[kanjivg] Possible KanjiVG licence violation?
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Alexandre Courbot
Apr 22, 2010, 4:30:51 AM4/22/10
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Hi everybody,
I just spotted an iPhone application (which I won't name until I am
sure we have an issue) that uses the KanjiVG data. So far so good, but
the problem is that this application is sold for $20 on the apple
store, and seems to be totally closed-source.
The current licence for KanjiVG (CC-Attribution-ShareAlike) does not
prohibit commercial exploitation of derivative work, but enforces them
to be released into a free software licence. As for this application,
there is strictly no link to download the source code, which does not
seem to be acceptable.
What do you guys think? Should I send them a friendly reminder to
comply to the licences of the data they are making profit from?
Alex.
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I just spotted an iPhone application (which I won't name until I am
sure we have an issue) that uses the KanjiVG data. So far so good, but
the problem is that this application is sold for $20 on the apple
store, and seems to be totally closed-source.
The current licence for KanjiVG (CC-Attribution-ShareAlike) does not
prohibit commercial exploitation of derivative work, but enforces them
to be released into a free software licence. As for this application,
there is strictly no link to download the source code, which does not
seem to be acceptable.
What do you guys think? Should I send them a friendly reminder to
comply to the licences of the data they are making profit from?
Alex.
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Julien Quint
Apr 22, 2010, 4:46:41 AM4/22/10
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On Apr 22, 2010, at 10:30 AM, Alexandre Courbot wrote:
> I just spotted an iPhone application (which I won't name until I am
> sure we have an issue) that uses the KanjiVG data. So far so good, but
> the problem is that this application is sold for $20 on the apple
> store, and seems to be totally closed-source.
>
> The current licence for KanjiVG (CC-Attribution-ShareAlike) does not
> prohibit commercial exploitation of derivative work, but enforces them
> to be released into a free software licence. As for this application,
> there is strictly no link to download the source code, which does not
> seem to be acceptable.
>
> What do you guys think? Should I send them a friendly reminder to
> comply to the licences of the data they are making profit from?
The Share Alike clause says: "If you alter, transform, or build upon this work, you may distribute the resulting work only under the same, similar or a compatible license." My understanding is that an application that uses this data is not a derivative work--I interpret "build upon" in this case as adding new characters. Using this reasoning I don't consider the Web interface that I made as a derivative work. But correct me if I'm wrong!
> I just spotted an iPhone application (which I won't name until I am
> sure we have an issue) that uses the KanjiVG data. So far so good, but
> the problem is that this application is sold for $20 on the apple
> store, and seems to be totally closed-source.
>
> The current licence for KanjiVG (CC-Attribution-ShareAlike) does not
> prohibit commercial exploitation of derivative work, but enforces them
> to be released into a free software licence. As for this application,
> there is strictly no link to download the source code, which does not
> seem to be acceptable.
>
> What do you guys think? Should I send them a friendly reminder to
> comply to the licences of the data they are making profit from?
On the other hand if they don't give proper attribution that is a violation of the licence.
Julien Quint
http://consulting.romulusetrem.us/
Ben Bullock
Apr 22, 2010, 6:17:59 AM4/22/10
to kan...@googlegroups.com
On 22 April 2010 17:30, Alexandre Courbot <gnu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I just spotted an iPhone application (which I won't name until I am
> sure we have an issue) that uses the KanjiVG data. So far so good, but
> the problem is that this application is sold for $20 on the apple
> store, and seems to be totally closed-source.
> The current licence for KanjiVG (CC-Attribution-ShareAlike) does not
> prohibit commercial exploitation of derivative work, but enforces them
> to be released into a free software licence.
If the file is only being read by the application, surely they only
> I just spotted an iPhone application (which I won't name until I am
> sure we have an issue) that uses the KanjiVG data. So far so good, but
> the problem is that this application is sold for $20 on the apple
> store, and seems to be totally closed-source.
> The current licence for KanjiVG (CC-Attribution-ShareAlike) does not
> prohibit commercial exploitation of derivative work, but enforces them
> to be released into a free software licence.
need to distribute the KanjiVG file and also give attribution?
Otherwise if I look at kanjivg with Microsoft Internet Explorer, then
I can force MS to make Internet Explorer open source.
> As for this application,
> there is strictly no link to download the source code, which does not
> seem to be acceptable.
>
> What do you guys think? Should I send them a friendly reminder to
> comply to the licences of the data they are making profit from?
as that is part of the licence, but I don't think it follows that the
program has to be open source in order to read the data and output it.
Mathieu Blondel
Apr 22, 2010, 6:26:40 AM4/22/10
to kan...@googlegroups.com
On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 7:17 PM, Ben Bullock <benkasmi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> If the file is only being read by the application, surely they only
> need to distribute the KanjiVG file and also give attribution?
> Otherwise if I look at kanjivg with Microsoft Internet Explorer, then
> I can force MS to make Internet Explorer open source.
The difference is KanjiVG is not distributed with Internet Explorer
> If the file is only being read by the application, surely they only
> need to distribute the KanjiVG file and also give attribution?
> Otherwise if I look at kanjivg with Microsoft Internet Explorer, then
> I can force MS to make Internet Explorer open source.
but it is with this iPhone application.
Anyway, the key question is whether a software that bundles KanjiVG is
considered a derivative work of KanjiVG or not.
Mathieu
Alexandre Courbot
Apr 22, 2010, 9:53:57 AM4/22/10
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The purpose of the licence was to ensure that you can produce free (as
in free speech) work with KanjiVG, but that for closed another kind of
licence would be necessary.
The idea of "derivative work" is indeed subject to interpretation. But
anyway, I don't think any software using KanjiVG uses it "as is" - in
order to be usable, the data most likely has to be turned into some
kind of database or something. That could probably be qualified as a
"derivative work".
Otherwise, Ulrich may want to change the licence to something more
"viral" (GPL?). Would be nice to hear what he thinks about it. I
personally am not fond of the idea of using a free project for your
own profit without contributing anything in return. Could live with
it, but dislike this attitude.
Alex.
in free speech) work with KanjiVG, but that for closed another kind of
licence would be necessary.
The idea of "derivative work" is indeed subject to interpretation. But
anyway, I don't think any software using KanjiVG uses it "as is" - in
order to be usable, the data most likely has to be turned into some
kind of database or something. That could probably be qualified as a
"derivative work".
Otherwise, Ulrich may want to change the licence to something more
"viral" (GPL?). Would be nice to hear what he thinks about it. I
personally am not fond of the idea of using a free project for your
own profit without contributing anything in return. Could live with
it, but dislike this attitude.
Alex.
hugo lopes
Apr 22, 2010, 5:42:38 AM4/22/10
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My opinion is that there is there a Copyviolation.
Case of PlecoDict
The Chinese Software dictionary PlecoDict is a proprietary product.
It is may use HanDeDict (CC-by-sa), and is HanDeDict compatible.
But the software is not sell with that data.
The users have to download and associate the CC data later, to avoid copyright conflict between proprietary code, locked. And free with Share-alike clause, Handedict database.
Case is Citizendium.
Citizendium is an online encyclopedia.
They were not allowed to used Wikipedia Free (Gnu GPL - CC-by-sa) articles.
That was a bad point for them.
So they eventually switched to CC-by-sa. This move allowed them to integrate Wikipedia CC-by-sa contents.
From this 2 cases, I understand that :
1. Data with CC-by-sa request Derivate/Software/Website with CC-by-sa
Or
2. That AT LESS the code/data under CC-by-sa should be clearly state as such, extractable, and with full reference.
The "Build upon" is, in anycase, not really clear for me.
(The Share Alike clause says: "If you alter, transform, or build upon this work, you may distribute the resulting work only under the same, similar or a compatible license.")
--
羅禹國 - Hugo LOPEZ,
Tw. tel: 09-8343-9890
Institute of Innovation, Technology and Management (Master 1)
NCHU, Taizhong, Taiwan.
Case of PlecoDict
The Chinese Software dictionary PlecoDict is a proprietary product.
It is may use HanDeDict (CC-by-sa), and is HanDeDict compatible.
But the software is not sell with that data.
The users have to download and associate the CC data later, to avoid copyright conflict between proprietary code, locked. And free with Share-alike clause, Handedict database.
Case is Citizendium.
Citizendium is an online encyclopedia.
They were not allowed to used Wikipedia Free (Gnu GPL - CC-by-sa) articles.
That was a bad point for them.
So they eventually switched to CC-by-sa. This move allowed them to integrate Wikipedia CC-by-sa contents.
From this 2 cases, I understand that :
1. Data with CC-by-sa request Derivate/Software/Website with CC-by-sa
Or
2. That AT LESS the code/data under CC-by-sa should be clearly state as such, extractable, and with full reference.
The "Build upon" is, in anycase, not really clear for me.
(The Share Alike clause says: "If you alter, transform, or build upon this work, you may distribute the resulting work only under the same, similar or a compatible license.")
--
羅禹國 - Hugo LOPEZ,
Tw. tel: 09-8343-9890
Institute of Innovation, Technology and Management (Master 1)
NCHU, Taizhong, Taiwan.
Ulrike Schmidt
Apr 22, 2010, 6:39:16 PM4/22/10
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I think I know which application you are talking about and I was also
wondering about whether they are violating the licence. But I was
thinking of asking them whether they are interested in integrating data
of another project of Ulrich, the WaDoku Jiten, as an in app purchase,
and sharing the income to support that project. Ulrich and I wanted to
talk about this in the nearer future. So maybe we can also give them a
hint regarding support for KanjiVG.
Uli
Alexandre Courbot schrieb:
wondering about whether they are violating the licence. But I was
thinking of asking them whether they are interested in integrating data
of another project of Ulrich, the WaDoku Jiten, as an in app purchase,
and sharing the income to support that project. Ulrich and I wanted to
talk about this in the nearer future. So maybe we can also give them a
hint regarding support for KanjiVG.
Uli
Alexandre Courbot schrieb:
Alexandre Courbot
Apr 22, 2010, 8:25:59 PM4/22/10
to kan...@googlegroups.com
> I think I know which application you are talking about and I was also
> wondering about whether they are violating the licence. But I was thinking
> of asking them whether they are interested in integrating data of another
> project of Ulrich, the WaDoku Jiten, as an in app purchase, and sharing the
> income to support that project. Ulrich and I wanted to talk about this in
> the nearer future. So maybe we can also give them a hint regarding support
> for KanjiVG.
That may be a solution for this case, but more generally we have to
> wondering about whether they are violating the licence. But I was thinking
> of asking them whether they are interested in integrating data of another
> project of Ulrich, the WaDoku Jiten, as an in app purchase, and sharing the
> income to support that project. Ulrich and I wanted to talk about this in
> the nearer future. So maybe we can also give them a hint regarding support
> for KanjiVG.
figure out whether the KanjiVG licence really corresponds to how
Ulrich wants to distribute it. As Hugo pointed out, suspicion of
violation is pretty high.
Dr. Ulrich Apel
Apr 25, 2010, 4:27:53 PM4/25/10
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Hi Alex, hi everybody,
thank you very much for pointing out the problems with copyright. Sorry for answering so late. Unfortunately, I am pretty busy at the moment -- and then, this is a quite unpleasant topic.
I think there are several issues. In the dictionary society WaDoku e.V., we are discussing a new licence, and we have to talk with a lawyer anyway.
If the mentioned iPhone app uses KanjiVG without information under which licence, they are using the data, we have a copyright violation. I haven't distributed other licences than CC-Attribution-ShareAlike.
Probably, I should talk with the lawyer, what share alike means in our case, and which usage would require to lay open the source code.
Another difficulty seems to be, that it is not really clear, how the CC author attribution should work. Often the CC licence is used without attribution at all. For example wikipedia doesn't state authors. Probably, it is a question of feasibility. But even if authorship should be pretty clear, it can be difficult to actually find a statement about the author.
But there are more pleasant news too: It seems that I can resume work on KanjiVG together with students at class. We will also try to make an extension of KanjiVG a research project. I will keep you up-to-date about our progress.
Ulrich
thank you very much for pointing out the problems with copyright. Sorry for answering so late. Unfortunately, I am pretty busy at the moment -- and then, this is a quite unpleasant topic.
I think there are several issues. In the dictionary society WaDoku e.V., we are discussing a new licence, and we have to talk with a lawyer anyway.
If the mentioned iPhone app uses KanjiVG without information under which licence, they are using the data, we have a copyright violation. I haven't distributed other licences than CC-Attribution-ShareAlike.
Probably, I should talk with the lawyer, what share alike means in our case, and which usage would require to lay open the source code.
Another difficulty seems to be, that it is not really clear, how the CC author attribution should work. Often the CC licence is used without attribution at all. For example wikipedia doesn't state authors. Probably, it is a question of feasibility. But even if authorship should be pretty clear, it can be difficult to actually find a statement about the author.
But there are more pleasant news too: It seems that I can resume work on KanjiVG together with students at class. We will also try to make an extension of KanjiVG a research project. I will keep you up-to-date about our progress.
Ulrich
hugo lopes
Apr 26, 2010, 12:14:23 AM4/26/10
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Wikipedia state authors:
* In the history link
* When you download the PDF, the list of ALL authors is joined.
I think contact an lawyer is exessive.
On wikipedia, the process is to notice to software developper or webmaster of the violation, and to ask him to restore the license -at least of the data-. They "always" restore the license.
You contact a lawyer (will have some cost) if and only if you want get some money back, and likely more than the lawyer's cost.
Regards,
--
羅禹國 - Hugo LOPEZ,
Tw. tel: 09-8343-9890
Institute of Innovation, Technology and Management (Master 1)
NCHU, Taizhong, Taiwan.
* In the history link
* When you download the PDF, the list of ALL authors is joined.
I think contact an lawyer is exessive.
On wikipedia, the process is to notice to software developper or webmaster of the violation, and to ask him to restore the license -at least of the data-. They "always" restore the license.
You contact a lawyer (will have some cost) if and only if you want get some money back, and likely more than the lawyer's cost.
Regards,
--
羅禹國 - Hugo LOPEZ,
Tw. tel: 09-8343-9890
Institute of Innovation, Technology and Management (Master 1)
NCHU, Taizhong, Taiwan.
Ben Bullock
Apr 26, 2010, 12:56:39 AM4/26/10
to kan...@googlegroups.com
On 26 April 2010 13:14, hugo lopes <hugo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Wikipedia state authors:
> * In the history link
> * When you download the PDF, the list of ALL authors is joined.
Wikipedia was originally licensed under the Gnu Free Documentation
> Wikipedia state authors:
> * In the history link
> * When you download the PDF, the list of ALL authors is joined.
Licence, which, as far as I can remember, requires there to be a
"history" section which records the contributions of all authors.
> I think contact an lawyer is exessive.
> On wikipedia, the process is to notice to software developper or webmaster
> of the violation, and to ask him to restore the license -at least of the
> data-. They "always" restore the license.
pages plagiarized wholesale by Wikipedia (repeatedly), I wouldn't take
their advice on copyright seriously.
> You contact a lawyer (will have some cost) if and only if you want get some
> money back, and likely more than the lawyer's cost.
the organization behind Creative Commons to see what action they
suggested. It's quite possible that this is an innocent omission or
error on the part of the iPhone application developers. There have
been several cases of Jim Breen's dictionaries being used without
proper acknowledgement in the past, and I think most of them turned
out to be just omissions.
I had a look on the Apple store but I couldn't work out what
application this was supposed to be or what it's doing.
Mathieu Blondel
Apr 26, 2010, 1:16:16 AM4/26/10
to kan...@googlegroups.com
On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 1:56 PM, Ben Bullock <benkasmi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I don't really understand what you mean. Anyway, having had my web
> pages plagiarized wholesale by Wikipedia (repeatedly), I wouldn't take
> their advice on copyright seriously.
Isn't "their" inappropriate? As if Wikipedia admins encourage stealing
> I don't really understand what you mean. Anyway, having had my web
> pages plagiarized wholesale by Wikipedia (repeatedly), I wouldn't take
> their advice on copyright seriously.
copyrighted contents. I think you were just the victim of an
unscrupulous contributor. Normally, all the contents on Wikipedia
should be either new or imported from a source with a GFDL compatible
license.
Mathieu
Alexandre Courbot
Apr 26, 2010, 1:19:42 AM4/26/10
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> If the mentioned iPhone app uses KanjiVG without information under which licence, they are using the data, we have a copyright violation. I haven't distributed other licences than CC-Attribution-ShareAlike.
The information is at least provided on the project's page. The
possible copyright violation I was referring about was more about the
closed state of the software.
> But there are more pleasant news too: It seems that I can resume work on KanjiVG together with students at class. We will also try to make an extension of KanjiVG a research project. I will keep you up-to-date about our progress.
Alex.
Soul Jumper
May 11, 2014, 12:13:56 PM5/11/14
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Hello,
sorry for bringing this one up again, but I am thinking about releasing an application which not just displays the KanjiVG data, but also uses the .svg's stroke information as basis for searching by a kanji-sketch.
I did not contribute anything new to the actual data, but rather put information from the svg's file in a different representation into a database. Would it be a license violation if I make a must-pay app out of it and offer it in an application store?
Regards,
Alexandre Courbot
May 12, 2014, 8:01:35 PM5/12/14
to KanjiVG
Hi,
KanjiVG is now distributed under the CC-BY-SA license:
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/
This means you *can* use it into a commercial application (e.g. by
loading the KanjiVG data into a database), as long as attribution is
given to the project (project name + website in the about box or
equivalent).
If you make improvements or fixes to KanjiVG, you *must* distribute
these changes under the same license however, preferably by
contributing them back to the project.
So in your case I see no particular issue, as long as you give proper
attribution.
Cheers,
Alex.
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KanjiVG is now distributed under the CC-BY-SA license:
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/
This means you *can* use it into a commercial application (e.g. by
loading the KanjiVG data into a database), as long as attribution is
given to the project (project name + website in the about box or
equivalent).
If you make improvements or fixes to KanjiVG, you *must* distribute
these changes under the same license however, preferably by
contributing them back to the project.
So in your case I see no particular issue, as long as you give proper
attribution.
Cheers,
Alex.
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