Roth-Stone reverse
flemnevershowered
Years ago, puzzling over KSU and trying to assign hand types for
various calls, I wondered 'what the heck does he mean by "Roth-Stone
reverse." ' Still do, so can someone help me out?
Regards and Happy Trails,
Scott Needham
Boulder, Colorado, USA
Otis Bricker
give you a specific example but if memory serves, in Roth-Stone, a
reverse was a STRONG bid. Game Force! "What only a 20 count! Your a bit
light aren't you?" big bid.
Very different from the KS, "it was only 14 but my suit was so good",
reverse on xxx x AQT AKJTxx described in B-10.
Otis
flemnevershowered
|give you a specific example but if memory serves, in Roth-Stone, a
|reverse was a STRONG bid. Game Force! "What only a 20 count! Your a
|bit light aren't you?" big bid.
So I'd like to ask how folk would handle this: Kxx-K-AKJx-AKQxx. I
avoid opening 2-suited hands 2C, but does this one push the limit?
Then after1C-1H/2D-2H/3NT, what would a good KSU responder be thinking
with xxx-AQJxx-Qx-xxx?
Regards and Happy Trails,
Scott Needham,
Boulder, Colorado, USA
judyorcarl
with 1-bids. But it seems to me that 3NT is what you bid without the
heart K. And it categorically removes any opportunity for responder
to show values. You should torture him again with 2S. The Book gives
no indication how responder now shows strength or weakness. I suppose
3H might then show a heart bust and 3C a semi-artificial negative with
only 5 hearts. If that is right, then you're stuck with 4C.
Infuriating, since the diamond queen is your most important card!
Carl
On Mar 15, 9:25 am, flemnevershowered <jsn_color...@comcast.net>
wrote:
Steve Willner
> So I'd like to ask how folk would handle this: Kxx-K-AKJx-AKQxx. I
> avoid opening 2-suited hands 2C, but does this one push the limit?
Unlike other reverses in KS, a minor-suit reverse is very strong. I
think this hand is OK for one, but it pushes the upper limit. Still, 2C
with a primary minor is even stronger in KS, and I don't think this hand
with four losers is quite strong enough.
> Then after1C-1H/2D-2H/3NT, what would a good KSU responder be thinking
> with xxx-AQJxx-Qx-xxx?
Like Carl, I think opener is too strong for 3NT; I agree with his 2S
rebid instead. I don't think KS defines further followups, but
responder certainly has to show strength. Probably the best way to do
that is a semi-artificial 3S, but you are in uncharted territory. If
opener does rebid 3NT, I think responder is strong enough to raise to
4NT. The reverse is already strong, and 3NT has to be stronger than a
passable 2NT rebid.
Personally, I'm not fond of the KS (and BWS) "automatic" rebid of a
five-card suit. We don't rebid five-card suits in other circumstances
unless there's no good alternative, so why do so after a reverse? In my
preferred methods, responding 2S to the reverse would show a good hand
with no spade stopper and ambiguous heart length (but not a semi-solid
suit). After that, the auction should reach 6NT on power. Ideally
opener will ask for key cards at some point, maybe immediately.
Alex Martelli
>
> flemnevershowered wrote:
> > So I'd like to ask how folk would handle this: Kxx-K-AKJx-AKQxx. I
> > avoid opening 2-suited hands 2C, but does this one push the limit?
>
> Unlike other reverses in KS, a minor-suit reverse is very strong. I
Not that this has much to do with this hand, but...:
Naaah...! A club 1-suiter just barely too good for 1C-then-2C, with
something like 2-2-3-6 shape and good D tops, will definitely do "a
minor-suit reverse" even without being "very strong" -- indeed, with
exactly the same minimum strength as you might have for a reverse from
C into H, say, over a 1S response. There's no real difference in the
lower limit of a 1C opener's reverses to 2D or 2H, on a 1S response,
in other words.
> think this hand is OK for one, but it pushes the upper limit. Still, 2C
> with a primary minor is even stronger in KS, and I don't think this hand
> with four losers is quite strong enough.
I don't think this hand "pushes the upper limit" of a 1C opener, as
the bare K is worth little, a priori. This just ISN'T a 2C opener.
> > Then after1C-1H/2D-2H/3NT, what would a good KSU responder be thinking
> > with xxx-AQJxx-Qx-xxx?
>
> Like Carl, I think opener is too strong for 3NT; I agree with his 2S
> rebid instead. I don't think KS defines further followups, but
Agreed on this point.
> Personally, I'm not fond of the KS (and BWS) "automatic" rebid of a
> five-card suit. We don't rebid five-card suits in other circumstances
> unless there's no good alternative, so why do so after a reverse? In my
Because it's cheap and gives a lot of useful shape definition while
allowing opener a lot of space to keep describing his hand (in
particular, it's very useful to have responder rebids like 2S _deny_ a
5-card major).
Alex
Steve Willner
From: "Alex Martelli" <ale...@gmail.com>
> Naaah...! A club 1-suiter just barely too good for 1C-then-2C, with
> something like 2-2-3-6 shape and good D tops, will definitely do "a
> minor-suit reverse" even without being "very strong"
OK. "Very strong" was an overstatement, but given the sound 1m openers
in KS, a minor suit reverse isn't a joke.
> There's no real difference in the
> lower limit of a 1C opener's reverses to 2D or 2H, on a 1S response,
Fair enough.
SW> Personally, I'm not fond of the KS (and BWS) "automatic" rebid of a
SW> five-card suit. We don't rebid five-card suits in other circumstances
SW> unless there's no good alternative, so why do so after a reverse?
> Because it's cheap and gives a lot of useful shape definition
Where we disagree is on "a lot" and "useful," especially the latter. If
we have a 5-3 fit, we'll find it whether responder rebids the suit or
not. And if we don't, what's the point of rebidding the suit? Helping
the opponents?
In contrast, a non-forcing rebid of responder's suit is my idea of
something useful. Sometimes it's right to play in responder's suit at
the two-level, especially if opener's reverses can be light.
> allowing opener a lot of space to keep describing his hand (in
> particular, it's very useful to have responder rebids like 2S _deny_ a
> 5-card major).
I don't understand why. If opener's reverse was based on support for
responder's suit, he can bid it on the third round. If it was based on
something else, limiting responder's strength and shape seems more
important.
Of course my view is a direct contrast to standard KS, so view it with
appropriate skepticism.
Kees Schaafsma
denies a 5-card M; if opener continues with 3S it shows
a Roth-Stone reverse. If 3m could conceal a 5-card spade
this inference is not available, 3S is then only a try for a spade fit.
Opener's reverse could be light, true, but only with a good 6-card minor.
There is no reason to expect that opener's good suit will play 2 tricks
worse than responder's so-so 6-card major after 1m-1S;2R-2S (NF)
With a bad 6-card minor opener could and probably should rebid 1N on
a 2-2-3-6.
Regards
Kees
judyorcarl
only signoff after a reverse. Could be singleton.
So partner opens 1C and you have Qxxx, Qxxx, Qxxxx, - . You respond
1H and hear 2D. I don't see passing, because 5D isn't hopeless yet.
But do you count your club void as full value and raise diamonds? Or
do you sign off in 3C? If you lack the diamond Q, do you pass the
forcing 2D (you've improved the partscore)?
Carl
On Mar 20, 6:00 am, "Kees Schaafsma" <kschy...@tomaatnet.nl> wrote:
> It's very valuable that 1m-1S;2R-3m (only sign-off)
> denies a 5-card M; if opener continues with 3S it shows
> a Roth-Stone reverse. If 3m could conceal a 5-card spade
> this inference is not available, 3S is then only a try for a spade fit.
>
> Opener's reverse could be light, true, but only with a good 6-card minor.
> There is no reason to expect that opener's good suit will play 2 tricks
> worse than responder's so-so 6-card major after 1m-1S;2R-2S (NF)
> With a bad 6-card minor opener could and probably should rebid 1N on
> a 2-2-3-6.
>
> Regards
> Kees
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Steve Willner" <swill...@nhcc.net>
> To: <kaplan-s...@googlegroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2008 3:11 AM
> Subject: Re: Roth-Stone reverse
>
> > SW> Unlike other reverses in KS, a minor-suit reverse is very strong.
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
Bo-Yin Yang
A point that needs clarification in the Book. It says the 3m is the
only signoff after a reverse. Could be singleton.
So partner opens 1C and you have Qxxx, Qxxx, Qxxxx, - . You respond
1H and hear 2D. I don't see passing
In the book, this hand respond 1S, not 1H, and rebids 2H after 2D. Next question :)
judyorcarl
Carl
Bo-Yin Yang
judyorcarl
> denies a 5-card M; if opener continues with 3S it shows
> a Roth-Stone reverse. If 3m could conceal a 5-card spade
> this inference is not available, 3S is then only a try for a spade fit.
>
> Opener's reverse could be light, true, but only with a good 6-card minor.
HHxx in the reverse suit, and HHxxx in the opening suit.
But any 15+ with fewer than 4 in responder's suit, singleton in one
side suit, and substantial high card holding in the other side suit
has no alternative but a simple bid in the strong side suit or
fragment.
> There is no reason to expect that opener's good suit will play 2 tricks
> worse than responder's so-so 6-card major after 1m-1S;2R-2S (NF)
> With a bad 6-card minor opener could and probably should rebid 1N on
> a 2-2-3-6.
>
> Regards
> Kees
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Steve Willner" <swill...@nhcc.net>
> To: <kaplan-s...@googlegroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2008 3:11 AM
> Subject: Re: Roth-Stone reverse
>
> > SW> Unlike other reverses in KS, a minor-suit reverse is very strong.
>
Adam Wildavsky
Hello,On Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 11:44 PM, judyorcarl <judyo...@verizon.net> wrote:
Your auction is game-forcing and promises 5+ spades.
Carl
> On Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 11:31 PM, judyorcarl <judyorc...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > A point that needs clarification in the Book. It says the 3m is the
> > only signoff after a reverse. Could be singleton.
>
> > So partner opens 1C and you have Qxxx, Qxxx, Qxxxx, - . You respond
> > 1H and hear 2D. I don't see passing
>
> In the book, this hand respond 1S, not 1H, and rebids 2H after 2D. Next
> question :)Sorry, I had a braino, guys ....
I'm not so sure of that!
As I recall Edgar told me that 2H shows H values and does not promise a rebid. Yes, it might conceal a GF with support for opener's minor, but I don't think it is itself a GF.
--
Adam Wildavsky <ad...@tameware.com> www.tameware.com
judyorcarl
certainly game-forcing, denies a heart stopper, and in effect suggests
a *club* game.
Carl
judyorcarl
4 cards in M, not stopper in 4th suit; not fit for R, so usually
length in m but too good for 3 m. Becomes natural if rebid.
Carl
On Mar 20, 11:54 am, "Adam Wildavsky" <a...@tameware.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 11:51 AM, Bo-Yin Yang <b...@moscito.org> wrote:
> > Hello,
>
>
> > > Your auction is game-forcing and promises 5+ spades.
>
> > > Carl
> > > On Mar 20, 11:34 am, "Bo-Yin Yang" <b...@moscito.org> wrote:
> > > > Hello,
>
> > > > On Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 11:31 PM, judyorcarl <judyorc...@verizon.net>
> > > wrote:
>
> > > > > A point that needs clarification in the Book. It says the 3m is the
> > > > > only signoff after a reverse. Could be singleton.
>
> > > > > So partner opens 1C and you have Qxxx, Qxxx, Qxxxx, - . You respond
> > > > > 1H and hear 2D. I don't see passing
>
> > > > In the book, this hand respond 1S, not 1H, and rebids 2H after 2D.
> > > Next
> > > > question :)
>
> > Sorry, I had a braino, guys ....
>
> I'm not so sure of that!
>
> As I recall Edgar told me that 2H shows H values and does not promise a
> rebid. Yes, it might conceal a GF with support for opener's minor, but I
> don't think it is itself a GF.
>
> --
Adam Wildavsky
Well, one responds 1S on a hand that would be uncomfortable raising 1S to 2S, showing 9-11 ish, after a 1H response. Say Qxxx Qxxx Qxx xx. I'd be OK raising to 2S with the 544 hand so I'd respond 1H.
As for bidding over a 2D reverse I would not consider 3C. My choices are Pass and 3D, depending on partner's temperament and proclivities.
AW
Kees Schaafsma
> HHxx in the reverse suit, and HHxxx in the opening suit.
> But any 15+ with fewer than 4 in responder's suit, singleton in one
> side suit, and substantial high card holding in the other side suit
> has no alternative but a simple bid in the strong side suit or
> fragment.
On QJxx/x/AKQxx/QJx Edgar bids 2S after 1D-1S.
(p146 K-S System of Winning Bridge)
I'm pretty sure he wouldn't reverse on Kxx/x/KQxx/AKxxx.
I think the minimum for a reverse is 16 points, on occasion an
unlikely exceptional 15 points (often a 6-card minor)
Regards
Kees
judyorcarl
What conceivable alternative is there?
Move the diamond HCP into blacks, and you raise with 3. But not as it
stands.
Carl
Kees Schaafsma
----- Original Message -----
From: "judyorcarl" <judyo...@verizon.net>
To: "The Kaplan-Sheinwold Bidding System"
<kaplan-s...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2008 9:58 PM
Subject: Re: Roth-Stone reverse
It just doesn't make sense to reverse.
If it does you should bid 3S on QJxx/x/AKQxx/QJx.
If you do, by all means do reverse on Kxx/x/KQxx/AKxxx and
do bid 3S if responder bids 2S/2NT. Is the hand strong enough
for that sequence? In my opinion no.
On your reverse hand I would raise to two, which is not a weak rebid in K-S.
Regards
Kees
Judy & Carl Weisman
But I don't see the connection with a reverse. Is it the concern about
going set if the deal is misfit? The single raise in a weakish 3-card is
*much* more dangerous in that regard. Compared to the KS 3-card raise
KQJ, x, xxxx, AKQxx.
Carl
flemnevershowered
|without the heart K. And it categorically removes any opportunity
|for responder to show values. You should torture him again with 2S.
|the best way to do that is a semi-artificial 3S, but you are in
|uncharted territory. If opener does rebid 3NT, I think responder is
|strong enough to raise to 4NT. The reverse is already strong, and
|3NT has to be stronger than a passable 2NT rebid.
refocus on O's 2nd rebid. In my earlier study of these sequences, I
was led to wonder what shape is implied by a "Roth-Stone reverse"
(emphasis indicated by bracketed underscores):
KSU says that, after 1m-1M/2R-2M/, 3NT is "_Natural_, extremely
strong"
(ie, stopper in 4th suit?) and 4th suit is "Game-force; a Roth-Stone
reverse; R suit likely natural; _probably no stopper_ since then 3
NT."
What we have is response bidding that could be 5-6 HC with 5 hearts,
so, yes, 3NT must be about 20 plus and, yes, 4th suit must be in the
same range. However, does the comment re: 3NT, in context with the
comment re: 4th suit, imply that 3NT could be something like 3-2-4-4
or 2-2-4-5 (2 small in R's M) but not 3-3-3-4 or 3-2-4-4 or (maybe)
2-2-4-5, with all suits stopped, which could open 2NT or 2c followed
by NT? How does one contrast 3NT, described as "extremely strong" and
_placing in game_ after that response bidding, with a 4th suit 'game
force R-S reverse no stopper' hand? Aren't they the same hand
power-wise, but with different shape still looking for a fit or
stoppers
(assuming that a R-S reverse can't be made on some flattish 4-4 in
the minors or 4 m with 4 R [R being a M] or a 4-4-4-1)? Based on the
comments here, it seems to me that most would open 2c with
Kxx-K-AKQx-AKQxx or KQx-K-AKJx-AKQxx, thus meeting the "one trick
short of game" criteria (though I still balk with 5-4 shape,
reserving 2c for one-suited or flat hands), which would imply as a
guide something like a 20-23 point range for either 3NT or 4th
suit....
Kees Schaafsma
The connection is that if QJxx/x/AKQxx/QJx is not strong
enough for a jump raise, than Kxx/x/KQxx/AKxxx is not
strong enough for a reverse.
Second from the same book (p. 166 K-S System of Winning Bridge),
Kxx/x/AQJxx/AQxx. Bidding 1D-1S;2C-2D; Now a non-forcing
2S bid requires no less than 18 support points, where as on
Kxx/x/KQxx/AKxxx you are prepared to force to 3S with only
17 support points (and beyond that if responder bids 2NT
[8-11/15+], 1C-1S;2D-2N;3S is forcing). Admittedly, the mechanics
of the auction favor a sequence of 1D-1M;2C but this shouldn't
result in a contract that is at least one level higher if the bidding
starts with 1C.
Third, there is nothing wrong with "weakish" 3-card raises
See Robson & Segal, Partnership Bidding at Bridge.
Regards
Kees
flemnevershowered
1 m - 1 X
Jump shift
Often a game raise, singleton in 4th suit. If not, then a monster: a
hand that others might have opened 2c - the suit of the jump shift is
4 cards or more (since 3 m is available for one-suited monster). (Not:
1d - 1 M, 3c .)
How does this fit? Define monster: more than the 19-22 or so expected
in standard bidding, like the 20-23 or so I just proposed? Should
the example hand be bid1c-1M/3d-3H/then what ? Probably not, because
of the "Roth-Stone Reverse" language in the 1m-1M/2R sequences?
judyorcarl
On Mar 21, 7:11 am, "Kees Schaafsma" <kschy...@tomaatnet.nl> wrote:
> First, it's not my hypothetical jump raise, it's from Edgar.
> The connection is that if QJxx/x/AKQxx/QJx is not strong
> enough for a jump raise, than Kxx/x/KQxx/AKxxx is not
> strong enough for a reverse.
>
> Second from the same book (p. 166 K-S System of Winning Bridge),
> Kxx/x/AQJxx/AQxx. Bidding 1D-1S;2C-2D; Now a non-forcing
> 2S bid requires no less than 18 support points, where as on
> Kxx/x/KQxx/AKxxx you are prepared to force to 3S with only
> 17 support points
(and beyond that if responder bids 2NT
> [8-11/15+], 1C-1S;2D-2N;3S is forcing).
Admittedly, the mechanics
> of the auction favor a sequence of 1D-1M;2C but this shouldn't
> result in a contract that is at least one level higher if the bidding
> starts with 1C.
>
> Third, there is nothing wrong with "weakish" 3-card raises
> See Robson & Segal, Partnership Bidding at Bridge.
than xx opposite AKxxx at the 3-level.
My point is that if you raise to 2S, you can't play 3C if you need
to. So far as I am concerned, this is completely symmetric to the
risk that if you rebid 2D, you can't play 2S if you need to.
The purpose of the KS light reverse, I believe, is that opener's first
suit is given proper emphasis.
Carl
judyorcarl
one of the suits was extremely weak. (Even 1NT!)
So the extremely strong reverses with 5422 or 44 minors are to prevent
the opening 2NT or 2C-2NT from preempting a possible minor suit slam.
As I've mentioned before, 2NT is the worst opening bid in bridge, the
worst slam-killer.
Carl
On Mar 21, 9:16 am, flemnevershowered <jsn_color...@comcast.net>
wrote:
judyorcarl
*all* opener JS to 1-over-1 as minimum with 5 in 2nd suit. Give it a
try; it produces extremely comfortable auctions.
Although 2NT is the worst opening bid, opener's strong jumpshift is
the worst bid period.
Carl
On Mar 21, 10:01 am, flemnevershowered <jsn_color...@comcast.net>
wrote:
Ron
few things come together in my mind.
KSer's do not believe in 1m-1M;2M being a 3 card raise
TKSoWB is no longer a valid KS reference unless you are specifically
talking about "KS classic".
KSU and KSC are NOT the same system even though they are both part of
the same system family.
EK tweaked a lot of things between KSC and KSU.
The important points are the following about what are in my opinion
the principles behind KS auctions.
KS is essentially an IMPs oriented system. Our goal is accurate game
and slam bidding.
Below we analyze Opener's hand in terms of losers and Responder's
hand in terms of cover cards.
The Philosophy behind strong rebids in KS
(2 good cards + 6 losers + fit + stoppers= 3N)
2 good cards + 5 losers= 4M
2 good cards + 4 losers= 5m
Accordingly, opening hands with loser counts as above make strong rebids
Which means...
(8-6 losers is the range for NT oriented hands)
7-5 losers is the range on M oriented hands
6-4 losers is the range on m oriented hands
...opened at the 1 level.
So
1m-1N;3m => 4 losers
1m-1M;3m
3+M => 5- losers
1-M => 4 losers
else 1m-blah;2m (I play this more wide ranging than in KSU)
1D-1N;3C => 4 losers
1D-1M;3C
3cM => 5- losers
1-M => 4 losers
else 1D-blah;2C!
(If you still play the KSU treatment that 1D-1blah;3C! shows a min,
reverse the above meanings)
1C-1M;2D
3cM => 5- losers
1-M => 4 losers
else <all sorts of complicated stuff. Including the "KS heavy pass".>
1m-1S;2H
3 S's => 5- losers
1-S => 4 losers
else <all sorts of complicated stuff. Including the "KS heavy pass".>
1H-1N;2S => 5- losers
1H-2m;2S => 6- losers if not playing 2/1 100% GF. Any 45?? else.
Judgement matters and can change what category any specific hand belongs to.
I think this presents a unified view of the rebid structure by Opener in KS.
Ron Peacetree
At 06:11 AM 3/21/2008, Kees Schaafsma wrote:
>First, it's not my hypothetical jump raise, it's from Edgar.
>The connection is that if QJxx=x=AKQxx=QJx is not strong
>enough for a jump raise, than Kxx=x=KQxx=AKxxx is not
>strong enough for a reverse.
>
>Second from the same book (p. 166 K-S System of Winning Bridge),
>Kxx=x=AQJxx=AQxx. Bidding 1D-1S;2C-2D; Now a non-forcing
>2S bid requires no less than 18 support points, where as on
>Kxx=x=KQxx=AKxxx you are prepared to force to 3S with only
Kees Schaafsma
On Mar 21, 7:11 am, "Kees Schaafsma" <kschy...@tomaatnet.nl> wrote:
>>> First, it's not my hypothetical jump raise, it's from Edgar.
>>> The connection is that if QJxx/x/AKQxx/QJx is not strong
>>> enough for a jump raise, than Kxx/x/KQxx/AKxxx is not
>>> strong enough for a reverse.
>>>
>>> Second from the same book (p. 166 K-S System of Winning Bridge),
>>> Kxx/x/AQJxx/AQxx. Bidding 1D-1S;2C-2D; Now a non-forcing
>>> 2S bid requires no less than 18 support points, where as on
>>> Kxx/x/KQxx/AKxxx you are prepared to force to 3S with only
>>> 17 support points
<>No, you are forcing to 3C, unless there is a 53 spade fit.
I did say prepared to force to 3S, I didn't say forcing to 3S.
It still escapes me why you only need 17 support points to
be prepared to do so, but let's move to the next point..
>>>(and beyond that if responder bids 2NT
>>> [8-11/15+], 1C-1S;2D-2N;3S is forcing).
<>but 1S-1S;2D-2N; 3C is not.
No indeed, it's not but shouldn't it show 6 clubs (or a great 5-card)?
Something like Kx/xx/KQJ/AKxxxx?
So that responder can make an intelligent decision to bid 3NT
on Axxx/AJT/xxxx/xx or Jxxx/AQx/xxx/Qxx.
You would have bid 3NT yourself? Alas, you find partner
with QJTx/Axx/xxx/JTx or AQxx/Kxx/xxxx/xx
Counterexamples are of course very possible, but according to
you I should read KS(U) as: One goal of reversing is
to achieve a better partscore. Imagine that, I would have
skipped the section at once.
Regards
Kees
Judy & Carl Weisman
Opener's new suits are *mild* game tries. At least in KS. And I've never
seen the purpose of America's superstrong reversing requirement. I am
*guessing* that it is from fear of getting too high when partscore is the
limit.
Carl
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kees Schaafsma" <ksch...@tomaatnet.nl>
To: <kaplan-s...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Friday, March 21, 2008 8:35 AM
Subject: Re: Roth-Stone reverse
>
>
Ron
make 2N or 23 Playing Points for 2ofasuit.
Thus if we assume responder's minimum to be ~6 HCP, opener needs ~17
for a minimum reverse when the odds of a fit are poor.
We KSer's have the advantage of knowing that our auctions starting 1m
can be more trusted than those openings by strong NTers.
We either have a real suit or a strong NT or a sane prepared rebid
every time we open 1m.
But the real point is that EK's "light" reverses were actually not
all that light in the context of System. Or at the least he "took
out insurance".
If you have a 6+ card suit, you have a prepared "way out" if
responder has a min.
1m-1M;2R is a lot less risky when your m suit is real and you have
3cM support.
1C-1N;2R is a lot less risky when 1C-1N shows 9-11 to help avoid
wrong siding NT
etc
KS provides a safety net in many situations that allows us to reverse
safely on less than those playing Standard
We do pay for it. Most notably with the "KS heavy pass" where
Standard bidders would open 1m.
For Major suit auctions, we pay for our more aggressive initial
action style by needing more "starch" for reverses.
On a personal note, I have never liked distorting my shape to partner
more than I absolutely have to. So I have always avoided as much as
possible the (in)famous 2 card and 3 card "KS reverse". But that is
a personal style thing.
Ron Peacetree
Ron
>It's simple math. Experience says We need 23 HCP to be odds on to
>make 2N or 23 Playing Points for 2ofasuit.
I'm fairly certain most known that 2ofasuit above should be 3ofasuit.
Embarrassed Ron
Judy & Carl Weisman
My understanding of KS, especially in the 1972 vintage, is that highest
priority is assigned to severe limitation of the strength of the simple
minor rebid. So with 15 HCP, you must do something else. You may raise
partner with 3 if you wish. But he will give you an opportunity to escape
the strain *only* if he wants you to escape with 5432. You may rebid 1NT if
that is remotely sensible. But if 1NT is not remotely sensible, and if your
holding in partner's suit will not work at the game level opposite Q1076,
what choice have you but a new suit? So you go minus when partner has a
misfitting 6.
Carl
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron" <rjp...@earthlink.net>
To: <kaplan-s...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2008 12:07 PM
Subject: Re: Roth-Stone reverse
>
Steve Willner
> KSer's do not believe in 1m-1M;2M being a 3 card raise
This surprised me, so I looked it up. B-9 says:
"Usually 15-17, 4-card fit. Could be unbalanced equivalent. Rarely,
3-card support, too concentrated for 1 NT rebid."
I guess it depends on how one interprets that "rarely," but I probably
raise on three more often than the system suggests. Of course the
_values_ have to be equivalent to 15-17 support points.
SW> Unlike other reverses in KS, a minor-suit reverse is very strong.
From: "Alex Martelli" <ale...@gmail.com>
> Naaah...! A club 1-suiter just barely too good for 1C-then-2C, with
> something like 2-2-3-6 shape and good D tops, will definitely do "a
> minor-suit reverse" even without being "very strong"
OK, fair enough. I seem to be taking "sound minor openings" more
seriously than the system prescribes. I think 1m then 2m should still
be a pretty decent hand -- certainly in diamonds (else open 2D) and also
in clubs if you are willing to give up 2C strong.
SW> Personally, I'm not fond of the KS (and BWS) "automatic" rebid of a
SW> five-card suit. We don't rebid five-card suits in other circumstances
SW> unless there's no good alternative, so why do so after a reverse?
In my
> Because it's cheap and gives a lot of useful shape definition
It's that "useful" that I doubt.
> while
> allowing opener a lot of space to keep describing his hand (in
> particular, it's very useful to have responder rebids like 2S _deny_ a
> 5-card major).
This avoids reaching 3M on a 4-3 fit, but the ambiguous strength still
means you will probably get overboard every time there's a 5-3 and some
of the time there's a 5-2. Also when responder is weak with long M that
opener misfits. Perhaps how you treat the reverses also depends on how
often you raise with 3-card support. If you raise freely with three,
reverse then 3M shows _more_ than 17 points in support, and getting too
high is rarer.
As is so often the case, there are lots of methods that are playable.
Alex Martelli
...
> > Naaah...! A club 1-suiter just barely too good for 1C-then-2C, with
> > something like 2-2-3-6 shape and good D tops, will definitely do "a
> > minor-suit reverse" even without being "very strong"
>
> OK, fair enough. I seem to be taking "sound minor openings" more
> seriously than the system prescribes. I think 1m then 2m should still
> be a pretty decent hand -- certainly in diamonds (else open 2D) and also
> in clubs if you are willing to give up 2C strong.
Fine with me (I'm also very keen on solid values for minor-suit
openings in KS!), but, if you play KS, whatever the minimum values for
1m, the maximum values for 1m-then-2m are very strictly defined:
"Severely limited; 12 to 14 and not 14 if good 6-card suit. Could be
5-card suit; if 6 cards, a terrible suit or a terrible hand.", to
quote directly Edgar Kaplan's words (from the online KSU, i.e.
http://www.bridgeworld.com/default.asp?d=editorial_dept&f=edgarkaplan/ksupdated.html).
So, for example, if you play KSU, with something like
xx-Kx-AJx-AQ10xxx (14 and a good suit, definitely neither a terrible
suit nor a terrible hands) you're supposed to rebid 2D over partner's
1H response on your 1C opening bid (though this is a "constructed"
hand at the very minimum possible strength for a reverse, of course --
I definitely wouldn't berate a partner whose judgment called for a
slightly over-strength 2C rebid with this hand, say on a 1S response
which doesn't make it any stronger the way a 1H response definitely
does...).
> As is so often the case, there are lots of methods that are playable.
Sure, but, out of all those methods, I generally prefer Kaplan's
(though I'm definitely not a fanatic - e.g., my favorite "KS-like"
partner prefers to raise on three after 1m-1M MUCH more freely than
Kaplan, almost as freely as Rubens in fact, so we've changed the whole
structure to account for that -- see
http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dfw7srnr_0cmd8rr for a complete list of
our system notes, mostly expressed as deltas from KSU, specifically
the section "B8/B9 (raises of Major)" for our agreements after 1m-1M;
2M).
Alex
judyorcarl
On Mar 24, 9:27 pm, Steve Willner <swill...@rcn.com> wrote:
> Ron wrote:
> > KSer's do not believe in 1m-1M;2M being a 3 card raise
>
> This surprised me, so I looked it up. B-9 says:
> "Usually 15-17, 4-card fit. Could be unbalanced equivalent. Rarely,
> 3-card support, too concentrated for 1 NT rebid."
>
> I guess it depends on how one interprets that "rarely," but I probably
> raise on three more often than the system suggests. Of course the
> _values_ have to be equivalent to 15-17 support points.
support points. I believe that is a misinterpretation of "usually
15-17" in B-9. I'm pretty sure that the "usually" comes from the
inherent unliklihood of 54 hands. Consider the hands with 4 spades
that open 1C in KS. Even ignoring the quicktrick requirement, there
are 2.5 as many with 15-17 than with 12-14.
Does anyone have evidence that with Axxx, xx, xx, AKxxx, Kaplan would
*not* have opened 1C and raise 1S to 2?
Carl
>
> SW> Unlike other reverses in KS, a minor-suit reverse is very strong.
>
Otis Bricker
>
>
>
> Does anyone have evidence that with Axxx, xx, xx, AKxxx, Kaplan would
> *not* have opened 1C and raise 1S to 2?
>
>
I think there is evidence to the contrary.
In HTPWB he states regarding xxx x Axxx AKxxx, "Open 1C. With 3 QT it is
mandatory to open."
So clearly, with Axxx xx xx AKxxx opening is almost certain.
Then, when describing the raise of a Major response, he says of AJxx xx
AKxxx xx, "Bid 2S. This hand is worth only 14 and is therefore slightly
substandard. You cannot afford to pass a hand with better than 3 QT but
you must keep in mind the fact that partner expects your hand to be
slightly better." Really what other choice would you have with Axxx xx
xx AKxxx? Bidding 2C would be revolting. Risking playing in a 5-1 when a
54 could exist.
I think this is another example of allowing some flexibility. Like they
said about 5 card majors in the second edition(The KS System of winning
Bridge)," The opening bid in a major, then, promises five-cards or
greater length, but does not always deliver it."
I thought I remembered another pithy comment along those lines.
Something like, "A promise to partner is not a guarantee."
Otis
judyorcarl
On Mar 25, 4:05 pm, judyorcarl <judyorc...@verizon.net> wrote:
> On Mar 24, 9:27 pm, Steve Willner <swill...@rcn.com> wrote:
>
> > Ron wrote:
> > > KSer's do not believe in 1m-1M;2M being a 3 card raise
>
> > This surprised me, so I looked it up. B-9 says:
> > "Usually 15-17, 4-card fit. Could be unbalanced equivalent. Rarely,
> > 3-card support, too concentrated for 1 NT rebid."
>
> > I guess it depends on how one interprets that "rarely," but I probably
> > raise on three more often than the system suggests. Of course the
> > _values_ have to be equivalent to 15-17 support points.
>
> Many KS'ers are understanding the single raise as *showing* 15-17
> support points. I believe that is a misinterpretation of "usually
> 15-17" in B-9. I'm pretty sure that the "usually" comes from the
> inherent unliklihood of 54 hands. Consider the hands with 4 spades
> that open 1C in KS. Even ignoring the quicktrick requirement, there
> are 2.5 as many with 15-17 than with 12-14.
Carl
flemnevershowered
14.75. while
Axxx, xx, xx, AKxxx, xxx x Axxx AKxxx, xx xx Axxx AKxxx, xx Axxx xx
AKxxx and all similar variations = 14.10, and these are opening, not
wsupporting, values. The unhappy rebid problem arises only with a
response in a suit above the 4 carder, and not when the response suit
is xxx with opener. So, not all that frequent?
Regards and Happy Trails,
Scott Needham
Adam Wildavsky
topic is hand evaluation. On the one hand AKxx xx xx Axxxx is a little
less, 13.80. On the other hand four card support for partner improves
the hand by a point or so, and in real life we're likely to hold a few
spots which the K&R algorithm would take into account. If I raised to
2S and partner bid a game I'd expect him to have decent play for it
with most minimums. Note Axxx xx xx AKxxx 4S has some play even
opposite Kxxxx xxx xxx xx. All it takes is a black suit lead and even
breaks in both black suits. Granted, they're not likely to lead from a
3-card club suit after we've opened a club, nor from Qx or Jx of
trump. On the other hand partner wouldn't even respond with that hand,
never mind bid a game.
AW
Ron
>On Mar 24, 9:27 pm, Steve Willner <swill...@rcn.com> wrote:
> > Ron wrote:
> > > KSer's do not believe in 1m-1M;2M being a 3 card raise
> >
> > This surprised me, so I looked it up. B-9 says:
> > "Usually 15-17, 4-card fit. Could be unbalanced equivalent. Rarely,
> > 3-card support, too concentrated for 1 NT rebid."
> >
> > I guess it depends on how one interprets that "rarely," but I probably
> > raise on three more often than the system suggests. Of course the
> > _values_ have to be equivalent to 15-17 support points.
>
>Many KS'ers are understanding the single raise as *showing* 15-17
>support points. I believe that is a misinterpretation of "usually
>15-17" in B-9. I'm pretty sure that the "usually" comes from the
>inherent unliklihood of 54 hands. Consider the hands with 4 spades
>that open 1C in KS. Even ignoring the quicktrick requirement, there
>are 2.5 as many with 15-17 than with 12-14.
>
>Does anyone have evidence that with Axxx, xx, xx, AKxxx, Kaplan would
>*not* have opened 1C and raise 1S to 2?
One of the great advantages of KS over Standard or 2/1 GF is the
accuracy of the auctions 1m-1M;2M and 1m-1M;3M compared to them.
Systemically, 1m-1M;2M shows 15-17 in either HCP or in Dummy Points
and 1m-1M;3M shows 18-19 is either HCP or Dummy Points.
In addition, by systemic design 1m-1M;Raise shows 4card support the
vast majority of the time.
For how else can one be sure that you are actually showing 15-17 or
18-19 "in support" if you are not sure whether or not We have an 8+ card fit?
The 5431 12+ count with 4card support becomes 12+ HCP + 3 Dummy
Points for the side stiff= 15+ Dummy Points.
Hence any shapely opening hand with 4card support can systemically
justify a raise in KS.
1m-1M;2M with 3 card "support" is unfortunately a gamble, and that
means any such raise must have 15-17 HCP in it as insurance that we
are keeping our promise to R that our raise shows 15-17 Playing Points.
IMHO 1m-1M;3M with only 3 card "support" is usually dangerous.
ITRW ATT, not all hands fit our system descriptions perfectly. No
matter what the system. Then we must follow Dorothy Hayden
Truscott's advice and "tell the least lie".
Passing 2A+K 5422's or 5431's with a 4cM is a worse lie than opening
them, so we open them if at all possible within system.
Yet there are some that are just unbiddable in KS and therefore we
have to pass them.
=1435 or =1444 is particularly nasty. These often get the KS "heavy
pass" by me because there simply is no honest rebid after 1C-1S;?? Ick.
Ron Peacetree
Steve Willner
> Systemically, 1m-1M;2M shows 15-17 in either HCP or in Dummy Points
> and 1m-1M;3M shows 18-19 is either HCP or Dummy Points.
I'd say dummy points (however you define those) in both cases, not HCP.
> 1m-1M;2M with 3 card "support" is unfortunately a gamble, and that
> means any such raise must have 15-17 HCP
This is a question of how you count dummy points. Presumably you add
something for shortness and subtract something for having only 3-card
support, but different people will have different ideas about how much
to add and subtract. In pure K-S, as you pointed out, the 3-card raise
will be rare, but I don't think it promises 15 HCP regardless.
> IMHO 1m-1M;3M with only 3 card "support" is usually dangerous.
The jump raise on 3 cards ought to be impossible. You can always
reverse -- into a 2-card suit if necessary -- or bid 3m if strong enough
(3-1-1-8?)?
> Passing 2A+K 5422's or 5431's with a 4cM is a worse lie than opening
> them, so we open them if at all possible within system.
Yes, if partner responds in the 4cM, we have to raise. If not prepared
to do that, we have to pass initially. Our count of dummy points may
have to promote aces and kings a lot. (BUMRAP does that too.)
> =1435 or =1444 is particularly nasty. These often get the KS "heavy
> pass" by me because there simply is no honest rebid after 1C-1S;?? Ick.
I agree with the C4 evaluator that short spades is a big negative for
opening, but at some strength the hand has to be opened even with that
shape. For =1435, a 2C rebid is usually OK; it doesn't remotely hint at
a sixth club, though of course it may deliver one. For =1444, a 1H
opening may be the only option, and that may be best even for =1435.
The main thing is to avoid a 1D opening.
judyorcarl
strain to open the major with KQxx or better when minimum. It seemed
like a great idea with 5431. But it buried a club slam. I conclude
that you may risk losing your 5-card suit only when you have 7
losers. But it's really hard for a 5431 to have more than 6 losers.
Carl
Ron
>Ron wrote:
> > Systemically, 1m-1M;2M shows 15-17 in either HCP or in Dummy Points
> > and 1m-1M;3M shows 18-19 is either HCP or Dummy Points.
>
>I'd say dummy points (however you define those) in both cases, not HCP.
>
> > 1m-1M;2M with 3 card "support" is unfortunately a gamble, and that
> > means any such raise must have 15-17 HCP
>
>This is a question of how you count dummy points. Presumably you
>add something for shortness and subtract something for having only
>3-card support, but different people will have different ideas about
>how much to add and subtract. In pure K-S, as you pointed out, the
>3-card raise will be rare, but I don't think it promises 15 HCP regardless.
You can only count Dummy Points when... ....your hand is going to be
Dummy. For that to happen you must be sure We have a fit. Else you
must evaluate your hand using methods that do not assume We have an
8+ card fit.
One of the great strengths of KS is that R can count on O providing
the trick taking power of the average 15-17 in 1m-1M;2M
Playing "fast and loose" with this principle negates one of what is
IMHO the major advantages of playing KS.
So, _yes_ when I raise with only three in auctions where I can not
know We have an 8+ card fit, I've got 15+ HCP or enough independent
trick taking potential in my hand to evaluate to the average 15-17
count. The vast majority of the time that actually does mean I have 15-17 HCP.
> > Passing 2A+K 5422's or 5431's with a 4cM is a worse lie than opening
> > them, so we open them if at all possible within system.
>
>Yes, if partner responds in the 4cM, we have to raise. If not
>prepared to do that, we have to pass initially. Our count of dummy
>points may have to promote aces and kings a lot. (BUMRAP does that too.)
But there still is a limit.
5422's potentially get 2 Dummy Point for their Doubletons. That
means passing or opening 12- HCP 5422's 1N. Or being willing to
"face the music" if our miss bidding or over bidding our hand gets Us
into trouble.
I once wrote a whole article on how to handle various 12-14 HCP
5431's within the context of KS because the topic is so complex.
One of the main points is that there are plenty of 12-13 HCP 5431's
that KSer's should systemically pass in 1st or 2nd.
That holds doubly true for =1444's.
> > =1435 or =1444 is particularly nasty. These often get the KS "heavy
> > pass" by me because there simply is no honest rebid after 1C-1S;?? Ick.
>
>I agree with the C4 evaluator that short spades is a big negative
>for opening, but at some strength the hand has to be opened even
>with that shape.
Yep, and Al Roth said it. ~14 HCP.
>For =1435, a 2C rebid is usually OK; it doesn't remotely hint at a
>sixth club, though of course it may deliver one. For =1444, a 1H
>opening may be the only option, and that may be best even for
>=1435. The main thing is to avoid a 1D opening.
I do not like misleading partner. I also do not like bidding just to
hear my own voice or "watch the gears turn".
I admit to a personal quirk of being as much as possible a shape and
values purist. Rebidding a suit should mean it's more important you
hear me bid that suit twice than any other choice I could have
made. IOW, for me 1m-blah;2m means that I as opener will tend
strongly to have 6+m or hhhxx. It means that f I'm playing 5cM by
agreement, I do not open 4cM unless the suit is something
like hhhx and I have no better call. Etc.
(The flip side of this is that I believe when
dealt blah=blah=AK=xxx or blah=blah=xxx=AK I open AK tight and
not xxx even though I do not play "short club".)
...and sometimes the "tell the least lie" principle means saying "pass".
Ron Peacetree