Advertising KFA in the TFW10 Program Book

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Sara Eileen

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Jun 29, 2010, 6:54:58 PM6/29/10
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Hey ya'll,

As a staff member of The Floating World (a large alt-sex and mixed community event taking place in NJ this August) I've had an opportunity to work on the program guide, and recently decided to lend some financial support to the event by buying one of the ads.

When then presented with the challenge of what my ad might be about, I saw a nice opportunity to give KinkForAll a little bump of exposure. I'm planning to put a page in the book that subtly advertises KFA (i.e. uses a slogan or the flame imagery, or pulls quotes from the presentations online.) Nothing too flashy, but a subtle design that will draw some eyes, be a nice addition to the book and hopefully bring some more interested people our way.

Obviously paying for advertising isn't necessary or at all typical of KFA's model, but given the opportunity to support two initiatives that I care about, I thought this could work out nicely.

In the interest of transparency, I thought I'd let everyone know that I'm doing this, and also ask if anyone has design suggestions? I think I'm going to probably use a variation upon the awesome Statute of Liberty / KFA flame idea that Maymay mentioned a while back.

Cheers,
Sara Eileen

maymay

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Jun 29, 2010, 7:46:32 PM6/29/10
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That's a really nice thought, Sara.

Bluntly, I see very little value in advertising KinkForAll in The Floating World's program guide. I think you and the world might get a lot more value out of your advertisement by donating the ad spot to, say, the Community-Academic Consortium for Research on Alternative Sexualities,[0] if they haven't placed an ad already. I can help you reach out to someone at that organization to ask if they'd appreciate working with you to put an ad in the guide. Doing that could garner you a contact at CARAS as well as give them the much-appreciated publicity I know they're looking for.

That said, advertising KinkForAll is still really thoughtful and very kind. Thanks for the effort. :) You're right in saying that advertising isn't typical of KinkForAll since it really isn't necessary or even helpful and can, in fact, be damaging and unhelpful in many circumstances. I sincerely appreciate that you offered an explanation of simple good faith for why you want to take out an ad in TFW for KinkForAll. If you've already considered the potential ways it could both help and harm KinkForAll, then all I can say is thanks for the thought!

Call me skeptical, but I'd reconsider and offer the ad space to an organization or charity that would benefit more from it than KinkForAll would.

Cheers,
-maymay
Blog: http://maybemaimed.com
Talk show: http://KinkOnTap.com
Community: http://KinkForAll.org
Volunteering: http://ConversioVirium.org/author/maymay

[0] http://caras.ws

Sara Eileen

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Jun 29, 2010, 8:51:53 PM6/29/10
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Hi Maymay,

I have, in fact, considered several different organizations that could
benefit from advertising space, among them a number of nonprofit
organizations.

That said, I chose, upon reflection, to give the space to KFA. As a
crowdsourced organization, I believe that we do stand to benefit from
using the space in a way that draws in a few more interested parties.
I also believe that the audience and community of TWF is made up of
enough disparate and open communities that doing so will speak to an
appropriately mixed audience.

I could spend my free time this fall flyering for the LGBTQ Center
here in New York, or volunteering there - a very worthy nonprofit
cause indeed. Instead, I hope that I will be spending it assisting to
unorganize the next KFANYC. As I give my time and my financial
donations to a movement I believe in, I chose to give this ad space as
well.

I expect that as KFA grows we may begin to see more advertising
opportunities that do not represent a financial burden to events
through new channels and platforms, and I hope that we can continue to
embrace them (along with all good faith promotional activities) as an
intrinsic if small part of spreading the KFA model.

Cheers,
Sara Eileen

P.S. Typed on my mobile device, so please excuse any lack of clarity
as the inevitable result of thinking with one's thumbs.

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maymay

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Jun 29, 2010, 9:09:51 PM6/29/10
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On Jun 29, 2010, at 5:51 PM, Sara Eileen wrote:

> Hi Maymay,
>
> I have, in fact, considered several different organizations that could
> benefit from advertising space, among them a number of nonprofit
> organizations.

I'm not surprised to hear you've thought things through. :)

> That said, I chose, upon reflection, to give the space to KFA. As a
> crowdsourced organization, I believe that we do stand to benefit from
> using the space in a way that draws in a few more interested parties.
> I also believe that the audience and community of TWF is made up of
> enough disparate and open communities that doing so will speak to an
> appropriately mixed audience.

I hope you'll pardon my continued skepticism that The Floating World is a "mixed audience." Even a cursory glance at the participating groups page shows a distinct lack of variety even in the logos of the groups themselves.[0]

> I could spend my free time this fall flyering for the LGBTQ Center
> here in New York, or volunteering there - a very worthy nonprofit
> cause indeed. Instead, I hope that I will be spending it assisting to
> unorganize the next KFANYC. As I give my time and my financial
> donations to a movement I believe in, I chose to give this ad space as
> well.
>
> I expect that as KFA grows we may begin to see more advertising
> opportunities that do not represent a financial burden to events
> through new channels and platforms, and I hope that we can continue to
> embrace them (along with all good faith promotional activities) as an
> intrinsic if small part of spreading the KFA model.
>
> Cheers,
> Sara Eileen
>
> P.S. Typed on my mobile device, so please excuse any lack of clarity
> as the inevitable result of thinking with one's thumbs.

Like I said, publicity is much-appreciated. And, reiterating, thanks for the thought.

EXTERNAL REFERENCES:

[0] http://floatingworld.dreamhosters.com/web/participating-groups/

Sara Eileen

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Jun 29, 2010, 9:24:33 PM6/29/10
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Your skepticism is acknowledged and, respectfully, I disagree :).
Considering the class list, previous precedent of attendee mixes at
past events, and the event's stated mission (education and building
community across boundaries) I think there will certainly be at least
a few people at TFW who will appreciate learning more about KFA.

Happy to talk it through with you further off-thread, as I don't wish
to hijack the KFA list for a discussion of TFW!

All others, please do ping me if you have any design ideas!

Cheers,
Sara

On 6/29/10, maymay <bitethea...@gmail.com> wrote:

maymay

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Jun 29, 2010, 9:41:24 PM6/29/10
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On Jun 29, 2010, at 6:24 PM, Sara Eileen wrote:

> Your skepticism is acknowledged and, respectfully, I disagree :).
> Considering the class list, previous precedent of attendee mixes at
> past events, and the event's stated mission (education and building
> community across boundaries) I think there will certainly be at least
> a few people at TFW who will appreciate learning more about KFA.

I think you misunderstood me, as I never said there wouldn't be people at The Floating World who will appreciate learning more about KinkForAll. But, in the succinct words of our generation, whatever.

> Happy to talk it through with you further off-thread, as I don't wish
> to hijack the KFA list for a discussion of TFW!
>
> All others, please do ping me if you have any design ideas!
>
> Cheers,
> Sara

I have a design suggestion: keep it simple. I think the flame-in-flame icon on a blue background with the text "KinkForAll.org" or maybe "wiki.KinkForAll.org/KinkForAll" on top of it would be a great advertisement, not just for TWF2010 guide but in a lot of of places, too. Front-loading an ad like this with anything more risks encouraging the kinds of assumptive reactions that fuels so much of my skepticism.

Gordon Olmstead-Dean

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Jun 30, 2010, 12:27:45 PM6/30/10
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Sigh....this is a project I'd really like to support.  But the destructive and bizarrely doctrinal attitude shown in messages like this really makes it difficult to either take it seriously or develop any interest in supporting it locally.  I always think it's rather tasteless when someone goes out of their way to do something nice, and gets it thrown back in their face, however politely.

"You're right in saying that advertising isn't typical of KinkForAll since it really isn't necessary or even helpful and can, in fact, be damaging and unhelpful in many circumstances."

So...that's the opinion of one voice.  Since KFA is effectively organized along anarcho-syndicalist lines, it is worth commenting that I imagine a great number of the participants and presenters feel differently.  

So...for the record.  I missed the last KFA event in our area due to other commitments, so I am only a "potential supporter."  If more of the people I knew from Floating World and a few of the other major East-Coast kink events knew about KFA, and made it a priority to go, I'd be more likely to go myself, present, and encourage my friends and household to go, and make it a priority to attend and support.  If they saw advertising about it, they would be more likely to know it existed, and more likely to be receptive when I mentioned it.

Therefore from my point of view that's a wonderful offer, and one that I hope...given the spirit of unorganization...Sara Eileen will follow through on.  I'd like to personally thank Sara not only for her generosity, but her forethought and intelligence in seeing the benefit of promotion and getting the message out.  I think it's a shame that others do not, for reasons that previous correspondence makes it tough for me to see as more ideological and personal than practical and public-minded.


Sara Eileen

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Jun 30, 2010, 2:00:44 PM6/30/10
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Hey Gordon,

I hope you do make it to one of the events sometime soon! If you're based in the East Coast, maybe you can help out with unorganizing one of the upcomings?

Re: the rest of your comments, I don't think there's anything wrong with being thorough, and of course as we each speak for ourselves here, I will definitely be going ahead with the ad, just as Maymay might continue to be skeptical (I don't wish to speak for him, obviously.) And hey - that's ok. Considered, thoughtful actions in line with the KFA spirit may look different to different people on the list, but we do our best and we roll with it :).

I do hope that we can continue to foster a "yes, and" method for advertising KinkForAll events (as we already have!) - one of the goals here is to make our audience as varied as possible, so hopefully we can respond to advertising opportunities with an attitude of "Yes! And also these other places too!" That way hopefully everyone feels empowered to tap their own networks, and also will be willing to push their comfort zones by inviting people from outside of their direct communities.

I'll post a snapshot of the ad to the group when I finish it!

Cheers,
Sara

maymay

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Jun 30, 2010, 4:39:30 PM6/30/10
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So, (and this is mostly to Gordon) in case it wasn't clear, I support Sara's efforts to advertise KinkForAll in the TFW10 Program Guide, *and* that does not mean I remain any less skeptical about what it might or might not do. *I* wouldn't advertise KinkForAll there, but that's why I'm not doing it. That doesn't mean she can't, or shouldn't, so I'm glad to see her following through with what she wants to do. In other words, as Sara put it eloquently, "yes, and."

On Jun 30, 2010, at 9:27 AM, Gordon Olmstead-Dean wrote:

> So...that's the opinion of one voice. Since KFA is effectively organized along anarcho-syndicalist lines, it is worth commenting that I imagine a great number of the participants and presenters feel differently.


Different participants might feel differently? Well of course!

<soapbox>

I'm surprised disagreements aren't more valued. (Well, actually I'm not. Contemporary culture seems to relish breeding a disrespect for diversity and so it's not surprising many people are pre-programmed to be primed for all kinds of hair-trigger reactions with regards to them.) If we are to actually have diverse perspectives and if we are to remain functional as a loosely-coordinated group, disagreements are to be expected and might even be a necessity, and I think they should be treated with as much respect, if not delight, as hearty agreement. And in either case, disagreement or not, internalizing Sara's "yes, and" attitude so disagreements don't impede our actions is a worthwhile exercise.[0]

In other words, if everyone who was ever interested in working to promote more KinkForAll unconferences was only ever interested in doing so with a bunch of yes-people,[1] I would hardly consider that "unorganization," it would certainly not engender diversity, and it would not be a do-ocracy where I felt having dissenting views mattered. None of those things, which I feel are more analogous to doctrinal attitudes than disagreement could ever be, are appealing to me. That's why I find attitudes like Sara's and mine really valuable; it's exactly the kind of self-empowered thinking I'm glad to see KinkForAll continues to exemplify above all else.

</soapbox>

On Jun 30, 2010, at 11:00 AM, Sara Eileen wrote:

> I will definitely be going ahead with the ad, just as Maymay might continue to be skeptical (I don't wish to speak for him, obviously.) And hey - that's ok. Considered, thoughtful actions in line with the KFA spirit may look different to different people on the list, but we do our best and we roll with it :).


Yes, *exactly.* Of course I still have my skepticism, and so I'm even more interested in seeing what your final design looks like, Sara.

And also, Gordon, I hope you'll feel more comfortable doing more to support KinkForAll by acting on your own motivations. My own opinions and initiatives are just that: my own motivations. Again, if it wasn't clear, I encourage you to start, and share, your own.

> That way hopefully everyone […] will be willing to push their comfort zones by inviting people from outside of their direct communities.


Here is where my skepticism is most evident because (not only do I question the accuracy of calling The Floating World's audience "mixed")[2] "inviting people from outside of [one's] direct communities" has been difficult for a lot of people,[3] yet in my experience has proven the far more important and valuable thing to do.[4] And, having been to a Floating World event,[5] and knowing you quite well personally, Sara,[6] I am hard-pressed to believe that TFW is "outside of [your] direct community." That doesn't make telling people there about KinkForAll a worthless endeavor, it makes it one for which I find getting an advertisement far less valuable.

EXTERNAL REFERENCES:

[0] http://maybemaimed.com/2010/02/24/open-thread-when-educators-are-censors/
[1] http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=yes-man
[2] http://groups.google.com/group/kinkforall/browse_thread/thread/86edfd0d870cdb0f#msg_2f01ce2c6511138b
[3] http://groups.google.com/group/kinkforall/browse_thread/thread/2ae6551aadde16ce
[4] http://identi.ca/notice/23197007
[5] http://maybemaimed.com/2007/08/28/the-kink-culture-of-fear/
[6] See reference [5] and most of my documented sex blogging experiences.

Gordon Olmstead-Dean

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Jun 30, 2010, 5:19:14 PM6/30/10
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I'm surprised disagreements aren't more valued.

I think the problem is that mature people tend to value conditional disagreement, and respect experience.  Most of us do not like our projects to be a shouting match, but a collaboration, where various people bring their viewpoints to the table with the expectation of finding commonality rather than hammering out a compromise through disagreement.

Someone can cry "unorganizer" all they want, but if they frequently put their opinions forward and speak as a leader, they will generally be accorded that respect.  So...the fact is that their words carry more weight and people will tend to curb disagreement in favor of listening to experience.

As someone who speaks with a voice of seniority and authority you know that your tone and statements do carry weight and do through social pressure and apparent seniority constrain the choices of others.  You speak from an apparent strong experience.  

Avoiding disagreement when possible isn't a stupid or knee-jerk quality of society.  It's a survival mechanism by which people in groups have gotten through thousands of years with as little violent internecine argument and strife as possible.  Mature adults tend to deal with confrontational behavior or provocation by withdrawing unless their personal interests are strongly at stake.  With public projects personal interests are rarely at stake.

My perception is that you value radicalism very highly, to the extent of taking radical views or courses of action that seem more rooted in ideology than pragamtism.  I am sure in some quarters that makes people respect you and value your opinions and turn on to the good, valid, ideas you present.  But for many of us it is a "turn off," suggesting that the projects you have created will be dogged by impractical execution and ideological grandstanding.

In saying....

"You're right in saying that advertising isn't typical of KinkForAll since it really isn't necessary or even helpful and can, in fact, be damaging and unhelpful in many circumstances."

The message which I get, and which I think many others must get is:

"The thing you are doing is not necessary.  It is not helpful.  You are being damaging and unhelpful to this project."

There is no condition or statement of personal experience.  It is is an outright assertion of fact.  Many people are going to feel enjoined by that.  I realize that their feelings are not your responsibility.  In fact nothing is specifically your responsibility.   But...many people in your circumstance would feel that a responsible use of the authority that you effectively have whether or not you choose to recognize it would lead them to act more circumspectly.  

Saying perhaps..."in my experience I feel that these things can be damaging or unhelpful" and explaining why might seem less radical and less provocative. 

Provocation of other volunteers working on a project is typically not seen as a good quality and does not induce other people to volunteer.  My own personal opinion is that it is "damaging and unhelpful" and I think I could cite some fairly significant examples in support of that opinion.

Certainly no-one can make you do speak in a more measured and less ideological fashion, but...*chuckle* it is also the case that I can pass it along as good advice that might make your radicalism seem to be more tempered with common sense, and induce others to be a bit more warm to your ideas and to the points where you disagree or suggest alternative courses of action..


maymay

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Jun 30, 2010, 5:41:17 PM6/30/10
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Gordon,

All your points are well-made, and well-taken. Thanks for offering me your feedback about my tone.

> With public projects personal interests are rarely at stake.

I should hope that is not the case here. In fact, if someone feels their personal interests are not at stake by participating in KinkForAll efforts, then I would (and have) encourage(d) them to spend their time elsewhere, just as I would do if they felt that way about their 9-5 job, their family, or any of their other endeavors. I hate it when I see people wasting their time investing themselves in things they have no strong personal interest in.

Now, do you have a design suggestion for, or anything else to say about, Sara's proposed advertisement? So far, I'm the only one who's offered her any input on the matter here. If you don't have any, perhaps it's time we continued our conversation elsewhere, if you're interested in speaking with me further about my tone. (A conversation, I hasten to add, I'm very amenable to having with you, but not in a thread on this list about Sara's KinkForAll advertising efforts.)

maymay

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Jul 18, 2010, 10:02:14 PM7/18/10
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Hey Sara,

How's the ad coming?

Cheers,
-maymay

maymay

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Aug 15, 2010, 4:49:24 PM8/15/10
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Hi all, especially Sara,

It's been (literally) almost 4 weeks since I last *asked* this
question, so I'll ask it yet again: "How's the ad coming?"

I can understand that if nothing has happened, then there's nothing to
say. However, if that is not the case, and hopefully even if it is, I
can't understand the prolonged silence.

Cheers,
-maymay

Sara Eileen

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Aug 15, 2010, 4:56:40 PM8/15/10
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Hey May,
Thanks for following up. The ad went into the program book just a couple of days ago. i'm not at my home computer now, but when I get there I'll be sure to post the file to the Google group for everyone to see.

Re: the silence, my bad - in all honesty I've simply been very busy and this thread slipped my mind. I'm looking forward to wrapping up my work on this year's Floating World and having some more time to focus on getting KFANYC3 in motion again!

Cheers,
Sara

maymay

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Aug 23, 2010, 4:45:05 AM8/23/10
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Sara,

It's been *yet another* week with no word from you. Moreover, this
year's Floating World is now past. My frustration with your lack of
timeliness is probably palpable, so I hope you'll understand the
greater issues of why I feel this way beyond the particulars of this
situation.

In any event, speaking of this particular situation, do you think
you'll actually be able to offer a view of what, exactly, went into
The Floating World program guide as an "advertisement" about
KinkForAll? The importance of maintaining a principled level of
transparency--which is in part critically dependent on timeliness--
should not be understated. It should also, I think, be far beyond
obvious to you, especially.
> > kinkforall+...@googlegroups.com<kinkforall%2Bunsubscribe@googlegrou ps.com>

Sara Eileen

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Aug 23, 2010, 8:27:19 AM8/23/10
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Hi May,

For me, the event started Wednesday morning and is still not over - we
are breaking the space today and I am without 'net access besides my
Blackberry. I realize you're frustrated, but let's please take this
off list. I assure you, my tardiness is not because of a lack of
respect for KFA principles.

The ad will go up when I'm back at my home computer.
Have a great Monday, all.

Best,
Sara

Sara Hames

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Aug 24, 2010, 12:23:15 AM8/24/10
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Heya,

Ad! Up!

http://kinkforall.googlegroups.com/web/TFW10%20KFA%20Ad.pdf?gsc=3XjCVQsAAAB9hrlqngy4Bz-bHX_5chA6

I hope you enjoy. Thanks to the folks who commented on it at TFW. Of course like all TFW files it is open for sharing and I would love to see people mod it/use it/remix it.

I sleep now. Have a great night.

Cheers,
Sara

Sara Hames

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Aug 24, 2010, 12:25:37 AM8/24/10
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Er...I meant "like all KinkForAll files" of course. Too many events in my brain.

Best,
Sara

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