HYPOCRISY of Prayer in Public / Schools !
mcel...@visto.com
HYPOCRISY of Prayer in Public / Schools !
Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Pat Buchanan, the
" Christian Coalition ", and a lot of SELF-RIGHTEOUS
fundamentalist " Christians " want to RE-IMPOSE prayer
into the public schools, as well as in certain government
ceremonies, etc..
But what did Jesus Christ HIMSELF say about people who
pray in public? In Matthew 6:5 KJV he called them HYPOCRITES!
He said in the next verse that people should pray
SILENTLY IN THEIR CLOSETS--in other words, IN PRIVATE. (Or
if in public, they should do it silently IN THEIR HEADS,
withOUT the SHOWY bowed head and folded hands.)
Parents who want their kids to openly and verbally pray
in school can send them to private PAROCHIAL schools, as well
as to church Sunday school, withOUT forcing it on others.
"Student-led" prayers should NOT be allowed where OTHER
possibly NON-Christian students are compelled to attend, such
as at graduation ceremonies.
Robert E. McElwaine
Eckankar Initiate
http://www.angelfire.com/wi/mcelwaine
P.S.: Praying "for" someone without his or her EXPRESSED
permission is a form of MIND CONTROL, BLACK MAGIC, and VOODOO
which will result in very HEAVY and INTENSE NEGATIVE KARMA
for the perpetrator(s) ! BE WARNED !
P.S.2: PASS IT ON !
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Strange Doctor Weird
: Praying "for" someone without his or her
EXPRESSED permission is a form of
MIND CONTROL, BLACK MAGIC, and VOODOO
It's a form of LOVE.
which will result in very HEAVY and
INTENSE NEGATIVE KARMA
for the perpetrator(s) ! BE WARNED !
Are you a Hindu,or Bhuddist?
Spock
out loud!
Just so you know, I am praying "for" you.
-Spock
<mcel...@visto.com> wrote in message news:7r6s7v$a2t$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
>
>
>
> HYPOCRISY of Prayer in Public / Schools !
>
> Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Pat Buchanan, the
> " Christian Coalition ", and a lot of SELF-RIGHTEOUS
> fundamentalist " Christians " want to RE-IMPOSE prayer
> into the public schools, as well as in certain government
> ceremonies, etc..
>
> But what did Jesus Christ HIMSELF say about people who
> pray in public? In Matthew 6:5 KJV he called them HYPOCRITES!
>
> He said in the next verse that people should pray
> SILENTLY IN THEIR CLOSETS--in other words, IN PRIVATE. (Or
> if in public, they should do it silently IN THEIR HEADS,
> withOUT the SHOWY bowed head and folded hands.)
>
> Parents who want their kids to openly and verbally pray
> in school can send them to private PAROCHIAL schools, as well
> as to church Sunday school, withOUT forcing it on others.
>
> "Student-led" prayers should NOT be allowed where OTHER
> possibly NON-Christian students are compelled to attend, such
> as at graduation ceremonies.
>
> Robert E. McElwaine
> Eckankar Initiate
> http://www.angelfire.com/wi/mcelwaine
>
> P.S.: Praying "for" someone without his or her EXPRESSED
> permission is a form of MIND CONTROL, BLACK MAGIC, and VOODOO
> which will result in very HEAVY and INTENSE NEGATIVE KARMA
> for the perpetrator(s) ! BE WARNED !
>
cschupp
, but here in the USA , we need God. I don't know what your problem is with
God and prayer. You need it more then anyone right now. Kids need guidance,
and if they can't get it a home from their parents, then school is the next
place. Your the hypocrite, for just saying what you just said.
God bless you!
Carol
mcel...@visto.com wrote in message <7r6s7v$a2t$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
Al Fogelman
Mat 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye
shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in
yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
The hypocrities that you are refering too were in Jesus day the
scribes and the Pharisees, and there are many of those types today.
Read all the gospels and words of God and learn many. many true
believers practive open, oral prayer, including Jesus. Jesus prayed
for You and me, all who truly believe. Many prayers expressing cares
for others and prayers requested. The question of prayer in school, is
not about prayer. It is about God. And all of us who believe have a
right to voice our belief. And prayer is a way of doing it. This
includes school children. The same right that others have to express
their unbelief. To believe God is a personal choice. And needs to be
confessed openly, praying. Hyposricy is false praying. The prayer are
not sincere, from the heart. So what is the problem? We should all,
believers and unbelievers, go around with our heads in the sand. I do
accept their rights should they not accept mine?
Thanks for reading truth, given in love, al.
daniel
<csc...@gte.net> wrote:
>I think it is a great idea to have prayer in school. I don't where you live
>, but here in the USA , we need God. I don't know what your problem is with
>God and prayer.
Some people here in the USA need God. Some don't. However, i am for
prayer in public schools too. If it includes all forms of religious
prayer, ie: Buddhist, Hindu, Judaic, Muslim, Native American, Atheist
etc. Then we can claim to truly be democratic.
--
daniel
8-2-86
daniel
>Read all the gospels and words of God and learn many. many true believers
practive open, oral prayer, including Jesus.
I find this a bit of an odd statement. To use this as a reason for
Christian prayer in public schools seems strange to me. Especially when
Jesus said (Matthew 6:5-6) :
"And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites. For they love
to pray standing in the synagogue and on the corners of the streets, that
they may be seen by men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward.
"But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your
door, pray to your Father, who is in the secret place; and you Father
who sees you in secret will reward you openly."
I don't believe Jesus ws saying go out into the open and display your
prayer to everyone in our public schools. He said to pray in private.
That is where it shall remain.
--
daniel
8-2-86
Peter @ Upper Room
PRAYERS in the schools. We don't want Hindu, Moslem, Wiccan, Buddhist or any
other anti-Christ prayers or teaching in our schools. The society is in the
shape it is in because it has rejected Jesus in the public square. The day
will come when the people will rise up and make war with these teachers of
iniquity and no longer will the children be shot in school, but the teachers
of iniquity will be destroyed for destroying the family with false teaching
and immoral lifestyles being promoted to our children by homosexuals and
child molesters.
--
Peter
Posted to alt.religion.Christian.Pentecostal in main.
(1 John 2:4-6) He who says "I know him" but disobeys his commandments is a
liar, and the truth is not in him; {5} but whoever keeps his word, in him
truly love for God is perfected. By this we may be sure that we are in him:
{6} he who says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he
walked.
daniel <Ju...@sk.com> wrote in message
news:Just-09099...@216-164-247-189.s189.tnt3.sbo.ma.dialup.rcn.com..
.
wayin...@my-deja.com
abortions. I wish you very very bad things.
Die! (slowly and painfully)
daniel
Room" <pe...@the-upper-room.net> wrote:
>To cut to the chase, it is not prayer in schools that we want. We want OUR
>PRAYERS in the schools. We don't want Hindu, Moslem, Wiccan, Buddhist or any
>other anti-Christ prayers or teaching in our schools. The society is in the
>shape it is in because it has rejected Jesus in the public square.
good, you keep speaking for prayer in schools and we will surely not have it.
--
daniel
8-2-86
Peter @ Upper Room
the great lesson of His mercy. May you find Jesus before Moses finds you.
Shalom.
--
Peter
Posted to alt.religion.Christian.Pentecostal in main.
(1 John 2:4-6) He who says "I know him" but disobeys his commandments is a
liar, and the truth is not in him; {5} but whoever keeps his word, in him
truly love for God is perfected. By this we may be sure that we are in him:
{6} he who says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he
walked.
<wayin...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:7r8on0$l6n$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
Peter @ Upper Room
it.
----- Original Message -----
From: daniel <Ju...@sk.com>
Newsgroups:
alt.religion.christian,alt.christnet.prayer,alt.christnet.public,k12.chat.te
acher
Sent: Thursday, September 09, 1999 10:05 AM
Subject: Re: HYPOCRISY of Prayer in Public / Schools !
>
> Some people here in the USA need God. Some don't. However, i am for
> prayer in public schools too. If it includes all forms of religious
> prayer, ie: Buddhist, Hindu, Judaic, Muslim, Native American, Atheist
> etc. Then we can claim to truly be democratic.
>
> --
> daniel
> 8-2-86
-----------------------------------------------
Peter
Posted to alt.religion.Christian.Pentecostal in main.
(1 John 2:4-6) He who says "I know him" but disobeys his commandments is a
liar, and the truth is not in him; {5} but whoever keeps his word, in him
truly love for God is perfected. By this we may be sure that we are in him:
{6} he who says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he
walked.
daniel <Ju...@sk.com> wrote
Peter @ Upper Room
Would that you were cold or hot! {16} So, because you are lukewarm, and
neither cold nor hot, I will spew you out of my mouth."
The days of the pseudo-Christian are coming to an abrupt end.
--
Peter
Posted to alt.religion.Christian.Pentecostal in main.
(1 John 2:4-6) He who says "I know him" but disobeys his commandments is a
liar, and the truth is not in him; {5} but whoever keeps his word, in him
truly love for God is perfected. By this we may be sure that we are in him:
{6} he who says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he
walked.
>daniel <Ju...@sk.com> wrote
>
> "Peter @ Upper Room" <pe...@the-upper-room.net> wrote
>
> >To cut to the chase, it is not prayer in schools that we want. We want
OUR
> >PRAYERS in the schools. We don't want Hindu, Moslem, Wiccan, Buddhist or
any
> >other anti-Christ prayers or teaching in our schools. The society is in
the
> >shape it is in because it has rejected Jesus in the public square.
>
asa...@my-deja.com
> " Christian Coalition ", and a lot of SELF-RIGHTEOUS
> fundamentalist " Christians " want to RE-IMPOSE prayer
> into the public schools, as well as in certain government
> ceremonies, etc..
>
> But what did Jesus Christ HIMSELF say about people who
> pray in public? In Matthew 6:5 KJV he called them
HYPOCRITES!
>
> He said in the next verse that people should pray
> SILENTLY IN THEIR CLOSETS--in other words, IN PRIVATE. (Or
> if in public, they should do it silently IN THEIR HEADS,
The Bible does not say anything about prayer in your head. Of course,
you totally missed the point of the verses, how sad.
Please read them again. Notice how Jesus is not telling people to pray
in their own homes silently for the sake of giving rules on how prayer
should be conducted, but He was telling people not to use prayer as a
method of boasting.
Please see Luke 19:37-41
37
And when he was come nigh, even now at the descent of the mount of
Olives, the whole multitude of the disciples began to rejoice and
praise God with a loud voice for all the mighty works that they had
seen;
38
Saying, Blessed be the King that cometh in the name of the Lord: peace
in heaven, and glory in the highest.
39
And some of the Pharisees from among the multitude said unto him,
Master, rebuke thy disciples.
40
And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should
hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.
> withOUT the SHOWY bowed head and folded hands.)
There is nothing showy about bowed heads or folded hands, and if such
things offend you, you have a personal problem.
>
> Parents who want their kids to openly and verbally pray
> in school can send them to private PAROCHIAL schools, as
well
> as to church Sunday school, withOUT forcing it on others.
Great idea. You paying?
>
> "Student-led" prayers should NOT be allowed where OTHER
> possibly NON-Christian students are compelled to attend,
such
> as at graduation ceremonies.
Please point out where in the First amendment it says the words"freedom
FROM religion."
Also, please point out the law which states that graduation ceremonies
are mandatory attendance.
By the way, student-led prayers are ENTIRELY Constitutional, (it is
unconstitutional for atheists or the ACLU to try to silence them), and
not only that, the Supreme Court has upheald that Bible studies in
class are allowed as well!
In the landmark ruling of School District of Abington Township v.
Schempp, 374 U.S. 203, 225, (1963) the court held that, "it certainly
may be said that the Bible is worthy of study for its literary and
historic qualities. Nothing we have said here indicates that such study
of the Bible or of religion, when presented objectively as part of a
secular program of education, may be effected consistently with the
First Amendment."
In the ruling of Stone v. Graham, 449 U.S. 39, 42 (1980), The Supreme
Court stated that, "the Bible may constitutionally be used in an
appropriate study of history, civilization, ethics, comparative
religion, or the like."
In Florey v. Sioux Falls School District, 619 F.2d 1311, 1314 (8th
Circuit, 1980), the court found that permitting public school
observances which include religious elements promotes the secular
purpose of "advancing the student’s knowledge and appreciation of the
role that our religious heritage has played in the social, cultural and
historical development of civilization."
>
> Robert E. McElwaine
> Eckankar Initiate
> http://www.angelfire.com/wi/mcelwaine
>
> P.S.: Praying "for" someone without his or her EXPRESSED
> permission is a form of MIND CONTROL, BLACK MAGIC, and
VOODOO
> which will result in very HEAVY and INTENSE NEGATIVE KARMA
Is "Karma" a Biblical concept? I doubt Christians praying for you have
anything to worry about. Relax, man.
Asaurus
cschupp
kids don't have their parents around to teach them or to pray with them . So
if the schools can do this then great. The problem is that there are all
kinds of religion, and no one wants to be told to pray in any sort of
fashion to any God that they don't believe in.
This is the problem.
There is ONLY ONE TRUE GOD. Our Heavenly Father In Heaven
And that is who we are to turn to for EVERYTHING. Sorry if this upsets some
people.
This will all come to pass oneday, then it will be too late.
God Bless!
Carol
mcel...@visto.com wrote in message <7r6s7v$a2t$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>
>
>
> HYPOCRISY of Prayer in Public / Schools !
>
> Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Pat Buchanan, the
> " Christian Coalition ", and a lot of SELF-RIGHTEOUS
> fundamentalist " Christians " want to RE-IMPOSE prayer
> into the public schools, as well as in certain government
> ceremonies, etc..
>
> But what did Jesus Christ HIMSELF say about people who
> pray in public? In Matthew 6:5 KJV he called them HYPOCRITES!
>
> He said in the next verse that people should pray
> SILENTLY IN THEIR CLOSETS--in other words, IN PRIVATE. (Or
> if in public, they should do it silently IN THEIR HEADS,
> withOUT the SHOWY bowed head and folded hands.)
>
> Parents who want their kids to openly and verbally pray
> in school can send them to private PAROCHIAL schools, as well
> as to church Sunday school, withOUT forcing it on others.
>
> "Student-led" prayers should NOT be allowed where OTHER
> possibly NON-Christian students are compelled to attend, such
> as at graduation ceremonies.
>
> Robert E. McElwaine
> Eckankar Initiate
> http://www.angelfire.com/wi/mcelwaine
>
> P.S.: Praying "for" someone without his or her EXPRESSED
> permission is a form of MIND CONTROL, BLACK MAGIC, and VOODOO
> which will result in very HEAVY and INTENSE NEGATIVE KARMA
> for the perpetrator(s) ! BE WARNED !
>
> P.S.2: PASS IT ON !
>
>
>
>
daniel
Room" <pe...@the-upper-room.net> wrote:
>Your type of prayer in schools is called HARLOTRY and we don't need or want it.
I am sorry to hear that.
--
daniel
8-2-86
daniel
<csc...@gte.net> wrote:
>The problem is that there are all
>kinds of religion, and no one wants to be told to pray in any sort of
fashion to any God that they don't believe in.
Well said.
--
daniel
8-2-86
daniel
Room" <pe...@the-upper-room.net> wrote:
>The days of the pseudo-Christian are coming to an abrupt end.
>
>--
>Peter
Didn't I see you with a sandwich board sign shoutin in the subway?
--
daniel
8-2-86
Mark Bassett
<pe...@the-upper-room.net> wrote:
>The day
>will come when the people will rise up and make war with these teachers of
>iniquity and no longer will the children be shot in school, but the teachers
>of iniquity will be destroyed for destroying the family with false teaching
>and immoral lifestyles being promoted to our children by homosexuals and
>child molesters.
It is a shame that you do not believe the gospel.
How big a rock can *you* throw, Pete?
Sounds like you are aching to get a chance.
Mark and Lauren Ringwall
is a proud, hardworking homosexual male who uses his own time and
resources to educate children to be safe in their actions. Never once
has he attempted to influence a child or young adult to adopt a gay
lifestyle. Given prejudice such as yours, I'll take his version of
education over your critical and prejudiced view any day.
Peter @ Upper Room wrote:
>
> To cut to the chase, it is not prayer in schools that we want. We want OUR
> PRAYERS in the schools. We don't want Hindu, Moslem, Wiccan, Buddhist or any
> other anti-Christ prayers or teaching in our schools. The society is in the
> shape it is in because it has rejected Jesus in the public square. The day
> will come when the people will rise up and make war with these teachers of
> iniquity and no longer will the children be shot in school, but the teachers
> of iniquity will be destroyed for destroying the family with false teaching
> and immoral lifestyles being promoted to our children by homosexuals and
> child molesters.
>
> --
> Peter
Mark and Lauren Ringwall
>
> it.
>
> From: daniel <Ju...@sk.com>
> Newsgroups:
> alt.religion.christian,alt.christnet.prayer,alt.christnet.public,k12.chat.te
> acher
> Sent: Thursday, September 09, 1999 10:05 AM
> Subject: Re: HYPOCRISY of Prayer in Public / Schools !
>
> >
> > Some people here in the USA need God. Some don't. However, i am for
> > prayer in public schools too. If it includes all forms of religious
> > prayer, ie: Buddhist, Hindu, Judaic, Muslim, Native American, Atheist
> > etc. Then we can claim to truly be democratic.
> >
> > --
> > daniel
> > 8-2-86
> -----------------------------------------------
>
> Posted to alt.religion.Christian.Pentecostal in main.
>
> (1 John 2:4-6) He who says "I know him" but disobeys his commandments is a
> liar, and the truth is not in him; {5} but whoever keeps his word, in him
> truly love for God is perfected. By this we may be sure that we are in him:
> {6} he who says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he
> walked.
>
> daniel <Ju...@sk.com> wrote
> >
> it.
> >
> > --
> > daniel
> > 8-2-86
M Treborp
<Just-09099...@216-164-247-189.s189.tnt3.sbo.ma.dialup.rcn.com>,
Ju...@sk.com (daniel) writes:
>
>>I think it is a great idea to have prayer in school. I don't where you live
>>, but here in the USA , we need God. I don't know what your problem is with
>>God and prayer.
>
>Some people here in the USA need God. Some don't. However, i am for
>prayer in public schools too. If it includes all forms of religious
>prayer, ie: Buddhist, Hindu, Judaic, Muslim, Native American, Atheist
>etc. Then we can claim to truly be democratic.
You left out satanic ritual.
Ulftonn
>>, but here in the USA , we need God. I don't know what your problem is with
>>God and prayer.
>
>Some people here in the USA need God. Some don't. However, i am for
>prayer in public schools too. If it includes all forms of religious
>prayer, ie: Buddhist, Hindu, Judaic, Muslim, Native American, Atheist
>etc. Then we can claim to truly be democratic.
>
>daniel
>8-2-86
>
I would love to see a prayer that covers all religions, even most of them.
Ulftonn
Ulftonn
>I think it is a great idea to have prayer in school. I don't where you live
>, but here in the USA , we need God. I don't know what your problem is with
>and if they can't get it a home from their parents, then school is the next
>place. Your the hypocrite, for just saying what you just said.
>
>God bless you!
>
>
>Carol
Carol a few quick points the post you replyed to is a troll post repeated about
once every three months to stir up the pot. However as it is stiring I guess I
must put in my spoon as well.
I am not a Christian, I am a Wiccan and really dont want my child Christianized
by the state. Here in the USA we have God in many different froms ( and the
Goddess as well for many of us). I and all parents do guide our childern,
perhaps down a differnt religious path than yours but we dont need or want your
path to be taught by the state in schools. Prayer and Religious instruction
belong in the home and Religious instutions not in the Schools. It should be
choosen by the parents, not the government, another parent, or a well meaning
but mistaken religious figure.
Goddess bless you
Ulftonn
Ulftonn
Peter Writes:
>
>
>To cut to the chase, it is not prayer in schools that we want. We want OUR
>PRAYERS in the schools. We don't want Hindu, Moslem, Wiccan, Buddhist or any
>other anti-Christ prayers or teaching in our schools. The society is in the
>shape it is in because it has rejected Jesus in the public square. The day
>will come when the people will rise up and make war with these teachers of
>iniquity and no longer will the children be shot in school, but the teachers
>of iniquity will be destroyed for destroying the family with false teaching
>and immoral lifestyles being promoted to our children by homosexuals and
>child molesters.
>
>--
>Peter
>
Either a attemt at satire or truly the point. Either way it does address the
problem of school prayer and establishment of a government religion.
If this is serious however I note alot of talk about how peaceful it will be
after many are distroyed. Seems the Inqusistion tryed this befor and I dont
note alot of peace yet.
Religious freedom made America what it is, do not let it die.
UIftonn
Ulftonn
>it.
>
And you wonder why we non-Christians oppose school prayer?
P.S. Peter its called Religious Freedom that means we can choose a religion not
your own and practice it in the USA. I know its a hard thing to grasp but try
reading the Constitution for a start.
Ulftonn
>----- Original Message -----
>From: daniel <Ju...@sk.com>
>Newsgroups:
>alt.religion.christian,alt.christnet.prayer,alt.christnet.public,k12.chat.te
>acher
>Sent: Thursday, September 09, 1999 10:05 AM
>Subject: Re: HYPOCRISY of Prayer in Public / Schools !
>
>
>>
>> Some people here in the USA need God. Some don't. However, i am for
>> prayer in public schools too. If it includes all forms of religious
>> prayer, ie: Buddhist, Hindu, Judaic, Muslim, Native American, Atheist
>> etc. Then we can claim to truly be democratic.
>>
>> --
>> daniel
>> 8-2-86
>-----------------------------------------------
>Peter
>
>Posted to alt.religion.Christian.Pentecostal in main.
>
>(1 John 2:4-6) He who says "I know him" but disobeys his commandments is a
>liar, and the truth is not in him; {5} but whoever keeps his word, in him
>truly love for God is perfected. By this we may be sure that we are in him:
>{6} he who says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he
>walked.
>
>
Ulftonn
>
>Mat 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye
>shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in
>yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
>
>The hypocrities that you are refering too were in Jesus day the
>scribes and the Pharisees, and there are many of those types today.
>for You and me, all who truly believe. Many prayers expressing cares
>for others and prayers requested. The question of prayer in school, is
>not about prayer. It is about God. And all of us who believe have a
>right to voice our belief. And prayer is a way of doing it. This
>includes school children. The same right that others have to express
>their unbelief. To believe God is a personal choice. And needs to be
>confessed openly, praying. Hyposricy is false praying. The prayer are
>not sincere, from the heart. So what is the problem? We should all,
>believers and unbelievers, go around with our heads in the sand. I do
>accept their rights should they not accept mine?
>
>Thanks for reading truth, given in love, al.
>
The problem is Al that what they mean is Christian prayer not all prayer.
Personal my religion does not believe in confessing openly with the hope of
converting others. We think it is simply not right. If a child chooses to
pray in school good, as long as they dont disrupt class or seek to offend
another by that prayer go for it. However a mandated prayer, that certainly
wont meet either the spiritual needs or religious beliefs of my child is not
needed or wanted.
Currently any child who wishs to may pray privately or in a group that does not
disrupt school or do so to a captive audiance that objects. (private prayer or
religious clubs/ meetings/ studys ect) Any child or religion has the same
rights to sponcer such a group or club. What else is needed?
Ulftonn
Ulftonn
>
>
>It actually all starts in the home. And that is the problem, alot of these
>kids don't have their parents around to teach them or to pray with them .
I agree it starts at home, and in the religious institutions, where it should
stay. Last time I looked the only kids with out parents around where orphans,
now I agree many parents dont choose to teach religion but it is their choise
right or wrong to make not the governments choise to tell them what religion to
teach. No faster way to civil war exsists, nor quicker way to distroy true
religion then having the government in any way mandate it.
So
>if the schools can do this then great.
But they cant.
The problem is that there are all
>kinds of religion, and no one wants to be told to pray in any sort of
>fashion to any God that they don't believe in.
>
I believe some people wrote a law about that, hmmm I know the First amendment
to the Constitution!!!!! Frankly thats not the problem the problem is people
trying to tell people who and what to pray to. Would you like it if the
Govenment suddenly desided to invoke my Goddess everyday befor school started.
They choose us because we never had a Inqusistion, burned people who disagreed
with our popular thought on religion, and seek to harm none. So every child in
America reguradless of religion starts the day with our prayers? Nope you
would through a hissy fit. Then blame us for doing the same?
>This is the problem.
>
>There is ONLY ONE TRUE GOD. Our Heavenly Father In Heaven
>
And his consort the Goddess dont forget her? One religions opinion is just a
valid as another.
>And that is who we are to turn to for EVERYTHING. Sorry if this upsets some
>people.
>This will all come to pass oneday, then it will be too late.
>
Indeed some day you will come to see the Goddess in her many forms and know you
made a slight mistake. Luckly she will forgive you.
Blessed Be
Ulftonn
>God Bless!
>
>
>Carol
RoCkHeAd2u
truth of the God of Creation, the God of the Bible, should not be begged to
change his thoughts about prayer in school or the values. That person cannot
have the same understanding or come to the same conclusion without a common
background in their beliefs. A person following one "god" will be lead in one
direction of thoughts and conclusions, while a person following another God
will be lead to another conclusion. The God of the Bible says that we will not
all believe the same thing. There are those who will not believe in the God of
the Bible. These will not be able to come to the same conclusion about what is
good and bad or what is right and what is wrong. We live in the world as
neighbors with those who do not believe in the God of the Bible. We will not
believe the same thing unless we both believe in the same God but those who
believe in the God of the Bible should love our neighbor just as we are
commanded. Jesus loved and what did he get for it? He was continually harrassed
because people did not believe the God of the Bible. He was finally killed by
these same people. Should we expect anything less for ourselves for others who
do not believe in the God of the Bible and come to love Him and serve Him.
Spock
people don't. Many people have different religions. Many people interpret
and twist the Bible around from its original intention. Etc. Etc. Etc. Etc.
Who knows WHAT to believe anymore right? All I know is that there can only
be ONE truth. God and His Word, the Bible, are the ONLY ones that have
history, archeology, and many other evidences and truths supporting them. So
logically, what else is there to believe?
This whole issue of prayer seems to get debated in different ways too. The
whole idea of this argument, even in secular terms, is that we live in a
free country. If people choose to pray, whether in school or any public
place, what right does anyone have to stop them? If you don't like it, leave
the vicinity. If you're around someone or something you don't like, do you
stick around or leave? Imposing a ban on prayer in public places is WORSE
than allowing it. What will be next, that you can't talk about football in
public????????
-Spock
Ulftonn
>Ya know, I pray for us all. Some people believe in God, the Bible, etc. Some
>people don't. Many people have different religions. Many people interpret
>and twist the Bible around from its original intention. Etc. Etc. Etc. Etc.
>Who knows WHAT to believe anymore right? All I know is that there can only
>be ONE truth. God and His Word, the Bible, are the ONLY ones that have
>history, archeology, and many other evidences and truths supporting them.
Really seems to me I see alot of history in Egypt backed by archeology and what
they called truths that have more to deal with RA and Isis then the God of the
Bible.
You know seems to me Buddhists also have alot of history, archeology, and yep
truths supporting them.
The Asatru who follow the Norse (viking) Gods and Goddesses also seem to have a
history, archeology, and yet truths.
Ect ect.
So
>logically, what else is there to believe?
>
Faith is seldom is logical it is however almost impossable to argue against as
it is based on itself. I have a Faith becasue I have faith.
>This whole issue of prayer seems to get debated in different ways too. The
>whole idea of this argument, even in secular terms, is that we live in a
>free country. If people choose to pray, whether in school or any public
>place, what right does anyone have to stop them?
What right do they have to force us to listen. You may pray in school or a
public place as long as you dont disrupt the class or force the people to
listen to you. However I have the right to not have my child taught your
myths. Just as you have the same right for your child.
If you don't like it, leave
>the vicinity.
Can't do that in class. My son must stay in his seat, during class.
If you're around someone or something you don't like, do you
>stick around or leave? Imposing a ban on prayer in public places is WORSE
>than allowing it.
As no such ban exsists (except in Urban Myth) and it is un-Constitutional to
try to have one I agree. However Government lead prayer in schools is a
differnt matter all togather. That is the Government teaching my child a myth
not the true religion of the God and Goddess.
What will be next, that you can't talk about football in
>public????????
>
>-Spock
>
Again it seems to spring from the myth prayer is baned in public and schools,
its not just government indorced prayer.
Ulftonn
Ulftonn
>Any person who refuses to listen to discussion and do his own search about
>the
>truth of the God of Creation, the God of the Bible, should not be begged to
>change his thoughts about prayer in school or the values.
I have listened to the discussion, done my own search, and read the bible.
Guess what I came to the Truth that Wicca is the Truth about the God and
Goddess of Creation. The topic is not about begging anyone to change his mind
its about forcing my child to be taught a myth about a religion I dont believe
in.
That person cannot
>have the same understanding or come to the same conclusion without a common
>background in their beliefs. A person following one "god" will be lead in one
>direction of thoughts and conclusions, while a person following another God
>will be lead to another conclusion.
Not true, most religions have some in commen. Just because they are differnt
does not mean they will automaticly lead in different directions. But trying
for force a religion through Government mandated prayer on another is wrong.
The God of the Bible says that we will
>not
>all believe the same thing. There are those who will not believe in the God
>of
>the Bible. These will not be able to come to the same conclusion about what
>is
>good and bad or what is right and what is wrong.
Really Rock care to list some exsamples? Lets see every religion I know about
teaches murder is wrong, (self defence is another matter), stealing is wrong,
all in all harming another is wrong. So where will they differ on what is
"Good" and "Bad" please be spicific.
We live in the world as
>neighbors with those who do not believe in the God of the Bible. We will not
>believe the same thing unless we both believe in the same God but those who
>believe in the God of the Bible should love our neighbor just as we are
>commanded. Jesus loved and what did he get for it? He was continually
>harrassed
>because people did not believe the God of the Bible.
He is not unique in this. Many of us get harrassed because we follow differnt
religions. Myself included.
He was finally killed by
>these same people. Should we expect anything less for ourselves for others
>who
>do not believe in the God of the Bible and come to love Him and serve Him.
>
As a whole I know of no Religion teaching killing Christians is a good thing,
and frankly a few stones from you religion have been thrown at non-believers
accross time but hey "Can't we just all get along"
Ulftonn
>
>
>
>
>
RoCkHeAd2u
"Christian" is not what is the common accepted definition. Many who say or
claim to be christian have not responded to what I see (or understand) in the
Bible as God's way of coming into the relationship with God that would allow
them to be considered Christian. Without God claiming them as His children,
they are not really christian. These multitudes take on the name of Christian
and say they act as christians but they do not have the authority to speak as
christians or as representing christians. How many "Holy Wars" were fought
supposedly in the name of God by those who were not really christians. How many
fightings and bombings back and forth between people in Great Britian have
happened by people on both sides who claim some right to the name Christian.
Where probable not many, if any, on either side are really claimed by God as
His children.
As far as other religions and thoughts on different areas of morality issues,
there is teaching in some sects of the Muslum which teach that killing a
"Christian" is one step closer to what they feel there reward would be. It is
taught by some groups that a person committing suicide while bombing or in some
other way killing others, especially where there are "christians" involved will
get them close to where they feel their reward will be.
If the God of Creation, the God of the Bible, is not true, alive, and real;
then there is no other. If the Christ of the Bible is not God's Son as he says
he is, then Jesus is either a lier or a lunitic. With the influence Jesus has
had on the human race, not many will out-and-out call Jesus either of these two
names. If they don't believe that He is the person he claimed to be, many will
turn aside to some other philosophy or change something enough to soothe their
conscience so they may carry on their day to day living.
DeeAnne Doseman-Flaws
>I think it is a great idea to have prayer in school. I don't where you live
>, but here in the USA , we need God. I don't know what your problem is with
>God and prayer. You need it more then anyone right now. Kids need guidance,
>and if they can't get it a home from their parents, then school is the next
>place. Your the hypocrite, for just saying what you just said.
>
>God bless you!
>
>Carol
>mcel...@visto.com wrote in message <7r6s7v$a2t$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>>
Carol,
I appreciate your love of your god, but many people, in many
part of society do not share your beliefs. I was wondering if you
would object to a few prayers with the Wiccans, Buddhists, Hindus,
Satanists, etc. praising their gods. I bet you would be extremely
insulted in a public situation, if you were forced to say a public
prayer to any of these, would you not? You see the problem is, when
you force prayer/belief on other people, you will always insult
someone. The simple solution is of course, to do your own thing, but
be considerate of others. You can pray to your hearts content, but
others may not really want to hear it. Religion should be a private
choice, not a public requirement. My belief is basically amounts to:
You believe what ever you want, I believe what ever I want. I won't
force my beliefs on you, if you don't force yours on me!" Basically
it amounts to, respect of others beliefs!
DeeAnne
DeeAnne Doseman-Flaws
deea...@deltanet.com deea...@deeannef.com
http://www.deeannef.com
http://users.deltanet.com/~deeannef
"The two most abundant things in the
universe are hydrogen and stupidity."
Harlan Ellison
DeeAnne Doseman-Flaws
<pe...@the-upper-room.net> wrote:
>(Revelation 3:15-16) "I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot.
>Would that you were cold or hot! {16} So, because you are lukewarm, and
>neither cold nor hot, I will spew you out of my mouth."
>
>The days of the pseudo-Christian are coming to an abrupt end.
Hark, I hear the famous "No True Scotsman Argument"
cschupp
Carol
DeeAnne Doseman-Flaws wrote in message ...
Al Fogelman
Just another thought. Hypocrisy in prayer, not only in schools but any
where is wrong. When our heart is right, we pray what is in our heart.
But when we pray with our mind, for our own satisfaction, that is
hypocrisy. For we who have confessed God, pray as God would have us
pray. we do need, in obedience, to search God's Word, Jesus, and let
the Spirit teach us. Then, and only then, will we be released from
Hypocrisy. We just close our minds to self, praying about God, God's
way and Will. For personally God does know our needs. We can talk this
over with God and we can agree with others who have taken their
problems to God. Try to find, have Your heart lead you in, your on
approach to prayer. God knows and loves you.
Thanks for leading truth, given in love, al.
Rev. Donald Spitz
and are lies from satan to led people away from Jesus Christ. They have no
right to have freedom of religion, never mind to have any thing taught in a
public school. The Holy Bible and the LORD Jesus Christ are the true
religion. It alone should be the religion taught in schools. People need
their souls saved from eternal hell fire, not helped in being cast alive
into hell.
Wayne Wastier
not seek the approval of any government. When the early church prayed, they
did so in spite of government protest. It was the death penalty to confess
your faith in Yeshua Ha Mashia, (Jesus the Messiah in modern English)
A city sit on a hill can not be hid. We don't need nor want mans approval
for our prayers. The time has come for the body of Christ to just do what
they know to do, and stop trying to force it on others. If what we have is
real, then those that hunger and thirst after it will come in. By our fruit,
they will know us.
Jesus said, by this shall all men know that you are my disciples, that you
have love towards one another.
Jesus also said, "If they hate me, they will hate you, and if they listened
to me, they will listen to you." We are here to plant seed, but God gives
the increase. It is not up to us to make sure that sinners repent, but it is
up to us to spread the Good News, that Jesus is alive and well, and that we
have redemption through Him, and can receive the his free gift of the Holy
Spirit. Praise God...
Love you all,
In Christ Jesus,
His servant Wayne Wastier
daniel
>The Wiccans, Buddhists, Hindus,Satanists, are all anti-Christian religions
>and are lies from satan to led people away from Jesus Christ.
Quite frankly, speaking for Buddhists, you are wrong. Buddhism does
not seek to hinder faith in Jesus. In fact, all of my Buddhist teachers
have and had respect for the teachings of Jesus and encourage Christians
to remain Christian. You need better information than your fear
provides. Please be more responsible.
--
daniel
8-2-86
Striker
these new's group's like you.
A Brother in Christ,
Striker
Wayne Wastier wrote in message ...
Mark and Lauren Ringwall
it, I will do so there.
Lauren
cschupp
I agree with everything you said. What I
meant was that if does me no good to argue about my God being the one and
only true Heavenly Father, if other people have their own beliefs, because
all they will do is argue about it. I know I need to learn how to share my
faith without having arguements. Especially when it is over the internet.
God bless!
Carol
Rev. Donald Spitz wrote in message <37DC38BF...@ArmyofGod.com>...
>The Wiccans, Buddhists, Hindus,Satanists, are all anti-Christian religions
Ulftonn
Rev Donald Spitz writes:
>The Wiccans, Buddhists, Hindus,Satanists, are all anti-Christian religions
>and are lies from satan to led people away from Jesus Christ.
Really you know as a Wiccan I find this strange indeed. We are not Anti- any
religion. Every person has a need to seek the Truth, some just follow a
differnt path. BTW Satan is you Godling of evil you can keep that myth all to
your own religion.
They have no
>right to have freedom of religion, never mind to have any thing taught in a
>public school.
Again you wonder why we non-Christian religions object to Christian prayers
being taught in school to our kids?
The Holy Bible and the LORD Jesus Christ are the true
>religion. It alone should be the religion taught in schools. People need
>their souls saved from eternal hell fire, not helped in being cast alive
>into hell.
>
Hmm might I suggest a good comparitive religions class Rev. Informantion
helps.
UIftonn
Agkistrodon
Jesus...@ArmyofGod.com wrote:
religions
> and are lies from satan to led people away from Jesus Christ.
Please, capitalize Satan next time. It is a proper name.
> They have no
> right to have freedom of religion, never mind to have any thing taught
in a
> public school.
Only you, eh? Nice how Christians arrogate so much for themselves.
The Holy Bible and the LORD Jesus Christ are the true
> religion.
Ghosties and ghoulies from the other world? A 2000 year old book about
a dead man whose corpse was eaten by maggots years ago as yours will be
some day? I don't think so.
> It alone should be the religion taught in schools.
So, which version should be taught? Methodism? Calvinism? Catholicism?
Mormonism? Oh, I see. YOUR version. No thanks. I'll stick with atheism.
People
need
> their souls saved from eternal hell fire, not helped in being cast
alive
> into hell.
So, do you decide for your god now who goes to "Hell" (please learn
proper capitalization)and who does not? Oh, yes, I forgot. You do.
Didn't I just tell you about the hell that awaits you? You'll be
forever smothered in the flesh of beautiful women and forced to touch
them in their special parts for eternity.
Agkistrodon
--
By the clever and continued use of propaganda, a
people can even be made to mistake heaven for hell
and vice versa, the most miserable life for
Paradise. - Adolf Hitler
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Milton Strumpf
are a few million Jews around who might disagree with you.
"Rev. Donald Spitz" wrote:
>
> The Wiccans, Buddhists, Hindus,Satanists, are all anti-Christian religions
> and are lies from satan to led people away from Jesus Christ. They have no
> right to have freedom of religion, never mind to have any thing taught in a
> public school. The Holy Bible and the LORD Jesus Christ are the true
> religion. It alone should be the religion taught in schools. People need
> their souls saved from eternal hell fire, not helped in being cast alive
> into hell.
>
> > > DeeAnne Doseman-Flaws
> > > deea...@deltanet.com deea...@deeannef.com
> > > http://www.deeannef.com
> > > http://users.deltanet.com/~deeannef
> > >
> > > "The two most abundant things in the
> > > universe are hydrogen and stupidity."
> > >
> > > Harlan Ellison
--
Milton I. Strumpf
Brockton, MA 02301-4502
http://www.shore.net/~mstrumpf
mailto:mstr...@shore.net
"Some say the glass is half empty, others say the glass is half full.
I say the glass is twice as big as it needs to be."
Al Fogelman
you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with
[their] lips, but their heart is far from me.
Mar 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching [for] doctrines
the commandments of men.
Dear You All:
This word hypocrisy? A pretense of having a virtuous character, moral
or religious beliefs or principles, etc., that one does not really
possess. So we do have those who do not agree, pretending they have
all the answers. Prayer, at any time, any place, by any one, including
public school is a personal choice, a personal right. And, so we have
those who have other beliefs protesting, based on their beliefs,
frequently religious, and thru it a desire to control other people.
This, a pretense that they are right, a right they do not have. For
many of us God is real, and we do have a God given right, to follow.
For those who do not believe, they too can express their unbelief. But
in no way do any have the right to control others. That is what prayer
in schools is all about. They are told they can not pray in the way,
manner they desire. That is hypocrisy.
Thanks for reading truth, given in love, al.
Rev. Steve Winter
>Mar 7:6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of
>you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with
>[their] lips, but their heart is far from me.
>
>Mar 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching [for] doctrines
>the commandments of men.
Such is the way of ALL trinitarians!
Matthew 15:9 {But in vain they do worship me, teaching [for] doctrines
the commandments of men.}
Mark 7:7 {Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching [for] doctrines
the commandments of men.}
I Corinthians 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what
I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
[I hope that these verses will show that through manmade doctrines it is
possible that a persons worship could be IN VAIN, and that a
persons sincere belief could also be IN VAIN..I want to expose the "easy
believism preachers" as the accursed satanic workers that they are.]
II Timothy 3:4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more
than lovers of God;
II Timothy 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power
thereof: from such turn away.
[This is a pleasure mad generation even in many so called "churches",
they "hold to the form"(in other words they go to church they have the
form or ritual) but deny the power..they deny the power to quit sins,
they deny tongues (which is the initial power of the Holy Ghost)]
II Timothy 3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and
lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
II Timothy 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of
the truth.
II Timothy 3:8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these
also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the
faith.
Matthew 7:15 {Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's
clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.}
Matthew 24:11 {And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive
many.}
I John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits
whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into
the world.
II Corinthians 11:13 For such [are] false apostles, deceitful workers,
transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
II Corinthians 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed
into an angel of light.
II Corinthians 11:15 Therefore [it is] no great thing if his ministers
also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall
be according to their work
[So Satan's ministers pretend to be Christs ministers..and oh do they
speak great swelling words that appear so wise, and they deftly, and
masterfully TWIST the scriptures, deceiving the masses....
II Timothy 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season;
reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
II Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound
doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves
teachers, having itching ears;
II Timothy 4:4 And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and
shall be turned unto fables.
[We are at that place where men and women will not endure sound
doctrine, but are elevating false preachers that will just call any
doctrine "legalism" and "bondage" and will preach a fable that everyone
is going to heaven if they just "believe on the Lord" and stuff like
that, twisting and perverting the precious word of God....But the Bible
WARNED that they would come and deceive MANY.....
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one
of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye
shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.....
Acts 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all
that are afar off, [even] as many as the Lord our God shall call.
AS MANY AS THE LORD OUR GOD SHALL CALL
Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other
gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be
accursed.
Galatians 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any [man] preach
any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be
accursed.
(the one that they had received was Acts 2:38)
Rev. sTeve Winter
--
Apostolic Oneness Pentecostal /*/ PreRapture Ministry
http://www.prerapture.org/Biblmain.html for Bible studies
Have you obeyed Acts 2:38 as Paul taught in Acts 19:4-6?
Heidi J Cruz
Wayne Wastier wrote:
> The best answer is for Christians to pray as they have always prayed, and
> not seek the approval of any government. When the early church prayed, they
> did so in spite of government protest. It was the death penalty to confess
> your faith in Yeshua Ha Mashia, (Jesus the Messiah in modern English)
Exactly, I think we all need to remeber that prayer happens regardless of law.
But if we are relying on the law to give permission for others to teach our
children how to pray, then we have failed in our duty as parents. God gave us
our children, not the teachers. If you have dedicated your child then you
testified before God and a community of believers that YOU would raise your
child up in such a way that they would come to know their Savior. How? By making
use of ALL the helps God has given you in the family, in church, and in the
Sunday school. This promise does not include the words <Public School> . The
responsibilty to teach our children to pray falls on us. If we set a good
example, they will follow. Let's stop trying to pawn off the responsibilty and
concentrate on fulfilling it.
>
>
cschupp
Spock
Scientifically, where/how did everthing come from? Atheists just say "I
don't know". Christians believe it is God.
The laws of physics show that something can not come from nothing. There HAS
to be a cause for an affect. So, how did this infinite Universe that we
exist in become? It had to have been SOMETHING. As a Christian, I believe
that that SOMETHING is God.
May God be with you.
-Spock
Agkistrodon <eosin...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:7rhr69$rma$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> In article <37DC38BF...@ArmyofGod.com>,
> Jesus...@ArmyofGod.com wrote:
> > The Wiccans, Buddhists, Hindus,Satanists, are all anti-Christian
> religions
> > and are lies from satan to led people away from Jesus Christ.
>
> Please, capitalize Satan next time. It is a proper name.
>
> > They have no
> > right to have freedom of religion, never mind to have any thing taught
> in a
> > public school.
>
> Only you, eh? Nice how Christians arrogate so much for themselves.
>
> The Holy Bible and the LORD Jesus Christ are the true
> > religion.
>
>
> Ghosties and ghoulies from the other world? A 2000 year old book about
> a dead man whose corpse was eaten by maggots years ago as yours will be
> some day? I don't think so.
>
>
> > It alone should be the religion taught in schools.
>
> So, which version should be taught? Methodism? Calvinism? Catholicism?
> Mormonism? Oh, I see. YOUR version. No thanks. I'll stick with atheism.
>
>
> People
> need
> > their souls saved from eternal hell fire, not helped in being cast
> alive
> > into hell.
>
DeeAnne Doseman-Flaws
<Jesus...@ArmyofGod.com> wrote:
>The Wiccans, Buddhists, Hindus,Satanists, are all anti-Christian religions
>and are lies from satan to led people away from Jesus Christ. They have no
>right to have freedom of religion, never mind to have any thing taught in a
>public school. The Holy Bible and the LORD Jesus Christ are the true
>religion. It alone should be the religion taught in schools. People need
>their souls saved from eternal hell fire, not helped in being cast alive
>into hell.
>
I read the replies and I have shake my head in disbelief. It is no
wonder I have never found a religion, that even is remotely capable of
tolerance of fellow man, or an others beliefs! All I am saying, this
time in English real ssslllllooooowwwww: "You respect my beliefs, and
I will respect yours. Don't shove your beliefs down my throat, and I
will not shove my down your throat!" To put it even more simple:
RESPECT!
mariab
spirit and in truth...He is there.
God can't be taken out or put back any where , he must exist in our hearts
and we may be doing our kids more harm than good to allow them to pray with
others....but then again , prayer isn't something you can make anyone do to
any particular God.
We simply have to be witnesses to these children and for many , it means
taking up your cross and raising your Own children , this society is guilty
of allowing our children to be raised by the world.
God says we should walk and talk with him , laying down and waking , this is
the witness we need to be to children , many will come in His name , but
they do not know him. Are we just too selfish to raise our own children ,
Sunday and Wednesday nights are not going to do it , It will take commitment
and lifestyle and not pointing fingers.
What ministry to you have to children or your own. We need to ask for the
forgiveness of us all., and stop the blame game!
In His Grace,
Maria
Strange Doctor Weird
>The laws of physics show that something can not come from nothing. There
HAS
>to be a cause for an affect. So, how did this infinite Universe that we
>exist in become? It had to have been SOMETHING. As a Christian, I believe
>that that SOMETHING is God.
Very logical,Spock.
Agkistrodon
"Spock" <spoc...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I understand how you can have your point of view. However...
>
> Scientifically, where/how did everthing come from? Atheists just say
"I
> don't know". Christians believe it is God.
So do many non-Christians. Nothing special there. Atheists do not say
"I don't know." Ask a few to see what they think.
You seem to believe that the postulations require that the Universe come
from nothing. This is not true. The Universe derived naturally from a
singularity. A point in space-time (if that word is appplicable to the
conditions) at which all the matter in the Universe existed at a single
point of infinite density. No theory says it came from nothing. Why
can one not say that the singularity itself is your "god"?
>
> May God be with you.
>
> -Spock
>
May the Force be with you.
Agkistrodon
"Strange Doctor Weird" <jke...@zoomnet.net> wrote:
>
> >The laws of physics show that something can not come from nothing.
There
> HAS
> >to be a cause for an affect. So, how did this infinite Universe that
we
> >exist in become? It had to have been SOMETHING. As a Christian, I
believe
> >that that SOMETHING is God.
>
>
But wrong.
Agkistrodon
DeeAnne Doseman-Flaws <deea...@deltanet.com> wrote:
>
> I read the replies and I have shake my head in disbelief. It is no
> wonder I have never found a religion, that even is remotely capable of
> tolerance of fellow man, or an others beliefs! All I am saying, this
> time in English real ssslllllooooowwwww: "You respect my beliefs, and
> I will respect yours. Don't shove your beliefs down my throat, and I
> will not shove my down your throat!" To put it even more simple:
> RESPECT!
>
> DeeAnne
>
But it is part and parcel of his belief system to shove his beliefs down
your throat. It is integral to his Weltanschauung that you must believe
what he believes and that it is his right... no, responsibility... to
make you believe that way. This is where tolerance reduces to a paradox.
How can we be tolerant if we do not tolerate people who are intolerant?
I have heard that one used before as an attack upon us. We are
hypocrites if we refuse to tolerate those who cannot themselves be
accepting of any diversity. Logically, I suppose, these jerks are
correct and yet there's something missed by every one of them.
daniel
that is: when we "force" (as it is affectionately called) our beliefs on
others, we are not practitioners of the beliefs we espouse. In fact,
the beliefs in these cases seem to function simply as a vehicle for us to
exercise dogmatic and abusive language.
As most you us know, dogma and abuse is not limited to Christian
doctrine, although it seems more costly because the spiritual love and
teachings of Jesus is the backdrop for this ignorance. Something a holy
man said to me that i found deeply imporant and that is:
"Do not be idolatrous about or bound to any doctrine, theory or
idealology, even Christian ones. All systems of thought are guiding
means; they are not absolutle truth."
Jesus' teaching is only a lifeboat that rescues us from the ocean of
suffering. It is supposed to get us to the shore safetly. Don't mistake
the lifeboat for the shore. Don't use the lifeboat to hit people over the
head if they tell you that you have reached the shore. Don't use the life
boat to attack other lifeboats that may also be rescuing people from the
sea.
If you have a gun, you can kill one, two, three, five people; but if
you have an idealology and stick to it, thinking it is the absolute truth,
you can kill millions. In the name of the truth we kill each other. The
world now is stuck in that situation.
--
daniel
8-2-86
cschupp
reading any of your posts. Obviously your not a christian, and a follower of
our Lord Jesus Christ.
Carol
Agkistrodon wrote in message <7ro4sv$b4v$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
cschupp
This has gotten so out of control , that until this blows over I will not
come back on this site again. There are people that aren't even Christians,
and why they visit on this site, is very confusing to me , to say the least.
I have a hard time even knowing whose post I am answering to.
God bless You ALL,
Carol
cschupp wrote in message ...
Al Fogelman
Are we completely off the subject? Prayer in Public / Schools. Do
prayers ever force any one to do anything? We all have a free choice
to do what we believe. But not to force our belief onto any one. And,
to pray does not force.
Thanks for reading, given in love, al.
Erendil
God as in the Pledge of Allegiance is forcing a religious doctrine upon
children. They simply don't have the were with all to make an informed
decision one way or the other.
Blessed Be,
Erendil
Al Fogelman <res0...@gte.net> wrote in message
news:37e41e84...@news.gte.net...
M. Kilgore
mark
"...to the Security of a Free State..." <fre...@liberty.com> wrote in
message news:37e03386...@gail.ripco.com...
> On Wed, 15 Sep 1999 19:12:39 -0400, "Erendil" <ere...@enter.net>
> wrote:
>
> > To require prayer of Kindergarten children or affirming belief in
a
> >God as in the Pledge of Allegiance is forcing a religious doctrine upon
> >children. They simply don't have the were with all to make an informed
> >decision one way or the other.
>
> I've never heard of prayer being *required* in school.
>
> But as for the Pledge of Allegiance, this Nation came into existence
> in the first place because it was One Nation under God...the Pledge
> simply recognizes it...even if children have not yet been able to make
> a fully informed decision...like to reject God perhaps? Or how about
> to Reject the Flag...or the Republic for which it stands...or Liberty,
> or Justice? And there's no where with all for their fully informed
> decisions there either.
>
> But there's no need to stop there, they don't get to make a fully
> informed decision about their upbringing, education, the food they
> eat, or how they live either.
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> "...WHERE THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS, THERE IS LIBERTY.
> --- 2 Corinthians 3:17
> --------------------------------------------------------------
Agkistrodon
I think most everyone knows what I am talking about except you.
> What planet are you from?
You couldn't pronounce it.
> I have not enjoyed
> reading any of your posts.
They are not written for your enjoyment. They are written as part of
general discussions of religious philosophies and attitudes. Clearly,
you are not into critical evaluation of belief systems.
> Obviously your not a christian, and a
follower of
> our Lord Jesus Christ.
>
Well, you got one right. Then again, maybe you are not really a
follower of him either. Maybe you are a follower of your deluded
thinking about what he was or what you have been told about what he
was. See sig file below.
Agkistrodon
"cschupp" <> wrote:
> To All That Applies,
>
> This has gotten so out of control , that until this blows over I will
not
> come back on this site again.
So, that's what you want. Control over what others think and say
about you little religion.
>There are people that aren't even
Christians,
> and why they visit on this site, is very confusing to me , to say the
least.
Welcome to Usenet. It is what freedom of expression is all about, Lady.
> I have a hard time even knowing whose post I am answering to.
That's because you can't figure out the attribute system.
>
> God bless You ALL,
Which god?
...to the Security of a Free State...
Ulftonn
>I understand how you can have your point of view. However...
>
>Scientifically, where/how did everthing come from? Atheists just say "I
>don't know". Christians believe it is God.
>
Wiccans believe it is the God and Goddess, now of course comes the question why
your religion is better to to taught than every religion? Or no religion?
>The laws of physics show that something can not come from nothing.
There HAS
>to be a cause for an affect. So, how did this infinite Universe that we
>exist in become?
Hmm the Goddess birthed it.
It had to have been SOMETHING. As a Christian, I believe
>that that SOMETHING is God.
>
>May God be with you.
>
>-Spock
>
Many of us disagree and still feel the Government should not be forcing our
childern to pray to what we see as a false God.
Ulftonn
>Agkistrodon <eosin...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
>news:7rhr69$rma$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
>> In article <37DC38BF...@ArmyofGod.com>,
>> Jesus...@ArmyofGod.com wrote:
>> > The Wiccans, Buddhists, Hindus,Satanists, are all anti-Christian
>> religions
>> > and are lies from satan to led people away from Jesus Christ.
>>
>> Please, capitalize Satan next time. It is a proper name.
>>
>> > They have no
>> > right to have freedom of religion, never mind to have any thing taught
>> in a
>> > public school.
>>
>> Only you, eh? Nice how Christians arrogate so much for themselves.
>>
>> The Holy Bible and the LORD Jesus Christ are the true
>> > religion.
>>
>>
>> Ghosties and ghoulies from the other world? A 2000 year old book about
>> a dead man whose corpse was eaten by maggots years ago as yours will be
>> some day? I don't think so.
>>
>>
>> > It alone should be the religion taught in schools.
>>
>> So, which version should be taught? Methodism? Calvinism? Catholicism?
>> Mormonism? Oh, I see. YOUR version. No thanks. I'll stick with atheism.
>>
>>
>> People
>> need
>> > their souls saved from eternal hell fire, not helped in being cast
>> alive
>> > into hell.
>>
>> So, do you decide for your god now who goes to "Hell" (please learn
>> proper capitalization)and who does not? Oh, yes, I forgot. You do.
>>
>> Didn't I just tell you about the hell that awaits you? You'll be
>> forever smothered in the flesh of beautiful women and forced to touch
>> them in their special parts for eternity.
>>
Ulftonn
>
>Are we completely off the subject? Prayer in Public / Schools. Do
>prayers ever force any one to do anything? We all have a free choice
>to do what we believe. But not to force our belief onto any one. And,
>to pray does not force.
>
How about forcing someone to pray to a (in our opinion) false God. This force
coming from Government employees who can affect the total life of a minor
child. It comes in the form of required prayer read to and taught to every
child in a school reguardless of the childes belief or the parents want.
That is School Prayer as used and taught by many here.. do you want that al?
Ulftonn
Ulftonn
>> To require prayer of Kindergarten children or affirming belief in a
>>God as in the Pledge of Allegiance is forcing a religious doctrine upon
>>children. They simply don't have the were with all to make an informed
>>decision one way or the other.
>
>I've never heard of prayer being *required* in school.
>
Try reading history of prayer in school, untill the 40's most schools in the US
required a "Christian" prayer be read every day and the childern particpate in
it. After several court cases usualy brought by Jewish parents the Suprieme
court ruled this was a violation of the establishment clause in the First
Amendment and a violation of the seperation of Church and State required by
that clause.
About every ten years some sect of the Christian faith trys to bring it back in
some form, however as more and more of the populas is now Non-Christain the
objections are also growing.
Frankly the Government has no bussiness teaching my child a religion I disagree
with or praying to a God I feel is false in the School.
>But as for the Pledge of Allegiance, this Nation came into existence
>in the first place because it was One Nation under God...
Umm short history of the Pledge of Allegiance does show that the orinigal
format never said under God, this was added in the 1950's to weed out
communists as they would never say God you know ( didnt work but made a
argument other than religon to pass it through congress). And depending on
what side you were on in the 1860's the it was never one nation untill after
the Civil war.
the Pledge
>simply recognizes it...even if children have not yet been able to make
>a fully informed decision...like to reject God perhaps? Or how about
>to Reject the Flag...or the Republic for which it stands...or Liberty,
>or Justice? And there's no where with all for their fully informed
>decisions there either.
>
But why stress one religions view of National history. I might say "One Nation
under God and Goddess" but would never ask you to. Why do you require my child
to say it?
>But there's no need to stop there, they don't get to make a fully
>informed decision about their upbringing, education, the food they
>eat, or how they live either.
>
No we parents do, except here where so many wish to force thier religious views
upon my child against my wishes.
That is the sole reason for school prayer, to promote Christian religion,
nothing else.
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------
>"...WHERE THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS, THERE IS LIBERTY.
> --- 2 Corinthians 3:17
>--------------------------------------------------------------
Ulftonn
Ulftonn
>Bull. FREEDOM of religion means all religion. Not just what you want. And,
>there
>are a few million Jews around who might disagree with you.
>
>
Not if the dear Rev gets his way. Genocide is a clear indication of most of
his post,
Ulftonn
>
>"Rev. Donald Spitz" wrote:
>>
>> The Wiccans, Buddhists, Hindus,Satanists, are all anti-Christian religions
>> and are lies from satan to led people away from Jesus Christ. They have no
>> right to have freedom of religion, never mind to have any thing taught in a
>> public school. The Holy Bible and the LORD Jesus Christ are the true
>> religion. It alone should be the religion taught in schools. People need
>> their souls saved from eternal hell fire, not helped in being cast alive
>> into hell.
>>
>> cschupp wrote:
>>
>> > Yes you are right DeeAnne.
>> >
>> > Carol
cschupp
value to anyone. I can get nasty too.
It figures , adolf must have been your idol. Well you will see him in hell.
Carol
Agkistrodon wrote in message <7rphvi$doa$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>In article <JCPD3.392$td5....@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net>,
> "cschupp" <csc...@gte.net> wrote:
>> What are you talking about?
>
>I think most everyone knows what I am talking about except you.
>
>> What planet are you from?
>
>You couldn't pronounce it.
>
>> I have not enjoyed
>> reading any of your posts.
>
>They are not written for your enjoyment. They are written as part of
>general discussions of religious philosophies and attitudes. Clearly,
>you are not into critical evaluation of belief systems.
>
>> Obviously your not a christian, and a
>follower of
>> our Lord Jesus Christ.
>>
>
>Well, you got one right. Then again, maybe you are not really a
>follower of him either. Maybe you are a follower of your deluded
>thinking about what he was or what you have been told about what he
>was. See sig file below.
>
Ulftonn
>Mar 7:6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of
>you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with
>[their] lips, but their heart is far from me.
>
>Mar 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching [for] doctrines
>the commandments of men.
>
>
>This word hypocrisy? A pretense of having a virtuous character, moral
>or religious beliefs or principles, etc., that one does not really
>possess. So we do have those who do not agree, pretending they have
>all the answers. Prayer, at any time, any place, by any one, including
>public school is a personal choice, a personal right. And, so we have
>those who have other beliefs protesting, based on their beliefs,
>frequently religious, and thru it a desire to control other people.
>This, a pretense that they are right, a right they do not have. For
>many of us God is real, and we do have a God given right, to follow.
>For those who do not believe, they too can express their unbelief. But
>in no way do any have the right to control others. That is what prayer
>in schools is all about. They are told they can not pray in the way,
>manner they desire. That is hypocrisy.
>
>Thanks for reading truth, given in love, al.
The only problem al is your stating a myth. NO one is told they can not pray
in any way. Every student has the Constitutional right to pray at any time and
in any matter that does not disrupt the class. Schools are even charged with
providing space for those students whos religon requires them to pray duing the
school day, to do so, in such a manner as to avoid disrupting the class.
Students may also meet in Religious clubs or prayer groups to pray, however if
one religion is allowed this, ALL religions have the same ability to have
meetings, even the ones you disagree with.
The Myth of no prayer in Schools is fostered by the people who wish to get
people riled up to fight and install Christian prayer forced on all students.
In short al you have been lied to by the people say prayer is baned.
Ulftonn
Milton Strumpf
"...to the Security of a Free State..." wrote:
>
> On Wed, 15 Sep 1999 19:12:39 -0400, "Erendil" <ere...@enter.net>
> wrote:
>
> > To require prayer of Kindergarten children or affirming belief in a
> >God as in the Pledge of Allegiance is forcing a religious doctrine upon
> >children. They simply don't have the were with all to make an informed
> >decision one way or the other.
>
> I've never heard of prayer being *required* in school.
>
> But as for the Pledge of Allegiance, this Nation came into existence
> in the first place because it was One Nation under God...the Pledge
> simply recognizes it...even if children have not yet been able to make
> a fully informed decision...like to reject God perhaps? Or how about
> to Reject the Flag...or the Republic for which it stands...or Liberty,
> or Justice? And there's no where with all for their fully informed
> decisions there either.
>
> But there's no need to stop there, they don't get to make a fully
> informed decision about their upbringing, education, the food they
> eat, or how they live either.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> "...WHERE THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS, THERE IS LIBERTY.
> --- 2 Corinthians 3:17
> --------------------------------------------------------------
But we should stop bullying them into thinking the way we want, or did you
forget that argument?
Milton Strumpf
who did that before.
Milton
Ulftonn wrote:
>
> Milton writes:
>
> >Bull. FREEDOM of religion means all religion. Not just what you want. And,
> >there
> >are a few million Jews around who might disagree with you.
> >
> >
>
> Not if the dear Rev gets his way. Genocide is a clear indication of most of
> his post,
>
> Ulftonn
--
Elizabeth Woods
belief or respect is forcing a doctrine on them as well, one of unbelief and
emptiness.
Erendil <ere...@enter.net> wrote in message
news:37e0...@news3.enter.net...
> To require prayer of Kindergarten children or affirming belief in
a
> God as in the Pledge of Allegiance is forcing a religious doctrine upon
> children. They simply don't have the were with all to make an informed
> decision one way or the other.
>
>
> Blessed Be,
>
> Erendil
> Al Fogelman <res0...@gte.net> wrote in message
> news:37e41e84...@news.gte.net...
> > Dear You All:
> >
> > Are we completely off the subject? Prayer in Public / Schools. Do
> > prayers ever force any one to do anything? We all have a free choice
> > to do what we believe. But not to force our belief onto any one. And,
> > to pray does not force.
> >
Copperhead
>No I know what I am talking about . You are an Athiestic little man. Of no
>value to anyone. I can get nasty too.
>It figures , adolf must have been your idol. Well you will see him in hell.
>
>Carol
>Agkistrodon wrote in message <7rphvi$doa$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>
Nor do you understand the meaning of the quote. Read it in the context
of your religion.
...to the Security of a Free State...
<mkil...@nospam.prysm.net> wrote:
>The pledge only recognized it after a republican feel good session.
Hardly based on something so trivial but yes, the words "under God"
were not in the Pledge when it was first written. I've heard it
described as; since it was written, two States and two words were
added...let's keep both.
M. Kilgore
mark
"...to the Security of a Free State..." <fre...@liberty.com> wrote in
message news:37e11998...@gail.ripco.com...
...to the Security of a Free State...
>>I've never heard of prayer being *required* in school.
>>
>
>Try reading history of prayer in school, untill the 40's most schools in the US
>required a "Christian" prayer be read every day and the childern particpate in
>it.
And what if any children refused because they held different beliefs?
Were they punished?
>After several court cases usualy brought by Jewish parents the Suprieme
>court ruled this was a violation of the establishment clause in the First
>Amendment and a violation of the seperation of Church and State required by
>that clause.
The greatest danger arises when the Separation of School and State is
not observed. And yes, Forcing children to pray in opposition to their
beliefs is a very serious violation of the First Amendment. But what
did the Real Extremists, those of the State, do? They basically
evicted God from the schools when all they really needed to do was to
simply NOT compel prayer from those not holding the same beliefs.
>About every ten years some sect of the Christian faith trys to bring it back in
>some form, however as more and more of the populas is now Non-Christain the
>objections are also growing.
And all the rampant violence in schools nowadays clearly indicates
exactly HOW Non-Christian they Truly are.
Bringing back prayer, NON-Coreced, completely VOLUNTARY prayer, to ALL
of our Nation's schools is the first step in addressing the
problem...either that, or the Demonic 'prayers' of the likes of
Marilyn Manson's 'Kill your father.', 'Kill your mother.', 'Kill
God.', 'KILL YOURSELF.', will be the order of the day.
>Frankly the Government has no bussiness teaching my child a religion I disagree
>with or praying to a God I feel is false in the School.
The falsehood of the whole public school fiasco begins with
recognizing the FACT that government has NO BUSINESS WHATSOEVER in ANY
public school system in the first place!
>>But as for the Pledge of Allegiance, this Nation came into existence
>>in the first place because it was One Nation under God...
>
>Umm short history of the Pledge of Allegiance does show that the orinigal
>format never said under God,
Yes, I know.
>this was added in the 1950's to weed out
>communists as they would never say God you know ( didnt work but made a
>argument other than religon to pass it through congress).
Congress IS infested with Communists and has been for some time.
>And depending on
>what side you were on in the 1860's the it was never one nation untill after
>the Civil war.
The Freedom and Liberty side of course...and at one time, this was
indeed One Nation, under God, at least until the Twentieth Century. As
for the actual Pledge, it was originally printed in 1892 in the
magazine; 'Youth's Companion'...a bit later than the War Against the
States.
>But why stress one religions view of National history.
To give it meaning, for starters.
>I might say "One Nation
>under God and Goddess"
Yes, you might indeed say that, but it in no way changes the fact that
this Nation was brought into its existence by and thus owes its
existence to those whose belief system was clearly Christian. Thus,
this Nation, the United States of America, has a Christian heritage.
And while it's theoretically possible that the followers of any of the
other religions could have Founded such a Nation as this, it was
nonetheless, predominantly those of the Christian Faith who actually
DID.
>but would never ask you to.
Why not? Don't you promote and profess your beliefs?
>Why do you require my child to say it?
While I most certainly do believe that the Pledge should be a part of
every school day, I also most certainly do not believe that it should
be Forced on anyone.
>>But there's no need to stop there, they don't get to make a fully
>>informed decision about their upbringing, education, the food they
>>eat, or how they live either.
>>
>
>No we parents do,
Exactly...but Rights of parents to bring up their children as they see
fit is currently under very heavy attack.
>except here where so many wish to force thier religious views
>upon my child against my wishes.
No one should ever have to tolerate Force being *Initiated* against
them or their children.
>That is the sole reason for school prayer, to promote Christian religion,
>nothing else.
A very noble and worthy cause to be sure, and I'm all for such
promotion...but ONLY on a completely Voluntary basis.
-----------------
LIBERTY OR DEATH!
-----------------
...to the Security of a Free State...
<mstrumpf@shore*nospam*.net> wrote:
>But we should stop bullying them into thinking the way we want, or did you
>forget that argument?
No, I did not forget those CLAIMS, I've just never known of anyone
bullied into going through the motions of believers when they
themselves were not believers. But I have known of the efforts to
literally BAN GOD from the classroom, the school, the campus, and the
Country.
...to the Security of a Free State...
<ewo...@istar.ca> wrote:
>And not exposing children (at school or home) to any form of religious
>belief or respect is forcing a doctrine on them as well, one of unbelief and
>emptiness.
But many children, just like everyone else, having the inherent Need
for God, often quickly 'find' a substitute one...whether by smoking
crack, joining a gang, or getting into the Marilyn Manson scene. In
fact, just the other day, I saw, in a record store in my neighborhood,
a large sigh proclaiming that the store adheres to the labeling system
which warns of explicit sexual content, foul language, violence, and
illegal activity, and directly beneath it, ominously, "Better
Parenting Begins With Marilyn Manson"...and a large poster of Marilyn
Manson right next to it. There's DEFINITELY Doctrine being taught
there...like Kill your father, Kill your mother, Kill God, Kill
yourself...and albums like Antichrist Superstar. THAT IS the religion
that IS being taught...and the solution is NOT to further use the
Constitution for toilet paper by banning it either...that will only
encourage it more. No, the solution is to TEACH about WHY such vile
Doctrine is Wrong. But that will never possible unless it is first
taught what is Right...and EXACTLY WHY. And that means, going back to
the Ten Commandments...and not merely posting them either, but
actually EXPLAINING and discussing them at length.
Dorothy Sacks
"...to the Security of a Free State..." wrote in message
<37e12a44...@gail.ripco.com>...
Must have led a sheltered life. I grew up in the 50s and 60s when this was
still going on. I happened to be Catholic (at the time), but had many
Jewish
friends. If you think they were not bullied into prayer you must have been
in
a town that had NO Jews or you were simply blind to it because you had no
Jewish friends. The lord's prayer is unacceptable to Jews, you know and
that was read over the loud speaker every day when I was in elementary
school despite court decisions that affirmed it as illegal. And kids were
shunned by others if they did not conform. Now at that time, the teachers
did not enforce much so if a Jewish kid simply bowed his head and pretended
to say the words nothing much was done by the school authorities, but why is
enforced lying good.
Dorothy
Dorothy Sacks
"...to the Security of a Free State..." wrote in message
>On 16 Sep 1999 02:22:07 GMT, ulf...@aol.com (Ulftonn) wrote:
>
>>>I've never heard of prayer being *required* in school.
>>>
>>
>>Try reading history of prayer in school, untill the 40's most schools in
the US
>>required a "Christian" prayer be read every day and the childern
particpate in
>>it.
>
>And what if any children refused because they held different beliefs?
>Were they punished?
>
could and did crack kids across the knuckles or push heads down when the
child refused.
Aside from that the Catholic Schools were formed because Catholics were
not allowed to read from their own bible, only the King James version was
allowed I believe. So even Christians who believed a bit differently in
terms
of ritual and prayer were persecuted by those in power in the schools. That
shows you how petty these things can become if you allow one religion to
become established over another in any state agency.
Dorothy
Dorothy Sacks
have no business enforcing one religion on those who practice differently
or even on those who practice no religion. It is not the school's job to
preach
YOUR religion.
Dorothy
Elizabeth Woods wrote in message ...
>And not exposing children (at school or home) to any form of religious
>belief or respect is forcing a doctrine on them as well, one of unbelief
and
>emptiness.
>
>Erendil <ere...@enter.net> wrote in message
M. Kilgore
approved pledge of fealty to God and the Lord's Prayer.
mark
Dorothy Sacks <tot...@megsinet.net> wrote in message
news:UpeE3.2910$NW5.2...@news.corecomm.net...
Milton Strumpf
should be religion neutral. For the most part, they are, despite your claims to
the contrary. However, a mandatory school prayer is NOT religious neutral. It
professes a religion by an authority figure on those who have no choice about
being there.
Seems to me that you are advocating at least one form of bullying.
"...to the Security of a Free State..." wrote:
>
> On Thu, 16 Sep 1999 06:12:01 -0400, Milton Strumpf
> <mstrumpf@shore*nospam*.net> wrote:
>
> >But we should stop bullying them into thinking the way we want, or did you
> >forget that argument?
>
> No, I did not forget those CLAIMS, I've just never known of anyone
> bullied into going through the motions of believers when they
> themselves were not believers. But I have known of the efforts to
> literally BAN GOD from the classroom, the school, the campus, and the
> Country.
--
Erendil
Elizabeth Woods <ewo...@istar.ca> wrote in message
news:et4E3.1871$LJ6....@cac1.rdr.news.psi.ca...
> And not exposing children (at school or home) to any form of religious
> belief or respect is forcing a doctrine on them as well, one of unbelief
and
> emptiness.
You can force religion on your children at home as much as you like.
My statements said nothing about forbidding your indoctrinating at home.
Just don't do it in schools.
Blessed Be,
Erendil
DeeAnne Doseman-Flaws
On Fri, 17 Sep 1999 02:06:56 GMT, "Edward J. Blotzer, III"
<blot...@stargate.net> wrote:
>If prayer is to be done in public schools, whose prayers do I say. In my
>class I have J. Witnesses, Jews, Catholics (Rom. and Biz), Baptists, Fund.
>Christians, Islamic, Various Asian religions, etc. You tell me which ones
>to say!
>Religion should be taught in the homes and churches -- where they were for
>years. Schools are again being used to solve a massive public problem.
>
>Heidi J Cruz <cruz...@uswest.net> wrote in article
><37DE5E13...@uswest.net>...
>>
>>
I could not agree more! This is what I have been saying, but I guess
when your fingers are in your ears and you are humming, it is hard to
understand what others are saying!
If they want prayer, ALL or NONE. If they want prayer, then ALL the
prayers better be sincere, heartfelt prayers! You do not want to
insult anyone else's god(s)!
Edward J. Blotzer, III
class I have J. Witnesses, Jews, Catholics (Rom. and Biz), Baptists, Fund.
Christians, Islamic, Various Asian religions, etc. You tell me which ones
to say!
Religion should be taught in the homes and churches -- where they were for
years. Schools are again being used to solve a massive public problem.
Heidi J Cruz <cruz...@uswest.net> wrote in article
<37DE5E13...@uswest.net>...
>
>
> Wayne Wastier wrote:
>
> > The best answer is for Christians to pray as they have always prayed,
and
> > not seek the approval of any government. When the early church prayed,
they
> > did so in spite of government protest. It was the death penalty to
confess
> > your faith in Yeshua Ha Mashia, (Jesus the Messiah in modern English)
>
> Exactly, I think we all need to remeber that prayer happens regardless of
law.
> But if we are relying on the law to give permission for others to teach
our
> children how to pray, then we have failed in our duty as parents. God
gave us
> our children, not the teachers. If you have dedicated your child then you
> testified before God and a community of believers that YOU would raise
your
> child up in such a way that they would come to know their Savior. How? By
making
> use of ALL the helps God has given you in the family, in church, and in
the
> Sunday school. This promise does not include the words <Public School> .
The
> responsibilty to teach our children to pray falls on us. If we set a good
> example, they will follow. Let's stop trying to pawn off the
responsibilty and
> concentrate on fulfilling it.
>
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
Al Fogelman
True prayer comes from the heart not from any predetermined words
given by some person. So irregardless which groups, in some way or
other they are all praying to the one God. And God hears the prayer
from the person, not from the group.
Thanks for asking, given in love, al.
on Fri, 17 Sep 1999 02:06:56 GMT, "Edward J. Blotzer, III"
JPKonopak
physics doesnt have anything to say about there always having been
something out of which what our limited range percieves as nothing
could have emerged...the eminently sensible hindus urge that there
have been thousands of multi-billion year cycles of generation and
destruction and new generation...there doesn't have to be a first
cause, it is only our human limitations that make the infinite
impossible
cheers
konopak
Strange Doctor Weird wrote:
>
> >The laws of physics show that something can not come from nothing. There
> HAS
> >to be a cause for an affect. So, how did this infinite Universe that we
> >exist in become? It had to have been SOMETHING. As a Christian, I believe
> >that that SOMETHING is God.
>
> Very logical,Spock.
JPKonopak
>
> Oh, so you don't mind revisionist history when it fits you argument, I see.
>
> mark
>
JPKonopak
loosyanna?
where the loonie-tunes legislature just made it a crime for a kid to
sass a teacher?
Ms kitty1
school, therefore should not stop being
resolved in schools, because of minor
inconviences. Prayer is a form expression
and often times brings about peace, joy,
understanding and resolution. Anyone knows, we could use prayer
everywhere today!
I believe can pray silently, so that every
faith can pray.
M. Kilgore
won't work just so a "statement" can be made. Sometimes we make silly
statements, sometimes we don't. The Yes'm law is just a silly statement, as
is the one passed that requires all students to sign a "contract" to attend
school. BTW, I don't think it's against the law to sass a teacher so long as
you're polite about it. I live in Webster parish. The prayer business is
starting to lose hold, though, and not all schools do it. The situation does
point out something about the constitution - it doesn't kick in until
someone with standing complains their rights have been abridged.
mark
JPKonopak <jkon...@ou.edu> wrote in message
news:37E28BFA...@ou.edu...
M. Kilgore
get attributed to the framers.
"Patriots" conveniently forget that Congress didn't even recognize the
Pledge to the Flag until 1942.
Agressive Christians that pose the "what will it hurt? argument to
government sponsorship of God (I like to think mine doesn't require a
sponsor, but perhaps I'm wrong) conveniently forget what went on in the 50's
during an extended conservative "feel good" session of our Congress.
1. In 1954, our Congress included the words "under God" into the pledge they
only chose to recognize in 1942. The inclusion of those words puts those
thinking they are only pledging allegiance to their country in the position
of pledging allegiance to a God that might not be their own. Good ol' Ike
said of the change "In this way we are reaffirming the transcendence of
religious faith in America's heritage and future; in this way we shall
constantly strengthen those spiritual weapons which forever will be our
country's most powerful resource in peace and war." Ike was alright,I guess,
but he's a far cry from a framer or even a founder.
2. In 1956, our Congress changed our country's motto from "E Pluribus Unum"
("Out of Many, One") to "In God We Trust."
Here we have two instances where our Federal Government has forced religion.
Coincidentally, these two things were done at the beginning of that 40 year
period in which many religious conservatives think our country has been in a
constant state of decline. I find it's appropriate sometimes to ask the
"What can it hurt?" crowd a simple "How has it helped?" question every now &
then.
mark
JPKonopak <jkon...@ou.edu> wrote in message
news:37E28B7A...@ou.edu...
William Smith, Jr.
do it silently--so why worry?
William Smith, Jr.
victory to the same god, whose prayers get answered?
DeeAnne Doseman-Flaws
Silent, non-mandatory prayer, is fine with me! I just do not want
mandated prayer! My feeling is that pray all you want, just do not
expect me to acknowledge, condone, or sanction it!
BTW, just for the record, if you want to pray, do it all you want, but
do not expect me to do the same or require that I hear it!
M. Kilgore
instance, the ACLU waits for someone to be "wronged" and only enter into the
issue if the "wronged" wants to complain *and* invite the ACLU to
participate. That is, it's hard for a citizen that lives in NJ to claim
that a prayer in LA is infringing on that NJ citizen's rights.
That's a key concept that all citizens need to grasp - if a community does
something, that doesn't violate the criminal or civil law, but still might
infringe on one of their citizen's rights, they can get away with it if
nobody in the community that's directly affected by the infringement
complains. I'm no lawyer, but that seems to be the long and short of it - no
complaint of standing = no infringement of rights. I guess it's kinda like
that tree that falls in the middle of the deep woods when nobody's around to
notice.
Before I give the wrong idea of my community, I'll give an example. When my
youngest daughter was in 7th grade, the principal of the school started
having sermons delivered over the intercom. I found out about this because
his sermons were somewhat outside of my own family's religion (Methodist)
and my daughter was confused enough that she ask me some questions. I first
went to the principal and ask him to stop... he said no. I then called up
the superintendent and ask him to stop it. He checked with the district
lawyer and the sermons stopped the day I called. I didn't make any threats,
didn't yell, just mentioned that the constitution said agents of the
government could not force a religion on my children, especially one that
largely inconsistent with their own religion. Two phone calls and it was
taken care of and I wasn't pilloried by the evangelists. After reading some
of the stories on this forum, I've come to the conclusion that, for a bunch
of rednecks, we're enlightened in many ways.
This sorta works in reverse, too. Many of the things that the "patriots"
can't do, they actually can - they just think they can't because someone
told'em they can't. Our constitution doesn't keep prayer out of schools, it
only prevents the preachers from making religious hay with a captive
audience. At any rate, that's how some of us dumb rednecks see things.
mark
Ulftonn <ulf...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990917232847...@ng-cl1.aol.com...
> >
> >That's cold, Rev. Louisiana does have a history of generatin' laws they
know
> >won't work just so a "statement" can be made. Sometimes we make silly
> >statements, sometimes we don't. The Yes'm law is just a silly statement,
as
> >is the one passed that requires all students to sign a "contract" to
attend
> >school. BTW, I don't think it's against the law to sass a teacher so long
as
> >you're polite about it. I live in Webster parish. The prayer business is
> >starting to lose hold, though, and not all schools do it. The situation
does
> >point out something about the constitution - it doesn't kick in until
> >someone with standing complains their rights have been abridged.
> >
> >mark
> >
>
> like any citizen.....
>
> Ulftonn