Best method over reverses?

[Adam Wildavsky]

After 1m - 1M - 2R, Edgar used the fourth suit as usually a GF with support for m, per B-12 in KSU, and 3m as a weak hand with only 4M. I prefer to more or less swap these meanings, using the fourth suit as waiting with four cards in M and 3m as a GF with support. In the auction where this won't work, 1c - 1S - 2H, I fall back to Edgar's method.

Normally, both methods work equally well, but I finally encountered the situation my method was designed to handle, a weak hand with support for the second suit:

https://cuebids.com/session/deal/kSXi6Vnz1FvSj8PTzhuP

Does anyone have arguments in favor of sticking with the KSU treatment? I can see that it makes sense in the KSU context where the reverse is often a short suit, because opener's 3m rebid would have been forcing. I've run out of partners who are willing to play that with me.

[jerome keslin]

After 1d - 1s - 2h one can

bid a lebensohlic 2nt, showing 5-7 initially.

If I am not mistaken , using 4th suit or 2nt ( whichever is  cheaper ) is called Ingberman. Wrongsiding?

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[Christopher Monsour]

In KS I think you want to keep 2N natural.  That means using the fourth suit even if it is more expensive than 2N (1D-1S-2H-3C) and falling back on the preference for the auction Adam indicated.

 

The reason is that a KS reverse can be so weak (and an initial response so weak) that responder needs an invitational 2N in KS, which he does not need in standard methods.

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[Carl WEISMAN]

You handle the nightmare deal for KSU: a weak 4=4=5=0 facing 1C - 1H - 2D - ?

[Steve Willner]

On 3/3/24 6:53 AM, Christopher Monsour wrote:
> The reason is that a KS reverse can be so weak (and an initial response
> so weak) that responder needs an invitational 2N in KS, which he does
> not need in standard methods.

Even in standard methods, using 2NT as weak is unpleasant because 3NT is
still a possible contract. An improvement, I think, to the KS methods
is to make 3R weak with good support for R. Stronger hands can go
through 2NT (with a stopper) or fourth suit (without). I'm not sure
that helps on Adam's example hand, though, because a 4-3 D fit would be
unpleasant. Against that, responder's hand is strong enough that 3NT
might be playable.

In general, the KS philosophy is to accept playing wrong part scores in
exchange for better accuracy on games and slams. The reverse methods
are consistent with that.

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Steve Willner

[jerome keslin]

After 1d - 1s - 2h, if you are pessimistic, then opener might have 16 and responder 5, so if 2nt is passable then you are overboard anyway.

So let 2nt be a relay to 3c 

( Ostensibly being 5-7), subsequent 

 3d and 3h are NF and pass also possible with 4s and 6c . Skipping the 2nt relay shows 8+ and GF.

Jump to 3nt is 10-12 and 3nt after the 2nt relay is 

8-9.

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[Adam Wildavsky]

In KSU, and as I play it, 2N is 8-11 or 15+. 

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[Christopher Monsour]

2N isn't passable in KS, but it's not a relay either.   Opener rebids his long suit if he can't accept an invite.  But he does something else otherwise. 

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From: kaplan-s...@googlegroups.com <kaplan-s...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of jerome keslin <jet...@gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 3, 2024 2:41:31 PM
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Subject: Re: Best method over reverses?

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[Ronald Kalf]

IMO Ingberman doesn‘t work in KSU, 2N is needed as natural as others have pointed out. What Adam proposed instead is „cheapest of 3m and 4th suit is weak“. The obvious advantage is that 4th suit leaves more room for opener to show the type of reverse, whereas 3m only leaves pass or forcing through 3N/4m.

After 1C-1S; 2D-2H 2S is available to show 21⁄2M, but this is the only situation because we have room enough after 1D-1S;2C.

If 1C-1S; 2D-2H; 2N is weak with real Ds and 3C denies real Ds there is an advantage with the example hand, but only then. If 2N is natural, it doesn‘t help, because then 2N could also be x, AJx, AKx, AJTxxx or even xx, AJx, AK, AJTxxx. My preference is to reverse in a major non-suit only without a stopper in om, so that if opener rebids NT, responder may then expect 4crd OM. Again this is the only situation where there is an advantage.

I don’t see the advantage after 1D-1S; 2H-3C. Unless I‘m missing something we are disharmonizing the system for a small advantage in one situation only.

As an aside, the advantage of KSU over 2/1 etc. is the wide-range reverses, which makes a forcing 3m-rebid indispensable.