starting kombucha without a culture

[Bobby]

Hi everybody!

I have searched many sites hoping to find a place that shows how to
make kombucha from the start, without a kombucha mother, or a kombucha
tea to start the culturing process.

Asking around, the common response, "hey just buy a mother from
somebody online" but I would actually thoroughly enjoy doing this from
the beginning. Unless its impossible, and the kombucha is some sort of
family tree that was born some thousands of years ago in asia and has
never died.

Any guidance would be so greatly appreciated :)

Thanks for your time, Bobby

[ooptec]

You need a 'mother' or some tea to get the culture, it is a specific
combination of yeasts and bacterium. And yes it's family tree does go
back a thousand or more years.

cheers

[Bobby]

thanks for that.

i am curious though what do people do or what did people to do start
it way back then when there was no mother or tea to do this?

[Jerod Golding]

They dipped their fungus filled toes in cactus flowers and dragon tears. Then soaked their feet for five hours in a peat bog, drained it, scooped out 1 liter into a glass jar and fermented it 1 to 3 weeks.

Dude, do yourself a favor, get a kombucha mother and enjoy ;>)

[Bobby]

I suspected it was something like that.

Surely somebody knows... its not like kombucha mother was just hanging out in a pond one day magically thousands of years ago and has been in the diet ever since. 

I know nobody who makes kombucha, and to be honest, I don't want a strangers bacteria organism.

Am I alone in actually wanting to know the whole process from start to finish?

[jakegest]

Bobby, you are not alone. I have searched the net quite a bit for the
same info and for the most part came up with much the same answer:
"It's impossible"

Now I am no expert, but my guess is that it was started
accidentally ... probably on more than one occasion. (you know,
someone had some sweetened tea laying around and it fermented... they
tried it, liked it, and refined the process over time.)

First off, If you are hoping to recreate what fanatics, fans and
scientists would call kombucha, you will need a kombucha mother. You
won't be able to "Make the culture" yourself, because you are not
going to be able to get every strain of bacteria and yeast that are
present in the culture to come into your mixture just on it's own.

If your worries are simply getting a scoby from a stranger, you could
do the whole processes of making kombucha with a heavy dose of store
bought kombucha instead of the scooby. It will take much longer, and
maybe even a couple cycles, but you should be able to get a scoby to
form eventually (a lot of times I have seen the starts of a new scooby
in a bottle I've bought strait away.. so that is promising). The
reason this would work is because you are still inoculating your sweet
tea with a kombuch culture.

But that doesn't mean you have to give up on making it completely from
scratch. You should be able to make a probiotic fermented tea from
scratch without an actual culture. In my research, kombucha most
closely resembles a natural vinegar culture. The traditional way of
brewing vinegar is using a culture that is called mother of vinegar
(MOV). It produces a large gelatinous disk much like kombucha
(although they do share many organisms, kombucha has at least one type
of yeast that is unique and not airborne). When brewing vinegar
though, it is not important to get a MOV from someone else to start
the process (it only makes it faster), you just need to create the
correct conditions for one to start. So I would assume the same would
be true with Kombucha. If you were up for expermintation I would make
your sweet tea mixture that you would normally make for a kombucha
brew. Then add maybe 5 or 6 organic raisins (or fresh grapes off the
vine if your lucky enough to have access to some) and the the juice of
one lemon (two if you want to be extra safe). Acidic conditions (the
lemon juice) will keep the PH up enough that harmful bacteria should
have a tough time surviving, and the raisins should help jumpstart the
yeast population. Keep everything clean for sure... clean the
containers you are brewing in, utensils you use and whatnot and of
course put a clean cloth or pillowcase over your thing to keep out
bugs and dust. I would look at it every day, see if it starts to
bubble or change at all... and after 3 or 4 days I would taste it
every day to see if it's coming along. The problem with this method of
course, is that the bacteria and yeast you attract will all be wild
ones, very much dependent on your environment (much like a sourdough
starter). For certain you will not be able to officially call this
ferment "kombucha" without bending the truth a bit. Like I said
earlier, they have already proven in some labs that there is at least
on strain of yeast present in kombucha that does not normally send
spores in the air... so you probably won't have that one in your brew.
Also you may or may not get a scoby from this type of fermentation, or
it could take many cycles before one is formed (it really depends on
what types of bacteria and yeast end up in your ferment). Regardless
of all this, when the ferment tastes ready, I would reserve 1/3 of
your mixture or so (?) and any scooby you may or may not have, and
start your next brew with that (put the rest in the fridge and drink
it). Anyhow that is how I would go about trying to make something
similar to kombucha from scratch. (of course this is all at your own
risk, you could end up with a bunch of molds and toxic bacteria in the
mix, although that does seem unlikely.. probably about as likely as
getting a bad sourdough ferment, and in most cases I think you could
see and/or taste if something was off)

With that all said you might want to take this food for thought.
Although I can understand the romance of making something like this
from scratch, there is a big thing to keep in mind. Making a tea
ferment from scratch will only end you up with less beneficial
organisms in the long run. If you have a mother/scooby and brew
kombucha over time, you will attract wild yeasts and bacterias into
your kombucha weather you like it or not. In a short amount of time,
your kombucha will in fact be unique to the environment you brew it
in. if you are worried about not having something unique, you have
nothing to fear in that regard, a scooby will only help by
jumpstarting your brew and being more effective in keeping unhealthy
organisms out. Heck, if you wanted to go crazy you could throw in some
water kefir grains and have a kombucha kefir culture like on one
else.

Hope that helped answer some questions

Jake

On Aug 8, 12:28 am, Bobby <cosmicb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I suspected it was something like that.
>
> Surely somebody knows... its not like kombucha mother was just hanging  
> out in a pond one day magically thousands of years ago and has been in  
> the diet ever since.
>
> I know nobody who makes kombucha, and to be honest, I don't want a  
> strangers bacteria organism.
>
> Am I alone in actually wanting to know the whole process from start to  
> finish?
>
> On 07/08/2009, at 12:23 PM, Jerod Golding wrote:
>
>
>
> > They dipped their fungus filled toes in cactus flowers and dragon  
> > tears. Then soaked their feet for five hours in a peat bog, drained  
> > it, scooped out 1 liter into a glass jar and fermented it 1 to 3  
> > weeks.
>
> > Dude, do yourself a favor, get a kombucha mother and enjoy ;>)
>

[Bobby]

This is such great info Jake! Thanks so much.

Fortunately, I have some mothere'd apple cider vinegar.

I have been creating a tea ferment for the past 5 days now. So far,
there is some sort of seemingly harmless looking white culture forming
on the top.

I added some vinegar today... gave it a stir.

I'm going to add some lemon juice now. I don't have raisins or grapes
at the moment, but could easily get some. Any reason why you mentioned
grapes and not bananas or something else? Is it because of the
bacteria that grows on the skin of grapes??

Potentially these missing bacterias which aren't air borne is just as
simple as adding some grapes or figs. Who knows? I would like to know.
I'm not in a hurry.

Thanks for your wise words and guidance again. Greatly appreciated!!

Bobby

[Contego Bula]

I also suggest the type of sugars you use will make a difference - if this culture is as old as the legends suggest, then it's very likely that a cruder form of sugar was used to produce it.   Refined sugar isn't really quite the same as some of its rawer versions even in raw or brown forms.   If you can get your hands on fresh sugar cane, you may well find that boiling it into half your volume of water first, then adding your tea leaf and cooling it, straining it and then adding your live [unboiled, fresh] water before trying to develop your own culture will help.   This will retain properties of sugar commonly lost during its crystalization process into sugar as we know it today in many forms.   At the very outside, raw cane juice or grated cane pulp might also work - but like grapes, cane skin probably has its own bacterias and yeast in 'good forms' that may be useful for this experiment.

 

Good luck with it ... 

[jakegest]

Grapes actually have a yeast the grow on their skin (most fruit and
grains do in fact, but grapes tend to have an abundance. I would guess
that the yeast on grapes is probably air borne. I wouldn't worry about
trying to duplicate the same culture as kombucha anyhow.

Oh... and I would only leave the grapes in for a couple days, then you
could just discard them.

Jake

[Char Covelesky]

I have been really curious about this too, although now that I am responding I see this post is from 5+ years ago!  Hey, it is an ongoing conversation if anyone is interested, right? LOL!  Anyway, thanks jakegest for all your insights, I think it is all pretty much on target! I think am going to try a brew as if making vinegar (I have in the past and did create a mother) just using the appropriate ingredients for kombucha, including your suggestions, (especially the acidifier and grapes or raisins or equivalent), and possibly the inclusion of honey, which though it has some known antibacterial properties (slowing down fermentation) may also play into the uniqueness of komucha, considering it was a popular ancient sweetener.  Whether I get a scoby. "mother" or not, (and therefore kombucha as it would be defined..) .the way I see it, depending on the taste of what I end up with, I can always add some apples or some other fruit to further ferment to improve the flavor, but in any case I will have a probiotic rich formulation to sweeten and second bottle and enjoy as a healthy exotic fizzy beverage of some sort!  If it goes south it will announce itself before that time, but I don't really fear for my life... except in cases of canning and that area... so not really scared!  Ugly mold and other furry stuff aside, not much can threaten a brew like this in my fairly extensive practice.  Ha ha, having said that, my obit will omit the line about how I died!  LOL!!! 

[Judy Messenger]

Heeey Jake,

You've got it right.  There are few that understand this!  I am an olde biology and botany major, and wish to shake your hand.  The flora, otherwise known as "bloom" that live on growing things, helps consume them when they are no longer living, so much so that if considered they are indeed still alive. =)  Each living thing has it's own flora, yet at the same time share similar species.  This may in fact prompt an inquiring mind to wonder where this flora comes from.  THAT will be left to the higher being to someday solve.  

You can make your own Kombucha, wine, vinegar, kraut, pickles or whatever you wish as long as you don't kill the flora that is intact AND * has not been sprayed with poison or herbicide since this WILL change the naturally occurring flora.

*IMPORTANT

[Motluck Shati]

hey Bobby, did you come closer to any idea? Because I am here sharing you the same interest and I want to start it from the beginning like you. However, I am searching the internet with no clue, so far.

[Nick]

Kombucha is traditional in Russia but this tradition is separate from Kombucha—the thing is known under the name "chayny grib" (чайный гриб) which means literally "tea mushroom". Googling shows that people there routinely grow the culture from scratch without any pre-existing culture or Kombucha. Condensed the instruction goes like this: put tea and sugar in a very clean jar, maybe add some apple vinegar and wait for two months during which you'll notice a thin film forming on the surface and slowly getting thicker. If it gets infected with mould all is lost and you'll have to try again. 

See and google-translate these for more details: 

http://pro-chay.ru/kak-vyirastit-chaynyiy-grib-s-nulya-doma/

http://www.jlady.ru/my-health/kak-vyrastit-chajnyj-grib-s-nulya.html

[Nick]

also, see this for 5 different ways to start a culture:

https://nmedik.org/vyrastit.html

[Tyson Devlin]

Thanks Nick that I as a lot of help! Can't wait to make my own scoby

[peter]

On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 2:19 PM, Tyson Devlin <tyson...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks Nick that I as a lot of help! Can't wait to make my own scoby

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[LIZZIE MOORE]

It is not difficult to make juice kombucha, here in Australia, now.  Suddenly commercial black kombucha is everywhere, tho it tastes somewhat weird due to the very high carbonation that they subject it to.  ~~~  We take a pint or so of good quality apple juice & put in some of the commercial kombucha drink.  The extant kombucha bacteria and yeasts in that commercial brew, then kombucharise the apple juice.  The longer you leave the fermented juice in the fridge, the more it ferments, so you have to be careful not to let it over- ferment. If it starts to, you consume it at a faster rate, or chuck some of the fermented juice out and replace with fresh apple juice.  ~~~   We drink the ferment about 50% to plain water or mineral/I think you call it spring water in the States.

On Saturday, 15 April 2017 at 09:01:25 UTC+10 ooptec wrote:

On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 2:19 PM, Tyson Devlin <tyson...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks Nick that I as a lot of help! Can't wait to make my own scoby

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[Max Alexander]

i don't know who or how you got through to me but i've got to say thanks and i'd like to ay i'll try the 

 formentation== i've got some===juice's to which i've like 

 intentionally  kept in big plastic juice containers == and stored them in  the walkin closets in the attempte to make ==

 blue berry wine and  carrot juice and watermellon== by taking them 

and grinding them up in juicers and grinders and blenders  and putting some apple juice all to gether adding some brewers yeats

 then pouring them into a containers with  caps on them that are like tight enough  that the presser build up has 

 some slow release of pressure when it gets a bubbling creating carbons or oxagen bubbles

 SOUNDS FAMILLIAR TO YOU  THER CAPTIAN == KEFIR   === LIZE MOORE=== I'M A LITTLE SCARED TO TRY ==NOT BE CAUSE== IT'S I'M SCARED OF 

NOT  DOING IT RIGHT AND IT'S LIKE MOON SHINE

THERES PULP FLOATING AND THERES SEDAMENT BELOW   LIKE WHEN THEY SPIN THE BLOOD TO MAKE PLTLETS AND  PLASMA AND RED  BLOOD CELLS SEPERATION

WEL THERE COMES MY DELEMIA= I REALLY WAS TRYING TO BREW MY OWN 

KOMBUCHA AND  GET IT TO A POINT OF == ALCHOHAL== LEVELS LIKE A CHERRY LEVEL==

AND ONCE I DID DRINK SOME IT WAS FIZZY AND BITTER SWEET AND LIKE A OVER FORMENTED 

VINAGER

IF YOU UNDERSTAND======

FLAVOURS

SO WHATS SAY YOU THERE LIZZEEEEE

I'M LIKE LOOKING AT ONE OF THEM WITH THE MIXTURE OF REAL WATERMELLON AND GRAPES AND CARROTS AND 

 APPLE JUICE A TWO GALLON MIXTURE AND LIKE I SAID BEFORE THERES A THREE  TEAR  OF ON TOP PULP OR MAY EVEN BE A TYPE OF  KAMBUCHI SCARED OF TESTING IT LIKE IN THE MOVIE THE BLOBB ===I'T'S ALIVE 

IT'S ALIVE==YOUNG FRANKINSTIEN======https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VkrUG3OrPc

 ALSO YOUR LIKE ONTOP OF THESE HEALING PRODUCCTS

YOU KNOW WHO IS KNOWLEDGE OF THESE 5G  CELL TOWERS??

OTHER THAN THAT BE FORE I START FLLOWING OF ???

THANKS THE == SHYLOCKIAN === MAX

 HOPE TO HERE YOUR THOUGHTS ON THIS  WEIRED SCIETIST PROJECT OF MY 65TH NOW RETIERMENT FAZE OF SOME THING TO DO AND LOOKING FOR ADVICE 

HOWS THE AUS WORLD IS IT BEING INVADED BY OUR SO CALLED SILENT 

 ENAMMIE OF THE CHINEESE MADE VIRUS 

IN B.C CANADA ALONE SINCE==JANURARY THEY'VE LOST LIKE OVER A COUPLE HUNDRED DEAD SOULS WHATS HAPPANING THERE

I'M NOT WORRIED CAUSE THE == HERBAL ADVISERS ON YOUTUBE == ADVICE ME OF OLD DAY REMADIES LIKE THIS KAMBUCI

AND FERMETED == MADICINES LIKE FERMENTED WINES AND VINAGERS 

CATCH YOU SOON OH YA DRINKING KAMUCHI ARE THEY ALSO LIKE A  CURE FOR THE 

 CANCERS THAT TRY TO ATTACK OUR EMUNE  SYSTEMS POSIBLEY == THE REAL CURES

ONION CSCLICE ON BOTTOM OF FEET KILLS FEVERS=====https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=ONION+CSCLICE+ON+BOTTOM+OF+FEET+KILLS+FEVERS AND THE SAME PRINCABLE OF A SOAKED SOCK IN VINAGER  AND WARM WATER  ON THEB FEET AT KNIGNHT== WIIL ALSO BRING A FEEVER DOWN IN WAY MORE FASTER TIME THAN== ANY OTHERTHING OUT IN THE MEDICINE WORLD 

THOUSANDS OF TIMES APPLYED WITH ME MY X FREINDS ===THEY DIED=== JOKING=== THERE STILL ALIVE=

BUT SOME TIMES WISH THEY HAD DIED == JOKING  NOT== MAYBE== JOKING 🤔🤗😷🙃🤕✌🤘😝😇👿👿😎 

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