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Dec 14, 2013, 6:50:17 PM12/14/13
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SyntaxCapt
- Jr. Member
- Posts: 92
Hey everyone. One trouble area that has me stumped is getting high res prints to print properly over steep angles or on support material. I thought I would stop here first to get some tips.
I feel as though I've tuned my settings as best I can, so hopefully I can rule that out.
What seems to happen is when it begins to print on the support material or on a steep angle it will have intermittent gaps. For example: when the support material path changes direction by 90 degrees instead of getting a nice cross hatch it'll have sort of a pillar shape to it (gaps between the extruded path).
Like wise this same effect will happen when the part begins to print on the support.
I tried a couple test prints for observation pruposes. The test print involved printing a sphere about 5mm in the air with support material all around it. In the photo you can see the gaps. It does eventually figure its self out and fill them in about 1/3 the way up.
Two things I was thinking might be the cause is:
-I may need to make my own nozzle with a smaller extruder diameter (.4 perhaps?).
-Or the PLA that BFB gave me is garbage and I should try another brand ( I noticed there's no expiry date on this roll and it behaves differently from my first roll of PLA).
I really enjoy using kisslier, but this one issue is holding me back when it comes to getting great looking high res prints.
Or am I asking too much from a 4000$ pre-built printer?
Thanks in advance!
-Chris
Support test.png (62.63 kB, 1314x583 - viewed 36 times.)
IMG_0331.jpg (84.64 kB, 800x600 - viewed 104 times.)
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lonesock (Jonathan)
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Could you zip up and email me the STL and the output G-code file you used to print that? I had never thought of the "Sphere in Space" test model, that's a great idea!
Jonathan
Jonathan
*A2TD : "Added to the ToDo list"
RobW
- Jr. Member
- Posts: 62
- 3DTouch dual head
Hmm. I haven't seen that problem in printing spheres, though to be fair what I've been printing is a bit larger (6cm diameter) and has weird surface topography that makes it a bit hard to tell what's going on. The issues I've been having are random bumps coming out of the sphere within about 20? of the "south pole", but I think this is mostly because I've used too little support material.
2-head 3D Touch
Ultimachine PLA
0.125mm layers
"dense" support up to ~70?? (I don't recall the exact settings, but the problem gets worse as the support covers less area)
No infill
3-path wall thickness on sides, ~8-layer wall thickness on top/bottom
2-head 3D Touch
Ultimachine PLA
0.125mm layers
"dense" support up to ~70?? (I don't recall the exact settings, but the problem gets worse as the support covers less area)
No infill
3-path wall thickness on sides, ~8-layer wall thickness on top/bottom
max72
- Full Member
- Posts: 148
Am I right assuming you are using PLA as support and ABS for the part?
In this case you can try to print PLA fatter (in place of dia 3.0 and flow tweak 1 I'm using 2.9 and 1.1, with orbi PLA). This way PLA is less sparse and offers a better supportm even sometimes it sticks too much.. :-)
Interface between raft and part is now very smooth.
I tested also acetone dipping before cleaning the part from PLA and sometimes it gave very nice results, but not all the times...
Massimo
In this case you can try to print PLA fatter (in place of dia 3.0 and flow tweak 1 I'm using 2.9 and 1.1, with orbi PLA). This way PLA is less sparse and offers a better supportm even sometimes it sticks too much.. :-)
Interface between raft and part is now very smooth.
I tested also acetone dipping before cleaning the part from PLA and sometimes it gave very nice results, but not all the times...
Massimo
SyntaxCapt
- Jr. Member
- Posts: 92
Sorry, forgot to mention; I used PLA for the support also. I don't trust my machine alone when using both extruders for prints. My second extruder had some of the fire cement ripped off from purged material getting pulled out of the purge bin and pushed into the print. Not to mention Kisslicer makes support so damn easy to remove now!
RobW, Those pumps look similar to mine. My sphere was only 25.4mm diameter though. (Ooo, is that an actualy Moon STL file?)
One reason I'm thinking it's my brand of PLA is I was printing some objects that required one feature to have a fairly tight tolerance. Once I switched to my "new" unopened roll of BFB PLA I got a completely different demension (no settings had been changed prior to). I had to go back to my Solid model and resize this particular pillar! Anyway, I'm may order some other brands to test and see what kind of results come though.
Thanks for the replies. I'll try another one over the weekend with those settings.
RobW, Those pumps look similar to mine. My sphere was only 25.4mm diameter though. (Ooo, is that an actualy Moon STL file?)
One reason I'm thinking it's my brand of PLA is I was printing some objects that required one feature to have a fairly tight tolerance. Once I switched to my "new" unopened roll of BFB PLA I got a completely different demension (no settings had been changed prior to). I had to go back to my Solid model and resize this particular pillar! Anyway, I'm may order some other brands to test and see what kind of results come though.
Thanks for the replies. I'll try another one over the weekend with those settings.
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destroyer2012
- Newbie
- Posts: 23
I feel like the top of the support needs to be pretty much solid in order for object layers to form properly and not droop in places. Doing that, however, makes the support difficult to remove.
It is possible, I think, to make the support solid and make it removable, by simply changing print speed/temperature while extruding the portion that sticks to the support. I have in the past produced objects in PLA that were indistinguishable except that one of them had poor layer adhesion and one of them did not. The difference ended up being purely speed. Go slower with the fan full blast and the layers don't stick as well; going faster makes them stick better, presumably because the fan does not cool the layers down as much. If we could employ a method such as this for the support generation, then we could seriously start approaching professional quality (with same material print/support) with this slicer. Another thing that might affect object layer sticking/support not sticking is the "stacked layers" option, which would mean that the object would be essentially at a much smaller layer height than the support, thus, greater layer adhesion. Sadly I cannot try this option because I don't have the pro version of kisslicer, but can someone else do it and report?
It is possible, I think, to make the support solid and make it removable, by simply changing print speed/temperature while extruding the portion that sticks to the support. I have in the past produced objects in PLA that were indistinguishable except that one of them had poor layer adhesion and one of them did not. The difference ended up being purely speed. Go slower with the fan full blast and the layers don't stick as well; going faster makes them stick better, presumably because the fan does not cool the layers down as much. If we could employ a method such as this for the support generation, then we could seriously start approaching professional quality (with same material print/support) with this slicer. Another thing that might affect object layer sticking/support not sticking is the "stacked layers" option, which would mean that the object would be essentially at a much smaller layer height than the support, thus, greater layer adhesion. Sadly I cannot try this option because I don't have the pro version of kisslicer, but can someone else do it and report?
SyntaxCapt
- Jr. Member
- Posts: 92
I have the Pro version. I'll give that a shot at some point. Thanks for the idea.
As for the material dropping between the support or simply not bridging correctly, I think a dense cross hatch just before the part could potentially help. Axon 1 had a setting for that, I think.
Only problem with temperature changes for a BFB user is the .BFB firmware causes the extruder to purge every time it calls up a new temperature in the code.
I'm not sure how other printers do this though
As for the material dropping between the support or simply not bridging correctly, I think a dense cross hatch just before the part could potentially help. Axon 1 had a setting for that, I think.
Only problem with temperature changes for a BFB user is the .BFB firmware causes the extruder to purge every time it calls up a new temperature in the code.
I'm not sure how other printers do this though
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SyntaxCapt
- Jr. Member
- Posts: 92
So a little update about the high-res print using Kisslicer. The object is 70mm high at .125 Z step, which took about 13 hours to print. With out the Kisslicer adjustable print speeds it most likely would have taken over 22+ to print. Additionally the slice time is a great time saver(matter of minutes)! Axon 2 usually takes forever and its support features would have made this print rather difficult (or even impossible).
I still had an issue with material being deposited on supported material, although I may have fixed it while it was printing by dropping the temperature by 15 degrees (Not really sure how that helped or what it did). It seems as though it just can't get a hold on those first few layers, but I'm thinking of trying it again with those new settings.
Didn't get a chance to try the Stacked layer(s) settings yet.
-Chris
Ps. Please leave "loops go from inside to perimeter" as an option!
I still had an issue with material being deposited on supported material, although I may have fixed it while it was printing by dropping the temperature by 15 degrees (Not really sure how that helped or what it did)
. It seems as though it just can't get a hold on those first few layers, but I'm thinking of trying it again with those new settings. Didn't get a chance to try the Stacked layer(s) settings yet.
-Chris
Ps. Please leave "loops go from inside to perimeter" as an option!
IMG_0359.JPG (200 kB, 1000x750 - viewed 105 times.)
IMG_0354.JPG (227.07 kB, 1000x750 - viewed 95 times.)BFB 3D Touch Dual head
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RobW
- Jr. Member
- Posts: 62
- 3DTouch dual head
I recognize that print error now- the diagonal lines at the base of her tail and hair look identical to the tearing I get at the base of prints with layer thicknesses less than 0.125mm. Do the lines run against the extruder's direction of travel, from bottom to top?
Unfortunately, I don't have any idea what the root cause is, and I've never had that problem with 0.125mm layers. I've attached my standard settings for 0.125mm PLA, so you can see how your settings differ.
Unfortunately, I don't have any idea what the root cause is, and I've never had that problem with 0.125mm layers. I've attached my standard settings for 0.125mm PLA, so you can see how your settings differ.
(Ooo, is that an actual Moon STL file?)
Yep. It's based on the GLD 100 terrain model, and this particular model is at 5x vertical exaggeration. I'm planning on printing a 15-20cm version (in two halves) sometime soon. I'd post the STL, but it's 200MB.
PLA_Settings.txt (1.54 kB - downloaded 11 times.)lonesock (Jonathan)
- KISSlicer Developer
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So a little update about the high-res print using Kisslicer. The object is 70mm high at .125 Z step, which took about 13 hours to print. With out the Kisslicer adjustable print speeds it most likely would have taken over 22+ to print. Additionally the slice time is a great time saver(matter of minutes)! Axon 2 usually takes forever and its support features would have made this print rather difficult (or even impossible).
I still had an issue with material being deposited on supported material, although I may have fixed it while it was printing by dropping the temperature by 15 degrees (Not really sure how that helped or what it did)
Didn't get a chance to try the Stacked layer(s) settings yet.
-Chris
Ps. Please leave "loops go from inside to perimeter" as an option!
I'm glad KISSlicer is helping! I wonder, if the support material is too warm it may be too liquid, and may droop more? Do you use the fan at all? And, regarding the loops direction option, you got it! (The people have spoken [8^)
Jonathan
*A2TD : "Added to the ToDo list"
SyntaxCapt
- Jr. Member
- Posts: 92
That's kind of what I was thinking too in regaurds to the temperature being too high (I typically use 195, but I dropped it to 180 for the other half of this print).
Also, the extruder rpm runs slow due to how fine the extruded diameter is and may be allowing heat to travel up the feed tube since it sits in one place for so long. Which maybe could cause interrupted material flow?
I leave the fans on for the whole cycle.
-Chris
Also, the extruder rpm runs slow due to how fine the extruded diameter is and may be allowing heat to travel up the feed tube since it sits in one place for so long. Which maybe could cause interrupted material flow?
I leave the fans on for the whole cycle.
-Chris
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RobW
- Jr. Member
- Posts: 62
- 3DTouch dual head
Any progress on this? I've found a couple of things that seem related, but haven't actually solved the problem.
- I was using 0.25mm layers in my previous tests. Dropping layer thickness to 0.125mm caused the ridging effect on the bottom of the globe, despite also dropping the temperature to 185?C. I got the same effect in some of the support material (see picture).
- Using 0.25mm layers, when I raise the skin thickness to 1.375mm from 0.875mm, I lose all definition on the surface within ~40? of the south pole- it's much rougher than the rest of the globe, and more cone-shaped than ball-shaped. This seems likely to be due to the added path width, and printing loops inside-to-out (although since the interior stuff prints after the loops, I'm not quite sure why this would happen). Weirdly, switching to outside-to-in printing severely degrades the surface quality of the entire print (it looks very blurry/melted) and causes a large hole to open in the north pole- both exactly the opposite of what I would expect.
- There are two little lines of indents (a single line of bulges in the outside-to-in print) going up the east side of the globe from where the extruder stops, retraces its path for ~1cm, and then jumps to the next layer. Are there any settings I can change to reduce this effect?
- I feel like I need to learn how to juggle, since I have seven little Moon globes sitting around my desk.
- I was using 0.25mm layers in my previous tests. Dropping layer thickness to 0.125mm caused the ridging effect on the bottom of the globe, despite also dropping the temperature to 185?C. I got the same effect in some of the support material (see picture).
- Using 0.25mm layers, when I raise the skin thickness to 1.375mm from 0.875mm, I lose all definition on the surface within ~40? of the south pole- it's much rougher than the rest of the globe, and more cone-shaped than ball-shaped. This seems likely to be due to the added path width, and printing loops inside-to-out (although since the interior stuff prints after the loops, I'm not quite sure why this would happen). Weirdly, switching to outside-to-in printing severely degrades the surface quality of the entire print (it looks very blurry/melted) and causes a large hole to open in the north pole- both exactly the opposite of what I would expect.
- There are two little lines of indents (a single line of bulges in the outside-to-in print) going up the east side of the globe from where the extruder stops, retraces its path for ~1cm, and then jumps to the next layer. Are there any settings I can change to reduce this effect?
- I feel like I need to learn how to juggle, since I have seven little Moon globes sitting around my desk.
lonesock (Jonathan)
- KISSlicer Developer
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- Hero Member
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- Alibre -> KISSlicer -> RapMan 3.1
Ooohh, moon-juggling! I majored in that!
- I can't print much below 0.2mm per layer on my printer (RapMan 3.1 with bent Z rods [8^/) If you drop the layer thickness, does it help to go slower?
- How many loops? I wonder if increasing the skin thickness ends up putting more solid material right next to the loops, instead of just sparse infill. If the solid material is deforming the loops, maybe try reducing the "Loop / Solid Infill Overlap" value under [Printer]? Also strange about the inside-to-out...not sure what to say here...fan on for loops?
- Try changing the wipe distance to 0 for the 1st material (big bug here...not sure if the 1st matl in the list gets used, or the material in the 1st extruder).
You can always buy a laser and try engraving "CHAIRFACE" on those moons! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chairface_Chippendale)
thanks,
Jonathan
- I can't print much below 0.2mm per layer on my printer (RapMan 3.1 with bent Z rods [8^/) If you drop the layer thickness, does it help to go slower?
- How many loops? I wonder if increasing the skin thickness ends up putting more solid material right next to the loops, instead of just sparse infill. If the solid material is deforming the loops, maybe try reducing the "Loop / Solid Infill Overlap" value under [Printer]? Also strange about the inside-to-out...not sure what to say here...fan on for loops?
- Try changing the wipe distance to 0 for the 1st material (big bug here...not sure if the 1st matl in the list gets used, or the material in the 1st extruder).
You can always buy a laser and try engraving "CHAIRFACE" on those moons! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chairface_Chippendale)
thanks,
Jonathan
*A2TD : "Added to the ToDo list"
SyntaxCapt
- Jr. Member
- Posts: 92
What brand PLA are you using. I'm using BFB PLA still. I use 3 loops, inside to out. Going to try printing something this weekend... If I have time ( I need to take a year off from everything!).
P.S. What's the diameter on those moons?
P.S. What's the diameter on those moons?
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RobW
- Jr. Member
- Posts: 62
- 3DTouch dual head
- I can't print much below 0.2mm per layer on my printer (RapMan 3.1 with bent Z rods [8^/) If you drop the layer thickness, does it help to go slower?
I haven't tried that. I've been consistently using 80-85% quality.
- How many loops? I wonder if increasing the skin thickness ends up putting more solid material right next to the loops, instead of just sparse infill. If the solid material is deforming the loops, maybe try reducing the "Loop / Solid Infill Overlap" value under [Printer]?
Definitely a possibility. 3 loops, and in the 150x150x50mm solid box calibration test, I needed to raise the overlap parameter to maximum in order to make it actually print solid on all sides. I'm printing hollow, so there is no sparse infill, just solid fill to increase the top/bottom thickness and avoid the north pole falling in. I'm thinking I'll try 4-5 loops and 0 skin thickness, and see if that works.
Also strange about the inside-to-out...not sure what to say here...fan on for loops?
I have it either "always on" or "on for loops", depending on print size.
- Try changing the wipe distance to 0 for the 1st material (big bug here...not sure if the 1st matl in the list gets used, or the material in the 1st extruder).
Never would have guessed that one. Thanks!
What brand PLA are you using. I'm using BFB PLA still.
Ultimachine 4043D, in red, white, and silver.
P.S. What's the diameter on those moons?
6cm.
SyntaxCapt
- Jr. Member
- Posts: 92
Had a much better print over the weekend come out. Another 12+ hour print.
My settings included:
Layer thickness: .125
Number of Loops: 3
Skin Thickness: .875
Loops go from inside to Perimeter: on
Infill: 50.0%
Material: White BfB PLA
Material Temp: 180 deg
Two things I changed over the last print were the Perimeter speed from typical speed of 16-4 and bumped it up to 26-12. I also moved the spool of material above the extruder and rotated it so it's no long feeding on it's side. (not sure if that last one really has any impact but you never know).
I also feel something that could impact quality is the fact that when a print gets to a certain height the fans effectiveness drops by quite a bit. The angle of the fans causes any cooling effect to miss the current printed layer
. Wish there was a way to rotate them or add more fans but there's simply no room and too many pinch points to add anything to the carriage.
Hope that helps.
-Chris
My settings included:
Layer thickness: .125
Number of Loops: 3
Skin Thickness: .875
Loops go from inside to Perimeter: on
Infill: 50.0%
Material: White BfB PLA
Material Temp: 180 deg
Two things I changed over the last print were the Perimeter speed from typical speed of 16-4 and bumped it up to 26-12. I also moved the spool of material above the extruder and rotated it so it's no long feeding on it's side. (not sure if that last one really has any impact but you never know).
I also feel something that could impact quality is the fact that when a print gets to a certain height the fans effectiveness drops by quite a bit. The angle of the fans causes any cooling effect to miss the current printed layer
. Wish there was a way to rotate them or add more fans but there's simply no room and too many pinch points to add anything to the carriage.Hope that helps.
-Chris
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RobW
- Jr. Member
- Posts: 62
- 3DTouch dual head
I also did a 12+ hour print over the weekend, but it didn't turn out quite as well: The filament stopped extruding about two hours in, so I only have the bottom centimeter of the print. Fortunately, that's exactly the part I've been having trouble with, and it came out very nice- no tearing (spiraling ridge/trough errors), and bumps are mostly limited to within ~10deg of the south pole.
- 5 loops, instead of 3
- No minimum thickness (though I don't think it makes much difference with that many loops printed for a near-sphere).
- Support only on slopes above 75deg.
- 0.75mm support gap (0.25 ended up fusing too much support to the model. I may try 0.5mm again to see if it reduces the few remaining droopy bumps, or if it re-introduces the tearing (or does nothing).
- Wipe distance = 0. This neatly removed the second line of indentations.
My theory for what's going on with with the tearing error is that PLA stretches out and thins when it bridges a gap, and then deposits an over-large lump of material when it reaches the far side of a gap (I've observed this on the first post-raft layers of numerous prints). For some reason, if the lower layer on the far side of the gap is not continuous for very long (or perhaps if it is too far from the new layer to really bond properly, as is deliberately the case for rafts and support material), the thin-bridging effect starts immediately after the thicker blob gets deposited, and you end up with a series of alternating thick and thin parts of the outer loops which appear to spiral upward in the opposite direction for the extruder's path of travel (as demonstrated beautifully by Fluttershy's hair and tail from a few posts ago).
It should be possible to compensate for this on the raft layer by slightly increasing the flow rate for the first post-raft layer, at the cost of increasing the bonding between the raft and print. I'm not sure what can be done for layers supported by support structures. Reducing the number of contact points seemed to work for me, perhaps by causing the entire outer surface of the globe to droop slightly and bond to the lower layer, rather than the support material, so there was no bridging. I'm not sure how this would work for complicated geometries- I can see some significant (1/2 layer thickness) drooping on a few crater rims near the pole in my print.
... Just as a random thought, I'm wondering what would happen to this pattern if the extruder travel direction reversed every layer. I may need to do some exciting scripting...
Two things I changed over the last print were the Perimeter speed from typical speed of 16-4 and bumped it up to 26-12...
Very odd- I set the speed slower than I had it previously, so it should have been 3 for the outermost loop. The other major changes from the globe with significant bottom-side tearing were:
- 5 loops, instead of 3
- No minimum thickness (though I don't think it makes much difference with that many loops printed for a near-sphere).
- Support only on slopes above 75deg.
- 0.75mm support gap (0.25 ended up fusing too much support to the model. I may try 0.5mm again to see if it reduces the few remaining droopy bumps, or if it re-introduces the tearing (or does nothing).
- Wipe distance = 0. This neatly removed the second line of indentations.
My theory for what's going on with with the tearing error is that PLA stretches out and thins when it bridges a gap, and then deposits an over-large lump of material when it reaches the far side of a gap (I've observed this on the first post-raft layers of numerous prints). For some reason, if the lower layer on the far side of the gap is not continuous for very long (or perhaps if it is too far from the new layer to really bond properly, as is deliberately the case for rafts and support material), the thin-bridging effect starts immediately after the thicker blob gets deposited, and you end up with a series of alternating thick and thin parts of the outer loops which appear to spiral upward in the opposite direction for the extruder's path of travel (as demonstrated beautifully by Fluttershy's hair and tail from a few posts ago).
It should be possible to compensate for this on the raft layer by slightly increasing the flow rate for the first post-raft layer, at the cost of increasing the bonding between the raft and print. I'm not sure what can be done for layers supported by support structures. Reducing the number of contact points seemed to work for me, perhaps by causing the entire outer surface of the globe to droop slightly and bond to the lower layer, rather than the support material, so there was no bridging. I'm not sure how this would work for complicated geometries- I can see some significant (1/2 layer thickness) drooping on a few crater rims near the pole in my print.
... Just as a random thought, I'm wondering what would happen to this pattern if the extruder travel direction reversed every layer. I may need to do some exciting scripting...
SyntaxCapt
- Jr. Member
- Posts: 92
Sorry to hear you had a ruined print. I hate when that happens... Makes me want to flip my bench over (although, my bench is now bolted to the wall studs).
Interesting thought on the tearing and lump errors in the outside loop. Now that I've had a chance to completely remove the support material and touch it up I do notice there is still vertical errors coming out. Albeit, much smaller that before and without the wide open rips in the loops. But the bumps still come out in place.
So in theory if there was something in the post processors that told the last layer of support material to double the extruder feed just before the supported part layer this could be something that would solve that issue?
Another thought that has been bugging me is what if the nozzle diameter match the extruded width for high res prints. Really wish I had the tools to build my own .35-.4 diameter nozzle.
Interesting thought on the tearing and lump errors in the outside loop. Now that I've had a chance to completely remove the support material and touch it up I do notice there is still vertical errors coming out. Albeit, much smaller that before and without the wide open rips in the loops. But the bumps still come out in place.
So in theory if there was something in the post processors that told the last layer of support material to double the extruder feed just before the supported part layer this could be something that would solve that issue?
Another thought that has been bugging me is what if the nozzle diameter match the extruded width for high res prints. Really wish I had the tools to build my own .35-.4 diameter nozzle.
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RobW
- Jr. Member
- Posts: 62
- 3DTouch dual head
So in theory if there was something in the post processors that told the last layer of support material to double the extruder feed just before the supported part layer this could be something that would solve that issue?
If I'm understanding you right, this would basically just make the top layer of the support wider, which might help, but would probably also increase adhesion between the support and model. I did a test with a 0.25mm gap between support and model, and I didn't have any tearing (I was also only supporting above 80deg slopes, so that might also explain the results). Unfortunately, that also left a lot of blobs of support material permanently fused to the southern hemisphere of the globe. A possible solution might be to use ABS support and PLA model (or vice-versa), if I trusted the printer to use multiple materials (or had any ABS).
Another thought that has been bugging me is what if the nozzle diameter match the extruded width for high res prints.
That's what I'm doing (0.5mm extrusion width). It doesn't seem to prevent the problem, but it might reduce it, and I can't say if it would be better with a smaller nozzle diameter.
Anyway, I'm printing off some big square parts for the local robotics club right now, but I should be able to try another overhang test over the weekend.
PenskeGuy
- Hero Member
- Posts: 1236
- Any Day I Learn Something New Is A Good Day
You can always buy a laser and try engraving "CHAIRFACE" on those moons!
I nearly passed a mouthful of espresso through my nose when I read this. My SO has:
"I'll show ya' a tissue sample!" [snoorrerrrk]
as her ringtone.
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