to endogamy
To: knanay...@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, October 4, 2009, 2:12 PM

 

As per the CONCEPT, knanites are those believed to have been born as a result of endogamous relations. As long as this is the concept, those believed not to have been born on endogamous relations cannot be knanites.  

On several   occasions it was explained that the 'FAMILY', whose basis is not  endogamous, cannot be compared with
'KNANAYA', whose basis is 'endogamous' only. This difference has to be properly understood. It was also said plenty  of times that even the children of Kinai-Thoma cannot be 'knanites' if they are not born to knanite women.

For example,
If  a knanite of the family 'X' marries a non-knanite, though his children in that marriage will continue  to be of the family 'X', they will not be knanites.
So also, if a knanite girl married to a non-knanite happened to have given birth to a child as a result of an illicit relation with a knanite, the child actually will be a knanite, even if born in a non-knanaya family.

It is true that there might be an UNKNOWN possibilit y of  existence of  a few illicit non-endogamous  births and their resultant descendants,  UNKNOWN to the Community, within the endogamous marriages through the centuries. As in any endogamous community in the world, the possibility could be there right from the time of our Great Father Abraham through Issac, Jacob etc. and so, even at the time of the beginning of knanaya in AD 345. But it is only a possibility, the fact of which is unknown / not certain. No known case of impurity in the blood-line is being treated as part of knanaya. So knanaya is not less pure than any other endogamous community   in the world. Nothing more practical could be done about purity .  

So, if the same kind of knanaya and the tradition of endogamy was relevant at the time of its origin, it is equally relevant even today.  Knanaya is knanayabecause the marriages are endogamous and the births are believed or known to be endogamous and not because of its unchallenged purity.  But knowingly including, anyone  born outside an endogamous marriage  will make it non-knanaya and will disintegrate it.  Towards inclusion, a change of mind-set is not possible because it will change the meaning  of knanaya, so what is possible with  inclusion of an exogamous one is only a name-change. Thus we are helpless in accepting inclusion because knanaya will lose its meaning. So what is a must is to follow endogamy  in marriage, to continue to be in the Community. 

I only desired and stressed that knanaya has to be only as per its concept without  any dilusion i.e. to follow endogamy in marriage, without any compromise.

I wonder why somebody who is  prepared even  to change the concept and meaning of knanaya (which is not possible) by including the exogamous, and thus after making it non-knanaya,  are particular that the name 'knanaya' to be retained?! What the harm in not using the name 'knanaya' after inclusion?!

Philip Nedumchira
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    Alex Alappat

    unread,
    Nov 9, 2009, 6:37:53 PM11/9/09
    to knanay...@googlegroups.com, knanaya-news1
     
    Folks,
     
    What a monumental exercise in futility!
     
    It baffles & amuses me no end to note how so many in our commune, expend so  much of their time & energy regurgitating endlessly - for years on end - our time-honoured 'endogamy' tradition, to the stubborn & cantankerous 'exogamy-supporting' likes of Kavumpurath & KANA miltants!!
     
    You can keep debating this with "them", till hell freezes over & you morph into new-age Krishnas (read: turn blue in the face!) & he'll still come back like a broken record, in frenetic praise of exogamy!!
     
    Brings to mind the old truism: There is none so blind as he who will not see"
     
    Then again, it's your time & energy, I guess.
     
    Good luk!
     
    Alex Alappat
     
     


     



     
    Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 21:03:36 +0530
    From: phil...@yahoo.com
    Subject: [Knanaya Family] Re: A Compromise- Knanya can never have a compromise on 'Endogamy'.
    To: knanay...@yahoogroups.com
    CC: knanay...@googlegroups.com

    Jacob, Jojo

    unread,
    Nov 14, 2009, 8:13:42 PM11/14/09
    to knanay...@googlegroups.com
    Well-written Alex.

    Philip says endogamy has been adopted as the foundation. Fundamentalists like him would do well to keep in mind one thing. There are "unofficial" non-endogamous babies in the Kna-community. The need of the hour is to identity such "renegades" and ex-communicate them. Unless the so-called purity might be lost in the v-e-r-y long run.





    Jojo Jacob
    As we have shown in the "African American Lives" series <http://www.pbs.org/wnet/aalives/> on PBS, fully 58 percent of African Americans have at least 12.5 percent European ancestry. Only 5 percent, in spite of widespread myths to the contrary, have as much Native American ancestry. And between 30 and 35 percent of all African American males can trace their paternal lineage (their y-DNA) to a white man who impregnated a black female most probably during slavery.



    The illegality of miscegenation, the prevalence of sexual abuse and rape, guilt, shame, and disgrace kept these relationships hidden.



    What this means is that, in defiance of the law and social convention, an enormous amount of "race-mixing" has long been occurring in the United States, about which we, as a society, have for just as long been in deep denial. I have never given an admixture DNA test of a black person who turned out to be 100 percent African, no matter how dark or "African" they appear to be.



    Some of this inter-racial sexuality was voluntary, we now know, but far more was coerced, a reflection or a result of a profound imbalance of power. Because of a confluence of factors - the illegality of miscegenation, the prevalence of sexual abuse and rape as the source of these relationships, infidelity, guilt, shame, and disgrace - both black people and white people had a certain interest in keeping these relationships in the dark, as it were.





    To read more, please use the following link to NY Times:



    http://roomfordebate.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/10/08/one-familys-roots-a-nations-history/







    --- On Sun, 10/4/09, kj philip <phil...@yahoo.com> wrote:



    From: kj philip <phil...@yahoo.com>
    Subject: [ KnanayaNews.com ] Genetic ailments among Indians due to endogamy
    To: knanay...@yahoogroups.com
    Date: Sunday, October 4, 2009, 2:12 PM




    As per the CONCEPT, knanites are those believed to have been born as a result of endogamous relations. As long as this is the concept, those believed not to have been born on endogamous relations cannot be knanites.

    On several occasions it was explained that the 'FAMILY', whose basis is not endogamous, cannot be compared with
    'KNANAYA', whose basis is 'endogamous' only. This difference has to be properly understood. It was also said plenty of times that even the children of Kinai-Thoma cannot be 'knanites' if they are not born to knanite women.

    For example,
    If a knanite of the family 'X' marries a non-knanite, though his children in that marriage will continue to be of the family 'X', they will not be knanites.
    So also, if a knanite girl married to a non-knanite happened to have given birth to a child as a result of an illicit relation with a knanite, the child actually will be a knanite, even if born in a non-knanaya family.

    It is true that there might be an UNKNOWN possibilit y of existence of a few illicit non-endogamous births and their resultant descendants, UNKNOWN to the Community, within the endogamous marriages through the centuries. As in any endogamous community in the world, the possibility could be there right from the time of our Great Father Abraham through Issac, Jacob etc. and so, even at the time of the beginning of knanaya in AD 345. But it is only a possibility, the fact of which is unknown / not certain. No known case of impurity in the blood-line is being treated as part of knanaya. So knanaya is not less pure than any other endogamous community in the world. Nothing more practical could be done about purity .

    So, if the same kind of knanaya and the tradition of endogamy was relevant at the time of its origin, it is equally relevant even today. Knanaya is knanayabecause the marriages are endogamous and the births are believed or known to be endogamous and not because of its unchallenged purity. But knowingly including, anyone born outside an endogamous marriage will make it non-knanaya and will disintegrate it. Towards inclusion, a change of mind-set is not possible because it will change the meaning of knanaya, so what is possible with inclusion of an exogamous one is only a name-change. Thus we are helpless in accepting inclusion because knanaya will lose its meaning. So what is a must is to follow endogamy in marriage, to continue to be in the Community.

    I only desired and stressed that knanaya has to be only as per its concept without any dilusion i.e. to follow endogamy in marriage, without any compromise.

    I wonder why somebody who is prepared even to change the concept and meaning of knanaya (which is not possible) by including the exogamous, and thus after making it non-knanaya, are particular that the name 'knanaya' to be retained?! What the harm in not using the name 'knanaya' after inclusion?!

    Philip Nedumchira

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