ART [CNN] Posters promoted white student for African American award
mst
intents and purposes, devoid of a black student population. With such a
tiny number, it's virtually impossible for them to make their viewpoints
heard.
Perhaps the administration should revisit the appropriateness of having such
an award when there are only 56 students eligible out of 1632. I'd be
curious to know the rationale for suspending the fourth student who was
circulating a petition...I think he has a point. Instead of this seemingly
artificial recognition, why not an essay contest for all students about the
Civil Rights Movement or some prominent African American historical figure;
or a poster contest promoting tolerance? This way, they can actually learn
about why we need to recognize the obstacles African Americans face, and
honor those who overcome them. They can apply what they learn in their own
personal treatment of ethnic minorities. Publicizing the work of the
winners will spread this knowledge to other students. It's a far more
authentic way of promoting the message of Dr. King than picking a token
black kid to parade in front of the school as a perfunctory nod to
diversity.
It's understandable that students would be disdainful of this band-aid,
PR-based award, but it's not appropriate for them to express their
frustration in a way that hurts the black students in the school, no matter
how few there are.
--
Teri
****
Father, father, we don't need to escalate
War is not the answer, for only love can conquer hate
Marvin Gaye
"Stack 'Em Deep & Teach 'Em Cheap" <alNOhur...@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote
in message news:biu410pbcaoqqhjc0...@4ax.com...
> Probably meant as a harmless prank, but just too politically
> incorrect...
>
> ================================
> Students disciplined for award campaign
> Posters promoted white student for African American award
> Thursday, January 22, 2004 Posted: 11:13 AM EST (1613 GMT)
>
> OMAHA, Nebraska (AP) -- Officials disciplined students who papered
> their nearly all-white high school with posters advocating a white
> student from South Africa for the school's "Distinguished African
> American Student Award."
>
> Peggy Rupprecht, spokeswoman for the Westside Community Schools
> district, said administrators at Westside High School discovered more
> than a hundred of the posters throughout the school first thing Monday
> -- Martin Luther King Jr. Day.
>
> "The content of the posters, they believed, was inappropriate and
> insensitive to some members of our school community," Rupprecht said.
>
> Citing privacy policies, Rupprecht said she could not specify what the
> penalties were or how many students were disciplined. But the mother
> of the boy pictured on the posters said he was suspended for two days.
>
> The award has been given the last eight years to an outstanding black
> student as part of the school's Martin Luther King Jr. Day
> celebration, she said.
>
> The poster pictured junior Trevor Richards, 16, smiling and making a
> thumbs up sign. A message at the top encouraged votes for him for next
> year's award.
>
> Karen Richards said her son and his friends were not trying to hurt
> anyone.
>
> "My son is not a racist," she told the Omaha World-Herald. "He has
> black friends, friends from Bangladesh and Egypt. Color has never been
> an issue in our home."
>
> "It was a very innocent thing," she said.
>
> Two of her son's friends were disciplined along with him, she said. A
> fourth student was punished for circulating a petition Tuesday
> criticizing the practice of recognizing only black student achievement
> with the award, she said.
>
> Tylena Martin, a junior, said the poster had been on the door to her
> homeroom class where she is the only black student. She said she felt
> hurt by the posters and the backlash that ensued.
>
> According to 2002-2003 state statistics, 56 Of Westside's 1,632
> students are black.
>
>
>
Seveigny
"Stack 'Em Deep & Teach 'Em Cheap" <alNOhur...@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote
in message news:biu410pbcaoqqhjc0...@4ax.com...
> Probably meant as a harmless prank, but just too politically
> incorrect...
Yes, it was probably meant as a harmless prank but not it was not only
politically incorrect, it was incredibly insensitive.
Today, after watching a commercial which advertised scholarships
specifically created for minority students, my daughter asked " What if
there were scholarships for just white people?" My response--they already
exist. She asked for examples. I responded "Daughters of the the American
Revolution", "Sons of Cinncinatti", and most other private scholarships.
She was amazed.
~Cate
Seveigny
"mst" <ter...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:lHFQb.113387$sv6.585373@attbi_s52...
> True. But it's still damned insensitive in a school that is, for all
> intents and purposes, devoid of a black student population. With such a
> tiny number, it's virtually impossible for them to make their viewpoints
> heard.
Damned insensitive.
> Perhaps the administration should revisit the appropriateness of having
such
> an award when there are only 56 students eligible out of 1632. I'd be
> curious to know the rationale for suspending the fourth student who was
> circulating a petition...I think he has a point. Instead of this
seemingly
> artificial recognition, why not an essay contest for all students about
the
> Civil Rights Movement or some prominent African American historical
figure;
> or a poster contest promoting tolerance? This way, they can actually
learn
> about why we need to recognize the obstacles African Americans face, and
> honor those who overcome them. They can apply what they learn in their
own
> personal treatment of ethnic minorities. Publicizing the work of the
> winners will spread this knowledge to other students. It's a far more
> authentic way of promoting the message of Dr. King than picking a token
> black kid to parade in front of the school as a perfunctory nod to
> diversity.
Yes, it does seem like an artificial recognition. I like your suggestions,
especially for a school with such a small African American population. Even
better would be to honor a student who not only recognized the obstacles
from the past but was able to see what obstacles remain.
> It's understandable that students would be disdainful of this band-aid,
> PR-based award, but it's not appropriate for them to express their
> frustration in a way that hurts the black students in the school, no
matter
> how few there are.
I don't know that I would go that far. It sounds to me like the students
were ignorant rather than distainful.
Cate
mst
news:H0HQb.141421$I06.1317934@attbi_s01...
> > PR-based award, but it's not appropriate for them to express their
> > frustration in a way that hurts the black students in the school, no
> matter
> > how few there are.
>
> I don't know that I would go that far. It sounds to me like the students
> were ignorant rather than distainful.
> Cate
Oh, I don't doubt that the students behind the poster prank were
ignorant...but I also suspect that other, more thoughtful, students have
been expressing disdain for this award for quite awhile, and that was the
actual catalyst for the prankster's idea. This kind of atmosphere gives the
thoughtless and immature students the false impression that a prank of this
nature is acceptable, since their leaders do not support the award either.
Seveigny
> "Seveigny" <sarra...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:H0HQb.141421$I06.1317934@attbi_s01...
> >
> > "mst" <ter...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> > > It's understandable that students would be disdainful of this
band-aid,
> > > PR-based award, but it's not appropriate for them to express their
> > > frustration in a way that hurts the black students in the school, no
> > matter
> > > how few there are.
> >
> > I don't know that I would go that far. It sounds to me like the
students
> > were ignorant rather than distainful.
> > Cate
>
> Oh, I don't doubt that the students behind the poster prank were
> ignorant...but I also suspect that other, more thoughtful, students have
> been expressing disdain for this award for quite awhile, and that was the
> actual catalyst for the prankster's idea. This kind of atmosphere gives
the
> thoughtless and immature students the false impression that a prank of
this
> nature is acceptable, since their leaders do not support the award either.
How is awarding a honor to an African American student in a mainly white
environment inappropriate? If there are 2000 students and only 20 African
Americans, does that change the meaning of Martin Luther King's work? Why
would "other, more thoughtful students" disdain the award based on the
school population? I think you give too much creedence to the catalyst for
the pranksters' idea. It seems to me that the pranksters were and are
ignorant of not only the work of Martin Luther King but how difficult it is
to be African American in a white world.
~Cate
--
"Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
Benjamin Franklin
Tim
What do we mean by African American. Notice the period instead of the
question-mark. Generally we don't actually mean someone of African
Descent who now lives in America. Really, we mean Black. Egypt is
part of Africa, as is Libya. But I will bet that nobody in this forum
would "classify" them as African Americans. If you aren't "black"
then you aren't African American according to those of diminutive
integrity. If you are from Egypt (not quite a white guy), South
Africa (a white guy), Libya, Algeria, etc... then you are not black
enough to be a real African American. If you are black and your last
20 generations of kin hail from France, then you are African American.
I do hope that makes sense to adults, because it is (for Sonnet
afficianados) : in folly ripe and reason rotten."
Mitochondrial DNA almost conclusively indicates that all of humanity
descends from ancestors in Africa. Would we therefore all be African
Americans? That'd be silly.
How far back do we go? My neighbor is black, and he, his mother and
grandparents were all born in the United States. Does he lose his
African'ism?
I'm probably about as white as a person can get whilst still retaining
some vestige of flesh-tone, and to this day, I've never been
classified as a demi-American (not Irish-American, not
European-American).
What we all mean, when we say African American is actually quite the
opposite. We mean, black.
We cannot use contextually ambiguous terms and penalize others for
accepting them at face value. The students in this case are ALL
correct. The administrators, in this case, are all at fault.
Doesn't it just foster the stereotypes of Blacks as underachievers
when we make a special award just for the best amongst that select
population? Are we not saying to them, and to everyone else, "Look
folks, we realize that you cannot hope to compete with those of
European and Asian descent, so here is a consolation prize." It sure
won't help them in the civilian sector, where the deadlines do not
heed your race, nor nationality nor gender. They won't garner fiscal
advantages except by competing on merit alone.
I am not color blind, but I am not naive enough to realize that racism
exist as a hindering force perpetuated, in part, by ill-conceived
undertakings such as those implemented by the administration (of their
own volition) at this particular school to the politically-correct
peril of the entire student body when they so endeavour to hold the
school accountable to the spirit and letter of their own creeds.
As a counter-illustration, does your school have a valedictorian?
Does it have a male valedictorian and a separate valedictorian-role
set aside for a girl?
A tip for any administrators reading this : If you have a pizza party,
don't punish people for bringing, eating, looking at or talking about
actual PIZZAs. It's really quite simple. Apparently the students
understood, but it is beyond the pale of the vocal faculty.
Bill Meredith
> "Stack 'Em Deep & Teach 'Em Cheap" <alNOhur...@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote
> in message news:biu410pbcaoqqhjc0...@4ax.com...
> > Probably meant as a harmless prank, but just too politically
> > incorrect...
>
> Yes, it was probably meant as a harmless prank but not it was not only
> politically incorrect, it was incredibly insensitive.
> Today, after watching a commercial which advertised scholarships
> specifically created for minority students, my daughter asked " What if
> there were scholarships for just white people?" My response--they already
> exist. She asked for examples. I responded "Daughters of the the American
> Revolution", "Sons of Cinncinatti", and most other private scholarships.
> She was amazed.
> ~Cate
My freind being either non-PC or insensitive is not a crime or even a
misdeed!
Expressing an opinion that may hurt the feelings of others is hardly
something that anyone can be punish for in a free society.
Hmm if I remember history correctly and I do, there were black men who
fought in the revolution, some as officers, so any outfit that would
award grants on the basic of having someone who fought in that war, in
your family tree, should be open to at least a few blacks men and
women.
If not then the outfit would indeed be a racist one and therefore
hardly a role model to justified, other racist awards<grin>. In any
case The Daughers of the Revolution should have at least a few black
members in good standing and in this day and age I would bet that they
do have some, even if they did not have them pre 1960's or so.
Hopefully the Westside school system will have prompt legal actions
taken against it. In any case as this PC nonsense and the idea that
hurting someone feelings is enough reason to interfere with free speak
is hateful.
Bill Meredith
Bill Meredith
> in message news:biu410pbcaoqqhjc0...@4ax.com...
> > Probably meant as a harmless prank, but just too politically
> > incorrect...
>
> Yes, it was probably meant as a harmless prank but not it was not only
> politically incorrect, it was incredibly insensitive.
> Today, after watching a commercial which advertised scholarships
> specifically created for minority students, my daughter asked " What if
> there were scholarships for just white people?" My response--they already
> exist. She asked for examples. I responded "Daughters of the the American
> Revolution", "Sons of Cinncinatti", and most other private scholarships.
> She was amazed.
> ~Cate
I love the internet! The following is from the DAR web site and it
would seem that no matter what their racist past may have been they do
indeed now welcome black members. So Cate you have to come up with
some other example then the current DAR to justifield racist awards to
your daugher.
DAR membership
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Any woman is eligible for membership who is no less than eighteen
years of age and can prove lineal, blood line descent from an ancestor
who aided in achieving American independence. She must provide
documentation for each statement of birth, marriage, and death.
Admission to membership in the NSDAR is either by invitation through a
Chapter in your State Organization (or Unit Overseas). No Chapter may
discriminate against an applicant on the basis of race or creed.
=============================================================================
Bill Meredith
mst
> How is awarding a honor to an African American student in a mainly white
> environment inappropriate? If there are 2000 students and only 20 African
> Americans, does that change the meaning of Martin Luther King's work? Why
> would "other, more thoughtful students" disdain the award based on the
> school population? I think you give too much creedence to the catalyst
for
> the pranksters' idea. It seems to me that the pranksters were and are
> ignorant of not only the work of Martin Luther King but how difficult it
is
> to be African American in a white world.
> ~Cate
Precisely.
They have zero genuine understanding because their school chooses to "honor"
the meaning of Dr. King's work with a token award handed to the "best black
kid" in the school instead of looking at itself and asking, "why do we only
have 56?"
The thing is this...if the award has to go to one of the "African American"
students on campus, and the most deserving one has actually not accomplished
as much as some other students, then the award loses credibility and becomes
just a token feel-good band-aid for an almost all-white community to say
"look at how we value diversity" when they don't even experience it
authentically (and probably don't want to). It doesn't begin to address the
REAL issues, which would include reflecting on why the community is so
homogenous, or why African American students struggle more in an environment
where they have no real presence.
You could argue that the kids' actions simply reflect the values of the
community, which is an predominantly white suburban enclave. I'm not
terribly surprised that this incident occurred in this type of environment.
Now, IF there was ALWAYS a pool of African American students who're clearly
deserving of schoolwide recognition, then it's not an issue. But
realistically, that's not always going to be the case with such a tiny
percentage.
It's not that I mind the idea of a school giving an award for MLK day, but
to do so based on race kind of flies in the face of all he worked for. This
isn't a race-based scholarship presented by an organization dedicated to
advancing the cause of a specific group...this is a SCHOOL BASED award that
represents the values of the community.
Seveigny
"Bill Meredith" <nos...@juno.com> wrote in message
news:73b5c8f4.04012...@posting.google.com...
> "Seveigny" <sarra...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:<BZGQb.143524$xy6.639732@attbi_s02>...
> > "Stack 'Em Deep & Teach 'Em Cheap" <alNOhur...@NOSPAMyahoo.com>
wrote
> > in message news:biu410pbcaoqqhjc0...@4ax.com...
> > > Probably meant as a harmless prank, but just too politically
> > > incorrect...
> >
> > Yes, it was probably meant as a harmless prank but not it was not only
> > politically incorrect, it was incredibly insensitive.
> > Today, after watching a commercial which advertised scholarships
> > specifically created for minority students, my daughter asked " What if
> > there were scholarships for just white people?" My response--they
already
> > exist. She asked for examples. I responded "Daughters of the the
American
> > Revolution", "Sons of Cinncinatti", and most other private scholarships.
> > She was amazed.
> > ~Cate
>
>
> I love the internet! The following is from the DAR web site and it
> would seem that no matter what their racist past may have been they do
> indeed now welcome black members. So Cate you have to come up with
> some other example then the current DAR to justifield racist awards to
> your daugher.
You have got to be kidding me! A woman has to prove lineal, blood line
descent from an ancestor who aided in achieving American independence. She
must provide documentation for each statement. Do you really think that a
woman who was the decendant of slaves is going to be able to provide that
kind of documentation?
~Cate
> DAR membership
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Seveigny
> "Seveigny" <sarra...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:Ey2Rb.119383$sv6.650041@attbi_s52...
> > How is awarding a honor to an African American student in a mainly white
> > environment inappropriate? If there are 2000 students and only 20
African
> > Americans, does that change the meaning of Martin Luther King's work?
Why
> > would "other, more thoughtful students" disdain the award based on the
> > school population? I think you give too much creedence to the catalyst
> for
> > the pranksters' idea. It seems to me that the pranksters were and are
> > ignorant of not only the work of Martin Luther King but how difficult it
> is
> > to be African American in a white world.
> > ~Cate
>
> Precisely.
>
> They have zero genuine understanding because their school chooses to
"honor"
> the meaning of Dr. King's work with a token award handed to the "best
black
> kid" in the school instead of looking at itself and asking, "why do we
only
> have 56?"
Well, we don't know that the school hasn't addressed that issue, but your
point if valid. If this is the only means of acknowledging diversity, then
one award isn't going to be meaningful for anyone. My school is not
racially diverse--79% are of the "Caucasion" persuasion,
Jim Not-From-Here
the Revolution: Crispus Attucks and Phillis Wheatley come immediately to
mind. Many of them fought in the Revolution.
2. As the Thurmond family knows, many White families have mixed-race
descendants or collaterals. If that white family has a Revolutionary War
fighter in it, so does the mixed-race family. More and more records are
being found, and the evidence of DNA is now available in case of conflicts.
So, yes, the DAR does now have Black members, as well as Indian members, and
perhaps even members who are of mainly Asiatic descent.
The DAR that denied Marian Anderson the right to sing in Constitution Hall
is, mercifully, long dead.
Jim Wayne
Seveigny
"Seveigny" <sarra...@comcast.net> wrote in message news:...
>
> "mst" <ter...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:hNoRb.128845$nt4.575241@attbi_s51...
> > "Seveigny" <sarra...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> > The thing is this...if the award has to go to one of the "African
> American"
> > students on campus, and the most deserving one has actually not
> accomplished
> > as much as some other students, then the award loses credibility and
> becomes
> > just a token feel-good band-aid for an almost all-white community to say
> > "look at how we value diversity" when they don't even experience it
> > authentically (and probably don't want to). It doesn't begin to address
> the
> > REAL issues, which would include reflecting on why the community is so
> > homogenous, or why African American students struggle more in an
> environment
> > where they have no real presence.
Again, we don't know that the students who receive the award are
undeserving. It may be that the student who was nominated truly embodied
the work of MLK Jr and deserved it. We're doing a great of postulating
based on a limited amount of information.
In a general sense, I completely agree with you. I teach in a mostly white
suburb and I encounter these same issues on a regular basis. Some kids see
race, ethnicity, gender, sexual identity and other diversity issues as "no
big deal" and believe that members of minorities create problems when they
provide alternative viewpoints.
> > You could argue that the kids' actions simply reflect the values of the
> > community, which is an predominantly white suburban enclave. I'm not
> > terribly surprised that this incident occurred in this type of
> environment.
Neither am I.
> > Now, IF there was ALWAYS a pool of African American students who're
> clearly
> > deserving of schoolwide recognition, then it's not an issue. But
> > realistically, that's not always going to be the case with such a tiny
> > percentage.
Yes, I understand that problem as well. We have a relatively small number
of African American students at my school. Usually, there is at least two or
three students who would deserve this type of award, but we do have "lean
years". BTW, we don't have this type of award at my school. Do you have one
at yours?
> > It's not that I mind the idea of a school giving an award for MLK day,
but
> > to do so based on race kind of flies in the face of all he worked for.
> This
> > isn't a race-based scholarship presented by an organization dedicated to
> > advancing the cause of a specific group...this is a SCHOOL BASED award
> that
> > represents the values of the community.
Yes, MLK did indeed work for the day when a person would be judged on the
content and quality of their character rather than the color of their skin.
I also object to "Black History Month" and "Women's History Month" Why in
the hell should we only acknowledge Black history, Women's history, Asian
history, Hispanic history or any other "stories" once a year? Shouldn't
these stories be woven into our daily lessons/
Seveigny
"Jim Not-From-Here" <jhway...@bignospamfoot.com> wrote in message
news:101gvja...@corp.supernews.com...
Yes, there were a number of free black people living in the US at the time
of the Revolution. Do you think they can provide the necessary
documentation?
> 2. As the Thurmond family knows, many White families have mixed-race
> descendants or collaterals. If that white family has a Revolutionary War
> fighter in it, so does the mixed-race family. More and more records are
> being found, and the evidence of DNA is now available in case of
conflicts.
I don't know when the Thurmond family came to America. I do know that some
members of the Jefferson family are disputing the claims of the descendents
of Sally Hemmings. Certainly, her descendents can not prove their
connection to the Jefferson family.
> So, yes, the DAR does now have Black members, as well as Indian members,
and
> perhaps even members who are of mainly Asiatic descent.
Perhaps the DAR does have Black, Indian, Hispanic or Asiatic members. My
contention, and I stick by it, is that the women who receive the
scholarships from that organization are white and that the process is
designed to favor white folks.
> The DAR that denied Marian Anderson the right to sing in Constitution Hall
> is, mercifully, long dead.
Long dead? I don't agree. Minorities may technically qualify for the DAR,
but their organization is still more homogeneous than hetrogeneous.
~Cate
Bob LeChevalier
>> I love the internet! The following is from the DAR web site and it
>> would seem that no matter what their racist past may have been they do
>> indeed now welcome black members. So Cate you have to come up with
>> some other example then the current DAR to justifield racist awards to
>> your daugher.
>
>You have got to be kidding me! A woman has to prove lineal, blood line
>descent from an ancestor who aided in achieving American independence. She
>must provide documentation for each statement. Do you really think that a
>woman who was the decendant of slaves is going to be able to provide that
>kind of documentation?
It has been some 6-7 generations since slavery ended. A black woman
needs to have only *one* ancestor out of some 100 that were alive in
1865, who was DAR qualified. Given that most blacks in the United
States have at least one white ancestor, there has been enough mixed
race breeding that it isn't all that unlikely that there are some
blacks with a white DAR ancestor.
There were also a small number of free blacks who served during the
Revolution, and they presumably have descendants who are DAR
qualified.
http://lcweb2.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?ammem/murray:@field(FLD001+12000751+):@@@$REF$
http://lcweb2.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?ammem/murray:@field(FLD001+02003395+):@@@$REF$
http://lcweb2.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?ammem/rbaapc:@field(DOCID+@lit(rbaapc02500div1)):
are three documents supporting this fact.
lojbab
--
lojbab loj...@lojban.org
Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group
(Opinions are my own; I do not speak for the organization.)
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org
Seveigny
"Bob LeChevalier" <loj...@lojban.org> wrote in message
news:j18h10tgus774gufv...@4ax.com...
> "Seveigny" <sarra...@comcast.net> wrote:
> >> I love the internet! The following is from the DAR web site and it
> >> would seem that no matter what their racist past may have been they do
> >> indeed now welcome black members. So Cate you have to come up with
> >> some other example then the current DAR to justifield racist awards to
> >> your daugher.
> >
> >You have got to be kidding me! A woman has to prove lineal, blood line
> >descent from an ancestor who aided in achieving American independence.
She
> >must provide documentation for each statement. Do you really think that
a
> >woman who was the decendant of slaves is going to be able to provide that
> >kind of documentation?
>
> It has been some 6-7 generations since slavery ended. A black woman
> needs to have only *one* ancestor out of some 100 that were alive in
> 1865, who was DAR qualified. Given that most blacks in the United
> States have at least one white ancestor, there has been enough mixed
> race breeding that it isn't all that unlikely that there are some
> blacks with a white DAR ancestor.
I'm not disputing the idea that a black woman may have an ancestor who
qualifies under the DAR limitations. What I am trying to point out is that
the the lineage requirements make it difficult to prove their lineage.
Birth, marriage and death records that far back are limited. For the
descendants of slaves, they are even more difficult. On a trip back east, I
visited Mount Vernon. While I was there, I looked at an enclosure. This
enclosure was the burial ground of Washington's slaves. There were no
markers, no crosses, nothing to show that bodies were buried there. One of
Washington's slaves may have contributed to the revolution, but there is no
marker that that person even existed.. no record of his/her birth, no record
of his/her marriage, no record of his/her death, much less their
accomplishments in life.
So, a black woman must provide all of that information. Posters to this
thread have spoken of women who managed to qualify. I accept that. I
maintain that the women who receive scholarships from the DAR are white,
even though it's possible to get one if one is not white.
> There were also a small number of free blacks who served during the
> Revolution, and they presumably have descendants who are DAR
> qualified.
Yes, I'm aware that there were a free blacks during the Revolution.
Presumably, they could qualify. I'm questioning the reality of the
situation, not the probability.
Cate
Bob LeChevalier
>> It has been some 6-7 generations since slavery ended. A black woman
>> needs to have only *one* ancestor out of some 100 that were alive in
>> 1865, who was DAR qualified. Given that most blacks in the United
>> States have at least one white ancestor, there has been enough mixed
>> race breeding that it isn't all that unlikely that there are some
>> blacks with a white DAR ancestor.
>
>I'm not disputing the idea that a black woman may have an ancestor who
>qualifies under the DAR limitations. What I am trying to point out is that
>the the lineage requirements make it difficult to prove their lineage.
>Birth, marriage and death records that far back are limited. For the
>descendants of slaves, they are even more difficult. On a trip back east, I
>visited Mount Vernon. While I was there, I looked at an enclosure. This
>enclosure was the burial ground of Washington's slaves. There were no
>markers, no crosses, nothing to show that bodies were buried there. One of
>Washington's slaves may have contributed to the revolution, but there is no
>marker that that person even existed.. no record of his/her birth, no record
>of his/her marriage, no record of his/her death, much less their
>accomplishments in life.
But a black woman of today does not need to trace back and identify
all of her slave ancestors (although there were more records of them
than you think - these were "business assets" after all, and most
people kept evidence of their property ownership, just not in the same
form that freemen kept their records). All she needs is one ancestor
traced back, out of a hundred in 1860, and a THOUSAND in 1780, and
that is sufficient.
Meanwhile, most whites are descended from 19th and 20th century
immigrants, so they have nothing to trace back in this country at all.
Thus by your reasoning we should have no white members of the DAR.
>So, a black woman must provide all of that information. Posters to this
>thread have spoken of women who managed to qualify. I accept that. I
>maintain that the women who receive scholarships from the DAR are white,
>even though it's possible to get one if one is not white.
By some legal definitions, if you have one black ancestor, even 20
generations back, you are black. Maybe a lot of those whites are
really black. Skin color cannot tell you, when the definition is
based on the "one drop" rule.
Bill Meredith
> "Bill Meredith" <nos...@juno.com> wrote in message
> news:73b5c8f4.04012...@posting.google.com...
> > "Seveigny" <sarra...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:<BZGQb.143524$xy6.639732@attbi_s02>...
> > > "Stack 'Em Deep & Teach 'Em Cheap" <alNOhur...@NOSPAMyahoo.com>
> wrote
> > > in message news:biu410pbcaoqqhjc0...@4ax.com...
> > > > Probably meant as a harmless prank, but just too politically
> > > > incorrect...
> > >
> > > Yes, it was probably meant as a harmless prank but not it was not only
> > > politically incorrect, it was incredibly insensitive.
> > > Today, after watching a commercial which advertised scholarships
> > > specifically created for minority students, my daughter asked " What if
> > > there were scholarships for just white people?" My response--they
> already
> > > exist. She asked for examples. I responded "Daughters of the the
> American
> > > Revolution", "Sons of Cinncinatti", and most other private scholarships.
> > > She was amazed.
> > > ~Cate
> >
Well I could once more do some research and find the number of members
of the DAR who are now black.
Of course it seem sad to interfere with your narrow view of life, that
you seem to enjoy having<grin>.
Dear heart first records were kept on slaves and besides there was
black amercians in the north who was not slaves from the beginning of
the country.
Hell, in any case,a slave was a very very costly piece of property and
like any such costly business expense, records was kept as a matter of
course.
Bill Meredith
Bill Meredith
Nonsense, the business records of Washington estate would have a
complete break down of the slaves!
The capital tie up in thoses slaves was not a small part of the total
capital of scuh an estate.
I had not seen copies of Washington estate records, but I seen similar
records and they are very detail. You are more likely to have a
harder time tracking a free employee of Wastington then a slave of
his!
Bill Meredith
mst
> Well, we don't know that the school hasn't addressed that issue, but your
> point if valid. If this is the only means of acknowledging diversity,
then
> one award isn't going to be meaningful for anyone.
Yes, I'm extrapolating a bit based on the details in the story. But the
part about the student who was punished for circulating a petition speaks
volumes, I think, about the attitude of administration at the school.
Again, my points in no way justify what the posterboys did...but it's
foolish to ignore the likelihood that their behavior was only an extreme
manifestation of a commonly held opinion. By pointing the finger at the
boys and ignoring the larger issues, the school is complicit in creating
conflict.
Like yours, my school offers no race-based award. We're at 35% Asian and
growing...can you imagine it? As it is, the Asian students win a
disproportionate number of prizes. Last year, of the top ten academic
students, eight and a half were Asian. This creates enough tension...we
don't need more ways to highlight the way Asians are "taking over"
everything.
Bill Meredith
Asian taking over everything!!!!! Lord here you have a group of first
or second generation americans, with a culture that drive/allow them
to perform at a high level in school/life and instead of highlighting
them and holding them as roles models for the others students, you
wish to downplay them to reduce tensions!
Shit that is what wrong with our damn school system. The fact that new
americans can do better, on the whole then even many generations
american white students, by having a culture of hard work and family
support, does tend to disproved a hell of a lot of excuses used to
justifly other groups not doing as well.
Of course this is hardly the first time a minority group have out
perform others now is it! See the limit set of the number of jewish
students allow at american universities profession schools in the
first half of this century. After all we needed to keep thoses Jewish
kids from taking over!
When it dawn of black women that becoming mothers out of wedlock, at a
rate of 80 percent or more, is not a good idea or when it dawn on
black men that being good fathers, is more a sign of manhood then the
number of women they can father badies off on and when it dawn on
black teenagers that working hard at school, is not turning their back
on thier race by acting white, we will get to the point that blacks
can hold thier own aganist whites or asians or any other group.
Bill Meredith
mst
and
> > growing...can you imagine it? As it is, the Asian students win a
> > disproportionate number of prizes. Last year, of the top ten academic
> > students, eight and a half were Asian. This creates enough tension...we
> > don't need more ways to highlight the way Asians are "taking over"
> > everything.
>
> Asian taking over everything!!!!! Lord here you have a group of first
> or second generation americans, with a culture that drive/allow them
> to perform at a high level in school/life and instead of highlighting
> them and holding them as roles models for the others students, you
> wish to downplay them to reduce tensions!
The awards weren't racial to begin with. If we went around trumpeting the
fact that the top ten has become 85% Asian in the FOUR YEARS since boundary
changes shifted the school demographics, it would open up an UGLY can of
worms. Would you LIKE to see Asian students bullied and beat up? Would you
like to see the "average" Asian kids hide their scholastic difficulties
because they're ashamed they can't compare with the whiz kids?
> Shit that is what wrong with our damn school system. The fact that new
> americans can do better, on the whole then even many generations
> american white students, by having a culture of hard work and family
> support, does tend to disproved a hell of a lot of excuses used to
> justifly other groups not doing as well.
There are greater factors than simply new immigrant vitality. Keep in mind
that the Asian American immigrant pool was originally limited to those with
education and financial resources. Keep in mind also that corruption in
many Asian countries meant only those with the means were able to obtain
visas. This is not a cultural phenomenon...it's the result of prejudical
immigration policy on both sides of the ocean.
> Of course this is hardly the first time a minority group have out
> perform others now is it! See the limit set of the number of jewish
> students allow at american universities profession schools in the
> first half of this century. After all we needed to keep thoses Jewish
> kids from taking over!
There's no cap placed on the number of Asians who can win awards. It's just
not in anyone's best interest to go around pointing out that they're winning
more than their share of prizes. As a high-performing Asian student myself,
I can tell you...it's no picnic to be paraded in front of your peers as the
smart Chinese girl. Yeah, the teachers and parents are impressed, but the
other kids will make your life hell in all the little ways that count. The
best thing we can do is recognize them as exceptional PEOPLE, race and
ethnicity should not cloud their accomplishments.
> When it dawn of black women that becoming mothers out of wedlock, at a
> rate of 80 percent or more, is not a good idea or when it dawn on
> black men that being good fathers, is more a sign of manhood then the
> number of women they can father badies off on and when it dawn on
> black teenagers that working hard at school, is not turning their back
> on thier race by acting white, we will get to the point that blacks
> can hold thier own aganist whites or asians or any other group.
The black middle class is as invisible as the Asian ghetto. But they both
exist. Ignoring them won't make them go away. I'm sure your straight-A
African American all-star athlete LOVES being lumped in with welfare mothers
and crack dealers. Just as the Asian kid struggling with Algebra enjoys the
assumption that he must also be a math prodigy.
Question your own stereotypes, Bill.
Bill Meredith
> "Bill Meredith" <nos...@juno.com> wrote in message
> > "mst" <ter...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:<boISb.148102$5V2.792700@attbi_s53>...
> > > Like yours, my school offers no race-based award. We're at 35% Asian
> and
> > > growing...can you imagine it? As it is, the Asian students win a
> > > disproportionate number of prizes. Last year, of the top ten academic
> > > students, eight and a half were Asian. This creates enough tension...we
> > > don't need more ways to highlight the way Asians are "taking over"
> > > everything.
> >
> > Asian taking over everything!!!!! Lord here you have a group of first
> > or second generation americans, with a culture that drive/allow them
> > to perform at a high level in school/life and instead of highlighting
> > them and holding them as roles models for the others students, you
> > wish to downplay them to reduce tensions!
>
> The awards weren't racial to begin with. If we went around trumpeting the
> fact that the top ten has become 85% Asian in the FOUR YEARS since boundary
> changes shifted the school demographics, it would open up an UGLY can of
> worms. Would you LIKE to see Asian students bullied and beat up? Would you
> like to see the "average" Asian kids hide their scholastic difficulties
> because they're ashamed they can't compare with the whiz kids?
I would love to see anyone who would beat up students for doing well
not only thrown out of the school system, but place in the jail
system! So your school system allow harm to come to overachievers!
Amazing!
My my you are for hiding thoses with abilities taht are above average,
so as not to hurt the feelings of average students be they Asians or
others! AMAZING!
>
> > Shit that is what wrong with our damn school system. The fact that new
> > americans can do better, on the whole then even many generations
> > american white students, by having a culture of hard work and family
> > support, does tend to disproved a hell of a lot of excuses used to
> > justifly other groups not doing as well.
>
> There are greater factors than simply new immigrant vitality. Keep in mind
> that the Asian American immigrant pool was originally limited to those with
> education and financial resources. Keep in mind also that corruption in
> many Asian countries meant only those with the means were able to obtain
> visas. This is not a cultural phenomenon...it's the result of prejudical
> immigration policy on both sides of the ocean.
Right they are only from the high end of thier society<bullshit>. The
fact that a group can come into this country with nothing at all but
by working hard, and pooling their resources can set up one family at
a time in business ect.
See the studies done on this group before you come up with nonsense
that all came here with a pot of gold hidden somewhere on them.
It sure is a cultural phenomenon of the first order and one that
everyones who wish to get ahead in this or any society should take
note of.
Bill M
Bill Meredith
their feelings hurt?
I can see no way for a teenager to go through his/her teengage years
without getting his/her feelings hurt thousands of times.
Somehow most of us survive this however.
I was very very bad in team sports of all kinds, so what, did that
mean that the winning baseball team, in my school, should not had been
given praise, as to do so might had hurt my feelings!?
Perhaps we should do away with the sport programs, in high shoo, so
people like I was would run no risk of having their feelings harm?
Odd thinking that some of us place the chance that student might get
their little feelings harm, at such a high level, that we are willing
to interfere with free exprssion of opinions, to prevent it!
Bill M
Bob LeChevalier
>"mst" <ter...@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<9CGTb.170944$nt4.760042@attbi_s51>...
>> > or second generation americans, with a culture that drive/allow them
>> > to perform at a high level in school/life and instead of highlighting
>> > them and holding them as roles models for the others students, you
>> > wish to downplay them to reduce tensions!
>>
>> The awards weren't racial to begin with. If we went around trumpeting the
>> fact that the top ten has become 85% Asian in the FOUR YEARS since boundary
>> changes shifted the school demographics, it would open up an UGLY can of
>> worms. Would you LIKE to see Asian students bullied and beat up? Would you
>> like to see the "average" Asian kids hide their scholastic difficulties
>> because they're ashamed they can't compare with the whiz kids?
>
>I would love to see anyone who would beat up students for doing well
>not only thrown out of the school system, but place in the jail
>system! So your school system allow harm to come to overachievers!
I don't think that she said that the school system has anything to say
in the matter. Kids aren't on school property 24/7, and what they so
off school property cannot be monitored much less regulated by the
schools.
The sort of harassment she is talking about almost never occurs within
the school's jurisdiction, and in the larger world, punishment is
subject to due process, innocent until proven guilty and a judicial
process that can take months to years to work out.
>> There are greater factors than simply new immigrant vitality. Keep in mind
>> that the Asian American immigrant pool was originally limited to those with
>> education and financial resources. Keep in mind also that corruption in
>> many Asian countries meant only those with the means were able to obtain
>> visas. This is not a cultural phenomenon...it's the result of prejudical
>> immigration policy on both sides of the ocean.
>
>Right they are only from the high end of thier society<bullshit>.
The ones from the low end of their society (e.g the Hmong immigrants)
are not generally performing at the top of the American school system.
>The fact that a group can come into this country with nothing at all
Did they come with "nothing at all"? No. They came with higher
education, professional skills, and a tight-knit self-sacrificial,
mutually-supportive, community without individualistic American ideals
that are not exactly conducive to highest performance.
>See the studies done on this group before you come up with nonsense
>that all came here with a pot of gold hidden somewhere on them.
>
>It sure is a cultural phenomenon of the first order and one that
>everyones who wish to get ahead in this or any society should take
>note of.
But it is not the sort of cultural phenomenon that others can emulate,
since other cultures do not have the necessary values.
mst
damage...cars vandalized, lockers broken into and expensive items
(calculators, MP3 players, even laptops) being stolen, and even major
injuries.
At the junior high where I student taught, a high-achieving Vietnamese girl
was pushed down the stairs and broke her leg, supposedly by an African
American girl who thought she was a "stuck-up bitch." But it was a crowded
school hallway, and no witnesses stepped forward so no one was punished.
They couldn't even prove it was intentional. Tell me it would be a good
idea for that school to offer a "Asian American Excellence Award."
Last year, there was a rash of cars broken into and stereos stolen from the
school parking lot. ALL of the victims, about 8 in all, were Asian. My
sister was one of them...and her stereo wasn't even that good. AND she had
an alarm. Clearly, the thieves were not interested in choosing the easiest
or most lucrative cars...the victims had ONE thing in common, they were
Asian, and part of the leadership elite of the school.
I faced years of petty harassment myself...pages ripped out of the library
book I was reading at the bus stop, flat tires in the hallways, girls piling
up to jeer at me over the walls of the bathroom stalls (I avoided going to
the bathroom during recess for the rest of the year...for those of you who
have student who always ask for permission to use the restroom during class,
I hope I've presented one possible reason). All for the crime of being a
good student. None of these incidents were ever dealt with by teacher or
administration because the unspoken law was if I told, it would get
worse...I don't even know how schools COULD control that.
What I went through was mild compared to what kids do to each other these
days, but it affected me deeply. Most of this harassment occurred between
3rd and 5th grades, when I was GATE identified and placed in the accelerated
program. By the end of 6th grade, I had completely rejected academics and
spent the next three years doing my best to screw up in school. In
retrospect, I realize that this was a defense against further
harassment...and it worked. Being a juvenile delinquent (and the only Asian
one in the school) made me cool. No one bothered me after that.
Luckily, I hit rock-bottom in 10th grade and was sent away. The change of
environment helped turn me around and redirected my energies towards school.
If that hadn't happened, though...I don't know. None of my friends from my
delinquent years are doing too well right now.
A lot of these problems could have been avoided if my elementary schools
didn't make such a BIG FUCKING DEAL about me being gifted AND Chinese. Kids
in my classes were told to ask me for help when the teacher was too busy.
When we did projects, mine was always singled out as the example...one time
I specifically remember my first grade teacher saying "Everyone did very
well, your projects looked like it was done by third graders. But TERI'S
project was SO good it looked like a fifth grader had done it." You can
imagine what my recesses were like THAT day.
So Bill...other than your stereotypical assumptions about what Asian whiz
kids are, what do you REALLY know about what's good for them?
--
Teri
****
Father, father, we don't need to escalate
War is not the answer, for only love can conquer hate
Marvin Gaye
"Bill Meredith" <nos...@juno.com> wrote in message
news:73b5c8f4.04020...@posting.google.com...
mst
> not only thrown out of the school system, but place in the jail
> system! So your school system allow harm to come to overachievers!
> Amazing!
I would like to see YOU find them and bring them to justice. While you're
at it, why not head down to South Central and put an end to the war between
the Crips and the Bloods?
The bullies don't just stalk on school grounds, you know. They know where
we live.
> My my you are for hiding thoses with abilities taht are above average,
> so as not to hurt the feelings of average students be they Asians or
> others! AMAZING!
Who said HIDE? I just said that there's no need to make a bid deal about
their ethnicity.
> Right they are only from the high end of thier society<bullshit>. The
> fact that a group can come into this country with nothing at all but
> by working hard, and pooling their resources can set up one family at
> a time in business ect.
Nothing? Who said they came with nothing? Most came here with a degree, or
admission to a college program. Until 1996, very few Asians who came the US
were from the true working classes. Even if they had to take a lower paying
job, they had better skills and training than the average American. That's
not nothing.
My father, for example, came to the US with a Masters in Philosophy. He
couldn't find a decent job in his field so we struggled financially, but I
know that his education provided ME with resources I would not have had if
he was a semi-literate farmworker. That's something that most Mexican
immigrants DON'T have...educated parents. Don't underestimate the value of
that. I don't, I know it gave me an advantage growing up, even if we drove
beat-up clunkers and never went on vacation.
> See the studies done on this group before you come up with nonsense
> that all came here with a pot of gold hidden somewhere on them.
You're pretty narrowminded if you think resources are purely material. Of
course, that's a pretty typical American perspective.
> It sure is a cultural phenomenon of the first order and one that
> everyones who wish to get ahead in this or any society should take
> note of.
You've been spouting stereotypical assumptions based on sensationalistic
media hype. Why don't you learn something about it before arguing with me
about what phenomenons exist in MY culture?
Or are you just another arrogant white American male who thinks he can
dictate the parameters of other peoples' cultures?
See, I can regurgitate stereotypes about YOU, too.
Teri
Bill Meredith
> This is NOT about their FEELINGS being hurt. This is about serious
> damage...cars vandalized, lockers broken into and expensive items
> (calculators, MP3 players, even laptops) being stolen, and even major
> injuries.
>
> At the junior high where I student taught, a high-achieving Vietnamese girl
> was pushed down the stairs and broke her leg, supposedly by an African
> American girl who thought she was a "stuck-up bitch." But it was a crowded
> school hallway, and no witnesses stepped forward so no one was punished.
> They couldn't even prove it was intentional. Tell me it would be a good
> idea for that school to offer a "Asian American Excellence Award."
>
> Last year, there was a rash of cars broken into and stereos stolen from the
> school parking lot. ALL of the victims, about 8 in all, were Asian. My
> sister was one of them...and her stereo wasn't even that good. AND she had
> an alarm. Clearly, the thieves were not interested in choosing the easiest
> or most lucrative cars...the victims had ONE thing in common, they were
> Asian, and part of the leadership elite of the school.
So it is your position that hoodlum students should be allow to run
the schools and no actions should be taken by the school if there is
any chance that thoses hoodlums would be upset?
Seem to me, that in your case, that the school system was not doing it
job of protecting it students from harm and actions should have been
taken against the school system to force it to do so.
I came from a time period where having arm police officers in shools
would have been consider science fiction, yet hoodlums was not allow
to have any say in the running of the schools and if the conditions
you speak of have occur, my parents and other parents would have taken
strong actions to end them. Where was your parents by the way and the
other parents of the high achievers when this nonsense was going on?
You seem to have learn one hell of a lession, Ie that hoodlums run the
schools, and therefore the only way to survive is to keep your head
down. As a foot note, I am not for giving awards base of groups, but I
am sure in hell for praising all high achieving students.
In the Westside case the school system have no problem kicking out
high achieving students for a few days , for being non-pc, so I can
see no reason why it would have any problem kicking out students who
would harm others!
Bill Meredith
Bill Meredith
> nos...@juno.com (Bill Meredith) wrote:
> >"mst" <ter...@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<9CGTb.170944$nt4.760042@attbi_s51>...
> >> > Asian taking over everything!!!!! Lord here you have a group of first
> >> > or second generation americans, with a culture that drive/allow them
> >> > to perform at a high level in school/life and instead of highlighting
> >> > them and holding them as roles models for the others students, you
> >> > wish to downplay them to reduce tensions!
> >>
> >> The awards weren't racial to begin with. If we went around trumpeting the
> >> fact that the top ten has become 85% Asian in the FOUR YEARS since boundary
> >> changes shifted the school demographics, it would open up an UGLY can of
> >> worms. Would you LIKE to see Asian students bullied and beat up? Would you
> >> like to see the "average" Asian kids hide their scholastic difficulties
> >> because they're ashamed they can't compare with the whiz kids?
> >
> >I would love to see anyone who would beat up students for doing well
> >not only thrown out of the school system, but place in the jail
> >system! So your school system allow harm to come to overachievers!
>
> I don't think that she said that the school system has anything to say
> in the matter. Kids aren't on school property 24/7, and what they so
> off school property cannot be monitored much less regulated by the
> schools.
>
> The sort of harassment she is talking about almost never occurs within
> the school's jurisdiction, and in the larger world, punishment is
> subject to due process, innocent until proven guilty and a judicial
> process that can take months to years to work out.
First her complains see to be from her earily schooling years, years
during which she should have been under adult supervision, of one kind
or another in and out of school.
As far as courts taking time a restraining order, for example, can be
gotten in less then a day.
In any case from reading her messages it would seem that her problems
was school base and the schools system, would be under an obligation,
to provide safe passenge to and from the school grounds as well as
protection on school property.
Bill Meredith
Bill Meredith
enforcing peace and good order in our school systems and that we are
all at the whim of very young hoodlums remind me of the Y2K debate,
where people claimed that our whole civilation was at risk of
collapse.
Too bad there are not a date certain where the claims that we can not
police our school systems, can be proven wrong<grin>.
I feel bad that the young woman was pick upon because of her abilities
and race, however she sure the hell seem to had drawn the wrong
conclusions, as a result. IE the only way of dealing with it is to
keep a low profile.
Both the school system and her parents and if need be the court
system, should have stop the hoodlums. That the school system had the
power to do so, even if they did not do so, seem on the face of it
clear. If a school system can removed high achieving students for the
"misdeed" of hurting others feelings and being non-pc then hoodlums
who seem to had make her life very unpleasure should have been removed
untill they learn proper behavior.
God it is sad that anyone would be subjected to the kind of things she
write about, but the problem was not that the school reward her for
her abilities, but that the school did not stop thoses who pick upon
her as a result and that she did not have parents who would have force
the system to react in the correct way.
Because of human nature high schoolers will always break up into
groupings, but it is up the adults to limit negative inactions between
groups. In the 60's I was a book worm and a high achiever in the math
and science courses and more a loner then not and then add on a speach
defect on top of that!
However the adults kept the harassment within limits, and the lession
I learn was not to keep a low profile but to take names and kick rear
ends, as needed.
Of course it did help that I was always large for my age and that I
was an only child of very loving parents. The results was that my
self esteem was off the chart and the stated opinion of hoodlums did
not mean a great deal to me and that I was able to handle any more
direct harasment with ease.
Most of us had have problems during our school years, that is the
nature of human condition, however adults have a responseble to keep
them within limit.
Bill Meredith
Bob LeChevalier
>Bob LeChevalier <loj...@lojban.org> wrote in message news:<tp102050bf80l2ov1...@4ax.com>...
>> >not only thrown out of the school system, but place in the jail
>> >system! So your school system allow harm to come to overachievers!
>>
>> I don't think that she said that the school system has anything to say
>> in the matter. Kids aren't on school property 24/7, and what they so
>> off school property cannot be monitored much less regulated by the
>> schools.
>>
>> The sort of harassment she is talking about almost never occurs within
>> the school's jurisdiction, and in the larger world, punishment is
>> subject to due process, innocent until proven guilty and a judicial
>> process that can take months to years to work out.
>
>First her complains see to be from her earily schooling years, years
>during which she should have been under adult supervision, of one kind
>or another in and out of school.
I think you might be making cultural assumptions about the degree of
adult supervision that kids "should be under" at various ages, that
not all cultures share. I also think that "should be"s aside, the
reality of American society is that lots of kids are latchkey kids
whose parent(s) are at work all day, and hence have no direct
supervision from the time school lets out until one parent gets home.
But be that as it may, when I was a kid, even as early as 1st grade, I
walked to school 3 blocks without any adults holding my hand or
otherwise watching me. I also walked to friends houses a few blocks
away to play. That was in the late 50s, and hence is not a failing of
present society. I did not suffer too much from bullies, being large
for my age, but I knew of other kids who did. And there were a couple
of bullying episodes by older kids for me as well; mostly
psychological rather than physical.
>As far as courts taking time a restraining order, for example, can be
>gotten in less then a day.
A restraining order requires that parents have the cultural
realization that this is possible (much less a good idea) and that
parents have the money. It also likely requires some evidence that
there is something in need of restraint. Unfortunately, the line
between psychological torment and "exercising free speech" is quite
thin and subjective in the absence of demonstrated damage.
>In any case from reading her messages it would seem that her problems
>was school base and the schools system, would be under an obligation,
>to provide safe passenge to and from the school grounds as well as
>protection on school property.
The schools are not obligated to do any more than the voters obligate
them to do. Public schools are a welfare benefit, and we don't let
welfare recipients dictate the terms of their benefits.
Unless the schools are providing transportation, their responsibility
generally ends the moment the kid leaves the campus. If we wanted to
have schools provide greater supervision outside of school hours, we
would need to pay higher taxes for the personnel to do so. Don't hold
your breath.
Bob LeChevalier
>> Last year, there was a rash of cars broken into and stereos stolen from the
>> school parking lot. ALL of the victims, about 8 in all, were Asian. My
>> sister was one of them...and her stereo wasn't even that good. AND she had
>> an alarm. Clearly, the thieves were not interested in choosing the easiest
>> or most lucrative cars...the victims had ONE thing in common, they were
>> Asian, and part of the leadership elite of the school.
>
>So it is your position that hoodlum students should be allow to run
>the schools and no actions should be taken by the school if there is
>any chance that thoses hoodlums would be upset?
The school system is not the police department. It is up to the
police to track down and arrest criminals. the school has no way of
knowing who is responsible, and without a conviction, government
cannot punish anyone for a crime. You know: "innocent until proven
guilty"?
>I came from a time period where having arm police officers in shools
>would have been consider science fiction, yet hoodlums was not allow
>to have any say in the running of the schools and if the conditions
>you speak of have occur,
In that earlier time period there were indeed schools that were
largely run by hoodlums. "Blackboard Jungle" was made in 1955.
Bill Meredith
> nos...@juno.com (Bill Meredith) wrote:
> >> Last year, there was a rash of cars broken into and stereos stolen from the
> >> school parking lot. ALL of the victims, about 8 in all, were Asian. My
> >> sister was one of them...and her stereo wasn't even that good. AND she had
> >> an alarm. Clearly, the thieves were not interested in choosing the easiest
> >> or most lucrative cars...the victims had ONE thing in common, they were
> >> Asian, and part of the leadership elite of the school.
> >
> >So it is your position that hoodlum students should be allow to run
> >the schools and no actions should be taken by the school if there is
> >any chance that thoses hoodlums would be upset?
>
> The school system is not the police department. It is up to the
> police to track down and arrest criminals. the school has no way of
> knowing who is responsible, and without a conviction, government
> cannot punish anyone for a crime. You know: "innocent until proven
> guilty"?
>
Lord the school system is responssable for taking care that thoses on
it property IE taking care of it "customers".
Just like a business, if the owners know there are unsafe conditions
of any kind they must take steps to deal with them.
If cars, for example, are being damage on thier property they need to
get securtiy of some kind to deal with the problem be that security a
off duty cop or cmaeras or whatever.
As far as the school system not being the police, in my area of the
country, the school system have it own damn police department,
reporting to the school board! This is not uncommon the private
Universal of Miami, have it own police department with full power of
arrest etc.
Bill Meredith
Bob LeChevalier
>Bob LeChevalier <loj...@lojban.org> wrote in message news:<6j0320hnkn33trut2...@4ax.com>...
>> >the schools and no actions should be taken by the school if there is
>> >any chance that thoses hoodlums would be upset?
>>
>> The school system is not the police department. It is up to the
>> police to track down and arrest criminals. the school has no way of
>> knowing who is responsible, and without a conviction, government
>> cannot punish anyone for a crime. You know: "innocent until proven
>> guilty"?
>
>Lord the school system is responssable for taking care that thoses on
>it property IE taking care of it "customers".
>
>Just like a business, if the owners know there are unsafe conditions
>of any kind they must take steps to deal with them.
>
>If cars, for example, are being damage on thier property they need to
>get securtiy of some kind to deal with the problem be that security a
>off duty cop or cmaeras or whatever.
The issue is usually what takes place OFF school property.
But if schools are responsible and need to do more, just remember what
that means: taxpayers are responsible and need to pay more.
Bill Meredith
> "Bill Meredith" <nos...@juno.com> wrote in message
> > I would love to see anyone who would beat up students for doing well
> > not only thrown out of the school system, but place in the jail
> > system! So your school system allow harm to come to overachievers!
> > Amazing!
>
> I would like to see YOU find them and bring them to justice. While you're
> at it, why not head down to South Central and put an end to the war between
> the Crips and the Bloods?
>
> The bullies don't just stalk on school grounds, you know. They know where
> we live.
>
They know where you life and these young hoodlums are not only willing
to come to your home but deal with your parents as well! Petty good
for hoodlums that was 5 graders or so, at least that when you messages
claim your have the most problems
Seem odd that with police offeciers in the school, tip line numbers
posted on the wall of the schools etc etc etc, that no one know who
the hoodlums are.
> > My my you are for hiding thoses with abilities taht are above average,
> > so as not to hurt the feelings of average students be they Asians or
> > others! AMAZING!
>
> Who said HIDE? I just said that there's no need to make a bid deal about
> their ethnicity.
>
> > Right they are only from the high end of thier society<bullshit>. The
> > fact that a group can come into this country with nothing at all but
> > by working hard, and pooling their resources can set up one family at
> > a time in business ect.
>
> Nothing? Who said they came with nothing? Most came here with a degree, or
> admission to a college program. Until 1996, very few Asians who came the US
> were from the true working classes. Even if they had to take a lower paying
> job, they had better skills and training than the average American. That's
> not nothing.
See the studies that was done on the asians that came into the Texas
gulf area and took over the fishing business. They did not have
master degrees for the most part.
It might be a good idea if you read and learn a like bit more about
"your people" that are not from the highly educated class.
You seem to know one hell of a lot less about this group then I do. If
I can find the time I will try to find the links to the studies for
you.
Bill M
Mark ProbertFebruary 5, 2004
> They know where you life and these young hoodlums are not only willing
> to come to your home but deal with your parents as well! Petty good
> for hoodlums that was 5 graders or so, at least that when you messages
> claim your have the most problems
Excellent point. In the Mepham HS case, Bellmore, NY, in my home district,
the people who have spoken out on the side of the victims have been
threatened by persons unknown.
When my business partner confronted the same district over the abuse
students were heaping on his daughter, they visited his house at 3:00 AM and
caused over $10K of damage before he caught one. The parents of that kid
charged my partner with assault, although he caught the kid in the act. His
daddy was a former assistant prosecutor.
sf
2004" <MarkProb...@lumbercartel.com> wrote:
> The parents of that kid charged my partner with
> assault, although he caught the kid in the act.
I thought the day of perpetrators being able to sue REAL
victims because they hurt themselves while committing a
crime was passé, so my question is who prevailed... your
partner or the perp?
> His daddy was a former assistant prosecutor.
>
Which doesn't make what that kid did right. It just gives
him an extra layer of protection.
Practice safe eating - always use condiments
Mark ProbertFebruary 6, 2004
"sf" <nob...@pipeline.com> wrote in message
news:6ov520d0bc63f88f2...@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 05 Feb 2004 22:37:11 GMT, "Mark ProbertFebruary 5,
> 2004" <MarkProb...@lumbercartel.com> wrote:
>
> > The parents of that kid charged my partner with
> > assault, although he caught the kid in the act.
>
> I thought the day of perpetrators being able to sue REAL
> victims because they hurt themselves while committing a
> crime was passé, so my question is who prevailed... your
> partner or the perp?
My partner paid for the repairs out of his own pocket inspite of the
insurance he carried. They weaseled out of it, claiming that it was a
personal act caused by his daughters relationships.
> > His daddy was a former assistant prosecutor.
> >
>
> Which doesn't make what that kid did right. It just gives
> him an extra layer of protection.
Such as getting away with it.
Remeember, the ONLY reasons the Mepham kids are being handled the way they
are is because they did their crim eoutside of our county.
mst
> the schools and no actions should be taken by the school if there is
> any chance that thoses hoodlums would be upset?
Are you being purposely dense?
My point is that there are some things that the schools, the police and the
government CANNOT control, even though they would LIKE TO. They may WANT to
punish the bullies and petty thieves that harass their students, but cannot,
due to lack of evidence. Are you implying that we suspend the perp's civil
rights simply because the crimes occur on a school campus? Given these
problems, is it so unreasonable for the victims of these unpunished crimes
to want to PREVENT future harassment by keeping a low profile?
mst
> gulf area and took over the fishing business. They did not have
> master degrees for the most part.
That is ONE small sample. And as I recall, when those fishermen arrived,
the locals didn't exactly welcome them with open arms. Note that Texas
hasn't been a particularly popular destination for Asian immigrants. If
you're basing your perception of Asians on their experience, you could
hardly call it typical.
Considering that A. I am Asian B. I am an immigrant C. I live in the Bay
Area, the region with the highest concentration of Asians in the US and D.
I've studied Asian American history both formally and for personal
enrichment for fifteen years, I'm reasonably confident I know more about
this than you do.
> It might be a good idea if you read and learn a like bit more about
> "your people" that are not from the highly educated class.
I know they exist. I also know that until very recently, there were very
few of them in the US. I'm not being elitist here, I'm pointing out
inequities in US immigration policy. Instead of clinging to your
assumptions, why not take a look at historical immigration patterns? I'm
not making this up, it's on the books. There is an extensive body of
research (and it's academic research, not semi-anecdotal,
popular-newsmagazine-poll research) that supports this.
> You seem to know one hell of a lot less about this group then I do. If
> I can find the time I will try to find the links to the studies for
> you.
Just THINK about the arrogance of your comment. Why would you want to feed
into that stereotype?
mst
> enforcing peace and good order in our school systems and that we are
> all at the whim of very young hoodlums remind me of the Y2K debate,
> where people claimed that our whole civilation was at risk of
> collapse.
I think you're the only one here who has mentioned the word "hoodlum." For
the most part, these crimes are not committed by hardened criminals. Most
of the kids who do this don't make a lifelong habit of it, it's just a
phase, a few bad acts in an otherwise unoffensive life...which is why they
get away with it.
The point is, they're not going to be caught or punished. Not because
people don't care, not because they don't deserve it, but because by the
very nature of random, sporadic violence it is DAMNED difficult to catch
them and bring them to justice. Most criminals aren't caught the first time
they commit a crime, are they?
Bill Meredith
> "Bill Meredith" <nos...@juno.com> wrote in message
> > You know that this thread where people claim that there is no way of
> > enforcing peace and good order in our school systems and that we are
> > all at the whim of very young hoodlums remind me of the Y2K debate,
> > where people claimed that our whole civilation was at risk of
> > collapse.
>
> I think you're the only one here who has mentioned the word "hoodlum." For
> the most part, these crimes are not committed by hardened criminals. Most
> of the kids who do this don't make a lifelong habit of it, it's just a
> phase, a few bad acts in an otherwise unoffensive life...which is why they
> get away with it.
>
> The point is, they're not going to be caught or punished. Not because
> people don't care, not because they don't deserve it, but because by the
> very nature of random, sporadic violence it is DAMNED difficult to catch
> them and bring them to justice. Most criminals aren't caught the first time
> they commit a crime, are they?
God first these kids/hoodlums are so powefull that we need to limit
other student freedoms in order not to upset them, and now they are
just good kids who do a few anti-social acts as they go through a
phase!
They know where you live statement,sure seem to be implying that they
would hunt someone down outside of school to punish them! Thatsound
like a high level hoodlum to me.
Dear my firm impression of you is that your personal is more toward
the rabbit side of the animal kingdom<grin>. Both the rabbit and the
lion in the end, will face a similar ending, but to me the lion have a
more enjoyable life and a more free life then the rabbit.
I feel sorry for you or anyone else that try to avoid all risks and
danger by hiding their abilities and blending in with the herd.
Bill Meredith
Seveigny
> "Bill Meredith" <nos...@juno.com> wrote in message
> > You know that this thread where people claim that there is no way of
> > enforcing peace and good order in our school systems and that we are
> > all at the whim of very young hoodlums remind me of the Y2K debate,
> > where people claimed that our whole civilation was at risk of
> > collapse.
>
> I think you're the only one here who has mentioned the word "hoodlum."
For
> the most part, these crimes are not committed by hardened criminals. Most
> of the kids who do this don't make a lifelong habit of it, it's just a
> phase, a few bad acts in an otherwise unoffensive life...which is why they
> get away with it.
Teri, I've let you handle this particular poster because I think you're more
qualified than I am to respond to his "position". However, I want to chime
in and respond to the use of the word "hoodlum" It's an interesting word
choice, since it infers a generational understanding. I'm 50 years old and
"hoodlum" is not in my lexicon. He is the only one who used the word. I
looked it up at dictionary.com and found the following definitions
A gangster; a thug.
A tough, often aggressive or violent youth.
Characterizing bullying as acts of a gangster, a thug, or an agressive or
violent youth is inaccurate, to say the least. "We" are not at the whim of
"very young hoodlums". We do all that we can, within the confines of our
mandate, to control bullies. Comparing bullies to the mania that surrounded
Y2K is inane, to say the least.
> The point is, they're not going to be caught or punished. Not because
> people don't care, not because they don't deserve it, but because by the
> very nature of random, sporadic violence it is DAMNED difficult to catch
> them and bring them to justice. Most criminals aren't caught the first
time
> they commit a crime, are they?
Indeed. We care, we know they deserve punishment but catching bullies in
the process of committing their crimes is diffcult. Most criminals aren't
caught the first time they commit a crime. According to my friends in law
enforcement, most criminals have committed at least three crimes before they
are caught. Even after their caught, many are sentenced to probation rather
than jail time. The man who is accused of kidnapping and killing the girl
in Florida has a string of arrests, but has spent very little time in jail.
Cate
--
"Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
Benjamin Franklin
mst
> other student freedoms in order not to upset them, and now they are
> just good kids who do a few anti-social acts as they go through a
> phase!
I didn't say they were "good" kids, just nondescript. If they stood out,
they'd be caught. Everyday, "normal" people are capable of tremendous
violence and cruelty, you know.
> They know where you live statement,sure seem to be implying that they
> would hunt someone down outside of school to punish them! Thatsound
> like a high level hoodlum to me.
They'd be very capable of throwing some rocks, of TPing or egging a house,
stuffing dogshit in the mailbox. None of those things are "high level
hoodlum," just meanspirited and thoughtless, but VERY VERY damaging. To me,
"high level hoodlum" would be breaking and entering, assault, grand theft
auto. Maybe you would disagree.
> Dear my firm impression of you is that your personal is more toward
> the rabbit side of the animal kingdom<grin>. Both the rabbit and the
> lion in the end, will face a similar ending, but to me the lion have a
> more enjoyable life and a more free life then the rabbit.
I like rabbits. They're very resourceful and prolific animals. You will
find them on every continent on earth, except Antartica. They make great
pets, and have unique, distinct personalities. Some can be bold and
aggressive, others are sweet and docile. You're stereotyping again.
Ever read Watership Down?
> I feel sorry for you or anyone else that try to avoid all risks and
> danger by hiding their abilities and blending in with the herd.
Who said anything about HIDING abilities? I just said that a person's
ethnicity is not relevant to their accomplishments.
I feel sorry for people who don't read carefully, and whose writing skills
are sub-par.
Bob LeChevalier
>> They know where you live statement,sure seem to be implying that they
>> would hunt someone down outside of school to punish them! Thatsound
>> like a high level hoodlum to me.
>
>They'd be very capable of throwing some rocks, of TPing or egging a house,
>stuffing dogshit in the mailbox. None of those things are "high level
>hoodlum," just meanspirited and thoughtless, but VERY VERY damaging. To me,
>"high level hoodlum" would be breaking and entering, assault, grand theft
>auto. Maybe you would disagree.
I suspect that he thinks that any kid that knowingly breaks any law is
a "high level hoodlum", whereas if they merely break school rules,
they are a "low level hoodlum". He wants every kid to act like
Shirley Temple.
Bill Meredith
Well well someone who would go to someone home and harm them or thier
property is not a "violent youth"?
I just turn 55 and the term hoodlum was not in common use, even in my
childerhood, but it still a good term, understood by most people.
Hell it was one of the favorite terms used by Mr. Hoover and the FBI
even used the term when gooding after crimelords as they set up a
department/section to deal with the problem. Off hand I forgot the
name of the department/section head hoodlums or chief hoodlums or
somesuch was in it title however.
We seem to lost the will to used non-pc terms that will cover a
sitution truefully for some reason. IE a bum is now a homeless
person, a swamp is now a wetland and on and on.
Bill Meredith
mst
> a "high level hoodlum", whereas if they merely break school rules,
> they are a "low level hoodlum". He wants every kid to act like
> Shirley Temple.
You mean, he wants them to tap dance?
That's not gonna happen.