When does an opening become a weak 2? Was: 1s - 2h

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Otis Bricker

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Nov 24, 2023, 7:11:02 PM11/24/23
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The example hand here made me wonder about how folks decide the cutoff between a KS 1M and a KS 2M. I will confess the the example looks very close to 2S to me.  

2M is described as descriptive more than preemptive in the books and as having 3 honors and 1.5-2 QT in KSU and the books add that it should have 9-11 HCP including distribution. 

Simply having that good a suit (at least if it has an A or K) will provide almost enough K&R to be an opening. So what do you need to open 2M? Does the K&R to be LESS that an opening 1M or do they have some overlap and are differentiated by suit strength? Or do people use a different ‘style’ for 2M? 

I think I tend to seeing them as having overlapping K&R ranges and where they cross letting the suit decide for me. Maybe the best way to phrase it is that if I have to choose I look at whether the original KS rules would open 1M and if not, I go with 2M. As the bid is generally constructive played this way, I don’t’t think I have missed many games or slams as a result.

So that example would have 9 points for HC, 2 for distribution and fall just short of 1S  by the book. But it is clearly a good enough hand to open so I open 2S. I would not argue with partner for opening 1S but would need to discuss it with him afterwards. 

One example of 1S in the K&R Article was AJTxxx KTxx x xx so I could be wrong about  this. But that hand cannot be opened as 2S since it has 4H. If the hearts were clubs, This seems a pretty reasonable 2S based on the book rules but do others feel differently?

Wondering what others think? Sorry this stretch out longer than I had intended.

Otis


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On Nov 24, 2023, at 11:52 AM, jerome keslin <jet...@gmail.com> wrote:


2h is 9-10 or more.
After opener rebids 2s, which could show
AJTxxx, x, xx, Axxx,
which of responders rebids are forcing?

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Fred.

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Nov 25, 2023, 7:39:20 PM11/25/23
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The hand in question has 13.70 KnR.   It will roll 4S
without taking a finesse facing KQx xxx xxx KQxx (9.00 KnR)
and normal diamond breaks.   It ought to often have a play
with a worse fit or with less.  You certainly want to be in game
facing most 12 pointers.  I think it is far from a minimum and
should be opened 1S in any position.  

You don't open hands qualifying for an opening 4S for fear
of missing a slam.  Same here.  You don't want to open 2S
for fear of missing game.

You might open it 2S in 3rd or 4th at match points, and 
maybe you should with the heart singleton.

Fred.

Fred.

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Nov 25, 2023, 7:58:14 PM11/25/23
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Sorry, Otis.   I got the two hands you mentioned mixed up.   
AJTxxx x KTxx xx, which I think was the hand you were talking
about once you switched the hearts,  is 12.50 KnR but 
only 1 1/2 QT.  I'm inclined to agree with you that 2S at equal
or favorable is correct.  Vulnerable at IMPS, I am tempted
with 1S holding AJTxxx KTxx x xx.

Fred.

Otis Bricker

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Nov 26, 2023, 9:15:45 PM11/26/23
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Thanks for the comments Fredd.

No, I was referring to the example, AJTxxx x xx Axxx. I am not sure that 2S is the right bid. Just that it probably would have been under the guidence in HTPWB. 

And I do not doubt that responder COULD have the perfect hand to make 4S that would pass 2S. I would have been less generous though and given responder only KQx of clubs and 4 hearts as that is much more likely given opener’s distribution and you should still make if either suit breaks. And when they don’t, there is a fair change of 4H making for them.

I wonder how we get there even after a 1S opening though. Does responder make a limit raise on a flat hand and 3 card support? If not, what does opener rebid over 1N? Not sure it is official KS but I was taught that showing clubs the rebidding spades showed more than a bare minimum opening.

If opener does rebid 2S, does responder just bid game or raise to 3S. And what will happen if opener has diamonds instead of clubs: AJTxxx x Axxx xx.
 
I am sure either opening will work out brilliantly or poorly sometimes. Just wanted to know how others dealt with the possible overlap of range. Or if they felt there was no overlap.

 Otis
 
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On Nov 25, 2023, at 7:58 PM, Fred. <fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

Sorry, Otis.   I got the two hands you mentioned mixed up.   

Fred.

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Nov 27, 2023, 11:28:51 AM11/27/23
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If partner opened AJTxxx x xx Axxx in 2S, I would not make
an issue of it, but I think the telling points for me are that the
hand's 2 QT are also 4 controls, the hand has only 3 fast
losers, and the hand is clearly an opening bid per KSU C
where EK's example differs by the minor suit for Axxx and,
admittedly more significantly, the singleton in a minor rather
than hearts.

KQx xxx xxx KQxx evaluates to 9 support after demoting for
the flat hand.  However, it features 2 honors fitting partner's
suit and concentration of honors in 2 suits.  I think I would
stretch it to a limit raise via 1NT:

1S      1NT
2S      3S

which gives opener the message that responder has neither
4 spades nor a singleton.  I personally think opener has
enough to gamble 4S.

Digressing some and using Petkov Zar's evaluation,  where 
game at MP~51 Zars,   Zars = HCP + Controls + ((a+b)+(a-d))
where a, b, c, d are the hand's suit lengths in descender order:

Opener's AJTxxx x xx Axxx evaluates to 
     9 HCP + 4 Controls + (6+4)+(6-1) = 28 Zars, 
about a queen above a 26 Zar minimum.

Responder's KQx xxx xxx KQxx evaluates to 
    10 HCP + 2 Controls + (4+3)+(4-3) = 20 Zars,  
Responder adds a fit Zar for each of the SK, & SQ,
making 22 Zars, which is a minimum-ish limit raise and
made via 1NT with 3 trump and no singleton.

After the limit raise, opener adds 3 superfit Zars making
31 Zars, close to an ace above minimum and a clear
reraise to 4S.

Fred,



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