Alerting a minor

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jerome keslin

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Jan 25, 2024, 3:27:24 AMJan 25
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Playing imps on Okbridge.
Before starting to play I pre-alerted the opponents that we play 2/1 with a 12-14 nt. A few hands later, after my partner had opened 1d without self alerting, one of the opps complained that we should have alerted that it could show a balanced hand of 15-20. I added that it could also he unbalanced with less than 15.
Was my partner wrong not to alert his bid?

Adam Wildavsky

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Jan 25, 2024, 9:43:58 AMJan 25
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No. The ACBL requires no such alert, nor does any jurisdiction of which I’m aware.

I always summon the TD when my opponent claims I’ve violated some rule. Perhaps I have, more often I have not. In either case, it’s the TD’s job to make that determination. 

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Carl WEISMAN

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Jan 25, 2024, 2:02:59 PMJan 25
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Northern Virginia certainly demanded an alert.

But then they also demanded that my friends who played a 2D overcall of 1NT to show hearts must alert “hearts with or without a second suit."

rbt...@optonline.net

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Jan 28, 2024, 2:09:38 PMJan 28
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Playing KSU, is J, AQ64, K7432, Q95 good enough to open 1D as dealer & raise partner's 1H response to 2H?

Thanks.

Bob Walter

jerome keslin

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Jan 28, 2024, 2:37:30 PMJan 28
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Kindly tell me what you bid if partner responds 1 spade?

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rbt...@optonline.net

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Jan 28, 2024, 2:44:02 PMJan 28
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When I posted the question, I expected that what to do over a 1S response one of the factors that the members of this group would consider in deciding whether to open 1D.  

I would assume that those who would choose to open 1D intending to raise 1H to 2H would rebid 2D over a 1S response.

Bob Walter

------ Original Message ------
From: jet...@gmail.com
To: kaplan-s...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sunday, January 28, 2024 2:37 PM
Subject: Re: Minimum for 1m-1M-2M
 

Kindly tell me what you bid if partner responds 1 spade?


 

On Sun, 28 Jan 2024, 21:09 , <rbt...@optonline.net> wrote:
 

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Steve Willner

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Jan 28, 2024, 3:27:59 PMJan 28
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On 1/28/24 2:09 PM, rbt...@optonline.net wrote:
> Playing KSU, is J, AQ64, K7432, Q95 good enough to open 1D as dealer &
> raise partner's 1H response to 2H?

C4 count is 12.35, which I don't think is quite enough for a 1m opening
bid. If you did open 1D for some reason, then you have no choice but to
rebid 2H over 1H and 2D over 1S.

An option worth thinking about, at least at matchpoints, is to open 1H.

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Adam Wildavsky

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Jan 28, 2024, 3:40:52 PMJan 28
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Thanks for posting the Kaplan Count! 13.0 is an optional 1m opening, so I'd pass this one without qualms. 


On Sun, Jan 28, 2024 at 3:27 PM, Steve Willner <st...@cjsw.us> wrote:

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rbt...@optonline.net

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Jan 28, 2024, 4:10:27 PMJan 28
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If one replaces D7 with DJ, so the hand would be J, AQ64, KJ432, Q95, the Kapan Count would increase to 13.10.  Would that change induce you to open 1D?

 

------ Original Message ------
From: ad...@tameware.com
To: kaplan-s...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sunday, January 28, 2024 3:40 PM
Subject: Re: Minimum for 1m-1M-2M
 

Thanks for posting the Kaplan Count! 13.0 is an optional 1m opening, so I'd pass this one without qualms. 
 
 


 

 


 

On Sun, Jan 28, 2024 at 3:27 PM, Steve Willner <st...@cjsw.us> wrote:
 

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Otis Bricker

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Jan 28, 2024, 10:47:27 PMJan 28
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I would still not open.

As Adam mentioned, 13.1 is optional from the CCCC article. The hand is also not up to strength based on the original books valuation methods and my rebids are not attractive. Seem to remember 13.5 being the clear opening cutoff and 13.25 being the ‘probably should’ point. I think 13.00 was described Might but probably shouldn’t.

Reverse the H & S while keeping that J and I would now open. The hand now meets the minimum book opener requirements.

I am not sure which edition of the book I am remembering it from, but I seem to remember an example like this having a 1H opening suggested. Maybe someone else has that handy.

But this is just my opinion. 

Otis

On Jan 28, 2024, at 4:10 PM, rbt...@optonline.net wrote:


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doug...@aol.com

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Jan 28, 2024, 10:51:09 PMJan 28
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Yes.

The answer to, "Is this hand good enough to open [whatever] in KSU?" is always, what is the hand's Kaplan count?

13.10 is a mandatory 1m opening, so...
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Adam Wildavsky

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Jan 28, 2024, 11:06:47 PMJan 28
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13.0-13.49 is optional, per the CCCC article. 

I’m with Otis. I’d certainly open if the majors were reversed. As it, it would depend on the vulnerability, position, and tactical considerations. 

jerome keslin

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Jan 29, 2024, 3:07:05 AMJan 29
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According to HTPWB, Collier 1962, for a minor suit opening.
14 points with 2 QT is the standard. Distributional points: 1 for a 6 carder or singleton and 2 for a 7 carder or void. 1 additional point for a 4 card spade suit.
With 3QT always open, with 2.5 need 13, with <2QT, pass.
I think this is still a good guide at the table.
So: J, AQ64, K7432, Q95 is a pass 
Whereas: AQ64, J, K7432, Q95 just maybe scrapes home with 2QT, 11hcp, 1 for the singleton and 1 for the 4s.


doug...@aol.com

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Jan 29, 2024, 8:13:39 AMJan 29
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Thanks for the correction.  Had the optional ranges mixed up in my head.

rbt...@optonline.net

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Jan 29, 2024, 2:41:58 PMJan 29
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There seems to be a rough consensus that it would be reasonable to open 1D with AQ64, J, KJ432, Q95 (4Cs count = 13.10), presumably intending to raise a 1S response to 2S (thus, treating the hand as having the "value of 15-17, ..." under KSU B8).

Would the following hand with slightly stronger high cards, but somewhat less useful shape, also warrant opening 1D and raising a 1S response to 2S:

AQ64, QJ, KJ432, Q9 (4Cs count: 13.4)? 

 
Bob Walter
 

------ Original Message ------
From: jet...@gmail.com
To: kaplan-s...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Monday, January 29, 2024 3:07 AM
Subject: Re: Re: Minimum for 1m-1M-2M
 

According to HTPWB, Collier 1962, for a minor suit opening.
14 points with 2 QT is the standard. Distributional points: 1 for a 6 carder or singleton and 2 for a 7 carder or void. 1 additional point for a 4 card spade suit.
With 3QT always open, with 2.5 need 13, with <2QT, pass.
I think this is still a good guide at the table.
So: J, AQ64, K7432, Q95 is a pass 
Whereas: AQ64, J, K7432, Q95 just maybe scrapes home with 2QT, 11hcp, 1 for the singleton and 1 for the 4s.
 


 

On Mon, Jan 29, 2024 at 6:06 AM Adam Wildavsky <ad...@tameware.com> wrote:
 
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Steve Willner

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Jan 29, 2024, 3:41:28 PMJan 29
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On 1/29/24 2:41 PM, rbt...@optonline.net wrote:
> Would the following hand with slightly stronger high cards, but somewhat
> less useful shape, also warrant opening 1D and raising a 1S response to 2S:
> AQ64, QJ, KJ432, Q9 (4Cs count: 13.4)?

Perhaps it's worth recalling a consensus we reached some years ago (at
least as I remember it, but you shouldn't put too much trust into that):
after 1m-1M, if you have 4c support for M, you must raise. (I think
some people made exceptions for 4333 shape.) If you don't think the
hand is strong enough for that, don't open 1m.

I'd open the example hand 1NT.

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rbt...@optonline.net

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Jan 29, 2024, 4:03:54 PMJan 29
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Steve -
Thank you.
I had been hoping to prompt comments on how the requirement to have the
"value of 15-17 ..." to raise to 2M in the auction 1m-1M should impact
the minimum requirements for opening 1m. I agree with you that, on the
sample hand given below, opening 1D & then raising 1S to 2S is so
unappetizing that opening 1NT might well be preferable, even though KSU
A1 tells us that 1NT is "very seldom on 5-4-2-2 pattern"

Bob Walter


------ Original Message ------
From: st...@cjsw.us
To: kaplan-s...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Monday, January 29, 2024 3:41 PM
Subject: Re: Minimum for 1m-1M-2M


On 1/29/24 2:41 PM, rbt...@optonline.net wrote:
> Would the following hand with slightly stronger high cards, but
somewhat
> less useful shape, also warrant opening 1D and raising a 1S response
to 2S:
> AQ64, QJ, KJ432, Q9 (4Cs count: 13.4)?

Perhaps it's worth recalling a consensus we reached some years ago (at
least as I remember it, but you shouldn't put too much trust into that):
after 1m-1M, if you have 4c support for M, you must raise. (I think
some people made exceptions for 4333 shape.) If you don't think the
hand is strong enough for that, don't open 1m.

I'd open the example hand 1NT.

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Steve Willner

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Christopher Monsour

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Jan 29, 2024, 4:08:58 PMJan 29
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This is sort of open to interpretation.  If you are adding a point for having four spades, then there's never a reason to open 1N. With 5422 including for spades.   (One still might with four hearts.)

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Subject: Re: Re: Minimum for 1m-1M-2M




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Steve Willner

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Jan 29, 2024, 4:18:30 PMJan 29
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On 1/29/24 4:03 PM, rbt...@optonline.net wrote:
> KSU A1 tells us that 1NT is "very seldom on 5-4-2-2 pattern"

I think most people today are less adamant about that than Kaplan was 60
years ago. Whether the change is progress or regression is hard to say.

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rbt...@optonline.net

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Jan 29, 2024, 4:31:43 PMJan 29
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Steve -
My limited experience supports your notion that 1NT openings (both
strong and weak) on 5-4-2-2 hands have become more prevalent. I also
share your view that it is difficult to say whether this development
represents progress. But in KS the 5-4-2-2 1NT can provide a compromise
between passing a hand that all standard players will open and raising
to 2M on shaded values -- as on the hand that prompted this exchange,


------ Original Message ------
From: st...@cjsw.us
To: kaplan-s...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Monday, January 29, 2024 4:18 PM
Subject: Re: Minimum for 1m-1M-2M


On 1/29/24 4:03 PM, rbt...@optonline.net wrote:
> KSU A1 tells us that 1NT is "very seldom on 5-4-2-2 pattern"

I think most people today are less adamant about that than Kaplan was
60 years ago. Whether the change is progress or regression is hard to
say.

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Steve Willner

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