proposals

[Randall Holmes]

I'm going to make two official proposals (as always NO hurry).  Both of these are actually things that John suggested (or variations).  I have implemented both in the latest release of my parser.  The focus of both is the serial names problem, though the proposal to eliminate unmarked vocatives has other merits as well.

Proposal 8 (Randall Holmes):  A predunit appearing in a name must be prefixed with CI.  Rescind the earlier decision that we have an additional pause phoneme used only in serial names.

rationale:  very simple:  this makes La Djan, blanu a sentence rather than a name again, and without multiple grades of pauses.

cautions:  make sure there are no ambiguities with existing uses of CI.

A different marker would solve this problem if there is an ambiguity.

La Djan, blanu once again means "John is blue".

La Djan, ci blanu, mrenu  becomes "John the Blue is a man".  (yes, the pause works to mark the predicate, though this may not be a good practice).

Proposal 9 (Randall Holmes):  Eliminate unmarked vocatives.  Any name used as a vocative must be marked with HOI.

rationale:  There are numerous reasons for this.  One has to do with serial names:  final segments in oddly organized serial names can easily be reinterpreted as vocatives.

--
Sincerely, Randall Holmes

Any opinions expressed above are not the
official opinions of any person or institution.

[John Cowan]

Randall Holmes scripsit:

> Proposal 8 (Randall Holmes): A predunit appearing in a name must
> be prefixed with CI. Rescind the earlier decision that we have an
> additional pause phoneme used only in serial names.

I agree completely. Note that I already posted a proposal 8 (meta), so
these should be renumbered 9 and 10.

> La Djan, ci blanu, mrenu becomes "John the Blue is a man". (yes, the
> pause works to mark the predicate, though this may not be a good
> practice).

Yes, I would much rather use gu or better yet ga.

> Proposal 9 (Randall Holmes): Eliminate unmarked vocatives. Any name
> used as a vocative must be marked with HOI.

Strongly agree with this one.

> rationale: There are numerous reasons for this. One has to do with
> serial names: final segments in oddly organized serial names can
> easily be reinterpreted as vocatives.

This is also required if you want to only require a pause before a
name if it contains "la" in it (or begins with a vowel, that is always
necessary).

--
John Cowan <co...@ccil.org> http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
Pour moi, les villes du Silmarillion ont plus de r�alit� que Babylone.
--Christopher Tolkien, as interviewed by Le Monde

[selpa'i]

la Randal, ga cutse le nedfui:

> Proposal 8 (Randall Holmes): A predunit appearing in a name must be
> prefixed with CI. Rescind the earlier decision that we have an
> additional pause phoneme used only in serial names.
>
> rationale: very simple: this makes La Djan, blanu a sentence rather
> than a name again, and without multiple grades of pauses.

I very much dislike the idea of having two distinct pause phonemes, but
I don't like this proposal either. What's wrong with (unmarked) mixed
serial names?

> cautions: make sure there are no ambiguities with existing uses of CI.
> A different marker would solve this problem if there is an ambiguity.

Requiring more and more markers doesn't strike me as very elegant.

> La Djan, blanu once again means "John is blue".

I'm confused as to why the previous idea involving GA is no longer
preferred by you (or maybe it never was?) ("la Djan, ga blanu", note
that I never elide that GA in my Loglan usage)

> La Djan, ci blanu, mrenu becomes "John the Blue is a man". (yes, the
> pause works to mark the predicate, though this may not be a good practice).

I'm sorry, but I don't like it.

> Proposal 9 (Randall Holmes): Eliminate unmarked vocatives. Any name
> used as a vocative must be marked with HOI.

Sure, why not.

--hue la Selpahi

[Randall Holmes]

Comments interspersed, marked HOLMES

On Thu, Aug 15, 2013 at 4:27 PM, selpa'i <sel...@gmx.de> wrote:

la Randal, ga cutse le nedfui:

Proposal 8 (Randall Holmes):  A predunit appearing in a name must be
prefixed with CI.  Rescind the earlier decision that we have an
additional pause phoneme used only in serial names.

rationale:  very simple:  this makes La Djan, blanu a sentence rather
than a name again, and without multiple grades of pauses.

I very much dislike the idea of having two distinct pause phonemes, but I don't like this proposal either. What's wrong with (unmarked) mixed serial names?

HOLMES:  the reason is primarily to restore the status quo ante:  <la Djan, blanu> should be a sentence, not a name. 

cautions:  make sure there are no ambiguities with existing uses of CI.
A different marker would solve this problem if there is an ambiguity.

Requiring more and more markers doesn't strike me as very elegant.

HOLMES:  I absolutely agree,  This is just a caution; I believe there is actually no problem. 

La Djan, blanu once again means "John is blue".

I'm confused as to why the previous idea involving GA is no longer preferred by you (or maybe it never was?) ("la Djan, ga blanu", note that I never elide that GA in my Loglan usage)

HOLMES:  I generally prefer GA marking of predicates, in fact.  However, from the beginning of the language

<la Djan, blanu> was a sentence.  This is a *conservative* proposal; serial names with predicates in them are a recent

addition to the language for which bugs are still being worked out.

La Djan, ci blanu, mrenu  becomes "John the Blue is a man".  (yes, the
pause works to mark the predicate, though this may not be a good practice).

I'm sorry, but I don't like it.

HOLMES:  I dont like it either, but I do think that is what it should mean.  In general, except in the simplest cases,

use of GA should be preferred to use of a pause :-) 

Proposal 9 (Randall Holmes):  Eliminate unmarked vocatives.  Any name
used as a vocative must be marked with HOI.

Sure, why not.

--hue la Selpahi

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