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loughkb

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Idea for (perfect?) retraction!
« on: July 15, 2013, 05:11:31 AM »
Ok, this makes complete sense in my mind, and I feel that it simply HAS to work!

BTW, purchase a key for Kisslicer so I could print multiple copies of an object, ran into trouble due to a slight blobbing even with retraction.  Thought of this.


Every slicer I've tried does retraction the same way.   Retract,  then move to next location, prime, print.

That works well enough at reducing, almost completely, strings and blobs.  But, not perfectly.

Observing the nozzle during this process, I see no ooze during the retraction, but depending on the length of the following move, some ooze starts before the nozzle gets to the next location.   It's gravity and possibly the expansion of the heating PLA, but regardless, some ooze starts.

So,  Here's the big idea.   Don't retract and then move...   Combine to two so that the retraction and the move are happening at the same time.   Simple!   While the filament is being retracted, negative pressure in the nozzle prevents ooze, once the retraction stops, the natural tendency of gravity and expansion will fill the void and begin to ooze.  If the move is happening during the retraction, you cut down the time that any ooze would have to begin before you are printing again.

This has got to work!    I'm dying to test it, but after reading about G-code, I realize I would have one hell of a lot of editing to do to manually implement a test.

Johnathan,  how hard would it be to implement this as a test in Kisslicer?  If this works, you could have a first in the slicing community...

Kevin.

Sublime

Re: Idea for (perfect?) retraction!
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2013, 08:31:54 AM »
I have experimented with something like this and it made a big mess. The reason it does not ooze right now while retracting is because the nozzle is being blocked by the print below it. As soon as you move the differential pressure results in plastic coming out of the hotend. This is made worse on a machine with a Bowden cable. Also what you propose is impossible on a machine with firmware retraction.

Here is my branch of Slic3r 0.7.2b (the only usable version of Slic3r) called Slic3T https://github.com/Intrinsically-Sublime/Slic3T it has the option to combine retraction with Z lift and layer change moves.

This is also how Slic3r handles retractions when in Mach3 mode because Mach3 has an issue that results in long dwell times if not combined.

Now an Idea that I have had and have heard others mention is a double retraction. That is perform a normal retraction as we do now and then add an extra retraction during the travel.

The real problem with all of these travel while retract ideas is actually the fact that the machines synchronize the axis together and if one reaches its limit then the other gets slowed down. So if your machine has a maximum extruder speed of 20mm/s and you have a retraction of say 5mm it takes 0.25 seconds to retract. If the travel move would take less time then that it would get slowed down by the E max speed.

If the blob is at the start of the travel path it means you did not retract enough (or too much). If the blob is at the destination of the travel move then it was ooze during travel and you should increase the travel speed.

With a bowden cable retractions are far harder to deal with. In this video you will see it has no ooze. http://youtu.be/4MuHfeEu3Q0 The key is to not print too fast (actually not to high of volume per second), fast retracts and fast travel moves . To keep the volume per second down you can print at lower layer heights and/or print slower. To get the fastest retractions possible you can look at these instructionshttp://www.tantillus.org/Tutorials.html under calibrating retractions. That print is at 0.1mm layers, 30mm/s, travel moves at 180mm/s and 4.5mm of retraction at 45mm/s.

loughkb

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Re: Idea for (perfect?) retraction!
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2013, 09:12:10 AM »
Ah..  Ok.   Thanks for that reply, lots of info to digest...


You know, I had also read that retraction works better when faster, but I noticed something.

Now, I have a .5mm nozzle, and I'm pretty sure the larger diameter behaves differently than .4 or .375 nozzles.   I was retracting at 25mm/sec previously.  I would hear a very small *snap* sound when the prime movement followed the retraction.  It sounded exactly like a very small air bubble being popped.   I was retracting 2mm at the time, tried increasing that to 4mm.

At 4, the snap still occured and if drawing a bead directly on the bed, like in the first layer, I would observe the tiniest bit of a splatter around the beginning point of the bead.   I presumed that the fast retraction, was sucking so hard on the filament in the nozzle tip, that it was drawing a bit of air in past it.  That was popping back out when priming.

So, I slowed my retraction down to 7mm/sec and the result was no more *snap* sound, no more splatter, and the extrusion started clean on the glass, neither stretched nor blobbed.

So I'm wondering about the faster is better idea for retraction.  Probably applies to smaller nozzles where the density of the melted PLA is sufficient to keep air from getting past.

Anyway, thanks again for the reply,  I hadn't considered that the print being below the nozzle could be preventing ooze during retraction, only thought so before retraction.  

Sublime

Re: Idea for (perfect?) retraction!
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2013, 09:41:11 AM »
I print with a 0.5mm nozzle all the time. 

If you are using a direct extruder (not bowden) then you should only need 0.5 to 1mm of retraction. More can result in air getting in the hotend and oxidizing the plastic which then burns and leaves dark spots on your print and worst case can clog the nozzle.

PenskeGuy

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Re: Idea for (perfect?) retraction!
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2013, 12:52:34 AM »
Slow retraction over long traverses and/or as a method of cooling a small cross section have been discussed and are worthy of further examination.

http://kisslicer.com/forum/index.php?topic=121.msg1034#msg1034
http://kisslicer.com/forum/index.php?topic=803.msg5977#msg5977
http://kisslicer.com/forum/index.php?topic=358.msg2545#msg2545
http://kisslicer.com/forum/index.php?topic=208.msg1561#msg1561

Bowden cable machines, due to the inherent high hysteresis (slop) of a push/pull cable over long distances, require their own special circumstances but should be able to be accommodated in a firmware choice on the Printer tab.
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Sublime

Re: Idea for (perfect?) retraction!
« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2013, 02:49:47 PM »
Bowden cable machines, due to the inherent high hysteresis (slop) of a push/pull cable over long distances, require their own special circumstances but should be able to be accommodated in a firmware choice on the Printer tab.

It is true that a Bowden does exaggerate the issues with retracting. But all the same problems exist with a direct extruder as well. I have machines with both Bowden cables and direct and I can say anything that works on a bowden also works on a direct extruder, but it can not be said the opposite. Also all printers are going to move onto Bowdens soon as it allows for faster builds, higher precision because of the lower moving mass, you can have multiple extruders while adding very little to the moving mass and the multiple hotends on a Bowden machine take up less space then a single direct extruder.

But with all that said the slow retract while moving would require breaking the travel into multiple movements on a 5D machine because the E axis is synchronized with the X/Y move. To do so Kisslicer would have to be able to calculate the time it takes the extruder to retract x distance and match that line segment length to achieve the requested travel and retraction speed without tripping the firmware speed limits. I see this as being overly complicated.

PenskeGuy

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Re: Idea for (perfect?) retraction!
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2013, 06:45:45 PM »
Also all printers are going to move onto Bowdens soon

Bold statement; being so absolute.
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lotw

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Re: Idea for (perfect?) retraction!
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2013, 10:44:51 PM »
Also all printers are going to move onto Bowdens soon

Bold statement; being so absolute.

I agree with that.  Speed isn't that important if you loose quality.  I see more and more designs people have come up with for 3d printers and most actually don't use Bowden type.  It will probably be a good mix of both till something better comes along.
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Sublime

Re: Idea for (perfect?) retraction!
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2013, 07:51:59 AM »
Also all printers are going to move onto Bowdens soon

Bold statement; being so absolute.

I agree with that.  Speed isn't that important if you loose quality.  I see more and more designs people have come up with for 3d printers and most actually don't use Bowden type.  It will probably be a good mix of both till something better comes along.

Well it is true that a lot of bad bowdens have come out but so have a lot of bad direct extruder machines too. You can't blame bowdens when it is simply a poorly designed machine. Have you looked at any of the machines that sell for less then $600 almost all of them print like complete crap. Even expensive machines like Replicators print like crap and require a lot of tweaking to get decent results.

Have you ever seen a machine that without any calibration prints as well as an Ultimaker or Tantillus? I highly doubt it and yet you say "Speed isn't that important if you loose quality" but they produce ten times better prints with the same amount of calibration. Yes you can get a direct machine to print the same quality at lower speeds and ten times the calibration and work. But people produce better prints with good  bowdens sooner. Even poorly assembled properly designed bowden machines print well. Like if the belts are loose it does not show up nearly as much because of the low moving mass.

Your argument is like saying all cars are complete crap because all you have ever seen are Lada's and Reliant Robins. 

To Penske guys remark. You are right not every machine will go to a better system a lot will stay with the old brute force method instead of the eloquently engineered solutions . From now on when I type I will try and make everything more ambiguous for you instead of stating what I feel so you can't use my opinions as your only way of attacking.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2013, 07:56:06 AM by Sublime »

lotw

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Re: Idea for (perfect?) retraction!
« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2013, 02:11:35 PM »
No, what I am saying is they by have problems.  But I don't want to argue with you,since that's your main thing you do here.
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PenskeGuy

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Re: Idea for (perfect?) retraction!
« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2013, 02:20:37 PM »
From now on when I type I will try and make everything more ambiguous for you instead of stating what I feel so you can't use my opinions as your only way of attacking.

Geez.... If I wanted to attack, you'd know it. What is the point of that kind of statement? Stir the pot?

Let's face it, pal, you're obviously in love with Bowden cables because that is what the machine you designed and sell uses. I'm just saying that they are not the be-all, end-all of drive systems. Period. Get it? Lighten up, willya? Man.... I really love coming in here to get this type of acrimonious $#@%. Thanks for souring my day.
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Sublime

Re: Idea for (perfect?) retraction!
« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2013, 03:02:19 PM »
No, what I am saying is they by have problems.  But I don't want to argue with you,since that's your main thing you do here.

You made a statement about quality issues and I pointed out that you were wrong and gave evidence. Then you decided to not give any evidence of your claims. Does this mean you have no evidence to back your claims like I do. 

This is not an argument but a discussion of facts.

Sublime

Re: Idea for (perfect?) retraction!
« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2013, 03:09:39 PM »
From now on when I type I will try and make everything more ambiguous for you instead of stating what I feel so you can't use my opinions as your only way of attacking.

Geez.... If I wanted to attack, you'd know it. What is the point of that kind of statement? Stir the pot?

Let's face it, pal, you're obviously in love with Bowden cables because that is what the machine you designed and sell uses. I'm just saying that they are not the be-all, end-all of drive systems. Period. Get it? Lighten up, willya? Man.... I really love coming in here to get this type of acrimonious $#@%. Thanks for souring my day.

No you went out of your way to make a statement for no purpose other than to cause issues. If you had information to add to the conversation try adding it or stay the **** out of it. All you do is attack people on this board and it has been pointed out in the past by others.

Also you are so attached to commercialism and making money you assume things are being done for profit. Well guess what you are completely ******* wrong AGAIN. Like has been said before I closed my store to spend more time as a dad and have not had anything for sale for months and months. I do all of this 3D printing stuff including helping others to better our world. NOT FOR PROFIT.

The reason I promote Bowden cables is because they produce better prints point blank. So much better I would put them against any direct machine without worry of ever losing.


Note: Jonathan here...I removed some of the language.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2013, 04:05:53 PM by lonesock (Jonathan) »

orcinus

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Re: Idea for (perfect?) retraction!
« Reply #13 on: July 17, 2013, 06:17:31 PM »
Sheesh, guys... What's with all the tension here lately?

Anyway, back on track, wasn't this *exactly* what OPS did in Repetier firmware?
It would start a retract as soon as it started the travel move (well, it was adjustable, it'd do a user defined percentage of the retract while standing still, then complete the rest while traveling), then reprime once it reaches its destination.

I gave it a try and it was a mess. For some reason, the reprime would *always* end up with blobbing and there was sometimes a hysteresis to it causing the nozzle to actually start extruding a bit after the reprime finished and the printing move already started, so sometimes you'd get a gap and then a blob. And that's without a bowden.

Now, the key thing here is, i'm not sure if it's a downside of the concept, or an issue with the implementation, considering OPS was ditched in Repetier 0.8x, pending a total rewrite.

lotw

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Re: Idea for (perfect?) retraction!
« Reply #14 on: July 17, 2013, 11:42:59 PM »
Sublime always likes to argue.  All I was saying is both methods have their own problems which is why they both will be around till something better comes along.

Sheesh, guys... What's with all the tension here lately?

Anyway, back on track, wasn't this *exactly* what OPS did in Repetier firmware?
It would start a retract as soon as it started the travel move (well, it was adjustable, it'd do a user defined percentage of the retract while standing still, then complete the rest while traveling), then reprime once it reaches its destination.

I gave it a try and it was a mess. For some reason, the reprime would *always* end up with blobbing and there was sometimes a hysteresis to it causing the nozzle to actually start extruding a bit after the reprime finished and the printing move already started, so sometimes you'd get a gap and then a blob. And that's without a bowden.

Now, the key thing here is, i'm not sure if it's a downside of the concept, or an issue with the implementation, considering OPS was ditched in Repetier 0.8x, pending a total rewrite.
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Sublime

Re: Idea for (perfect?) retraction!
« Reply #15 on: July 18, 2013, 08:35:11 AM »
Sublime always likes to argue.  All I was saying is both methods have their own problems which is why they both will be around till something better comes along.

I don't know where you get this from. If you ask around I am sure you will see that I have helped more people get printing with Kisslicer and a RepRap then anyone else on the forum. I get PM's thanking me for such good help. I get PM's thanking me for the way I write. 

I never argued with you. I replied to your comment that fast bowdens did not print well.
Quote
Speed isn't that important if you loose quality
I was not responding to your opinion of what the future would hold because I believed you have the right to your own opinion. I then pointed out the reasons why I thought Bowdens were better because I thought you wanted to talk about them. Maybe you are unaware but when you join a conversation you may be expected to take it further than a twitter size statement. Also if you feel I am like this why would you antagonize me instead of staying out or putting me in my place? If I am wrong then prove it to me and I will concede. But as it is no one has ever been able to prove that a direct extruder can print better than a well designed Bowden machine at speed.

ShawnT98027

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Re: Idea for (perfect?) retraction!... Two Big Heads
« Reply #16 on: July 18, 2013, 02:21:17 PM »
Sublime and PenskeGuy who are you guys, resident judges and experts ?... OMG

Not wanting to make any enemies... but the big egos need to chill, and realize nobody likes them or their attitudes.  SUBLIME IS THE WORST OFFENDER ACROSS ALL THE BLOGS !!!... Ditto "Loves to Argue" even when he is wrong, but he can't see through his perceived god like expertise.

I have read a lot of both your posts... OFTEN you are both on target to fix post problems and help people out. BUT I TOO have seen a lot of your BAD ADVISE ALSO that plainly does not work and runs people around in circles chasing their tails. Shame on both of you for declaring yourselves the 'Know-It-Alls" as your attitudes always reveal.

I knew it was just a matter of time before some of the two biggest heads around met up... Funny !

Often they are many follower type of people who will idolize a few prolific posters elevating them to know-it-all like status/judge status/the god status). You may notice (as I have) many of the posted problems rarely gets solved; seems some people just like to chat, blog and post about the same old problem that has been already solved by other people.

And don't both of these prolific posters have something better to do (other than monitoring and posting to blogs). Hmm !

Sublime, thank you for the entertainment. %@@hole

P.S. You could not even give me a Plastic Tantilus Printer or Bowden Extruder.  No Real Precision or Durable Machines are made of Plastic or Wood, and Direct Drive will always be bettter, It's Physics.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2013, 02:34:21 PM by ShawnT98027 »

Sublime

Re: Idea for (perfect?) retraction!... Two Big Heads
« Reply #17 on: July 18, 2013, 02:36:09 PM »
Sublime and PenskeGuy who are you guys, resident judges and experts ?... OMG

Not wanting to make any enemies... but the big egos need to chill, and realize nobody likes them or their attitudes.  SUBLIME IS THE WORST OFFENDER ACROSS ALL THE BLOGS !!!... Ditto "Loves to Argue" even when he is wrong, but he can't see through his perceived god like expertise.

I have read a lot of both your posts... OFTEN you are both on target to fix post problems and help people out. BUT I TOO have seen a lot of your BAD ADVISE ALSO that plainly does not work and runs people around in circles chasing their tails. Shame on both of you for declaring yourselves the 'Know-It-Alls" as your attitudes always reveal.

I knew it was just a matter of time before some of the two biggest heads around met up... Funny !

Often they are many follower type of people who will idolize a few prolific posters elevating them to know-it-all like status/judge status/the god status). You may notice (as I have) many of the posted problems rarely gets solved; seems some people just like to chat, blog and post about the same old problem that has been already solved by other people.

And don't both of these prolific posters have something better to do (other than monitoring and posting to blogs). Hmm !

Sublime, thank you for the entertainment. %@@@hole

Shawn you were so wrong the only time I have ever come across you it is unbelievable. http://forums.reprap.org/read.php?262,209351

Are you still convinced that black plastic has a lower density then other colors. Can not perceive the fact that the math says you are completely wrong and must have a mechanical issue.

Can you please prove yourself instead of getting into fights about things you know nothing about. Please post a few links to times I ran people around in circles. Please post a few links to times that you actually were able to help others. All you do is make demands of othershttp://kisslicer.com/forum/index.php?topic=163.msg5507#msg5507

Please either be willing to put your knowledge where your mouth is and prove what you say or shut the F up. I am always willing to prove everything I say and will not back down to assholes like you.

If anyone wants actual help with Kisslicer from now on they will have to PM me or wait for Jonathan to respond since no one else answers questions and when others do they give advise like your un-thought out answer of turn of the flow for black.

orcinus

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Re: Idea for (perfect?) retraction!
« Reply #18 on: July 18, 2013, 04:11:06 PM »
I'm no mod, but guys, how about you take personal arguments (as in arguing) to PMs instead of forum threads?
Just a friendly suggestion. Less noise, and i can guarantee you, you'd get less misunderstandings and less flaming that way.

Sometimes, a public discussion can heat things up faster and more than is necessary.

PenskeGuy

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Re: Idea for (perfect?) retraction!
« Reply #19 on: July 19, 2013, 05:08:35 PM »
What is it about the 3D printing arena, anyway? Seems to bring out the worst attitudes and self appointed judges, more than in any other area I've experienced. Astounding.

"It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt."
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loughkb

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Re: Idea for (perfect?) retraction!
« Reply #20 on: July 20, 2013, 09:56:08 AM »
Well that was a mess.   I find most arguments to be silly.   But back to real information if we may?


I have done a series of tests this morning.   I built a model that had 7 1mm thick by 1cm tall blades in line.  The gap between each blade varied, so retraction was necessary between each, with different travel distances each time.

I printed it at a series of different retraction values....

.5mm retraction at 7mm/sec
1mm retraction at 7mm/sec
3mm retraction at 7mm/sec
4mm retraction at 7mm/sec

They all had blob 'trees' growing up between the blades of equal amounts.  No improvement at any speed.   The actual blades had cleaner edges at .5mm retraction, so I printed one more at a higher retract speed.

.8mm retraction at 15mm/sec.

Still had blob trees between the blades, but the cleanest edges to the blades.

So it seems that retraction distance and speed make no difference in the amount of ooze that happens during travel.  

I'm beginning to wonder about the internal geometry of the nozzle.  At the end, it reduces from the 3mm channel to the .5mm diameter, but what about that reduction? How gradual is it?  Does that make a difference in the effect of retraction?   I have to think there must be an optimal design to that.  Maybe mine is machined with too abrupt of a reduction.  Maybe more taper is better...   Who knows, hard to tell without special tools and maybe a microscope.

I've seen video of a machine printing a series of blades like this with no ooze during travel, and I can't figure how that was done.   Nothing I change helps.  The bit of ooze remains the same regardless of retraction speed or distance.

I'll take a picture of my test samples and upload it.

Kevin.


* Screenshot from 2013-07-20 14:20:16.png (534.2 kB, 1036x417 - viewed 42 times.)
« Last Edit: July 20, 2013, 10:21:40 AM by loughkb »

Rasle500

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Re: Idea for (perfect?) retraction!
« Reply #21 on: July 20, 2013, 10:28:46 AM »


.8mm retraction at 15mm/sec.


Kevin.

If I use a retraction < 3 mm I will get strings and blobs.
Normally I set it to 3 mm retraction (suck) and 3.1 mm prime at 15-35 mm/s

With these settings I get no strings and no blobs at all.

Using 3 mm filament.

/Michael

Edit: sorry, did not see you already tried 3 mm retraction.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2013, 11:32:47 PM by Rasle500 »
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PenskeGuy

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Re: Idea for (perfect?) retraction!
« Reply #22 on: July 20, 2013, 04:15:09 PM »
I've seen these a lot. Usually, they grow on the way to the next part section. IOW, they build going in. Thought it was the other way around for a while but observation proved otherwise. On one set of parts, it was Infill that was causing it. Switching the slice to only Loops cured them. Apparently, at least in this instance--with Infill being the last operation on the section prior to a traverse, it wasn't cleaning the nozzle enough before leaving.

On another set of parts having only Loops (a hollow cone with number set to 2) they grow on leaving the first cone and entering the second; outside on the former and inside on the latter.

Wipe doesn't seem to make much difference. Lower temp does, but I haven't been able to be totally rid of them on some parts. Others have no problem with this. I have a low 3" dia. dome that uses Jitter over 360 deg. and they don't form. Gotta be a common denominator here somewhere but I have yet to arrive upon one.

What are your Min Jump and Trigger values?
« Last Edit: July 20, 2013, 04:20:16 PM by PenskeGuy »
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loughkb

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Re: Idea for (perfect?) retraction!
« Reply #23 on: July 21, 2013, 04:41:28 AM »
I'll have to check Jump and Trigger,  but it does trigger retraction on travels over 5mm, so maybe that answers the question.

If I understand jitter angle setting, it causes loops to start at different places to avoid seams forming?   I had a print job to do with multiples of the same part.  I was having trouble with blobs forming at one corner of the part.  This is related to something I see with jobs done with kisslicer that doesn't happen with jobs from other slicers, may be a bug.

Any travel over 5mm should trigger a retraction, and it nearly always does.   However, there will always be one travel move that will not trigger a retraction, even though it's over a long distance.   In the pic of the attached parts, it's a move from one corner to the opposite corner.  No retraction, so there's almost always a blob tree forming there.

I can't think of any logical reason why it wouldn't retract for that move, it retracts on all other moves over 5mm.

I set jitter to 45 degrees for this print of 5 of these parts.   I didn't see it starting loops at different positions on different layers though, it always started on one corner.  However,  with retraction at 4mm suck and 4.01mm prime, I didn't get any blobs this time!   In fact, all 5 parts came out perfect!   

They are covers for a small PCB a friend has designed for a project.   Three LED's of different colors, cycle through color ranges via a small micro-controller.  It's a little mood light.  He needed a cover for the PCB.  This snaps on the board perfectly with the LEDs poking through the holes.  The flexible tab (triangle shape) sits over a microswitch that lets you change modes.


* parts.jpg (109.35 kB, 1024x522 - viewed 17 times.)

orcinus

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Re: Idea for (perfect?) retraction!
« Reply #24 on: July 21, 2013, 12:38:23 PM »
I'm beginning to wonder about the internal geometry of the nozzle. 

Nozzle geometry has quite a bit of effect on oozing.
From my (admittedly limited) experience with different nozzles, the smaller the orifice relative to the melt zone, the more ooze you get independently of retraction settings (*not* ooze overall).

Or, in other words, the smaller the nozzle, the less effect retract has.

My theory is that, due to dynamics of molten plastic with a very tiny cross section and a very turbulent flow, there's simply no way to suck it in efficiently fast enough. The molten plastic already in the nozzle orifice resists the backpressure and a kind of cavitation bubble forms, pops and - well, nothing happens.

What i did notice is that retraction speed sometime has an effect in such cases.
Try lowering the retract speed (my guess is that might help, but try the opposite as well).

orcinus

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Re: Idea for (perfect?) retraction!
« Reply #25 on: July 21, 2013, 12:40:22 PM »
Oh, and it depends on the plastic stock too. Greatly.

I had a roll of PLA once that oozed like crazy even at 180 degrees C.
It was totally liquid at 180 C. Unlike most PLA, that you can pinch off with tweezers and just shear off the nozzle orifice, this one would always leave a thin string spanning between the tweezers and the orifice.

See if changing to a different filament helps.

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Re: Idea for (perfect?) retraction!
« Reply #26 on: July 21, 2013, 02:20:18 PM »
If I understand jitter angle setting, it causes loops to start at different places to avoid seams forming?

Correct.

Any travel over 5mm should trigger a retraction, and it nearly always does.   However, there will always be one travel move that will not trigger a retraction, even though it's over a long distance.   In the pic of the attached parts, it's a move from one corner to the opposite corner.  No retraction, so there's almost always a blob tree forming there. I can't think of any logical reason why it wouldn't retract for that move, it retracts on all other moves over 5mm.

Which version of KS are you running? Here's what used to happen:

If the long travel is all "inside" the part (does not cross the perimeter) then KISSlicer will not trigger a destring operation.  In the latest Beta on the forums, you can now specify a "Trigger" distance...any jump longer than this will do a destring retract / prime, even if the whole move is inside the part.

Jonathan

Sounds like the Trigger isn't influencing the Perimeter Crossing code.

I set jitter to 45 degrees for this print of 5 of these parts.   I didn't see it starting loops at different positions on different layers though, it always started on one corner.

Must be a later one or Jitter wouldn't be present. How are the parts grouped on the bed, one STL with multiples set in KS or a gang STL?

EDIT: Just tried a test with the Y Bearing Mount that I repaired for karabas yesterday:

http://kisslicer.com/forum/index.php?topic=819.msg6125#msg6125

and grouping by either method makes no difference. With Jitter set to 360, they all start in the same random positions, as if in synchronized swimming. However, this part has thin, high aspect ratio sections in the upper levels. Once the layers reach this altitude and the aspect ratio passes some threshold, the start point only appears at alternating corners around the "circle". That you have Jitter set to 45 will make it select one corner every time.

EDIT II: Just took a longer look at the slices to see where the aspect ratio comes into the mix and see that, if there are no curved Perimeters, Jitter selects corners--no matter what. I thought that the answer to this was in two Alphas that are here on the forum:

http://kisslicer.com/forum/index.php?topic=754.msg5661#msg5661
http://kisslicer.com/forum/index.php?topic=759.msg5732#msg5732

Win32, with other OS versions farther down in the 2nd thread. Beware that some other stuff may be broken in these, so use at your own risk.

BUT Jitter still only selects corners on non-quasi-circular Perimeter sections. No matter what the Layer Start angle is set to, only non-straight paths show intermediate start points. This is due to it selecting a random circle segment as a start point. (Circles are chains of small straight paths.) On rectilinear paths, there is only one start point per side, so there's nothing else to select. On a rectangle, all you get are four changes of direction. With 360 deg Jitter that translates to four random start points. With 45 deg Jitter; one.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2013, 04:18:59 PM by PenskeGuy »
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loughkb

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Re: Idea for (perfect?) retraction!
« Reply #27 on: July 22, 2013, 03:54:39 AM »
Ah, so the jitter value is like a range around the circle wherein it's allowed to randomize the starting point for the loop, starting at the end of a segment.  That makes sense.   So I can't see a reason why not to always use 360 there.

Regarding the travel within the bounds of the part not triggering retraction, I am running the current version, so perhaphs this bug is not yet fixed.   That missing retraction is the only thing that causes me any grief on parts presently, so hopefully it will be corrected soon.

Back to retraction.  I was thinking about the physics of it last night.   For suction to be the operative factor, a perfect seal would need to exist around the filament within the feed tube of the nozzle.  Obviously, we don't have that, friction in that case would make feeding a problem.  You would need a nozzle design with a set of O rings near the top of the tube to facilitate suction.

So that leaves the physical viscosity of the filament from the solid to the melted part in the nozzle end.    Retraction at the speeds we use, most likely stretches the fluid, rather than pull it back.   I wonder if we should go the other way on speed and go really slow over a short distance, so that the viscosity of the fluid part will draw back the molten material.

I'm going to try an experiment tonight, printing my multi-blade test object with .5mm of retraction at 1mm/sec, and maybe even slower, just to see what happens.   I'll post the results if they are remarkable.

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Re: Idea for (perfect?) retraction!
« Reply #28 on: July 22, 2013, 04:47:18 AM »
Actually,  the more thought I give it, the more convinced I am that the ultimate answer here might be some kind of mostly air-tight seal at the point where the filament enters the feed tube of the hotend.   If air can't get in, then ooze simply can't happen.  External atmospheric pressure would prevent it, only heat expansion of the material would allow any to ooze.

My hotend has a 16mm barrel that mounts into an aluminum plate sandwiched between the extruder and the carriage.  The top of the barrel is flat, aside from the 3mm opening that is the feed tube down to the nozzle.

I am going to attempt to make a 2mm thick neoprene washer with a 2.8mm hole in the middle.   Maybe I'll go 2.9mm on the hole.   Glue this to the top of the barrel so that the filament passes through the hole in the washer as it enters the tube. This should provide an airtight seal around the filament with very little drag.   I'm sure the tube down to the nozzle is air-tight, and this might provide enough of a seal to eliminate the leakage of air into the tube from the top.

That should eliminate ooze completely, and let retraction work at a very small distance.  Retraction would only be needed to compensate for the expansion of the melting material at the end where it encounters the heat.

Could it be this simple?   Imagine if ooze is completely eliminated, how clean your prints could be!  Ultra fine layer heights might even be possible due to much better control over how much material is being extruded.  

This could be an Eureka! moment.

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Re: Idea for (perfect?) retraction!
« Reply #29 on: July 22, 2013, 11:30:19 AM »
Well I'm besides myself.    

I spent the afternoon building a neoprene seal for the top of the hotend barrel.   The seal is quite good, it makes the feed tube airtight once the filament is in.  Retraction should cause a vacuum.  In fact, while loading filament, as it was being pushed down the tube, I could see a few air bubbles pop out the nozzle.  So retraction should be causing an actual vacuum and suction.

Yet....   Ooze seems unaffected.    I just don't understand why.

puzzled.

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Re: Idea for (perfect?) retraction!
« Reply #30 on: July 22, 2013, 01:01:29 PM »
Actually,  the more thought I give it, the more convinced I am that the ultimate answer here might be some kind of mostly air-tight seal at the point where the filament enters the feed tube of the hotend.   If air can't get in, then ooze simply can't happen.  External atmospheric pressure would prevent it, only heat expansion of the material would allow any to ooze.

And gravity.

I agree on the stretch vs. pull concept but do not agree on the sealing off of the tube to effect a better retraction. Air is way more compressible/un-compressible than a hot plastic and you'll only be creating a momentary vacuum around the solid filament within the tube. Yes, there may be some additional negative pressure transferred to the hot filament way down in the nozzle bore but I'd wager that it couldn't be measured.
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PenskeGuy

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Re: Idea for (perfect?) retraction!
« Reply #31 on: July 22, 2013, 01:04:40 PM »
In fact, while loading filament, as it was being pushed down the tube, I could see a few air bubbles pop out the nozzle.

And this can cause problems during extrusion. If the air has no easy way to escape out the back, should a bubble develop for any reason, it must to exit through the nozzle and ruin your print.
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orcinus

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Re: Idea for (perfect?) retraction!
« Reply #32 on: July 22, 2013, 01:58:27 PM »
Here's a thought experiment for you.

Imagine having a straw. You dunk it into a glass of water, plug one end with your finger and pull it out. The water stays inside. You release your finger and the water flows out.

Now imagine having a 10 cm diameter pipe. You dunk it into a pot of water, press your palm tightly against the top end and pull it out. What happens?

Finally, imagine having that same straw from the beginning. Instead of water, you pour honey into the glass and repeat the straw experiment. What's going to happen when you pull the straw out of the glass with your finger plugging the top?

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Re: Idea for (perfect?) retraction!
« Reply #33 on: July 22, 2013, 05:03:31 PM »
Take it easy guys there's room for both types are extruders I like direct type but the machine has to be stronger to take the weight to accelerate and decelerate their pros and cons to each

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Re: Idea for (perfect?) retraction!
« Reply #34 on: July 23, 2013, 04:28:56 AM »
Orcinus:   Yeah, I arrived at that thought last night.  The molten plastic is not fluid enough for surface tension to come into play, so it just allows air to move past it and continues to ooze.


I'll be removing the seal tonight.


P. Guy,   I did an experiment before installing the seal with really slow retraction.  I posited that retracion is pulling the molten plastic upwards from the nozzle tip, and that faster retraction just stretches the molten part as much as moves it.  So a much slower retraction would work better at pulling it.

It's true to a point.   I retracted half a mm at 1mm/sec and saw a slight improvement in my multi blade test object.  There was about half the blob tree effect.  

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Re: Idea for (perfect?) retraction!
« Reply #35 on: July 23, 2013, 06:46:52 AM »
It's true to a point.   I retracted half a mm at 1mm/sec and saw a slight improvement in my multi blade test object.  There was about half the blob tree effect.

Hah!

What i did notice is that retraction speed sometime has an effect in such cases.
Try lowering the retract speed (my guess is that might help, but try the opposite as well).

PenskeGuy

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Re: Idea for (perfect?) retraction!
« Reply #36 on: July 23, 2013, 03:14:58 PM »
OK. Just witnessed something I've never seen before, and it points to the tree growth phenomenon and could also be the reason I can't minimize the layer start blobs on Jittered paths.

First layer on a 3" cylinder printing with .25mm Layers, 3 Loops completes, destring 1.5S/1P, 4mm wipe, Z-lift 0.125mm, travel to other side of circle due to Jitter @ 360, drops a dotted line of tiny blobs on the glass as it goes. Actually were alternating sized dots, exactly spaced:

O . O . O . O . O . O . O . O . O . O . O . O . O . O . O

Large dots are about .5mm-.6mm in diameter and from the side are pretty spherical; although the shot doesn't convey that well. The acceleration as it sped up & slowed is visible in the pitch near the ends. ABS temp @ 235, so it's not exactly runny by any means. This is the tenth in a row of the same part, printed with temps between 230 and 240. Print using the same 235 temp that followed right after it did not do this.

* dot-line.jpg (84.63 kB, 800x517 - viewed 15 times.)
« Last Edit: July 23, 2013, 07:21:57 PM by PenskeGuy »
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orcinus

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Re: Idea for (perfect?) retraction!
« Reply #37 on: July 23, 2013, 07:30:30 PM »
That's a common first layer error.

Those dots are actually what comes out of your extruder at all times - the extrusion actually pulses. The only reason it's smooth is because:

a) the fluid dynamics smooth it out, and
b) the dots normally get smeared over the glass or previous layer by the nozzle.

Seen it happen tons of times.
There are two and a half main causes - extrusion speed too low relative to head motion (cause 1), extrusion width to height ratio set wrong, causing the extrusion to overstretch and snap back into a droplet (cause 1.5), or Z=0 set wrong, i.e. too far from bed for that particular temperature/viscosity and w/h combo.

I'd try lowering your Z0 by 0.1 as a first measure. You might've lost a step over the course of lots of sequential prints without homing.

orcinus

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Re: Idea for (perfect?) retraction!
« Reply #38 on: July 23, 2013, 07:38:14 PM »
Just remembered.
I also got that once due to bed not cleaned meticulously enough between two prints.

There was slight residue of previous print's first solid infill left on the glass. What should've been a line ended up a dotted path due to uneven adhesion in the pattern of old print's infill.

Edit: wait, that was a travel move? Sorry, i'm a bit slow, it's 5:40 am here and I haven't gone to bed yet. In that case, not so weird either. What I wrote applies to ooze as well, except ooze is even less smooth because there's no pressure to smooth it out. In any case, not at all weird if the ooze diameter is smaller than the layer height.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2013, 07:42:11 PM by orcinus »

PenskeGuy

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Re: Idea for (perfect?) retraction!
« Reply #39 on: July 23, 2013, 09:04:22 PM »
That's a common first layer error.

Those dots are actually what comes out of your extruder at all times - the extrusion actually pulses. The only reason it's smooth is because:

a) the fluid dynamics smooth it out, and
b) the dots normally get smeared over the glass or previous layer by the nozzle.

I'm gonna differ with you on that one. This is a direct helix lead screw feed. There's nothing in the system, or the hydraulics of the hot viscous filament, to cause discreet dots; as opposed to a smooth flow. Yes, there may be threshold line resistance created by the narrow nozzle bore that might cause osculation but certainly not to this degree that there is 3mm+ between deposits.
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PenskeGuy

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Re: Idea for (perfect?) retraction!
« Reply #40 on: July 23, 2013, 09:12:32 PM »
Edit: wait, that was a travel move? Sorry, i'm a bit slow, it's 5:40 am here and I haven't gone to bed yet.

No prob. I pull all-nighters all the time.

In that case, not so weird either. What I wrote applies to ooze as well, except ooze is even less smooth because there's no pressure to smooth it out. In any case, not at all weird if the ooze diameter is smaller than the layer height.

Larger, by a factor of at least two. Letting the extruder sit above the bed at the print temp undisturbed for minutes at a time generates near zero ooze; certainly not the volume that this aggregates to. This happened in a less than two second traverse, so something caused it other than what is normal operation. And, it has only happened once in a hundred prints or so. I'd just like to find out what situation caused it, as this may lead me to a cure for the blob trees that, thankfully, happen infrequently. When they do, however,  it is certainly vexing.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2013, 09:14:16 PM by PenskeGuy »
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loughkb

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Re: Idea for (perfect?) retraction!
« Reply #41 on: July 24, 2013, 03:41:51 AM »
Removed my seal last night and apparently got some fragment of neoprene debris into the system.  Can't extrude too much before the nozzle clogs.  Found that a small bit of a spring, when straightened out, is a good strong wire to push up into the nozzle and clear it.  However, I'm having no joy at removing the particle.

I've tried pushing the wire up in there to push the clog up into the molten plastic, then letting the whole thing cool to around 120C before slowly pulling the filament out of the top, hoping that the particle would be embedded in the filament.  But no luck.  Start printing and it clogs again eventually.

Nightmare!   I guess that will teach me to fart around with hot end experiments.

Have any of you had a persistent clog?  If so, how did you resolve it?

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Re: Idea for (perfect?) retraction!
« Reply #42 on: July 24, 2013, 09:33:59 AM »
Larger, by a factor of at least two. Letting the extruder sit above the bed at the print temp undisturbed for minutes at a time generates near zero ooze; certainly not the volume that this aggregates to. This happened in a less than two second traverse, so something caused it other than what is normal operation. And, it has only happened once in a hundred prints or so. I'd just like to find out what situation caused it, as this may lead me to a cure for the blob trees that, thankfully, happen infrequently. When they do, however,  it is certainly vexing.

In that case, it might be caused by moisture.
I've had steam pops that were extremely regular and periodic a few times (the pressure in the nozzle would build up as a steam bubble expands, until a critical point where it sputters out a little blob; then more plastic flows into nozzle in the created void and the process repeats).

Have you tried a different filament stock? Or does this happen too rarely to diagnose anything with certainty?

PenskeGuy

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Re: Idea for (perfect?) retraction!
« Reply #43 on: July 24, 2013, 01:46:52 PM »
As I said, only happened once in 100+ prints. The blob trees really don't seem to be created by steam, and that is the artifact I am interested in eliminating. This dot line looked similar to the action seen when the blob trees form, so am examining the dynamics to see what might stick out as being common. PLA is known to be hygroscopic. ABS, not so much.
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orcinus

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Re: Idea for (perfect?) retraction!
« Reply #44 on: July 24, 2013, 03:52:56 PM »
It's a longshot, i agree.

By the way, nearly *all* the polymers used in FDM are hygroscopic, and pretty strongly hygroscopic to boot.
ABS, PLA, nylon, PVA, you name it - it soaks up moisture like crazy.

PLA is somewhat more hygroscopic than ABS, but ABS is by no means resistant to moisture.

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Re: Idea for (perfect?) retraction!
« Reply #45 on: July 24, 2013, 03:55:34 PM »
Speaking of weird...

I'm currently leading a failing battle with some gray PLA i had lying around.
It used to print just fine with support. All of a sudden, i can't get it to print support *at all*.

Support simply doesn't seem to want to stick to previous layer of support and the whole structure crumbles after a few dozen layers. Meanwhile, regular layers print just fine. And the exact same thing happens whether i'm using stacked infill/support or not.

Very very weird.

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Re: Idea for (perfect?) retraction!
« Reply #46 on: July 24, 2013, 05:32:46 PM »
That's why we have a dehydrator in the shop.
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orcinus

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Re: Idea for (perfect?) retraction!
« Reply #47 on: July 24, 2013, 06:09:11 PM »
Ah, no, it's not soaked. It was in an airtight box kept at a constant 30% HR with plenty of silica gel serving as a buffer. It's something else.

I've figured out the cure, but not the cause.
The cure is - drop the infill extrusion width. For some reason, 0.35 doesn't work with this particular filament for support. 0.3 works tho.

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Re: Idea for (perfect?) retraction!
« Reply #48 on: July 24, 2013, 08:27:15 PM »
I was responding to the hygroscopicity of plastics and the fact that it's not a new concept here.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2013, 08:29:42 PM by PenskeGuy »
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Re: Idea for (perfect?) retraction!
« Reply #49 on: July 27, 2013, 04:36:19 AM »
Back up and printing again.  Removed a massive clog by 'fishing' down into the nozzle while hot with some nylon trimmer line.   Came up with a simple cleaner to prevent future problems.   

Though you guys might get a chuckle out of it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-qpIHkDQLc


PenskeGuy

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Re: Idea for (perfect?) retraction!
« Reply #50 on: July 27, 2013, 01:37:42 PM »
Pretty cool, or hot, as the case may be. I'll have to devise something for the 3DT. Probably will attach it to the input end of the feed tubes. Currently, I just wipe the filament clean periodically. We do cat rescue, so fur is a part of our lives--especially at certain times of the year.

Thanks for the tip.

Looks like those cases are printing fine, now.
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cnc dick

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Re: Idea for (perfect?) retraction!
« Reply #51 on: July 27, 2013, 04:10:32 PM »
I use a piece of hard felt with a hole drilled in it slightly smaller than filament that was part of a hammer for base kickdrum

orcinus

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Re: Idea for (perfect?) retraction!
« Reply #52 on: July 30, 2013, 06:48:19 PM »
Wouldn't call that a "hack" considering the neatness :)

I use a wad of toilet paper folded many times over and afixed to the filament with a zip tie.

loughkb

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Re: Idea for (perfect?) retraction!
« Reply #53 on: August 29, 2013, 10:29:43 AM »
Back on the subject of retraction, I've found something that improves the effectiveness of retraction measurably.

In the firmware,  I'm running Marlin,  there are acceleration settings.  I've already smoothed the operation of my machine tremendously by decreasing the max acceleration values for X and Y, but I noticed that there is also a max acceleration setting for E, the extruder.

I'd seen discussion and video from the ultimaker guys about big improvement by adding acceleration to the extruder for retracts.  It makes sense.  If the retraction move is 'soft' at the start and end of the retraction, there's less stretching of the filament and more movement down in the melt zone.

I reduced the max accel valude for E from 300 to 150.  You can just perceive the effect in the motion of the exturder and the sound it makes during retraction.  It sounds much smoother.   And, it does make retraction more effective,  more than a bit.  In fact, it's the single most effective change I've made in improving the quality of my prints.

You should try it.

Kevin

mgelinas

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Re: Idea for (perfect?) retraction!
« Reply #54 on: September 22, 2013, 12:03:00 AM »
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hardis

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Re: Idea for (perfect?) retraction!
« Reply #55 on: November 10, 2013, 05:28:26 PM »
As soon as you move the differential pressure results in plastic coming out of the hotend. This is made worse on a machine with a Bowden cable. Also what you propose is impossible on a machine with firmware retraction.

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