A question about C-12

[chuck and teril swart]

Suppose that the auction goes:

1S  2H;

2S  3S;

Is 3S forcing? KSU doesn't address this and older sources say that a new suit is forcing by responder, suggesting that 3S is not forcing.

[jerome keslin]

KSU suggests that 1s - 2h is 9+.

So 1s-2h-2s-3s should be an invite.

To set up a force bid  3rd suit forcing .

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[Ronald Kalf]

Before the Update 2H was forcing unless rebid just like 1M-2m. 1S-2H is one of the most awkward sequences and I never liked overloading it even more. IMO 3S should be forcing and 2H should deny a limit raise. 

Today I would go back to the original or better still play 1S-3H as invitational and 1S-2H as unconditionally gameforcing. Weaker hands can be handledby Llisa, Bart, Maggie or Gazzilli.

[jerome keslin]

Maggie.

Excuse my ignorance Ronald but who is Maggie ( Thatcher ? ). Couldn't find it on Google?

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[judyorcarl]

C-12 is badly thought out. Most egregiously, an opener with 12-14 and four hearts has no bid. But I don't think that is relevant to this question.

If 3S is forcing, what is responder to do with 11-12 and 3=5=3=2? Suppress the hearts? That is the modern heresy that playing a 5-3 fit while missing a 5-5 is a trivial matter.

[judyorcarl]

In no version of K-S was 1S - 3H invitational.

[Christopher Monsour]

I have a way to make 1S-2H-2S natural and non-forcing that works well.   I have posted it here in the past and will do so again when I have time. 

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From: 'judyorcarl' via The Kaplan-Sheinwold Bidding System <kaplan-s...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2023 8:32:19 AM
To: The Kaplan-Sheinwold Bidding System <kaplan-s...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: A question about C-12

 

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[judyorcarl]

Sorry. I read the post carelessly.

[Fred.]

Agree,  What's more, the hands in question do not qualify

for a 3S bid having 3-card support and no singleton.

Fred.

[Ronald Kalf]

Maggie belongs to the Simpson family and another variant of Lisa and Bart.

[Ronald Kalf]

My suggestion is that a 3crd limit raise goes through F1N. If opener doesn‘t rebid 2H, we play in H, otherwise in S. WTP?

[jerome keslin]

Don't you mean, that if opener DOES rebid hearts, then we play in hearts.

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[jerome keslin]

So responder responds 1nt say with xxx, AKxxx, xxx, Kx ?

Now opener rebids 2c with AKxxx, QJx, xx, QJx

4h is now the optimal contract i think (or 3h+1).

Or do you open 1nt with that hand?

[Christopher Monsour]

Here we go:

After 1S-2H, all of 2S, 2N, and 3H are non-forcing.  (I usually use this in the context of a strong club system, so having 4C and 4D as the only forcing ways to raise hearts is not so bad).  2N is a narrower range (around 12-13 HCP) whereas 2S could bw shapely garbage, or an 11 count you decided to open (translating ranges here to KSU ranges).

After 1S-2H-2S (NF, could be trash):

2N is non-forcing and natural but invitational.  Opener can try to sign off in a suit other than hearts.  3H is COG with 6-7 spades.

3C is GF with 4+ in a minor.  (Details below)

3D is 6+ hearts, invite or better.  

3H is exactly 2 spades, invite or better

3S is 3+ spades GF

3N, 4H, 4S, 4N all natural

4C, 4D splinters

After 1S-2H-2S-3C-

3D = 4+

      3H agrees diamonds, 3S clubs with 2 spades, 4D RKC diamonds, 4S non-forcing with a diamond fit, others natural

3H = 4+ ciubs

      3S agrees clubs, 4C RKC clubs, 4S non-forcing with club fit.  Others natural

3S = 6+

3N, 4N else

After 1S-2H-2N (NF but highly invitational)

3C = 4+D GF or 5+D GI ;  now 3D is 2-3 Ds.  All other bids show a diamond fit.

3D = 6+H GI+ (3H is only below game place to stop)

3H = 4+C GF

3S = 3+S GF

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From: kaplan-s...@googlegroups.com <kaplan-s...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Christopher Monsour <cmon...@msn.com>
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2023 7:34 AM
To: kaplan-s...@googlegroups.com <kaplan-s...@googlegroups.com>

Subject: Re: A question about C-12

I have a way to make 1S-2H-2S natural and non-forcing that works well.   I have posted it here in the past and will do so again when I have time. 

Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
Get Outlook for Android

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From: 'judyorcarl' via The Kaplan-Sheinwold Bidding System <kaplan-s...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2023 8:32:19 AM
To: The Kaplan-Sheinwold Bidding System <kaplan-s...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: A question about C-12

 

C-12 is badly thought out. Most egregiously, an opener with 12-14 and four hearts has no bid. But I don't think that is relevant to this question.

If 3S is forcing, what is responder to do with 11-12 and 3=5=3=2? Suppress the hearts? That is the modern heresy that playing a 5-3 fit while missing a 5-5 is a trivial matter.

On Thursday, September 14, 2023 at 7:06:35 PM UTC-4 chuck swart wrote:

Suppose that the auction goes:

1S  2H;

2S  3S;

Is 3S forcing? KSU doesn't address this and older sources say that a new suit is forcing by responder, suggesting that 3S is not forcing.

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[judyorcarl]

This is ingenious. My reservation is that opener can never show a strong 5-card suit.

[Christopher Monsour]

It also was admittedly designed in the context of a strong club system.  I have found that the KSU approach to major-suit openings works well in that context, where playing 2/1 GF results in not responding at the two level often enough.

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From: 'judyorcarl' via The Kaplan-Sheinwold Bidding System <kaplan-s...@googlegroups.com>

Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2023 1:01 PM

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[Ronald Kalf]

Of course, sorry!