What would you respond?

[chuck and teril swart]

Playing KSU you are dealt:

732

A54

J765

KQ2

Partner opens 1c, there is no interference and the auction goes:

1c   1d;  2d  ?

Do you bid 2NT showing 9 to 11 but without a spade stop, or do you bid 2H which, I think, shows a better hand?

[Christopher Monsour]

2H

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From: kaplan-s...@googlegroups.com <kaplan-s...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of chuck and teril swart <chuckte...@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 8, 2023 2:18:22 PM
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Subject: What would you respond?

 

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[rbt...@optonline.net]

As I read B-18, opener's 1D rebid shows the same strength as his 2M in the uncontested auction 1C-1M-2M (i.e., "value of 15-17"); and when responder's 1D response to 1C was on a balanced hand that was too strong for a 1NT response, responder's expected rebid is in NT.

On that basis, it would seem that the 1D responder would be expected to rebid 1NT with 3=3=4=3 shape and 10 HCP. The fact that responder has only 3 small spades and a 2NT rebid would be seriously anti-positional argues for a 1H rebid. The question is whether the risk that responder's 1H rebid will cause opener will play responder for an unbalanced and/or stronger hand is greater than the risk posed by the anti-positional 1NT rebid.

I'd rebid 1H on the problem hand, but with considerable reluctance. I'd be curious to see the results of a poll of KSU users.

Bob Walter

------ Original Message ------
From: cmon...@msn.com
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Sent: Thursday, June 8, 2023 1:23 PM
Subject: Re: What would you respond?

2H

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Subject: What would you respond?

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[Martin Ambuhl]

On 6/8/2023 6:10 PM, rbt...@optonline.net wrote:
> As I read B-18, opener's 1D rebid shows the same strength as his 2M in
> the uncontested auction 1C-1M-2M (i.e., "value of 15-17"); and when
> responder's 1D response to 1C was on a balanced hand that was too strong
> for a 1NT response, responder's expected rebid is in NT.

It is unusual to rebid 1D over a 1D response.
. . .

> I'd rebid 1H on the problem hand, but with considerable reluctance. I'd
> be curious to see the results of a poll of KSU users.

I don't think many KSU users will try to bid 1H over 2D.

[Adam Wildavsky]

1H is insufficient. 

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[rbt...@optonline.net]

Apologies for the typo. I had intended to vote for 2H (reluctantly).

Bob Walter

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Sent: Thursday, June 8, 2023 6:16 PM
Subject: Re: Re: What would you respond?

1H is insufficient.

On Fri, Jun 9, 2023 at 12:10 AM <rbt...@optonline.net> wrote:

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[Ronald Kalf]

3C bid where you live.

[Martin Ambuhl]

2H, No second choice, forcing to at least 3NT. Stopping in 4C/4D still
possible if opener is minimum and no spade stopper. Opener's minimum is
quite good, remember.

[Fred.]

Tough. 

If our partnership understanding of the Walsh 1 Diamond is

 that rebidding a major promises long strong diamonds, I 

am end-played into bidding NT, but 3NT.  2NT would be 9 or

a good 8 HCP, just as with opener's raise to 2M.  Our double

fit in in the minors makes it likely that the partnership can 

stand 4D if opener must pull.  However, the same double

fit also means that partner must hold a doubleton or shorter

in at least one of the majors, AND partner is less likely to pull

than if our fit were in a major.

If, on the other hand, as in my own partnership, our 

understanding is that 2H is, per KSU, ambiguous in this

situation, I would bid 2H, OK with the idea that it is forcing to

3NT or 4D, but resolved not to reraise diamonds creating the

impression of long  strong diamonds.  If partner bids 2S or

2NT, I will bid 3NT.  If partner rebids 3C, or 3D I will bid 4C

expecting partner to know I am raising on 3, since with

4 clubs and extras I would have raised directly.  

Fred.

[doug...@aol.com]

Likewise. 

O's bidding suggests an unbalanced hand with 6 or 5 losers and no 4cM. His 15-17 equivalent will typically include shortness points in a M (or both).

R has 3 cover cards. The honor locations (Inside-Outside, per Jeff Rubens) strongly favor suit play.  5m is possible if O is top of range (5 losers less 3 cover cards).

A NT contract is anti percentage, very anti-percentage if O doesn't advance over 2N. No reason to bid that if there's any other choice.

2H could be on 4 H, longer D and a GF hand. R doesn't have that, so a less ambiguous bid would be preferable.

3C is that bid. It tells your whole story: 3-card C fit, longer D, no 4cM, 9-11 support points. 

O will know what to do.

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[doug...@aol.com]

Adding: reverse R's black suits so he holds KQx Axx Jxxx xxx and the 2N rebid stands out.

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[Christopher Monsour]

The question is whether opener will ever guess I have six major suit cards (or even close) when I bid 3C.  Opener's bidding does not promise an unbalanced hand.   He could easily hold AQ Q32 AK52 J1097 or the like.  KS opens 1C on 4-4 when not good enough to bud 1D-1M-2C over a response in the 3-card major.

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[doug...@aol.com]

>He could easily hold AQ Q32 AK52 J1097 or the like. KS opens 1C on 4-4 when not good enough to bud 1D-1M-2C over a response in the 3-card major.

If I'd opened 1C, I'd rebid 1N with that.  We won't miss any D contract that's right. The actual R hand would rebid 3N.

KSU notwithstanding, I'm likely to open 1D. It would go 1D - 2D - 2N (15-19) - 3N.

A lead of either M gives me 8 tricks after clearing the C ace.  D A, K and x usually provides a 9th, in addition to chances in the non-led M.

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[judyorcarl]

1D - 2D - 2NT denies good diamonds.

[Fred.]

The KSU description in B-18 is " Like raise in major; good hand.", 

which, to me, includes the balanced 15-17 with 4 diamonds.  In 

his book EK indicated that the motivation for opening 1C with

4D+4C is to give the partnership assurance that it will find a fit

fit in either minor.  If the auction goes

1C     1D

1NT  3D,

how does opener show that the 15-17 includes a big diamond fit? 

I'm not saying that your strategy of playing the diamond raise 

as always unbalanced is wrong.  After such a raise, responder

knows that a soft 9 or 10 HCP is unlikely to produce game in NT,

and that a purish unbalanced hand is worthy of competition.

But, I don't think most people playing KSU see it as EK's intent.

  

Fred.

[doug...@aol.com]

Sorry for the slow reply.

>If the auction goes

>1C     1D

>1NT  3D,

>how does opener show that the 15-17 includes a big diamond fit? 

Fair question. Our (non-KSU) solution is that after 

1C - 1D

1N

2C! = artificial, game-forcing

2D = to play

2M, 2N, 3C & 3D = invitational, passable

After 

1C - 1D

1N - 2C!

O rebids naturally (so 2D with 4 in D).

At 2D we've established a GF, a D fit and defined opener's strength and shape. R is in a far better position than in the KSU sequence. 

Disclaimer: this loses the ability to stop in 2C via:

1C - 1D

1N - 2C (to play, per B-2)

This is a tiny price to pay for enabling so many descriptive auctions on Inv/GF hands. 

Further, it's unclear that the KSU sequence ending at 2C is still practical bridge. Today's opponents are more aggressive and they're aware of Law of Total Tricks considerations. 

If R is 5-4 in the minors and we hold barely half the HCPs, the opponents will often have entered the auction before we can complete KSU's revealing little sequence. If we do complete it, we've put them in a good position to know whether to balance into 2M or defend. We've even given them a handy balancing bid (2D) for shapely hands too weak to double. We shouldn't fight tanks by displaying our pillows! 

Doug 

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[judyorcarl]

"Further, it's unclear that the KSU sequence ending at 2C is still practical bridge. Today's opponents are more aggressive and they're aware of Law of Total Tricks considerations."

Your argument would equally well apply to rebidding a 6-card diamond suit.  But it's wrong.

It cannot be right to avoid taking your only chance at a plus score.  If you pass 1NT, the opponents have the choice of getting a good score by passing it out.  You will _not_ make it harder to compete by passing.

[Fred.]

After 

     1C     1D

     1NT

2C may be your best chance at a plus score, but from

the viewpoint of responder during the bidding it is far

from the _only_ chance,  With 5-8 HCP, 5D and 4C, both

pass and 2D are in the running.  And, 2C can be an

absolute disaster when a MP SA field is in 1NT making 2

and opener ineptly fails to take  the necessary 10 tricks.

Actually, I make a habit of passing 1NT at MP unless

holding 6- HCP or a void.  It usually scores better

than the minors and is rarely a disaster.  But, my

partner is pretty good at scrambling 1NT contracts.

Fred.

[judyorcarl]

I was commenting on a system making the sign-off in openers suit unavailable.

[Fred.]

And, I was commenting on such a sign-off not really being 

necessary on the sequence, since you at least one other

plausible sign-off.  Now, had the bidding gone 

1C  1D

1M,

then 2C is often the only place that promises a reasonable fit.

Fred.

[judyorcarl]

The objective of part-score bidding is to avoid silly contracts.  1C - 1D - 1NT can certainly be a silly contract. For example, when responder has no entry except by ruffing.

You seem to assume the opps will bail you out of silly contracts.

[Fred.]

Without the weak 2C rebid, responder has a choice

2D and pass depending on the texture of the responding

 hand.  I am assuming not that the opponents will bail

me out, but that responder's reasonable choice between

them is likely to be non-silly.

I am willing to settle for likely non-silly rather than very

likely (opener could still be 4423) non-silly, because there

are obvious advantages to opener being able to rebid 1NT,

for instance, the ability to avoid the difficulty pointed out by

the original post.

You are right about the virtue of the weak 2C rebid.  It's just

about guaranteed to be a decent place to play.  Its defect is

that guarantees to the opponents that they have a major suit

fit.

Fred.