Unusual KSU auction

[Adam Wildavsky]

What should this mean, if anything?

1♦ 1♠

1N 2♣

2♦ 3♥

Per B-5 under Minor Suit Openings, 2♣ is

"Responder indicates a 5-card major with game prospects. The only bad hand he can hold is with a 6-card suit in the other minor."

and 2♦:

"Minimum count, no fit for M, 5-card diamond suit."

Responder has denied four hearts since he did not bid 2♥, a one-round force.

One possibility for 3♥ is an artificial choice between 3NT, 5♦, or possibly a 5-2 ♠ fit. Another is for it to show shortness, like a splinter but with no corresponding ♣ splinter available below 3N

Thoughts?

[Christopher Monsour]

Shortness.  The only forcing bids below 3N are 2H, 3H, and 3S.  Probes for the best game start with 2H, to leave room.  That seems to leave 3H to show heart shortness and 3S to show six spades, though frankly it might be better to rebid 2H with six spades and use 3S to show club shortness.

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From: kaplan-s...@googlegroups.com <kaplan-s...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Adam Wildavsky <ad...@tameware.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 28, 2020 4:11:22 PM
To: kaplan-sheinwold <kaplan-s...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Unusual KSU auction

 

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[Steve Willner]

> 1♦ 1♠
> 1N 2♣
> 2♦ 3♥

On 11/28/20 4:20 PM, Christopher Monsour wrote:
> The only forcing bids below 3N are 2H, 3H, and 3S.  Probes for the best
> game start with 2H, to leave room.  That seems to leave 3H to show heart
> shortness and 3S to show six spades, though frankly it might be better
> to rebid 2H with six spades and use 3S to show club shortness.

That last would be best if showing shortness is a priority, but I'd
expect 3H to show primary D support. Initially it would be choice of
games, but if 5D is realistic, 6D can't be far away.

[Christopher Monsour]

Well, showing shortness is a priority *if* you ahve diamond support.  I'd prefer to show the two splinter right away with 3H and 3S, and rebid 2H with everything else...I'll probably get a chance to bid 3D next round (especially if partner thinks he should bid 2NT next with nothing special in either of the black suits, rather than bidding a space-consuming 3D or 3H).

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From: kaplan-s...@googlegroups.com <kaplan-s...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Steve Willner <swil...@nhcc.net>
Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2020 10:36 AM
To: kaplan-s...@googlegroups.com <kaplan-s...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Unusual KSU auction

 

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[Christopher Monsour]

What I mean is, if I have diamond support and no shortness, I can bid 3D next round.  Or maybe I have KQJxx KQx QJx xx, and partner's next bid is 3C, so I just sign off in 3N and forget about showing the diamond support.  The problem with 3D right away on diamond support and no shortness is that it doesn't leave much room for choice of game.

Chris

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From: kaplan-s...@googlegroups.com <kaplan-s...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Christopher Monsour <cmon...@msn.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2020 10:43 AM

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/kaplan-sheinwold/DM6PR15MB370687DF003BFE90EB1C4241D1F60%40DM6PR15MB3706.namprd15.prod.outlook.com.

[Steve Willner]

On 11/29/20 11:43 AM, Christopher Monsour wrote:
> Well, showing shortness is a priority *if* you ahve diamond support. I'd
> prefer to show the two splinter right away with 3H and 3S, and rebid 2H
> with everything else...I'll probably get a chance to bid 3D next round

I like the approach, but I wouldn't infer it from the KS notes without
discussion.

Would 3D after 2H be forcing? Probably it should be with invitational
hands bidding 3D right away. Maybe for simplicity 2H should be GF. What
hands, if any, would want to bid 2H then stop?

[Fred.]

First of all, responder, who has not yet chosen a strain, feels

that there is still a choice, and so has diamond support.  This

cannot be 4-card support, since responder did not rebid 3D over

1NT.  As such, responder is likely more concerned about play in 

NT than joyful about play in diamonds.

I'd think that had responder bid 2H over 2D,  the bid would show

a fragment, and, by implication, a club concern, and that

the meaning left for 3H is to show a heart concern.  I won't argue

with anyone who wants to make 2H 4th suit forcing, rather than

3rd suit forcing and switch the two meanings.  Playing a style

which doesn't worry over weak doubletons facing a natural NT,

these concerns would be short suits.

Of course, none of this works for

1C    1S

1NT  2D*

2H*  3H

so maybe for consistency 3H should be "make the guess".

I also think that the New Minor Forcing sequences in KS have

lots of potential for confusion.  Maybe I just haven't broken the

code.

Fred.

[Christopher Monsour]

Just because you *could* have bid 3D the previous round on four-card support doesn't mean you *would* have if you had 5(+) spades.  Also, there is no reason responder might not be open to a 5-2 spade fit if NT is not playable due to an unstopped suit.  So I don't think we can rule out responder's having 2 diamonds (e.g., 5=2=2=4 with weak hearts and good spades) or 4 diamonds (e.g, 5=x=4=y).  5=1=3=4, 5=2=3=3, and 5=3=3=2 Are of course also possible.  Whether 5=x=5=y is possible may depend on style but will obviously be uncommon.

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From: kaplan-s...@googlegroups.com <kaplan-s...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Fred. <fred...@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, November 30, 2020 12:01 PM
To: The Kaplan-Sheinwold Bidding System <kaplan-s...@googlegroups.com>

Subject: Re: Unusual KSU auction

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[Steve Willner]

On 11/30/20 1:01 PM, Fred. wrote:
> responder ... has diamond support. This cannot be 4-card support,

> since responder did not rebid 3D over 1NT.

According to B-4, 3D would have been forcing (though the opening
specified is 1C, not 1m). Does responder have an invitational sequence
showing 4cD?

On 11/30/20 1:41 PM, Christopher Monsour wrote:
> Just because you *could* have bid 3D the previous round on four-card
> support doesn't mean you *would* have if you had 5(+) spades.

I don't think 5cS is an argument not to bid 3D. Opener will surely show
3cS support over 3D, right? Maybe you can construct a hand that
wouldn't (xxx AQ Kxxxx AQx?), but then you probably don't mind missing
your 5-3 S fit.

On further consideration, maybe the notes imply that 3H is natural, 5-5
or better in majors. (Other methods are of course possible by agreement.)

[Fred.]

On Monday, November 30, 2020 at 2:42:39 PM UTC-5 swil...@nhcc.net wrote:

On 11/30/20 1:01 PM, Fred. wrote:
> responder ... has diamond support. This cannot be 4-card support,
> since responder did not rebid 3D over 1NT.

-According to B-4, 3D would have been forcing (though the opening
-specified is 1C, not 1m). Does responder have an invitational sequence
-showing 4cD?

-According to B-4, 3D would have been forcing (though the opening 
-specified is 1C, not 1m). Does responder have an invitational sequence 
-showing 4cD?  

The sequence

1D     1S

2X      3D

is going  to be invitational.   I wouldn't say it promises 4 diamonds when X= D.

 

On 11/30/20 1:41 PM, Christopher Monsour wrote:
> Just because you *could* have bid 3D the previous round on four-card
> support doesn't mean you *would* have if you had 5(+) spades.

I don't think 5cS is an argument not to bid 3D. Opener will surely show
3cS support over 3D, right? Maybe you can construct a hand that
wouldn't (xxx AQ Kxxxx AQx?), but then you probably don't mind missing
your 5-3 S fit.

-On further consideration, maybe the notes imply that 3H is natural, 5-5
-or better in majors. (Other methods are of course possible by agreement.)

 -On further consideration, maybe the notes imply that 3H is natural, 5-5 

-or better in majors. (Other methods are of course possible by agreement.) 

 

Over 1NT, with a purish game-going 5-5 in the majors, responder rebids 3H with slam 

interest, 4H without.   With impure game-going 5-5 and weak hearts responder bids 2H

and a weak 5-card major as a 4-carder.  With an invitational 5-5 responder 

bids 2H, rebids 3H over opener's 2 spades, and places the contract over the other

rebids.   I don't think you're going to get an unbiddable 5-5 in the majors if you

reserve the OP for something else.

Fred.

[Steve Willner]

On 12/1/20 2:47 PM, Fred. wrote:
> The sequence
> 1D     1S
> 2X      3D
> is going  to be invitational.   I wouldn't say it promises 4 diamonds
> when X= D.

3D is invitational if X=D. I agree it doesn't promise 4-card support.
No other X has an invitational 3D. After 2C, 3D is forcing (B-14).
After 2H, 3D is weak (B-12). After 2S, 3D is GF (B-9). After 2NT,
given B-23, I think 3D is GF.

The original auction was 1D-1S-1NT. Does responder have any
invitational D bids in that one?

[Fred.]

Sorry.  I dropped a line in the sequence, as I noted in my follow-up to my

post:

1D     1S

1NT   2C

2X     3D   (where X is a suit bid )

is invitational per B-5:  "Over a minimum reply, responder's only forcing

continuations are jumps or OM."

Note that you generally only want for game in  a minor when

the minor delivers 3 more tricks than NT.  So, my own thinking, and, 

perhaps, EK's, is that you shouldn't be inviting in a minor when all you

have is 4-card suits. 

I have a similar feeling about the auction

1D     1S

1NT   3D,

As opener, I see responder as distributional,  and

should be pleased to show Hx or Hxx fit for spades.

Fred.

[Steve Willner]

On 12/4/20 10:40 AM, Fred. wrote:
> 1D     1S
> 1NT   2C
> 2X     3D   (where X is a suit bid )
>
> is invitational per B-5:  "Over a minimum reply, responder's only forcing
> continuations are jumps or OM."

If X=D, I agree that's invitational. That's not true of others, though
the 2C itself already promised invitational values. The problem is that
2C shows 5cS. The original question was whether responder has an
invitational D sequence when holding only 4cS.

> Note that you generally only want for game in  a minor when
> the minor delivers 3 more tricks than NT.  So, my own thinking, and,
> perhaps, EK's, is that you shouldn't be inviting in a minor when all you
> have is 4-card suits.

I agree with that. Responder presumably has 4cS, longer D, and
invitational values. Is there an invitational sequence, or does
responder have to make a unilateral game/no game decision?

> I have a similar feeling about the auction
> 1D     1S
> 1NT   3D,
> As opener, I see responder as distributional,

Agreed on that, and I'd add probably not 5cS. 3D is forcing per B-5 but
only promises 4c support. I think it delivers 5c except when holding a
weak 5cM or 4441 or 4144.

> and should be pleased to show Hx or Hxx fit for spades.

With responder holding only 4cS, I'm not sure why you'd want to show Hx
support. I'd show xxx if the rest of my hand made me think 4S in a 4-3
might be the right game (say xxx xx AKJx AKxx).