Seam hiding

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Lon Varscsak

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Jan 11, 2014, 9:09:09 PM1/11/14
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Hey all,

KISSlicer is my favorite slicer, but I get a pronounced seam when printing objects.  If I change the Jitter to 360, I get little blobs all over my print.  

What are strategies to eliminate this?  In Simplify3D, I get no seam or blobs (but I don't use this slicer much because it's top and bottom fills are horrid).

-Lon

funBart

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Jan 11, 2014, 9:27:20 PM1/11/14
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Hi, yes the jitter is to spread the startpoints on each layer. Jitter of 0 results in a vertical seam. I never had really blobs as you describe, but you can sea the seam when looking through a magnifying glass. (maybe I have bad eyes ;-)

things I can think of:
  • how many loops are set?  On the style tab: have you set Loops from inside to Perimeter? When not: maybe a to large amount of prime can cause it (same with only one loop set).
  • have you set the same retraction and prime (on the material tab) as in Simplify3D (and turned it on(wipe and De-string) on the Style tab).? Maybe to much prime is causing it? 
  • finally: there is a setting on the Style tab called "seam hiding" I have never used it, but IMO is that probably what you need (when set the above ok). When set to 1 the perimeter path is going a little (I think 1 extrusion width) to the inside of the model at the end of the path.
Maybe others have more ideas.
Bart

post of the old forum: 

I real discussion as well regarding this as well:

the default up until now was to have the perimeter start and stop inside the print. But the extra extrusion it was making on this little overlap (looks like an arrow in the gcode preview) was leaving a bump for some people so Lonesock made it adjustable. To my knowledge the amount it overlapped is calculated based on the extrusion width internally and the slider determines the amount of this internally calculated amount is used. 1.0 being 100% of the originally calculated amount, 0.5 being 50% etc. 0.0 is equal to the way Skeinforge, Cura, Slic3r, Repsnapper, RepRap Java host etc all have the perimeter end just butt up to the perimeter start.

FWIW, at first I didn't like this feature (just in principle) but after tweaking my calibration and deciding to increase temp to compensate for a little increase speed I noticed the seams were no longer as nice as I'd like them to be so I gave this feature a go today @ 0.5.

 It made a real positive impact. Especially on layers with sparse infill. On layers with solid infill depending on the angle of the outer perimeter it sometimes contributed to the bump a little but overall I think ints a good feature to use on some prints along with wipe.

funBart

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Jan 11, 2014, 9:33:56 PM1/11/14
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opic: Blobbing at perimeter transition point  (Read 1890 times)

Sublime

Re: Blobbing at perimeter transition point
« Reply #27 on: June 30, 2013, 10:04:14 AM »
Quote
I have found for a J-head you want around 3 cubic mm of plastic per second.

That seems insanely low.  Doesn't that limit you to pretty low printing speeds at tall-ish layer heights, like 0.25mm?

It means at a layer height of 0.15 which is my default (only go up to 0.25 for draft prints and even then it is unlikely) I print at around 40mm/s and when I want to go faster at the cost of blobs and possible strings I simply turn up the speed via the lcd which is then limited by the firmware at 150mm/s. Beyond that the quality and reliability drops and you end up doing reprints which take longer than doing it at a safe speed in the first place.

I have a few machines so time is never a concern. Even on my largest machine that prints 100x100x215 it takes less then a day to print something the size of the entire build area.

I also tend to print either small or complex things that need the time to cool so again printing faster is not really an option. My calculator also has settings for the size of the object and if you select x-large it will increase the flow to as high as 8 but never above.

I did the whole printing fast thing three years ago when I first started reprep (check my youtube page) and it was great but then I designed and built Tantillus and saw the possible quality I started slowing down to ensure the final product. Now when I look back at all those old projects (printed lathe, etc.) it is almost embarrassing to see the quality. I would actually say they were about the quality as the average print nowadays. It was great for back then but not compared to what is possible.

I will be posting something in the print gallery next that shows the complexity I am printing.

crispy1

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Re: Blobbing at perimeter transition point
« Reply #26 on: June 30, 2013, 09:43:55 AM »
Quote
I have found for a J-head you want around 3 cubic mm of plastic per second.

That seems insanely low.  Doesn't that limit you to pretty low printing speeds at tall-ish layer heights, like 0.25mm?  I've upped my max flow rate limiters in KISS to something like 80, to keep it from interfering with printing at high speeds.

On a related note, I'm beginning to think that we should stop doing retractions in the slicer, and improve how the firmware controls the pressure in the hotend.  Because I have found that the optimal retraction amount is highly dependent on the flow rate of plastic through the nozzle.

Sublime

Re: Blobbing at perimeter transition point
« Reply #25 on: June 30, 2013, 09:14:47 AM »
Here's an interesting experiment, if you don't mind running it.  Calculate how much your flow rate of plastic has decreased by decreasing your bead width.  Then, increase your print speed by a corresponding amount so that your flow rate is back to what it was in your first picture.

The reason I'm suggesting this is I've noticed that at lower flow rates the blobs are less prominent.  So in order to get a good comparison we need the flow rate to be held constant.

That is exactly what my calculator does. If you are trying to push out to much plastic per second regardless of the width you end up with too much pressure in the hotend and can not retract fast enough to prevent the little bit of ooze. I have found for a J-head you want around 3 cubic mm of plastic per second.

crispy1

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Re: Blobbing at perimeter transition point
« Reply #24 on: June 30, 2013, 07:24:01 AM »
That's interesting, but I think using an extrusion width smaller than your nozzle orifice is bad practice.  I've seen several instances where it resulted in misaligned layers because the extruded plastic would "float" around the orifice.

Here's an interesting experiment, if you don't mind running it.  Calculate how much your flow rate of plastic has decreased by decreasing your bead width.  Then, increase your print speed by a corresponding amount so that your flow rate is back to what it was in your first picture.

The reason I'm suggesting this is I've noticed that at lower flow rates the blobs are less prominent.  So in order to get a good comparison we need the flow rate to be held constant.

stonemonkee

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Re: Blobbing at perimeter transition point
« Reply #23 on: June 30, 2013, 02:31:49 AM »
I have a 0.35 Nozzle.
I had put my extrusion width up to 0.37 while trying things out and the blobs appeared.
I then reduced my extrusion width to 0.33 and the blobs vanished and my print quality went up.
I have printed a test cube also and theres not difference in dimensions.
I was printing in white ABS with 4 loops hollow  at 0.20 layer height, the defects show up really well  when I put a small torch inside as dark spots.
The pics below show the blobs before and then the same object printed later with no blobs at all.(lit by the torch)
I have now printed the same object at 0.10 and it is perfect, very hard to see the individual layers

* 20130630_112009-1.jpg (7.88 kB, 408x408 - viewed 21 times.)

* 20130630_112106-1.jpg (6.9 kB, 408x408 - viewed 21 times.)

crispy1

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Re: Blobbing at perimeter transition point
« Reply #22 on: June 29, 2013, 03:28:57 PM »
Quote
I managed to completely remove it by lowering my Extusion width ...no more blobs

What was your original extrusion width, and what did you lower it to?  And what size nozzle do you have?

stonemonkee

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Re: Blobbing at perimeter transition point
« Reply #21 on: June 29, 2013, 02:57:27 PM »
not sure if this helps at all...
I was messing around with my settings and ended up with exactly the same blobbing problem.
I managed to completely remove it by lowering my Extusion width ...no more blobs

orcinus

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Re: Blobbing at perimeter transition point
« Reply #20 on: June 13, 2013, 08:29:05 AM »
Might be related, might be not, but i'm experiencing the same kind of blobs the OP originally posted, except i *don't* use jitter and they're *not* at the starts/ends of the loop. They're relatively fine and mostly show up at 0.1mm layer heights and below, but are still rather visible because of their random nature.

Has anyone experienced anything similar?

PenskeGuy

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Re: Blobbing at perimeter transition point
« Reply #19 on: June 12, 2013, 04:50:51 PM »
I'm assuming that the advancing extrusion leading bulge would squish around the layer start bulge and taper off on both sides; ending up in a more smooth surface and uniformly thick wall. Get this setting just right (it would change from material to material--temperature to temperature) and the seam will be minimal and probably near invisible in opaque materials. You'd most likely still see something in the refraction change in transparents but it would have to be less.

Combine this with Seam Hiding and Jitter and we're lookin' at a whole new game.
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jd_oc

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Re: Blobbing at perimeter transition point
« Reply #18 on: June 12, 2013, 09:34:33 AM »
Awesome Jonathan! So now the question becomes what would be the ideal gap between start and end points of a perimeter. I thought about this some, and sketched up a picture as well as derived an equation to find the optimal gap distance to have uniform material density at the overlap point. Turns out a gap distance of (pi/4)* nozzle diameter would provide perfect material density at the overlap. Hopefully this helps choose a good (at least mathematically) starting point that people could then tune based on their setup. 

If anyone finds an error in my calcs please let me know.

-Jonas

I really like this idea...A2TD*.  [8^)

Jonathan

* nozzle gap distance.png (62.63 kB, 1125x759 - viewed 26 times.)

* IMAG0088.jpg (128.46 kB, 643x736 - viewed 14 times.)

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Re: Blobbing at perimeter transition point
« Reply #17 on: June 12, 2013, 04:30:25 AM »
Being able to adjust that per material would be good.
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crispy1

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Re: Blobbing at perimeter transition point
« Reply #16 on: June 12, 2013, 04:14:45 AM »
AFAIK, the Seam Hiding pulls the layer start/end inside the part. It doesn't end the layer early or overlap the start. That said, I think that a function to end early would be beneficial, to be used in conjunction with the current Seam Hiding.

Interestingly enough, if you look at slic3r's toolpaths in something like Repetier host, you see a small gap between the start and stop point, so I think this is what slic3r is doing.

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Re: Blobbing at perimeter transition point
« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2013, 03:09:13 AM »
I found reducing it from 1.0 to 0.0 actually didn't make much of a difference. I was wondering if that slider could go to less than 0.0 (i.e, give it a range of -2.0 to 2.0) if that would help? Like leave an intentional gap between the start and end points to allow the extra material to fill that space?

AFAIK, the Seam Hiding pulls the layer start/end inside the part. It doesn't end the layer early or overlap the start. That said, I think that a function to end early would be beneficial, to be used in conjunction with the current Seam Hiding.
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Re: Blobbing at perimeter transition point
« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2013, 12:17:24 AM »
I really like this idea...A2TD*.  [8^)

Jonathan
*A2TD : "Added to the ToDo list"

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Re: Blobbing at perimeter transition point
« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2013, 09:24:54 PM »
Just wanted to add one more user experience. I too experience this blobbing, and it was much more pronounced than Slic3r. However, Slic3r has its own set of problems so I don't use it much. Anyway, when V1.1 of KISSlicer came out and had the 'seam hiding' feature I was really happy as I thought that would be the cure to these blobs (i.e., I thought it was the overlap of when a perimeter came back around from where it started), but after testing I found reducing it from 1.0 to 0.0 actually didn't make much of a difference. I was wondering if that slider could go to less than 0.0 (i.e, give it a range of -2.0 to 2.0) if that would help? Like leave an intentional gap between the start and end points to allow the extra material to fill that space?

crispy1

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Re: Blobbing at perimeter transition point
« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2013, 08:08:05 AM »
Quote
I tried more Suck than Prime - now the blobs are more-or-less level with the surface, but are still way too visible.

That's what I tried too.  It works ok until you do something like a gear where it has many small infill areas and it retracts in between them. In this situation the hotend ends up with no plastic in it and stops extruding, ruining the print. 

I've had some success with cranking my retraction up an additional 50%, this seems to basically starve the start point of plastic and then the perimeter change blob has somewhere to fill in without poking out past the surface.

EldRich

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Re: Blobbing at perimeter transition point
« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2013, 07:36:29 AM »
I tried more Suck than Prime - now the blobs are more-or-less level with the surface, but are still way too visible.

crispy1

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Re: Blobbing at perimeter transition point
« Reply #10 on: June 09, 2013, 11:28:57 AM »
Differential retraction is a useless workaround for anything with multiple retracts in quick succession, because the hotend ends up with no plastic in it.

Jonathan - sounds like this is a pain point for more than just myself.  Any chance some improvement could be worked into the next release?  I like KISS but this is causing everything I print to look terrible.

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Re: Blobbing at perimeter transition point
« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2013, 09:32:11 AM »
I've had the exact same problem, with a direct (non-Bowden) extruder. I'll try more suck than prime and see if that helps.

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Re: Blobbing at perimeter transition point
« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2013, 09:03:42 AM »
Did some more testing.  If I do the perimeters in the opposite order (outside -> inside) and use 5.5 retract and 4.0 prime (which seems like an insanely large differential) I can pretty much get the blobs to disappear, and while the start/stop point is visible it's flush with the face.

I will have to see how this perimeter order works for overhangs and complex geometry.  

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Re: Blobbing at perimeter transition point
« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2013, 08:33:32 PM »
What I believe is happening is this:  (in this example say we have 2 perimeters)  As the print head finishes the first (inner) perimeter, it has to make a quick right-left jog to move out one bead thickness in order to begin the second perimeter.  During this right-left jog the head leaves a small amount of extra plastic behind in the form of a blob.

Well, I get the exact same artifacts with Perimeter > Inner Loop setting. This doesn't seem to fit with the hypothesis. You said earlier that you tried out > in and it made no difference. Secondly, if in the above description, the head "leaves a small amount of extra plastic behind" while moving from inner to outer, it shouldn't appear on the outside of the part. If it is pushing a blob, that would be consistent. Just trying to reconcile the descriptions.
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Re: Blobbing at perimeter transition point
« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2013, 07:58:51 PM »
You'd figure that going significantly more Suck than Prime would simulate the "drop while moving" layer start that I described above. IOW, starve the extruder, so that it doesn't output any plastic for 4mm or so and then begins to resume normal extrusion. Trade off the ooze for extrusion on the fly. Hack, but it might work.
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crispy1

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Re: Blobbing at perimeter transition point
« Reply #5 on: June 08, 2013, 07:44:30 PM »
Add "tried setting both retraction min jump and trigger to 0" to the list of stuff that fails to make any difference.

EDIT

Quote
Using Jitter forces the head to move across the part a lot. This is an opportunity for a bit of extrusion to exit the nozzle and when the head comes into contact again, the deposit is drawn out into those teardrop shapes.

I want to emphatically state that this is not what is happening on my parts.  I've spent hours with my face about 3 inches from the print bed as it prints and I'm very confident I am not seeing start/stop ooze or ooze from travel moves.  The start points are very clean with no blobbing, and there are no hairs that would indicate the head is dribbling during travel moves.

What I believe is happening is this:  (in this example say we have 2 perimeters)  As the print head finishes the first (inner) perimeter, it has to make a quick right-left jog to move out one bead thickness in order to begin the second perimeter.  During this right-left jog the head leaves a small amount of extra plastic behind in the form of a blob.  I think this happens because the head decelerates from its print speed to whatever the jerk speed configured in the firmware is.  I think that slic3r depressurizes the extruder during this jog, and KISS does not, and that this is why slic3r produces blob-less parts.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2013, 07:59:22 PM by crispy1 »

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Re: Blobbing at perimeter transition point
« Reply #4 on: June 08, 2013, 07:14:59 PM »
Quote
Perhaps your model doesn't have sharp enough corners but, usually, KS will place the seam on one and follow it up the part; even if the corner does a helix.

Sometimes that works ok, but more often I end up with too much plastic building up and it looks worse than if I had turned jitter on.

It's nice to know I am not alone in fighting this particular gremlin.  The fact that slic3r doesn't exhibit this issue indicates to me that it's possible to improve on what KISS does currently.

To show you what I mean, take a look at the columns on the torture test.  Slic3r is on the right, my best output with KISS is on the left.  Even though the slic3r print has issues, the actual blobs on the columns are far less severe.

* IMG_20130608_225925.jpg (282.09 kB, 1440x1080 - viewed 57 times.)

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Re: Blobbing at perimeter transition point
« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2013, 06:51:45 PM »
Yep. Same thing here. Haven't found a way to get rid of them and have opted for some parts to not use Jitter because of it. Having a deliberate seam is sometimes better than what appear to be spurious errors.

Using Jitter forces the head to move across the part a lot. This is an opportunity for a bit of extrusion to exit the nozzle and when the head comes into contact again, the deposit is drawn out into those teardrop shapes. If the head could come down while already having started the path, the extra material could be better smoothed out along it; as opposed to all in one spot and then dragged.

Perhaps your model doesn't have sharp enough corners but, usually, KS will place the seam on one and follow it up the part; even if the corner does a helix.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2013, 06:57:37 PM by PenskeGuy »
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Re: Blobbing at perimeter transition point
« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2013, 06:34:51 PM »
Some more details...

I'm printing at 85mm/s, layer height 0.25mm, bead width 0.6mm.  Nozzle dia is 0.5mm (j-head).  This is a bowden setup using 1.75mm filament.

Going significantly slower (45mm/s) reduces but does not eliminate the problem.  Going faster (110mm/s+) makes the blobs slightly worse but not as much as I would expect.  I notice the issue at lower layer heights as well (0.15mm, 0.2mm).

One thing I haven't tried is setting my retraction triggers to 0, to possibly force a retraction on the perimeter change.  I'll give that a try later tonight.

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Blobbing at perimeter transition point
« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2013, 11:44:05 AM »
I'm seeing small blobs at the point where KISS transitions from the inner to outer perimeter of an object.  It's not blobbing at the start/stop of a bead, it's blobbing at the point where it does the short jog sideways to start the next perimeter.

I've run about 35 tests varying everything I can think of to get rid of it and have not been able to get it to go away.  In no particular order I've tried varying perimeter order (inside/outside first), seam hiding on/off, non-equal suck/prime values, different lengths of suck/prime (longer and shorter than my normal), temperature (hotter and colder), higher and lower values of XY acceleration and jerk, removing the inner/outer perimeter speed differential by limiting the max flow rate, reducing the flow rate.  None of these have had an impact on the blobs.

slic3r does not exhibit these same perimeter transition bumps, but slic3r is broken in other ways.

I've attached a picture showing a typical example of what I see.  Jitter is set to 360.  If I set it to 0 then all the seams are in the same place, which makes most of the object look good except for where the seam is.  This also doesn't work for certain geometry and I get a buildup of plastic that eventually ruins the print.

Has anyone else seen these same sort of bumps?  Are there known workarounds?  I'm at the end of my rope here and this is really the last problem before the prints I am making look cosmetically perfect.

* IMG_20130608_154137.jpg (314.63 kB, 1440x1080 - viewed 66 times.)

funBart

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Jan 11, 2014, 9:32:20 PM1/11/14
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 Topic: Seam hiding  (Read 318 times)

PenskeGuy

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Re: Seam hiding
« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2013, 01:42:28 PM »
Then it makes a groove. Have you adjusted the amount?
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    Re: Seam hiding
    « Reply #4 on: December 13, 2013, 01:31:13 AM »
    Current realisation of Seam Hiding is wrong... Why ? Because Start/Stop lines is crossing and make blob.

    How to true ? See picture:


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      Re: Seam hiding
      « Reply #3 on: September 16, 2013, 08:20:02 PM »
      Cool, thanks.  That was my suspicion, but wasn't positive.

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      Re: Seam hiding
      « Reply #2 on: September 16, 2013, 07:51:50 PM »
      Dropping the temp. The Seam Hiding at 1.0 is maximum. It pulls the start/end point inside the part at the greatest distance from the perimeter.
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        Seam hiding
        « Reply #1 on: September 16, 2013, 06:48:55 PM »
        Hey all, I'm just curious what this setting does.

        I had this setting at 1.0, and I was getting some blobbing at the layer start points.  I accidentally changed this to .5 (but I also dropped the temp on a print I was doing) and the blobs went away.  I'm not sure which change fixed the issue. :)

        Thanks,

        Lon


        Radus

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        Jan 31, 2014, 12:10:00 PM1/31/14
        to kisslicer-r...@googlegroups.com
        Hello i think  seam hidding must be better !

        Now seam with blobs on perimeter and hidding option gets poor result.
        But if make new algorithm for connects perimeter, blobs go to inside and it is be good.

        See picture:
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