This affects all Hull KI users
The Great Green Arkleseizure
the provision of the services that they offer, or at least the lack of
it. Now I'm in a position to answer and maybe pass you some information
that you really should know. I have been in touch with KC, OFTEL and BT.
I've spent numerous hours on the phone to all 3 and have emails from two
of them. I do not need an email from BT to clarify the situation. Now for
the meat.
1. ADSL
ADSL will NOT be announced until the END of spring. Spring ends in May.
Then an announcement will be made as to when they plan to install it, or
at least give us access/price/terms. SO there you have it. This
information came in the form of an email.
2. What is OFTELs position.
Big problem here. Somewhere in 1997 or 1998 the people of the City of
Hull, and more importantly the Council for the city of Hull were
consulted. I don't remember it and I only moved here 8 years ago:-) They
decided that they did not want any other operators other than KC in Hull.
Now forgive me for thinking this but... IF I owned a company that I was
going to float on the stock exchange, then I would prefer them to have a
monopoly and look more attractive, but that's my opinion. As for the
people of Hull, I can only ask if they knew the full story. With choice,
prices must be driven down. No telco could enter the city and attempt to
charge more than KC. That would be commercial suicide. Anyway I am told
that we were all consulted and the monopoly stays, UNTIL the people want
it changed(1). There is to be no enforced unbundling. I have an email
from OFTEL stating this.
3. Dual Bonded ISDN
No. It is not economical for KC to run a dual bonded service for the
people of Hull on Karoo Xtra.
So my thoughts are, as long as KC has the monopoly, we're in s**t. The
only way out of it, is to write to OFTEL. Not the "I'm sick to death of
KC and blah blah blah"... If we're to get anywhere we need a structured
approach. I'm setting this running by writing to OFTEL and leading a
protest and asking for a review. I have also approached a number of other
people, who feel similar. What I plan to do is:-
1. Print off/copy a standard letter to OFTEL asking for a review.
2. Get people to fill in their own name and address.
3. Send these weekly to OFTEL.
I don't believe that approaching KC is the way forward. Since they know
they are the ONLY supplier allowed in the city, they can do as they
please. If you want to change it then by all means join me. I'm prepared
to print off a standard letter that can easily be filled in. Email me if
you're serious about getting decent access and choice. Without protesting
to OFTEL we never will.
Regards,
Pete
Anorak
>Anyway I am told that we were all consulted and the monopoly stays, UNTIL
the people want
>it changed(1). There is to be no enforced unbundling. I have an email from
OFTEL stating this.
I've replied via email but thought I'd mention my thoughts on this bit.
Surely the people of Hull can be galvanised into signing some form of
petition to get unbundling on the agenda? As you say no company would pile
into Hull and charge more than KC so everyone is going to win - especially
the customers. And surely with a more streamlined and competitive KC those
people with shares can watch them climb. Why not get an initial petition or
declaration of intent done and then go to the Hull Daily Mail who may
actually print it then pick up the issue and run with it? - You never know
;)
Cheers for the facts though - very interesting - if depressing :(
Anorak
--==<( Jeepster )>==--
The Dull Mealy Snail is a spineless little publication that constantly uses
three words and phrases in a stupid campaign spearheaded by the council, who
in turn are in the pockets of KC.
PIONEERING
TOP 10
INNOVATIVE
NOTHING in HULL or from KC is pioneering......
the one word should have been included is
MONOPOLISTIC
The only option is to move to other, more prosperous parts of Yorkshire,
where academic success and freedom of choice are part of the social and
economic structure.
Untill Labour is out of Hull, *nothing* will change.
Tom Newsom
>The only option is to move to other, more prosperous parts of Yorkshire,
>where academic success and freedom of choice are part of the social and
>economic structure.
While i agree with everything else you`ve said I do not agree with `more
prosperous parts of Yorkshire`
Fact, there is only 1 more successful city in Yorkshire. Leeds.
--
The Internet is a global community that causes the user to sit all day and
night on thier own talking to unknown people who are sat on thier own within
the global community called The Internet.
--==<( Jeepster )>==--
Please enlighten me.....
"Tom Newsom" <jeep...@gmx.co.uk> wrote in message
news:980276245...@news.karoo.co.uk...
Mick (mince_meat)
not print this story why not do a protest out side KC? If loads of us turn
up, the news teams will turn up, and once its in the media others will start
to take note. Now this is just an idea, but its worked in the past for other
things so why not concider teaming together to beat these monopolysing TW*TS
We all need to pull together as one voice is ignored, but many must be
listened to.
thegreat...@my-deja.com
Exactly my point. At this time it would appear as though I am unable to
post into any of the groups, I have no idea why. I posted a reply to the
3rd message in this thread and it has still not appeared.
What I have done is written a standard letter to OFTEL requesting a
review. To that letter all people need to do is add their address,
signature and telephone number. I have took the pyramid approach and
asked people to copy them and pass them onto relatives etc to get them
filled in. I will be collecting these on Fridays, putting them in a
large envelope and sending them to OFTEL on peoples behalf. There are a
number of points that i give people:-
1. At the moment KC can name their price. You have 2 choices phone or no
phone.
2. This affects voice, data, television and overseas calls.
3. Prices will not rise if competition is introduced. No provider on
this planet is going to attempt to compete whilst charging more.
There is more to this than the above but they are ALL valid points. We
need to be coherrent in this approach, as I said it's not just internet,
it's freedom of choice.
Regards, and many thanks for the support.
Pete (TGGA)
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
Tom Newsom
>How is Hull second prosperous? No others better apart from Leeds?
>
>Please enlighten me.....
Hull`s commercial growth outdoes ANY city in Yorkshire over the last 10 or so
years.
It`s on the net, go look and learn.
--==<( Jeepster )>==--
LOL
point me to the information please, the net is a big place.
I am waiting to look and learn.
You must learn to back up statistical announcements with hard facts.
"Tom Newsom" <jeep...@gmx.co.uk> wrote in message
news:980284782....@news.karoo.co.uk...
--==<( Jeepster )>==--
highest truancy rates
highest drug problem.
High HIV infection rate.
High levels of people leaving for East Yorkshire *LOL*
highest teenage pregnancy rates amongst teenagers
highest car crime rate
lowest GCSE rates
lowest employment rates amongst socio-deprived areas
NO out-door market to speak of.
Poor choice of shops
Inept council hell bent on pie in the sky schemes instead
of tackling real issues.
I too can spout propoganda Mr Newsom. Its a valid as yours.
"Tom Newsom" <jeep...@gmx.co.uk> wrote in message
news:980284782....@news.karoo.co.uk...
--==<( Jeepster )>==--
whole:
Top 100 Universities 2000 - taken from
http://www.ft.com/ftsurveys/industry/scbbbe.htm
14 - York
16 - Leeds
21 - Sheffield
43 - Hull (university of) *****
52 - Bradford
94 - Hull (university of lincolnshire & humberside) ****
Yes, I am looking and learning......
--==<( Jeepster )>==--
Average national weekly imcome:
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/learningzone/income.asp
Hull is the bottom Yorkshire city at 344 per week
York - 382
West Yorkshire - 368
East Yorkshire - 351
North Yorkshire - 346
Hull - 344
Yes, i am still looking and learning....
"Tom Newsom" <jeep...@gmx.co.uk> wrote in message
news:980284782....@news.karoo.co.uk...
--==<( Jeepster )>==--
Attractions charging and not charging in terms of visitor numbers for
Yorkshire in 1998
Top Attractions Charging Admission in 1998 Number of visits
1. Flamingo Land, Kirby, North Yorkshire 1,105,000*
2. Jorvik Viking Centre, York 508,655
3. National Railway Museum, York 430,332
4. Royal Armouries, Leeds 394,254
5. York Castle Museum 355,693
6. Tropical World, Leeds 335,570
7. Eureka, The Museum for Children, Halifax 320,000
8. Fountains Abbey, North Yorkshire 275,831
9. North Yorkshire Moors Railway, Pickering 275,800
10. Harewood House, West Yorkshire 271,141
Top Attractions Not Charging Admission in 1998
Number of visits
1. York Minster 2,000,000*
2. Rother Valley Country Park, South Yorkshire 566,462*
3. Lotherton Hall Estate 500,000*
4. Bolton Abbey Estate, Skipton 450,000*
5. Pugneys Country Park, Wakefield 400,000*
6. Piece Hall, Halifax 350,000*
7. Temple Newsam Country Park, Leeds 298,617*
8. Leeds City Art Gallery 277,428
=9. Impressions Gallery, York 250,000*
=9. New Millerdam Country Park, Wakefield 250,000*
* estimate
List based on attendances agreed for publication.
***NO HULL anywhere ****
top 10? Nope.
Still looking and learning.
taken from http://www.staruk.org.uk/
Statistics on Tourism and Research UK
"Tom Newsom" <jeep...@gmx.co.uk> wrote in message
news:980284782....@news.karoo.co.uk...
--==<( Jeepster )>==--
looked hard enough.....huh?
You suffer from the Dull Mealy Snail's problem of suggesting
"hull is britains cleanest city" or "top 10" or "pioneering" without
actually backing it up. no refs, no stats...nothing.
Whither Hull? Poor Hull.
"Tom Newsom" <jeep...@gmx.co.uk> wrote in message
news:980284782....@news.karoo.co.uk...
thegreat...@my-deja.com
lose. Even if we don't win 100%, I want them to know that they'll get a
bloody nose from OFTEL every time they try to screw us.
Just as an aside, I can no longer post from my Karoo account to the main
groups. I can only post to test, hence the dejanews account. I won't let
this go.
Regards,
In article <t6rmflp...@corp.supernews.co.uk>,
"--==<\( Jeepster \)>==--" <lest...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> How is Hull second prosperous? No others better apart from Leeds?
>
> Please enlighten me.....
>
> "Tom Newsom" <jeep...@gmx.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:980276245...@news.karoo.co.uk...
> "--==<\( Jeepster \)>==--" <lest...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >The only option is to move to other, more prosperous parts of
Yorkshire,
> >where academic success and freedom of choice are part of the social
and
> >economic structure.
>
> While i agree with everything else you`ve said I do not agree with
`more
> prosperous parts of Yorkshire`
>
> Fact, there is only 1 more successful city in Yorkshire. Leeds.
>
> --
> The Internet is a global community that causes the user to sit all day
and
> night on thier own talking to unknown people who are sat on thier own
within
> the global community called The Internet.
>
>
--==<( Jeepster )>==--
No more side thread.
Do you think OFTEL will review the situation here?
<thegreat...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:94kvnc$lpo$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
Tom Newsom
>So far no sign of Hull being as great as you say, but i suppose i havent
>looked hard enough.....huh?
>
>You suffer from the Dull Mealy Snail's problem of suggesting
>
>"hull is britains cleanest city" or "top 10" or "pioneering" without
>actually backing it up. no refs, no stats...nothing.
>
>Whither Hull? Poor Hull.
Learn.
thegreat...@my-deja.com
from my Karoo account to this thread, but I can to others. How
strange:-)
If they get enough letters. That's the name of the game. They guy I
spoke to told me that people in Hull needed to write to them. Only if
people write to them will they be able to justify a review. I work for
the Gov in a way and ther'es nothing that gov workers hate than having
to sort through letters and justify why they did nothing. I will NOT let
OFTEL sidestep this one. I intend to count up the letters sent to OFTEL,
inform KC of the number of unhappy people (even though they don't care),
inform BT, and others, that some people in Hull want them to offer their
services and pass on that same info to telecomms trade mags, watchdog
and the DTI.
I really don't want to lose this one. I don't think we can afford to
lose this one. If we do KC will become more arrogant towards us. Think
of this situation:-
If we lose and KC close KI, what do we do?
If we win, we get choice.
I know which one I want, and it's not for KC to be able to dictate to me
the terms as a monpoly. I have no problem with the majority of the
services they offer. It's just with no competition, they do as they
like. They don't even want to tell you that they're installing the
equipment for SDSL (I know they are) which is much faster than ADSL.
Pete
In article <t6s1et3...@corp.supernews.co.uk>,
Mick (mince_meat)
Arkleseizure <pe...@viper.karoo.co.uk> (hope you did not mind) and it seems
that Karoo are blocking it what happend to freedom of speach ?????????
so in this case: i am prepared to get a petation together and stand in hull
city centre. Anybody want to join me in this?? ....
What needs to be at the top of this petation??? It needs have that same
effect as what The Great Green Arkleseizure form will have. Any help or
suggestions to get Karoo listening???.....
Mick (mince_meat)
group aprt from Karoo.binaries so i have posted it in there any body want to
print it out and fill it in
Stick together and we might win this one......
Steve Mace
<pe...@viper.karoo.co.uk> wrote:
>2. What is OFTELs position.
>
>Big problem here. Somewhere in 1997 or 1998 the people of the City of
>Hull, and more importantly the Council for the city of Hull were
>consulted. I don't remember it and I only moved here 8 years ago:-) They
>decided that they did not want any other operators other than KC in Hull.
>Now forgive me for thinking this but... IF I owned a company that I was
>going to float on the stock exchange, then I would prefer them to have a
>monopoly and look more attractive, but that's my opinion. As for the
>people of Hull, I can only ask if they knew the full story. With choice,
>prices must be driven down. No telco could enter the city and attempt to
>charge more than KC. That would be commercial suicide. Anyway I am told
>that we were all consulted and the monopoly stays, UNTIL the people want
>it changed(1). There is to be no enforced unbundling. I have an email
>from OFTEL stating this.
Actually it was really quite funny (in a sad sort of way). Reps. from
Oftel, KC, BT, Local council, Daily Mail and a few hundred hull
citizens turned up at the Trust House Hotel for the meeting to discuss
opening up the area to competition. It turned into a riot and the
Oftel reps. had to be protected as the were driven from the hall! Both
the council and the mail had done an excellent propaganda job on the
public and convinced them that this was not a good thing and their
rights were being attacked.
I spoke to one of the Oftel persons about this a few years ago and
they said they had never experienced anything like it! There they were
tying to increase competition and open up the area to other operators
(for the good of the public) and they were attacked!
The problem with Hull Telecomms is that bl**dy 5.5p local untimed
call. All the time you have that in Hull (and nowhere else) then KC
are always going to win any popularity vote with the public on keeping
other operators out of the area.
Personally, as a business I can't stand KC. We don't do ANY of our
calls through them; not even local calls.... With a 5.5p min charge we
find it cheaper to use another operator who charges 1p/min for local
calls - we find most local calls are only 2-3 mins long so we save
money. Our phone bill has dropped by 70% by not using KC.
The hope is that local loop unbundling will allow other operators into
the Hull area.
-------------------------------------
Name: Dr Steve Mace
E-mail: st...@solwise.co.uk www: http://www.solwise.co.uk
Tel: 0845 4584558 (local rate) Fax: 01482 621877
For ISDN and Asuscom; http://www.asuscom.co.uk
Cash back offers on BT Highway.
-------------------------------------
Anorak
"Steve Mace" <st...@solwise.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3a6f9afb...@news.karoo.co.uk...
> On Mon, 22 Jan 2001 21:05:37 GMT, The Great Green Arkleseizure
> <pe...@viper.karoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >2. What is OFTELs position.
> >
> >Big problem here. Somewhere in 1997 or 1998 the people of the City of
> >Hull, and more importantly the Council for the city of Hull were
> >consulted. I don't remember it and I only moved here 8 years ago:-) They
> >decided that they did not want any other operators other than KC in Hull.
> >Now forgive me for thinking this but... IF I owned a company that I was
> >going to float on the stock exchange, then I would prefer them to have a
> >monopoly and look more attractive, but that's my opinion. As for the
> >people of Hull, I can only ask if they knew the full story. With choice,
> >prices must be driven down. No telco could enter the city and attempt to
> >charge more than KC. That would be commercial suicide. Anyway I am told
> >that we were all consulted and the monopoly stays, UNTIL the people want
> >it changed(1). There is to be no enforced unbundling. I have an email
> >from OFTEL stating this.
>
> Actually it was really quite funny (in a sad sort of way). Reps. from
> Oftel, KC, BT, Local council, Daily Mail and a few hundred hull
> citizens turned up at the Trust House Hotel for the meeting to discuss
> opening up the area to competition. It turned into a riot and the
> Oftel reps. had to be protected as the were driven from the hall! Both
> the council and the mail had done an excellent propaganda job on the
> public and convinced them that this was not a good thing and their
> rights were being attacked.
Christ - mob mentality is scary sometimes
> I spoke to one of the Oftel persons about this a few years ago and
> they said they had never experienced anything like it! There they were
> tying to increase competition and open up the area to other operators
> (for the good of the public) and they were attacked!
FFS - Who needs facts when you've got the HDM
> The problem with Hull Telecomms is that bl**dy 5.5p local untimed
> call. All the time you have that in Hull (and nowhere else) then KC
> are always going to win any popularity vote with the public on keeping
> other operators out of the area.
I'm a bloke - the 5.5p limit rips me off every time - I just go "Yes, No,
Bye"
> Personally, as a business I can't stand KC. We don't do ANY of our
> calls through them; not even local calls.... With a 5.5p min charge we
> find it cheaper to use another operator who charges 1p/min for local
> calls - we find most local calls are only 2-3 mins long so we save
> money. Our phone bill has dropped by 70% by not using KC.
I can well believe it.
> The hope is that local loop unbundling will allow other operators into
> the Hull area.
If only.
Steve Mace
<pe...@viper.karoo.co.uk> wrote:
>I don't believe that approaching KC is the way forward. Since they know
>they are the ONLY supplier allowed in the city, they can do as they
>please. If you want to change it then by all means join me. I'm prepared
>to print off a standard letter that can easily be filled in. Email me if
>you're serious about getting decent access and choice. Without protesting
>to OFTEL we never will.
Pete,
I assume that the thrust of this is that you would like the choice of
using a different ISP/Provider for your internet access, right?
Well this is the situation as we have been told by Oftel.
Unmetered access to the internet out there in BT country is now being
done using FRIACO (Fixed Rate Internet Access Call Origination): AOL
were the first with this package, Freeserve have just announced a
package for Feb.1 and other ISP's are flocking to offer their own
packages. FRIACO works by the ISP paying a fixed price (about £430 pa)
for each line at his end. It's like a free phone number except the ISP
just pays the fixed price no matter if he receives 24 hours of calls
on the line or just 1 hour of calls on the line. The new Freeserve
package at £12.50 per month is assuming a ratio of at least 3 users to
each line; actually, at 3 users per line they just break even and
Freeserve probably want to make a few quid so it's probably more like
25 per line. That way they make about 3K of each line per year - not
bad!
Now the problem is that KC don't have to route FRIACO calls (i.e.
calls to FRIACO numbers) so, being the nice company they are, they
don't! When we spoke to Oftel they said that all that has to happen is
that a Telco/ISP has to apply to Oftel to force them to make KC route
the FRIACO calls. Oftel told us that they couldn't force KC to do this
because of requests by end users: It must be a request from an
ISP/Telco. Oftel suggested the best way to do this is for persons in
Hull wanting FRIACO to petition a FRIACO ISP/Telco (e.g. Freeserve) to
take the matter up with Oftel. i.e. 100 persons in Hull petition
Freeserve to get them to offer FRIACO in Hull. Freeserve then give
Oftel some agro: Let's face it 100 new FRIACO punters is maybe worth
half a million quid!
What we need to do then is get say a 100 people together and then,
en-mass goto a FRIACO ISP like Freeserve etc... But not Oftel - they
can't help.
Any constructive feedback?
Anorak
I will try anything and everything. - I could get a stack of people on
board.
And I'm already with Freeserve so it's even more hassle-free ;)
Pete - do you want to deal with the Oftel stuff and I'll try and garner
support for Steve's idea? If so - I will set up a web page tonight/tomorrow
for it.
Anorak
Mick (mince_meat)
Pete I believe is you show you call it
Mick (mince_meat)
hull
city centre. as i dont start work till the 5th Feb and after that my
girlfriend will take over....
The Great Green Arkleseizure
cut offs lol and I'd prefer a static ip:P
We should get together soon and meet. If we can get OFTEL etc on our
side... I'm also composing a letter to BT and NTL requesting that they
request info from OFTEL. Since BT and the others have been given NO info
at all on KC's ADSL/SDSL exchanges. This was confirmed by a BT manager in
a telephone conversation on Monday.
Regards,
Pete
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Original Message <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
On 1/24/01, 12:33:09 PM, "Anorak"
<Ano...@boomshankers.porkandham?nothanks.com> wrote regarding Re: This
affects all Hull KI users:
Anorak
news:20010124...@home.whynap.net...
>Yes please. I would like to have as good a deal as possible... i.e. No
>cut offs lol and I'd prefer a static ip:P
Static IP? Hack-tastic ;)
>We should get together soon and meet. If we can get OFTEL etc on our
>side... I'm also composing a letter to BT and NTL requesting that they
>request info from OFTEL. Since BT and the others have been given NO info
>at all on KC's ADSL/SDSL exchanges. This was confirmed by a BT manager in
>a telephone conversation on Monday.
I agree - Phone at work 626911 home 652882 (after 6) anytime
>Regards,
Neil (Anorak)