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Hand from The Bridge World
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chuck and teril swart
Aug 25, 2024, 5:54:22 PM8/25/24
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August 2024, Challenge the Champs, Deal 6
EW vul, East deals
West
AJ87
T3
J4
AQJT3
East
64
64
AK983
K982
How would you bid these hands using KSU?
If the auction goes 1c 1d; 1S then responder is poorly placed. This appears to be a case where 3c invitational would be better than forcing. Of course opener could ignores spades and just bid 2c.
Carl WEISMAN
Aug 25, 2024, 6:27:23 PM8/25/24
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P - 1C - 2C - 3C - P
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Christopher Monsour
Aug 25, 2024, 6:29:27 PM8/25/24
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Yes, a 1D response is criminal.
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From: 'Carl WEISMAN' via The Kaplan-Sheinwold Bidding System <kaplan-s...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2024 6:27:02 PM
To: kaplan-s...@googlegroups.com <kaplan-s...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Hand from The Bridge World
Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2024 6:27:02 PM
To: kaplan-s...@googlegroups.com <kaplan-s...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Hand from The Bridge World
To view this discussion on the web visit
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Christopher Monsour
Aug 25, 2024, 6:33:04 PM8/25/24
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Supposing responder had a legit 1D response, opener is supposed to rebid 2C with this hand anyway.
From: kaplan-s...@googlegroups.com <kaplan-s...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of chuck and teril swart <chuckte...@gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2024 5:54:05 PM
To: kaplan-s...@googlegroups.com <kaplan-s...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Hand from The Bridge World
Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2024 5:54:05 PM
To: kaplan-s...@googlegroups.com <kaplan-s...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Hand from The Bridge World
Christopher Monsour
Aug 25, 2024, 6:34:50 PM8/25/24
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And that's why 1C-1D-1M-2C is weak. When responder bids hearts, which he might sell so with club support, it's OK, because 1C-1H-1S-2C is invitational.
From: Christopher Monsour <cmon...@msn.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2024 6:32:59 PM
To: kaplan-s...@googlegroups.com <kaplan-s...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Hand from The Bridge World
Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2024 6:32:59 PM
To: kaplan-s...@googlegroups.com <kaplan-s...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Hand from The Bridge World
Martin Ambuhl
Aug 25, 2024, 6:54:25 PM8/25/24
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On 8/25/2024 6:27 PM, 'Carl WEISMAN' via The Kaplan-Sheinwold Bidding
System wrote:
> P - 1C - 2C - 3C - P
Right. Responding 1D is absurd.
> P - 1C - 2C - 3C - P
Otis Bricker
Aug 26, 2024, 8:35:32 AM8/26/24
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My only question is what the 3C bid means. Facing a passed hand, 2C is not forcing( B-28 shows it is not). So is it preemptive?
Otis
> On Aug 25, 2024, at 6:54 PM, Martin Ambuhl <martin...@gmail.com> wrote:
Otis
> On Aug 25, 2024, at 6:54 PM, Martin Ambuhl <martin...@gmail.com> wrote:
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Otis Bricker
Aug 26, 2024, 8:48:25 AM8/26/24
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That should have been “As a Passed hand, 2C…”
Had not finished my coffee when I sent that.
Otis
> On Aug 26, 2024, at 8:35 AM, Otis Bricker <otisb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> My only question is what the 3C bid means. Facing a passed hand, 2C is not forcing( B-28 shows it is not). So is it preemptive?
Had not finished my coffee when I sent that.
Otis
> On Aug 26, 2024, at 8:35 AM, Otis Bricker <otisb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> My only question is what the 3C bid means. Facing a passed hand, 2C is not forcing( B-28 shows it is not). So is it preemptive?
Steve Willner
Aug 27, 2024, 9:28:34 AM8/27/24
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On 8/25/24 6:32 PM, Christopher Monsour wrote:
> Supposing responder had a legit 1D response, opener is supposed to rebid
> 2C with this hand anyway.
Is AJ87 T3 J4 AQJT3 (C4=14.95) really "a miserable minimum?" It must be
> Supposing responder had a legit 1D response, opener is supposed to rebid
> 2C with this hand anyway.
close to the border, one way or the other.
To answer Otis' question, I don't see why a 3C response by a passed hand
wouldn't still be preemptive.
--
Steve Willner
Otis Bricker
Aug 27, 2024, 11:20:02 AM8/27/24
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Steve,
I clearly was not clear, creating considerable confusion.
My query was about the meanings of the last call in P-1C-2C-3C vs p-1C-2C-P.
I have not been playing for a while so I could just be missing it but the 2C bid by a passed hand is a much narrower range than by an un-passed hand and might benefit for a change in follow-ups. Of course, it is also a rather rare call so it might not be worth the effort In all but a serious partnership.
But I was trying to understand what hands would pass 2C first. It seemed like the preemptive value on weak, unbalanced hands might make passing a tactical loser.
On whether example hand is a minimum, I think we should be reevaluating the C4 bonus for the value of the club T and perhaps the J as the value for suit quality might also be less with the known fit. I have also often wondered about the minor opening range given in the C4 article. Hands in the books that are described as not minor openers make the C4 range stated and it is only 1 pt more than a major opener while the books called for 2. KJXX XX X AQTXXX(C4=14.3) is one example where the books say to pass and that included the bonus for spades. An example of a ‘rock bottom minimum’ was given as X KQX KQTXX QJX (C4=14.15). I have never been sure if EK just became more aggressive with a minor or if there was a typo in the article.
Using the evaluation methods from the book(HTPWB), the hand from the contest is about a point over. It has 13 HCP+ 1 for spades and ‘one’ for the extra half QT. But with no spade fit and no need for the rebid, I think you can remove that bonus and drop back to a minimum.
Otis.
> On Aug 27, 2024, at 9:28 AM, Steve Willner <st...@cjsw.us> wrote:
I clearly was not clear, creating considerable confusion.
My query was about the meanings of the last call in P-1C-2C-3C vs p-1C-2C-P.
I have not been playing for a while so I could just be missing it but the 2C bid by a passed hand is a much narrower range than by an un-passed hand and might benefit for a change in follow-ups. Of course, it is also a rather rare call so it might not be worth the effort In all but a serious partnership.
But I was trying to understand what hands would pass 2C first. It seemed like the preemptive value on weak, unbalanced hands might make passing a tactical loser.
On whether example hand is a minimum, I think we should be reevaluating the C4 bonus for the value of the club T and perhaps the J as the value for suit quality might also be less with the known fit. I have also often wondered about the minor opening range given in the C4 article. Hands in the books that are described as not minor openers make the C4 range stated and it is only 1 pt more than a major opener while the books called for 2. KJXX XX X AQTXXX(C4=14.3) is one example where the books say to pass and that included the bonus for spades. An example of a ‘rock bottom minimum’ was given as X KQX KQTXX QJX (C4=14.15). I have never been sure if EK just became more aggressive with a minor or if there was a typo in the article.
Using the evaluation methods from the book(HTPWB), the hand from the contest is about a point over. It has 13 HCP+ 1 for spades and ‘one’ for the extra half QT. But with no spade fit and no need for the rebid, I think you can remove that bonus and drop back to a minimum.
Otis.
> On Aug 27, 2024, at 9:28 AM, Steve Willner <st...@cjsw.us> wrote:
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Carl WEISMAN
Aug 27, 2024, 2:12:51 PM8/27/24
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HTPWB discussed openings facing passed hands at some length, but I think there are problems.
First of all, the raise to 3 with Qxxxx-and-out has no utility after (P) - 1m - (P) - ? Even if opener has the dreaded 5431 24 count, you haven’t made game yet, and the opponents already had two shots. So though the jump raise is still pre-emptive, it has a higher floor. (As I’ve insisted before, KQJxxx-and-out is a single raise.)
Second, when the suit is _diamonds_, the three-quick-tricks-and-out hands may/should open 2 a la HTPWB. So 1D has a higher floor.
But the really really miserable minimum club hands still must open 1. Should we make 1D the really weak club raise by a passed hand, with 1NT showing diamonds?
First of all, the raise to 3 with Qxxxx-and-out has no utility after (P) - 1m - (P) - ? Even if opener has the dreaded 5431 24 count, you haven’t made game yet, and the opponents already had two shots. So though the jump raise is still pre-emptive, it has a higher floor. (As I’ve insisted before, KQJxxx-and-out is a single raise.)
Second, when the suit is _diamonds_, the three-quick-tricks-and-out hands may/should open 2 a la HTPWB. So 1D has a higher floor.
But the really really miserable minimum club hands still must open 1. Should we make 1D the really weak club raise by a passed hand, with 1NT showing diamonds?
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Christopher Monsour
Aug 27, 2024, 2:20:03 PM8/27/24
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I think for these responses, it's only responses to 4th seat openings that might possibly differ, not all passed hand responses.
I wouldn't change system. The raise to 3 will more often be based on 6 cards, and you'll bid a 5-8 1N, or a 0-4 pass, on hands that might otherwise have raised to 3. But the system stays.
From: 'Carl WEISMAN' via The Kaplan-Sheinwold Bidding System <kaplan-s...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2024 2:12:34 PM
To: kaplan-s...@googlegroups.com <kaplan-s...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Hand from The Bridge World
Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2024 2:12:34 PM
To: kaplan-s...@googlegroups.com <kaplan-s...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Hand from The Bridge World
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