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Dec 18, 2013, 5:27:59 PM12/18/13
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Topic: Understanding wipe  (Read 1162 times)

PenskeGuy

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Re: Understanding wipe
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2013, 02:03:52 PM »
I think the firmware will start a retract a soon as M103 is found, and will continue to retract until either the extruder is turned back on, or the retract distance is met.  So if there is a very short hop to the next point, it will not retract fully.  This also means it is retracting *while moving*!!  This is partly why the wipe path helps.

Retract while moving is good in some cases, like over long traverses where ooze will develop a blob on the nozzle before it gets to the next layer start.

Then I am not sure of the logic used for the prime of the next section, but somehow it is affected by how much was actually retracted on the previous suck.  When the Suck & Prime values differ, I have no idea how the firmware performs that scaling.  Also, I have found no way to specify the retract / prime extruder speed.

In Axon/Skeinforge there are adjustable values for Prime and Reverse Amount in mm and Prime and Reverse Speed in RPM, so there must be some way to access these.

I tried triggering destring manually, since there are retract and prime commands, but the BfB firmware moves the head to the warm-up location before performing the retract or prime, so it's not overly helpful.

I'm betting that the BfB terminology is whacked. (Not a surprise) From looking at the values, it would seem that Reverse is the Destring but Prime is actually a mid-print Purge done at the wipe box. Default settings are:

Prime Amount: 18 revolutions    Prime Speed: 60 RPM
Reverse Amount: 3 revolutions    Reverse Speed: 90 RPM

18 Revs Prime (@1 mm/rev) is a lot of Prime, while 3 Revs of Reverse seems about right for a Destring. From watching the lead screws, this seems to coorelate. Prime (Purge at the wipe box after heating to temp) is a long, slow, steady run. Reverse between deposits is short and quick.

So, perhaps this is a window into that to trigger and what not to trigger in order to get what we call Destring.
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lonesock (Jonathan)

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Re: Understanding wipe
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2013, 09:25:51 AM »
I think the firmware will start a retract a soon as M103 is found, and will continue to retract until either the extruder is turned back on, or the retract distance is met.  So if there is a very short hop to the next point, it will not retract fully.  This also means it is retracting *while moving*!!  This is partly why the wipe path helps.

Then I am not sure of the logic used for the prime of the next section, but somehow it is affected by how much was actually retracted on the previous suck.  When the Suck & Prime values differ, I have no idea how the firmware performs that scaling.  Also, I have found no way to specify the retract / prime extruder speed.

I tried triggering destring manually, since there are retract and prime commands, but the BfB firmware moves the head to the warm-up location before performing the retract or prime, so it's not overly helpful.  I also tried changing the destring settings within the print, but I *think* the new values are updated immediately as soon as the command (M227/9 iirc) is reached, however motion commands are buffered, so the effect is unpredictable.

The idea of a magical always-working destring is pretty awesome....I just wish it *was* always-working.  [8^)

Jonathan
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PenskeGuy

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Re: Understanding wipe
« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2013, 10:53:34 PM »
On BfB I don't actually trigger a destring operation.  Ever extrusion stop (M103) gets a semi-retract, and every extrusion start (M101/201/301) gets a semi-prime.  The actual retract and prime distances used are up to the firmware, and are no larger than the values you request, but often much shorter.

Well, that sucks. Do you think that the values might be proportional to those requested somehow? I seem to be getting cleaner prints after raising the Suck/Prime values significantly. Why everything has to be a black box with them is seriously hacking me off.
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lonesock (Jonathan)

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Re: Understanding wipe
« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2013, 09:32:22 AM »
@PenskeGuy:  On BfB I don't actually trigger a destring operation.  Ever extrusion stop (M103) gets a semi-retract, and every extrusion start (M101/201/301) gets a semi-prime.  The actual retract and prime distances used are up to the firmware, and are no larger than the values you request, but often much shorter.  I guess you could use a very short wipe distance and force a wipe on all jumps, to sort of match the behavior of the BfB, but I think it would really slow down the print.

Jonathan
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Polygonhell

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Re: Understanding wipe
« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2013, 11:07:31 PM »
Hey.

So, here is the order of operations.  For any given travel, KISSlicer will...
  • request a wipe/destring if the travel crosses (or comes really close to) the surface of the object
  • cancel the request for wipe/destring if the jump < Min Jump (no point destringing ultra-tiny travels...say shorter than 1 mm?)
  • force a wipe/destring if the travel distance is > Trigger (say you want all travels over 10mm to do a wipe/destring, even if it isn't close to the surface of the object)
Btw, internally a wipe event triggers a destring (at least on 5D firmware...on BfB you just get what you get).  In the case there is no wipe (set to 0) for that material, no actual wipe is performed, but it's still the signal to do a destring.

Does that make sense?

Jonathan

Ahh OK that makes sense, the missing thing in my understanding was 1, the primary trigger is just crossing a boundary.
Then it pretty much does what I want by default.

PenskeGuy

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Re: Understanding wipe
« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2013, 08:10:43 PM »
force a wipe/destring if the travel distance is > Trigger (say you want all travels over 10mm to do a wipe/destring, even if it isn't close to the surface of the object)

Would this help the angel hair that I get when the head travels between the vertical cylinders I print? There usually is 1" minimum between the towers that are all ganged on the bed as one STL. Two loops are done, move to the next tower, repeat.

request a wipe/destring if the travel crosses (or comes really close to) the surface of the object

This might be why the angel hair doesn't appear on all towers. If the path ends on a section of the loop circle that is on the opposite side of the tower from the next tower's location, it would trigger a wipe/destring because the head has to travel over the part. If on the same side of the tower, it just goes and strings.

Btw, internally a wipe event triggers a destring (at least on 5D firmware...on BfB you just get what you get).

Can you expand on what I'm getting? IOW, what doesn't happen with a BfB machine?
« Last Edit: January 03, 2013, 08:27:36 PM by PenskeGuy »
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lonesock (Jonathan)

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Re: Understanding wipe
« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2013, 04:31:48 PM »
Hey.

So, here is the order of operations.  For any given travel, KISSlicer will...
  • request a wipe/destring if the travel crosses (or comes really close to) the surface of the object
  • cancel the request for wipe/destring if the jump < Min Jump (no point destringing ultra-tiny travels...say shorter than 1 mm?)
  • force a wipe/destring if the travel distance is > Trigger (say you want all travels over 10mm to do a wipe/destring, even if it isn't close to the surface of the object)
Btw, internally a wipe event triggers a destring (at least on 5D firmware...on BfB you just get what you get).  In the case there is no wipe (set to 0) for that material, no actual wipe is performed, but it's still the signal to do a destring.

Does that make sense?

Jonathan
*A2TD : "Added to the ToDo list"

Polygonhell

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Understanding wipe
« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2013, 03:28:23 PM »
The Xmas beta has a setting Trigger (mm).
Does the travel move need to be greater than this setting to invoke a wipe, this doesn't seem to be the case and the Min Jump setting would be redundant in this case.
Is it then the accumulated distance between wipes when a travel move is performed that triggers a wipe.
What I really want to do is wipe on any travel move that would invoke a destring, and it could already be doing that, I'm just not understanding the setting.

Thanks
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