Transfer responses to a 3+ 1c opening

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Adam Wildavsky

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Jul 26, 2023, 12:11:12 AM7/26/23
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Do you have a structure you like and are willing to share? If so, please post it here! I have agreed to try this method with one partner, but we don’t want to reinvent the wheel.

Our context is a 12-14 1NT opener, which is why I’m posting here rather than a more general forum. Also, we open our balanced (4333, 4432, 5332) hands with 18+ HCP and no 5-card major at the two-level, so we don’t need a way to show them after 1c.

Fred.

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Jul 27, 2023, 11:02:57 AM7/27/23
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I've done a similar search, though not advertised, without much
luck.  Most Transfer Walsh seems direct itself to extending the
lower range of balanced hands after a 1C opening, which has
limited value when playing a weak no-trump.  I've been looking
at the possibility of using it to extend the lower range of
unbalanced openings without diluting the advantages of
opener's 15-17 single major raise, though I haven't taken any of it
to the table yet.  Here's my start:

1C-1T! :  (1D->M=H,  1H->M=S)  4+ cards in M.  Opener rebids:
     Game forcing raises of M as in KSU.
     3M:  18-19, 4 trump.  At least as unbalanced as 5422.
     2M:   12-14, 4 trump.   At least as unbalanced as 5422.
    1M:   With 6+ points, responder must rebid.
             (a) 18-19, 4 trump.  Balanced.  Rebid 3M.
             (b) 15-17, 4 trump.  Rebid 2M.  Rebid 2M.
             (c) 12-16, 3 trump.  Unbalanced.  Rebid 2C.
     1S:  (M=H)  Same as 1S rebid in KSU, 0-2 H.
     1NT:  15-17 HCP.  Could have 3 trump.
     2C:  As in KSU.  Denies 3 trump.
     2T:  Natural reverse.
     Other rebids as in KSU.

Perhaps in your system you could treat the immediate
3M rebid as 18-19, 4 trump and a shortage in OM,  the 
delayed 3M as the same with a shortage in diamonds, 
and the delayed 2NT as the same distributed 5C-4M-2-2. 
I assume you have a use for the immediate 2NT rebid.
  
1C-1T1!
1M-?       Opener will rebid after responder's
     -1S:  4 Spades.  
    -2M:  5+ M.  Invitational +
   -1NT:  5+ M, less than invitational values, or 4M.

1C-2C:  Same as KSU.
  
1C-1S!:   4+D.  May be 5-8 balanced.
     1NT:  15-18 balanced.  May have 4D.
          Responder continues with 2D sign-off, 2C game 
          force, with other rebids invitational.
     2D:    4D unbalanced.
     2S:    Natural reverse.
    Other rebids as after 1C-1D in KSU.

1C-1NT!:  5-8, 5C or 3334.

I might add that if you go to 1C promising 2+ and
open all your balanced 15-17's 1M or 1C, then after
1D-1M, 1NT can show the same range of hands as
accepting the transfer after 1C-1T!.

Fred.

flemnevershowered

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Jul 27, 2023, 8:56:19 PM7/27/23
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There's a book:  _Strong Club, Unbalanced Diamond_ or something close. The 1C opener is 15+. Too many artifical sequences for my taste.

Fred.

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Jul 28, 2023, 9:15:42 AM7/28/23
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I'd like to be able to open the likes of xxxx-KQx-x-AJTxx.
It wouldn't be bad to get a club lead, and the hand has
the potential to be a decent dummy in either major.  But,
if we have a spade fit, and partner responds 1S, I think
it's about 1-1/2 points short of a 2S raise.  A strong club
is not going to help.

An Unassuming Club accommodates a weal NT, but like
most club systems it has lots of artificial bids, though
many of then are Herbert responses or rebids.

Fred.

judyorcarl

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Jul 28, 2023, 11:19:44 AM7/28/23
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13 Goren dummy points. 

Alex Martelli

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Jul 28, 2023, 12:51:02 PM7/28/23
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The SCUD book elaborates on Marshall Miles' "My System", clarifying and tweaking several sequences but without major deviations from Miles' ideas.

The only book I'm aware of that covers 3+ card club openers with transfer responses is Nisland's "Five-card majors, the Scanian way" -- very interesting approaches, but 15-17 NT openers. I believe Nisland was among the first to experiment with 2+ card club openers with transfer responses (what he calls "5542", per min # of cards in suit shown by opening 1 S/H/D/C) but later went back to 3+ card club (what he calls "5533") without giving up transfer responses, and that's what he covers in this book.

Alex

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jerome keslin

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Jul 28, 2023, 12:57:57 PM7/28/23
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Bobbybridge.webs.com

Maybe you know this site.
Transfers to 1 club are described in a weak nt system. Might this be useful?

jerome keslin

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Jul 28, 2023, 1:03:48 PM7/28/23
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Actually, what I entered in Google was:
" transfer responses to 1c bobby "

aholl...@cox.net

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Jul 28, 2023, 1:16:05 PM7/28/23
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Ronald Kalf

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Jul 29, 2023, 2:01:25 AM7/29/23
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I have enhanced AUC and played it for 8 years with one partner. This led to even more artificiality, in fact to much for my new partner. We will probably switch to some form of K-S. Not sure if it will include my unbalanced diamonds ideas.There is bound to be some artificiality  there (1D-1M; 1N minimum 5-4 minors either way, 1C-2C 7-9 no major, 1C-2N for diamonds and 1C-2D „inverted“). If she doesn‘t like that, KSU as described in the Bridge World is okay at least for the minor suit opening bids (but no SJS). Of course follow-up on the major suit openings (and 1N) can be improved.

Fred.

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Jul 29, 2023, 9:34:23 AM7/29/23
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Sorry, for the sloppiness.    I was calculating in Zars
and using 29-32 Zars in place of the 15-17 point range.  
The hand worked out to 27 Zars in support, which is 
about 1-1/2 points short of 29 Zars.

 However, the 27 Zars is about 13-1/4 points, which is
about 1-3/4 points short of the original 15-17 point
range.  So, we'd be only 1/4 point apart on this hand.

Fred.

Fred.

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Jul 29, 2023, 9:43:42 AM7/29/23
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I, playing your unbalanced diamond, you take

1D  -  1M
1NT

as demanding a minor suit preference, with
or without a jump, rather than promising (54) in
the minors, then opener's rebid in M
can show the normal 15-17 single raise and

1D - 1M
2M

can show a weak raise.  Just a thought.

Fred.

judyorcarl

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Jul 29, 2023, 9:53:44 AM7/29/23
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The notion that 1m - 1M - 2M shows (rather than suggests) 15-17 in KS is just wrong.

Axxx x xxx AKxxx is a no-choice opening.  No bridge player would rebid 2m to a 1M response.

For that matter, Axxx xx xx AKxxx is also a no-choice opening.  Choosing to open 1NT is a great way to miss club slams.

On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 9:34:23 AM UTC-4 Fred. wrote:

Christopher Monsour

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Jul 29, 2023, 10:37:40 AM7/29/23
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The first example is worth 15 dummy points.   The second should be opened 1N

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From: 'judyorcarl' via The Kaplan-Sheinwold Bidding System <kaplan-s...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2023 9:53:43 AM
To: The Kaplan-Sheinwold Bidding System <kaplan-s...@googlegroups.com>

Subject: Re: Transfer responses to a 3+ 1c opening
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Fred.

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Jul 29, 2023, 11:12:25 AM7/29/23
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Since after the raise to 2 responder goes to game on
10 and tries on 9, it might be a good idea to have
something at least approaching 15.  EK suggested that
responder should make some allowance for the 
possibility that operner's raise might be a little light
but did not suggest how to do this when responder
has 9-10 points,

Value your first example as valuing something over
15 as a spade dummy, and the second as being
a hair light, but I'm still pretty comfortable raising
to 2S.  The example I give is considerably weaker,
and I would hesitate to open it in unmodified KSU.

Fred.

Adam Wildavsky

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Jul 29, 2023, 11:48:32 AM7/29/23
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I too am comfortable raising to 2S with Axxx xx xx AKxxx. It's only 14.1 CCCCs, but we can add something for the 8+ card spade fit. That said, I'd be happy to have a way to distinguish that kind of hand from those that are a bit stronger.

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Otis Bricker

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Jul 29, 2023, 11:49:15 AM7/29/23
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Ah, a topic I have interest in and more in line with the groups aims.

My memory is that the original books gave a couple examples of minimum 1C openings as  something like, AJxx xx xx AQJxx  and xxx x Axxx AKxxx. In the case of the first, it was mentioned that after you raised, you needed to realize that partner would be expecting a bit more. 

As openings, the first example is a touch stronger than Axxx xx xx AKxxx( 14.25 vs 14.1 C4 pts) but even a 10 or 9 in a black suit would make up the difference.

I cannot find the original K&R article but remember it making upward adjustments after opening for distribution points after a fit is found so those two doubletons should be worth a little more that the 1pt  C4 gives them. 

I would still apologize to partner( It is always MY fault for not holding the perfect hand for him) but am not embarrassed by a 2S rebid.   

Otis

On Jul 29, 2023, at 11:12 AM, Fred. <fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

Since after the raise to 2 responder goes to game on
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Alex Martelli

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Jul 29, 2023, 12:30:44 PM7/29/23
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Seems to have disappeared, per https://bridgewinners.com/article/view/bobby-knows-bridge-web-site/ (which also shows how to get to its old contents via the Wayback Machine).

Alex

jerome keslin

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Jul 29, 2023, 12:48:55 PM7/29/23
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Hi Alex.
Hollander has given the correct link to the site where you will see transfers to 1 club.

jerome keslin

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Jul 29, 2023, 2:52:09 PM7/29/23
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 I believe that the standard for a minor suit opening in KS is 14 points and 2QT.
AJxx,xx,xx,AQJxx has compensating values.
An additional point for a spade suit and 3QT.
So raising responders 1s seems OK IMHO, especially with all points concentrated in 2 suits.



Adam Wildavsky

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Jul 29, 2023, 3:10:03 PM7/29/23
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The Bridge World October 1982


"When supporting partner's suit with three or more trumps, the computer adds an extra 50% to the short-suit count and adds an extra 100% when sure of a better fit."

The basic algorithm is summarized here:


jerome keslin

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Jul 29, 2023, 3:52:49 PM7/29/23
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Otis Bricker

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Jul 29, 2023, 4:17:59 PM7/29/23
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(OOPS, fat fingered a premature send. To continue…)

I pulled out my HTPWB 2nd Ed and it gave AJxx xx AKxxx xx as an example of  “slightly substandard”. But says you have to do it since it has 3QT.  So the raise promises 15-17 but you might not always deliver it. This seems to fall into the same idea of opening a 4 card major sometimes( Examples were KQJx AQJx xxx xx, Kx KQTx Qxxxx Kx, and x AKxx Qxxx Axxx).

Otis

P.S. I had to say 2nd edition since I have not studied the 1st enough since I picked up a copy and there are clearly major differences. Though they do agree here.

One difference I found striking between the editions was that, in the first edition, the sequence 1H-1N-2D-2S is described as TOO WEAK to bid and rebid spades! Example was KJ9xxx xx xxx xx while the rebid was shown as having AJTxxx xx xxx Qx. Wasn’t that the original Roth-Stone treatment with forcing NT? 

On Jul 29, 2023, at 3:46 PM, Otis Bricker <otisb...@gmail.com> wrote:

If you took me for implying that there was anything wrong with Opening and raising, I am sorry I did not make myself clear. 

I pulled out my 

On Jul 29, 2023, at 2:52 PM, jerome keslin <jet...@gmail.com> wrote:


 I believe that the standard for a minor suit opening in KS is 14 points and 2QT.
AJxx,xx,xx,AQJxx has compensating values.
An additional point for a spade suit and 3QT.
So raising responders 1s seems OK IMHO, especially with all points concentrated in 2 suits.



Ronald Kalf

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Jul 30, 2023, 5:39:25 AM7/30/23
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An interesting idea at the price of having 1N forcing. For me as someone who likes symmetry the more severe disadvantage is that it doesn‘t apply after 1C-1M.

Fred.

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Jul 31, 2023, 8:34:28 AM7/31/23
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If you're playing transfer responses to 1C, symmetry is already gone :-).

Fred.

Ronald Kalf

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Aug 5, 2023, 6:21:10 AM8/5/23
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Fred, I know and that is why I‘m reluctant to play T-Walsh. The idea appeals to me after thinking about it for a couple of days. What I dislike most in KSU is having to rebid 2m on a bad suit or not opening 1m in the first place. In combination with unbalanced diamond it might be possible to have 1C-1D/H; 1H/S and 1D-1M; 1N for the awkward hands. Maybe even including a 4crd-raise too weak for 2M.
Possibly including another of my QUC-ideas: 1C-1N showing diamonds, allowing opener to show a minimum with 2C

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