Computer course requirement
Dave
I am a High School Computer Teacher. I am trying to convince the
administration of the need for a computer course requirement. Currently,
less than 20% of our students take a computer elective. The result: most of
our students don't even know how to use a spreadsheet, word processor, etc.
Does anybody have any links to websites that support my argument. Do any
states require computer courses. Any sights that give statistics on colleges
that require a computer understanding. I would greatly appreciate your help.
Dave
Dave <cats...@bellatlantic.net> wrote in message
news:Bp%s4.142$A93....@typhoon1.gnilink.net...
Jbkdg
I do not think our state requires it, but our school district makes kids take
one semester in middle school and one semester in high school for graduation
requirement. You may get support from universities, where one must be pc
literate to be successful. Try Ohio University, which put a computer into each
freshman dorm room this fall and into each sophomore room next fall-to be
upgraded every two years. Or try some of the college websites, such as
versity.com for support
jbkdg
Kim Flintoff
insist that teachers in all Key Learning Areas provide opportunities and
requirements for students to engage with computers - those students that
have a specific interest in learning more about computers/IT can take
specialist classes...
the basic premise is that you get kids to utilise the machines in
context...
I did teach a computer skills course - but linked it to other learning
areas - students were learning computers incidently to completing other
tasks.... it works well...
Cheerio
Kim
Dave wrote:
>
> Hello everybody,
> I am a High School Computer Teacher. I am trying to convince the
> administration of the need for a computer course requirement. Currently,
> less than 20% of our students take a computer elective. The result: most of
> our students don't even know how to use a spreadsheet, word processor, etc.
> Does anybody have any links to websites that support my argument. Do any
> states require computer courses. Any sights that give statistics on colleges
> that require a computer understanding. I would greatly appreciate your help.
--
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| Kim Flintoff - Perth, Australia |
| mailto:ki...@networx.net.au |
Fax/Voicemail: +61 (08) 9264 8869
Alternate Fax: 1 66 1 791 4301
Saliva causes cancer, but only if swallowed in small
amounts over a long period of time.
-- George Carlin
Seveigny53
>I have argued strongly against such a course - instead preferring to
>insist that teachers in all Key Learning Areas provide opportunities and
>requirements for students to engage with computers - those students that
>have a specific interest in learning more about computers/IT can take
>specialist classes...
>
>the basic premise is that you get kids to utilise the machines in
>context...
>
>I did teach a computer skills course - but linked it to other learning
>areas - students were learning computers incidently to completing other
>tasks.... it works well...
>
>Cheerio
I disagree. As a high school teacher, I need my students to complete a basic
course before they get to my class. I use technology in my classes. I need my
students to have basic keyboarding and Internet skills before they get into my
class. I provide instruction on how to search and how to evaluate web sites in
my 9th grade classes. By the time I teach 10th graders, I want them to have
these basic technological skills so they can go on to learn how to use
Powerpoint and Hyperstudio to create presentations.
Cate
M. Kilgore
word processor or a spreadsheet? Those are pitiful goals.
mark
"Dave" <cats...@bellatlantic.net> wrote in message
news:Bp%s4.142$A93....@typhoon1.gnilink.net...
Kim Flintoff
of names... have yet to find opportunities where they will make my life
simpler for other tasks...
Word processors and publishers I find very handy... and 3D animation
software - it all depends on what you need to do - hence my argument
against global "general" computer classes... learn applications in
context.
CHeerio
Kim
--
M. Kilgore
educational systems required students to learn how to use a typewriter in
the good old days? None that I can recall. There was a good reason for not
requiring every student to know how to type - a majority of jobs did not
require any typing skills at all. Nothing has really changed much with the
advent of the cheap computer.
Certainly there is a good chance that workers will encounter computers in
their day-to-day work, but how many of them will be using computers to word
process, make a presentation, design a nifty graphic, massage a database, or
use a spreadsheet for whatever purpose? I think not many, for even though
computers will be everywhere, the useful computers don't require much in the
way of computer expertise to be well used. It's far more important to know
how to write a good paragraph than it is to know how to use a word
processor. It's far more important to know what makes a good presentation
than it is to know how to create one with PowerPoint. It's far more
important to understand the numbers you're plugging into a spreadsheet than
it is to know how to use Excel. In short, it's the underlying knowledge
that's important - not the medium used to express the knowledge. Good
computer systems are virtually transparent to the user and do not require
the user to have much in the way of "computer literacy" other than knowing
how to turn the thing on and push a mouse about.
Personally, I don't really think we have too much of a problem. Children are
becoming more and more computer literate before they even enter the school
system. Indeed, many teachers find that their students know more about
putting a computer through its paces than the teachers do. This is as it
should be - in the end, computers will be no more important than a decent
pencil. I suspect, however, that I'm preaching to the choir.
mark
"Kim Flintoff" <ki...@networx.net.au> wrote in message
news:38B4F44D...@networx.net.au...
Martin Rowley
(Basic Computer Information Systems - 1 year course) we have like 8-10
teachers that teach this in about 6-7 computer labs (20+ machines per
class). The students learn Desktop publishing (Pagemaker), word
processing (Word), spreadsheet (Excel), database (Access), presentation
(Powerpoint), typing, proofreading, document creation, and probable a
whole lot more than I'm listing here. This is all geared to giving them
skills that will aid in their hs course work (we highly suggest that
students take this as ninth graders), and later as college students. But
it also helps the students that are going straight from hs to work. We
are entering (or have entered) the "Information Age". Knowing how to use
the available technology is going to give all these students an edge
that the students from schools that don't teach these course will not
have.
Case in point of "why should (all) students need to know how to use a
word processor or a spreadsheet?"
One of my first year drafting students is a senior who has gone through
the entire Automotive Technology course and he plans on going to a
technical college and later enter a career in the automotive industry as
at least a mechanic or something similar (for starters). Not your likely
candidate to need to know how to do all the things taught in BSIC. But
then again he is. He is currently working on a project for VICA
(Vocational industrial Clubs of America) and he has spent the last
couple of days using a spreadsheet to analyze the data from his project
and to organize it into a presentable form. He is also using the
wordproccessor to write up his report on the project. He's using the CAD
that he has learned in my class to draw illustrations to be used in his
Powerpoint presentation slides that he is creating along with the
pictures he has taken and imported from one of the school's digital
cameras. All in all he is creating a really professional package
detailing his project.
A person with these kinds of skills will do very well in college and
also in their careers later.
Martin
Martin Rowley
It's too early in the AM, and I didn't proofread it before I sent it.
Sorry....
Martin
Martin Rowley
and those that learn in a classroom following a set curriculum. We get
many transfer students that come in from other districts where they were
expected to pick up their computer skills on their own and on their own
time, usually using their own computers. Many of these students "think"
that they have decent computer skills, until they are place in a class
with students who have gone through our computer skills class. Then it
is very easy to see just how "spotty" that self learned knowledge is
compared to that of the other students.
A few years back, one of the local teachers made a comment in the local
paper that "We need to teach the students basic computer skills, like
Powerpoint, in high school to better prepare them for the future". This
was after he just presented to some function using a faulty Powerpoint
presentation that he clobbered together using his own self taught
skills. When he got back school the next day, he had several BCIS
teachers "explain" to him that we "do" teach this to the students
already. He still gets dirty looks whenever he passes the computer labs.
I also see a lot of this with my computer repair classes. I get transfer
students that "think" they know how computer works and have "snowed"
many a councilor / teacher into thinking they knew what they were
talking about. But when it came time to do it in class with a instructor
that knows the subject, its very different story. Last week I lost a
couple of motherboards due to damage by a transfer student that was
self-taught and claims to have worked at a computer repair store. He
pried several of the microprocessors off their motherboards using a
screwdriver instead of the correct tool. Plus he failed to release the
holding clamps before doing this. One board I could understand, but not
two. Both the motherboards and the microprocessors were damage to the
point of making them useless. His only response was "I've always done it
that way, I didn't know there was a tool for doing that." He was not
following instuction at the time and was off "exploring" on his own,
which is another problem I see a lot with "self-taught" students.
Martin
> > "M. Kilgore" wrote:
> > >
> > > Just out of curiosity, Dave, why should students need to know how to use
> a
> > > word processor or a spreadsheet? Those are pitiful goals.
> > >
> > > mark
> > >
> > > "Dave" <cats...@bellatlantic.net> wrote in message
> > > news:Bp%s4.142$A93....@typhoon1.gnilink.net...
> > > > Hello everybody,
> > > > I am a High School Computer Teacher. I am trying to convince the
> > > > administration of the need for a computer course requirement.
> Currently,
> > > > less than 20% of our students take a computer elective. The result:
> most
> > > of
> > > > our students don't even know how to use a spreadsheet, word processor,
> > > etc.
> > > > Does anybody have any links to websites that support my argument. Do
> any
> > > > states require computer courses. Any sights that give statistics on
> > > colleges
> > > > that require a computer understanding. I would greatly appreciate your
> > > help.
> > > >
> > > >
> >
M. Kilgore
those following a set curriculum. There can also be some argument as to
which has the better view of technology, too. The thing about this
technology business is that if the technology is used by most of society,
then the technology, much like pencils and typewriters, will become
transparent to the users. Any literacy training we might require at the
moment is primarily due to the fact that we're in a transition period
between our computer technology being something special and it just being
some more of the same old stuff. (I edited that last statement - as one that
has been heavily involved with computers for 3+decades, my first inclination
was to say "old crap" instead of "old stuff.")
My own children (youngest 14,) started using computers just as soon as they
could toddle over to my desk, pull themselves up, and stick a cookie in the
floppy drive. Admittedly, many children aren't allowed to start that young
since many parents are still impressed too much with computers, but the
"need" for parents to protect their computers from their children will
eventually disappear much as the parental "need" to protect the TV from
their children has disappeared over the years. This is as it should be -
useful technology becomes transparent as it approaches becoming universally
used.
I suppose God created zif sockets for a reason. It's just as unreasonable to
expect that just anyone is qualified to work on multi-layered motherboards
just because they know how to operate a computer as it is to assume that
everyone is qualified to work on a car's brake system just because they know
how to drive a car. I have, in the way of counterpoint, a story to offer,
too. Back in the mid-70s, I was working for a company that used
microprocessors to implement control systems. Our chief hardware guy, a
fully qualified EE, took a prototype board, plugged it in to an open frame
power supply, and promptly fried the board. Why? Glad you asked. Our
workbenches were covered in stainless steel - it's not, er, good form, to
put a motherboard on bare metal and apply power to it. We didn't hold it
against him - everyone screws up now and then.
I can't help but wonder what you teach about Powerpoint. The skills that are
required to make a good presentation have been required long before the
advent of presentation authoring systems. Take those skills out of the mix
and all you're left with is navigating the menus. BTW, I do hope that you
teach as a minimum that people are generally getting tired of the same old
clip art. :-) But do you teach the other stuff, you know, like your text
needs to be of a minimum size to be seen by your audience in a particular
hall. Or perhaps the idea that the purpose of any presentation, regardless
of the medium used to realize it, is to convey information and not to wow
your audience with your extensive font, sound, and clip-art collections?
Just as importantly, how many jobs do you honestly feel will require the
employee to make a presentation? In my mind, not very many simply because in
the scheme of things, the skill of the person delivering the presentation is
valued more than the mechanics of making the presentation. In other words, a
good presenter is valuable even if you have to hire someone to translate his
presentation to whatever medium is chosen.
mark
"Martin Rowley" <kmro...@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:38B52991...@swbell.net...
M. Kilgore
any other software application guarantees our children's success. We are
basing that knowledge on the faulty assumption that everyone will be
required to "do everything" in future. That's just not true - editors will
still be editors, writers will still be writers, publishers will still be
publishers, graphic artists will still be graphic artists, drafts people
will still be drafts people and great lovers will still be great lovers.
Interesting case in point. One of my most hated courses in college was
drafting. I just don't have much patience for that sort of fine detail work,
even with a cad system. I don't regret taking the course, however, even
though I knew at the time I would never make a living drafting, because I
got something worth more than drawing skills out of the course - I learned
what I needed to know to diagram something well enough on a bar napkin so
that a real draftsman could do something with it. Without taking the time to
learn a bit about drafting, my bar napkin diagrams would just be bar napkin
scribbles. The point is that when I need some drafting, I count on a
draftman to do it - I don't have the time or the inclination to stay current
in drafting.
Just out of curiosity - as his content teacher, do you grade him on his
content or do you grade him on how professional his output looks? In other
words, would you grade him less if he presented his work in a more
traditional way?
mark
"Martin Rowley" <kmro...@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:38B52206...@swbell.net...
> "M. Kilgore" wrote:
> >
> > Just out of curiosity, Dave, why should students need to know how to use
a
Martin Rowley
Martin
"M. Kilgore" wrote:
>
> There can be a vast difference between those that learn on their own and
> those following a set curriculum. There can also be some argument as to
> which has the better view of technology, too. The thing about this
> technology business is that if the technology is used by most of society,
> then the technology, much like pencils and typewriters, will become
> transparent to the users. Any literacy training we might require at the
> moment is primarily due to the fact that we're in a transition period
> between our computer technology being something special and it just being
> some more of the same old stuff. (I edited that last statement - as one that
> has been heavily involved with computers for 3+decades, my first inclination
> was to say "old crap" instead of "old stuff.")
>
> My own children (youngest 14,) started using computers just as soon as they
> could toddle over to my desk, pull themselves up, and stick a cookie in the
> floppy drive. Admittedly, many children aren't allowed to start that young
> since many parents are still impressed too much with computers, but the
> "need" for parents to protect their computers from their children will
> eventually disappear much as the parental "need" to protect the TV from
> their children has disappeared over the years. This is as it should be -
> useful technology becomes transparent as it approaches becoming universally
> used.
I myself am a self-confessed "self learner". If there is any new area
that I'm interested in or required to have knowledge of, I jump in with
both feet and try to learn just about everything I can about it. I have
over the space of 20-30 years honed my study skills to the point where I
can reasonable educate myself. I also have gained the insight to know
"when" I don't understand something fully and I can admit this to myself
and more importantly to others. Many of today's kids have grown up
playing with computers, but most of their "self-taught" knowledge /
skill is very shallow. I get many students who's parents gush about how
"computer smart" their kids are and I later find out that they don't
what even the basic knowledge required to format a floppy disk
correctly. Computers are approaching a familiarity similar to that of a
television set or telephone. But many of the programs do require
specialized knowledge of the software to able to produce quality
results. I teach computer-aided drafting and it is a subject that
requires both a solid knowledge of "drafting" and a detailed
understanding of the CAD program itself. Either without the other is
just half of what is needed today to be a good draftsperson. When ever
I'm asked "Why do we need to teach drafting? Why can't we just teach
AutoCAD by itself?", I usually respond that doing that would be like
teaching someone how to use a word processor and expecting them to be
able to write a novel. But the reverse is true also, just because
someone can write a novel, we should not expect them to be able to use a
word processor.
> I suppose God created zif sockets for a reason. It's just as unreasonable to
> expect that just anyone is qualified to work on multi-layered motherboards
> just because they know how to operate a computer as it is to assume that
> everyone is qualified to work on a car's brake system just because they know
> how to drive a car. I have, in the way of counterpoint, a story to offer,
> too. Back in the mid-70s, I was working for a company that used
> microprocessors to implement control systems. Our chief hardware guy, a
> fully qualified EE, took a prototype board, plugged it in to an open frame
> power supply, and promptly fried the board. Why? Glad you asked. Our
> workbenches were covered in stainless steel - it's not, er, good form, to
> put a motherboard on bare metal and apply power to it. We didn't hold it
> against him - everyone screws up now and then.
I agree with not holding it against them, to a point. If he didn't
"learn" from the first mistake and then repeated the mistake again right
after the first, then there is a problem. In the case with my student, I
pulled him aside after class for a talk. I told him that I was not mad
or angry about what he had done, but I was concerned about being able to
trust him with other equipment in the future. I explained that the
equipment damaged represented a large chunk of my resources for the
class. I then discussed with him "why" this happened. (being off task,
doing unauthorized "experimenting", mis-use of tools, and for going too
fast and not thinking about what he was doing). He admitted to messing
up and promised to try to do better in the future.
I did handle this situation differently than I would have with any of
the other students that have been in the class since the first of the
year. This student missed the whole first semester of the class and most
of the last six-week. His skill level is still a bit of an unknown to
me, I'm still trying to get a handle on exactly what I need to go over
with him to get his level up with that of the rest of the class.
> I can't help but wonder what you teach about Powerpoint. The skills that are
> required to make a good presentation have been required long before the
> advent of presentation authoring systems.
What skills are you talking about and where did they learn them.
> Take those skills out of the mix
> and all you're left with is navigating the menus. BTW, I do hope that you
> teach as a minimum that people are generally getting tired of the same old
> clip art. :-) But do you teach the other stuff, you know, like your text
> needs to be of a minimum size to be seen by your audience in a particular
> hall. Or perhaps the idea that the purpose of any presentation, regardless
> of the medium used to realize it, is to convey information and not to wow
> your audience with your extensive font, sound, and clip-art collections?
> Just as importantly, how many jobs do you honestly feel will require the
> employee to make a presentation? In my mind, not very many simply because in
> the scheme of things, the skill of the person delivering the presentation is
> valued more than the mechanics of making the presentation. In other words, a
> good presenter is valuable even if you have to hire someone to translate his
> presentation to whatever medium is chosen.
I personally don't teach the BCIS (Basic Computer Information Systems)
but I do work closely with many of the teachers that do. These classes
are described in our course selection guide as: "Students apply
technical skills to address business applications. Emphasis is placed on
hardware, software, word processing, spreadsheet, database, desktop
publishing, Internet, operating systems, and presentation management."
As for what they teach when they do PP presentations, I do know that the
students create a presentation and present it to the class. There is an
emphasis placed on good graphics skills like correct font usage,
readability, flow of presentation, color selection, and lots of other
elements that go into a good presentation.
Why do they need to learn this as not all jobs require this knowledge /
skill? Most of the students today have little or no clue as to what they
are going to be later in life. It's almost like asking "Why learn
algebra or trig.?" as many jobs don't require that. If we knew exactly
what each student's future career was going to be we could plan their
class schedule so that they take only the classes they need. Many of
these students also participate in youth organization BPA (Business
Professionals of America) where they use many of the skills that they
learn in BCIS. Being able to create a presentation (or anything else for
that matter) gives a person the insight into what goes into the whole
process. Sure someone could just hire another person to create it for
them (this would certainly create jobs for people who did know how to do
this). The best way that I can think to illustrate a reason "why" is:
think back to the days around 1965-1975, in the days "before" computers.
If you were required to create something like a letter, or write a
report, etc. you had to manually type it using a typewriter. Many people
typed but not very good. I know of quite a few people who made money on
the side typing college papers for college students, letters for people
and such. In most of the business world there were whole departments of
typists employed to do just this. Now days these departments are pretty
much history. Most people today are expected to do many of their own
correspondence using their computer / wordprocessors. I know the company
that I worked for before becoming a teacher had about eight typists when
I started in 1989, but by the time I left in 1996 they were down to one.
And that one was used exclusively for one person who refused to even
touch a computer. Our world is changing like this faster and faster.
Jobs that are around today are not necessary going to be around
tomorrow.
Bottom line, we (our district / community) believe that classes like
this provides skills that will help our students do better both in
college if they go and in whatever career that their lives take then to
in the future.
< snippage of previous posts >
Martin Rowley
Martin
"M. Kilgore" wrote:
>
> We have too much faith in our knowledge that knowing how to use MS Office or
> any other software application guarantees our children's success. We are
> basing that knowledge on the faulty assumption that everyone will be
> required to "do everything" in future. That's just not true - editors will
> still be editors, writers will still be writers, publishers will still be
> publishers, graphic artists will still be graphic artists, drafts people
> will still be drafts people and great lovers will still be great lovers.
If I email you my class rolls for this year could you please indicate to
me what each of my students careers (plural intended) will be after
graduation? (sarcasm) Yes "editors will still be editors, writers will
still be writers, publishers will still be publishers, graphic artists
will still be graphic artists, drafts people will still be drafts
people and great lovers will still be great lovers." but until they
"are" such and can say they don't need this skill or that, it's still a
good ideal to teach skills that people "might or might not" need later
in life.
> Interesting case in point. One of my most hated courses in college was
> drafting. I just don't have much patience for that sort of fine detail work,
> even with a cad system. I don't regret taking the course, however, even
> though I knew at the time I would never make a living drafting, because I
> got something worth more than drawing skills out of the course - I learned
> what I needed to know to diagram something well enough on a bar napkin so
> that a real draftsman could do something with it. Without taking the time to
> learn a bit about drafting, my bar napkin diagrams would just be bar napkin
> scribbles. The point is that when I need some drafting, I count on a
> draftman to do it - I don't have the time or the inclination to stay current
> in drafting.
Did you go into the course with this "hatred" or did you develop it
while taking the course. Was it based on the course itself, the
instructor, or just the subject itself? You at least learned from the
experience that you definitely did not want to be a drafter, which I my
opinion is a valuable lesson in itself.
You make the point that "If you need dome drafting, you will count on a
draftsman to do it." which is a good point - however, having had a
drafter draw up something for you (say a set of house plans) do you
think your experience in the drafting class might enable you to "read"
and understand those plans better than someone who didn't take the
class? I have many people who look at some of the material that we
create in my drafting class and comment "How do you make heads or tails
out of this stuff?". Having knowledge of a subject, even if you do not
actively pursue employment with that knowledge is still beneficial in my
opinion.
> Just out of curiosity - as his content teacher, do you grade him on his
> content or do you grade him on how professional his output looks? In other
> words, would you grade him less if he presented his work in a more
> traditional way?
I tend to grade on "quality" over "quantity". Our drafting program is
taught over a period of three years. The first class is a basic
introductory class where students are taught the "basics" of mechanical
drafting and CAD. Many students tend to make their decision whether or
not to continue on with the drafting program from their experinces in
this class.
If they advance to the next two levels (which are my classes) I begin to
teach them more advance material and techniques. We go into more depth
with both drafting and the CAD software. This class is mostly learning
the technical aspects of the discipline. I expect the students to make
errors and mistakes in their work and take this in stride and work at
reinforcing their knowledge to help them reduce the number / frequency
of these mistakes. I place a higher emphasis on doing a assignment
correctly, rather than "finishing" an assignment incorrectly.
During the third and final year, the students get to explore areas of
their own choice. This is when they work on individual design projects
of their own creation. This allows them to develop experience / skill
using the technical knowledge that they learned in the two lower
classes. They are also instructed in the use of more advance software
like 3D rendering software packages. I place a higher emphasis on doing
a "finished" and "correct" assignment in this class than I do the other
two classes. Many of the students that finish all three years are headed
toward college with the intention of going into careers in engineering
or architecture.
> mark
>
> "Martin Rowley" <kmro...@swbell.net> wrote in message
> > > Just out of curiosity, Dave, why should students need to know how to use
> a
M. Kilgore
a slight tremor that makes accurate drawing, er, bothersome. ( (You ought to
see me with a sliderule.) Sometimes, I think that I'd have a difficult time
drawing two parallels even with the benefit of a drafting machine. I do OK
with sketching, though. I don't regret taking drafting - as I say, even
though my drawing abilities weren't so hot, I felt at the time, and still
do, that the more important thing that
I got from the course is the knowlege that made it easier to communicate
with the guys that do the drafting. It is nice to be able to produce my
rough sketches in a form that doesn't require too much effort for the
draftsman to figure out what I'm really after. BTW, a much more enjoyable
course that I took for similar reasons was a manufacturing lab course. My
tremor didn't bother me much there, since I had the lead screws to help
establish and maintain accuracy. I learned a lot in that class ranging from
how you really need to be able to trust that guy with the ladle of molten
aluminum when you're working in the foundry to what a really good screw is.
Be as sarcastic as you care to be. Being able to use Office isn't going to
make up for a lack of knowlege in the area of interest, unless you're
purposely setting out to be an Office expert. I would, considering how often
office suites change, recommend against tying oneself to any particular
package. Let's take word processors, for example - the first word processors
I used in the 70s weren't much. The first decent one I used was the old
Wordstar. As I recall, Word Perfect, supplanted Wordstar. Then came Ami Pro
and Word to give us the word processor that we now know. In the time that it
took for all this to happen, I was word processing the whole time (believe
it or not, I like technology,) but the important thing all along has been
the words I process, not the word processor I use. I can't tell you what
your students will be doing between now and the grave, but I'm confident
that a majority of them won't depend on knowing how to word process, spread
the sheets, lay out a brochure, or diddle a database for their livelyhood. I
am also fairly confident that the office apps you're teaching them now have
a rather short life and won't bear much resemblence to the apps those
students will be using in future. (Wish it wasn't so, but such seems to be
the beast of software marketing.) I can also tell you straight out that
Access isn't anywhere close to a standard in database software.
I envy your shop position. I hope that you have the funding to have at least
some of the stuff they advertise in Ties. Unlike the general student
population we've been talking about, it does make sense for you to be
teaching CAD (and CAM if you've the money.) If they'd had that sort of stuff
when I was in HS then I'm pretty sure I would have been sucked in to
Industrial Arts in the 60's. BTW, Ken Maskell has an interesting comment on
computer literacy in the current issue of Ties. I don't agree with
everything he says, but it's an interesting read, nonetheless.
You also have another benefit with your course specific use of CAD that the
general computer literacy teacher doesn't have. You're using the app as an
adjunct to your particular field of expertise. Computer literacy teachers
don't have that luxury of teaching the underlying knowlege that students are
using the computer to express. Computer literacy instruction is, of
necessity, too often limited to just teaching how to use the app and not
much more. There's not much of a way around that problem.
mark
"Martin Rowley" <kmro...@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:38B5CF63...@swbell.net...
Martin Rowley
Martin
I would agree that the "life span" of a typical software is very short.
But although we do utilize many Microsoft and Adobe packages in our BCIS
course the aim is not to make them "Office experts" but to give them a
basic understanding of the concepts of "how" to use a word processor, a
spreadsheet, a datebase, a desktop publishing package (and yes, they do
learn to create a brochure as one of their assignments), and several
other basic functions of software usage. This is a "basic" class aimed
at giving the students skills that they can use to write a report for
english, search the web for information about W.W.II, manipulate a
graphics to fit on a page, analyze data from a chem class and print out
the results. None of the software packages are taught to the degree
needed to pass any Microsoft certification program. It is our intention
to provide each and every student with the same basic skills needed to
do well, regardless of what their home situation is - not everyone has a
computer at home for their kids to learn on or the variety of software.
Many of the "wealthier" families children tend to have an technology
advantage that many of the "not-so-wealthy" families can not compete
with.
We have many advance classes that any student can go on to after taking
BCIS. My drafting class is such a class. There is a requirement that
students taking any of the drafting classes to first have taken BCIS.
This is also true for the Web Mastery class, Digital Animation class,
Office (not the software) Support class, BCIS II class, Business Image
and Multimedia class to name a few. Even the Ag classes require BCIS as
a prerequisite.
We have nearly six computer labs set up for teaching BCIS (along with
many of these other computer technology classes) and at least 9 teachers
that teach it. We are considering adding more. This is a very popular
class with just about everyone, the community, the parents, the
students, the school board, the administration, and the teachers (many
of the BCIS teachers give after school workshops for the regular
academic teachers to help bring their computer skills up to speed, these
are usually pack as many of the teachers now have bright and shiny
computers in their classrooms and the administration just got us a
gradebook program they want us to use). Many of the students that I get
from other districts have very poor computer skills, just about every
one of them needs to be instructed in how to save a file, how to delete
a file, how to create a directory, the difference between saving a file
to the classroom hard drive and saving a file to their network
directory. Having students that enter my classes with these basic skills
already in place saves a lot of time and effort. I would compare it to a
history teacher not wanting to be required to teach a student to "read"
before teaching him history.
> I envy your shop position. I hope that you have the funding to have at least
> some of the stuff they advertise in Ties. Unlike the general student
> population we've been talking about, it does make sense for you to be
> teaching CAD (and CAM if you've the money.) If they'd had that sort of stuff
> when I was in HS then I'm pretty sure I would have been sucked in to
> Industrial Arts in the 60's. BTW, Ken Maskell has an interesting comment on
> computer literacy in the current issue of Ties. I don't agree with
> everything he says, but it's an interesting read, nonetheless.
The funding for my class is a question that I don't really look forward
to each year lately. When I first started teaching this course here I
had a fairly full class of students, lately over the past four years
this number has dropped. One of the main reasons is that we started a
digital animation course which doesn't require any math and is
considered by most of the students as a "fun" class. I just got the go
ahead to upgrade the software in my lab, which now gives my department
the capability of teaching _everything_ Autodesk (makers of AutoCAD)
has. But now I need to bring up the number of students enrolling in my
courses to fully justify this upgrade. The parents really like my
classes, but convincing students to put forth the effort to learn a
subject that requires the level of commitment that drafting does is a
hard thing to do now days.
> You also have another benefit with your course specific use of CAD that the
> general computer literacy teacher doesn't have. You're using the app as an
> adjunct to your particular field of expertise. Computer literacy teachers
> don't have that luxury of teaching the underlying knowlege that students are
> using the computer to express. Computer literacy instruction is, of
> necessity, too often limited to just teaching how to use the app and not
> much more. There's not much of a way around that problem.
Many of our BCIS teachers are from industry and have some degree of
business knowledge.
> mark
>
<snipage of previous posting to cut down on file size.>
Magi D. Shepley
expect the students to have access to technology or for it to be encouraged in
their homes. Its not okay when you don't have it available for the kids in the
school or in the community... then you MUST teach them specific methods or they
will falter and fail in the community.
Magi
Kim Flintoff wrote:
> The only time I use a spreadsheet is when I want to alphabetise a list
> of names... have yet to find opportunities where they will make my life
> simpler for other tasks...
>
> Word processors and publishers I find very handy... and 3D animation
> software - it all depends on what you need to do - hence my argument
> against global "general" computer classes... learn applications in
> context.
>
> CHeerio
>
> Kim
>
> "M. Kilgore" wrote:
> >
> > Just out of curiosity, Dave, why should students need to know how to use a
> > word processor or a spreadsheet? Those are pitiful goals.
> >
> > mark
> >
Ex-Teacher
>course before they get to my class. I use technology in my classes. I need my
>students to have basic keyboarding and Internet skills before they get into my
>class. I provide instruction on how to search and how to evaluate web sites in
>my 9th grade classes. By the time I teach 10th graders, I want them to have
>these basic technological skills so they can go on to learn how to use
>Powerpoint and Hyperstudio to create presentations.
I agree that this is what you need, but I disagree with the suggestion
that a "basic course" provides this. In my experience, the majority
of the students leave such a course with little more than what they
knew going in.
A work-through-the-exercise-book course is great for adults who know
they will be using the features demonstrated, but it doesn't seem to
work very well for kids unless they are highly motivated or interested
in the program taught.
I have found that one way to make technology do-able is to template
things. I see no reason why every student should spend time choosing
background colors or fonts. I also don't see why every kid needs to
spend an hour searching on Yahoo for something when you could give
them a URL or (perish the thought) a BOOK.
J. Z. Al-Huriyeh
========================
Public education cannot
succeed where parents
and culture fail.
===========================
Sarah Wethered
to graduate -- in my school that is either accounting or computer studies.
Sarah
M. Kilgore
science fair. One of the projects was a neat looking one entitled "How
Computers Work." Even though the project looked really neat, I gave it a
very low score. It turns out that the boy didn't know the first thing about
computers - his project came about because Daddy didn't have the heart to
toss his old motherboards after his past two upgrades (Much to my wife's
chagrin, I don't toss my old computers, either. I've got an attic full of
them.) My low scoring surprised the boy's teachers, though - they didn't
know enough about computers to know the boy knew even less than they did. I
worry about this sort of thing quite a bit. There is a tremendous built in
BS factor when it comes to computers that makes it too easy to impress other
people. There seems to be the attitude that if it looks good, it must be
good. We need to take care that we don't foster that attitude. In my local
system, our bigger problem has been educating the teachers enough that they
won't be quite so imtimidated by or impressed with computers and their
resulting output. We've even have a perverse little twist enter the picture
as a result of the national news coverage of students being able to buy
prewritten and formated term papers - now if a student's output looks too
good he's likely to be accused of plagerism. (This happened to my daughter
last month - her teacher asked her to please not mention some things to
Daddy.:-) )
Frying the prototype board wasn't much of a problem. We exercised a little
management perogative and brought in a few of the guys to make a new
prototype overnight. Not exactly the cheapest way out, but we were able to
maintain our schedule. The solution to the real problem, though, came later.
I was able to lead the chief engineer to the realization that we could more
reliably test prototypes via software that exercised the hardware. Once he
reached the realization, he agreed wholeheartly and prototypes were always
stuck into a monitored test bed for their preproduction testing.The chief
engineer liked it because instead of him having to prove to us that his
boards worked, we had to prove that they didn't. (Not so hard to do, BTW.)
Sometimes things just don't work out, though. In the late 80s, I designed
the software system for a ship loading facility in the middle east. It was a
true multi-national effort, complete with a European Engineering group in
charge of the overall project, a Korean company responsible for the piping
and physical facilities, and our little company responsible for controling
the process. I worked from a detailed spec that was supplied by the
Europeans. I took care to make certain that my software wouldn't
inadvertantly kill anyone. It was great. I was able to knock out the system
in about 30 man years and passed the acceptance test with flying colors. We
broke the system down and packed it in a few containers so we could ship it
to the site. Several problems were discovered while the system was being
installed, though. The first problem was that the company in charge of
supplying the pumping end of the project substituted pumps that were much
less powerful than specified. Not much of a problem for me, I just had to
modify a few constants. The other problem, though, kinda ties in with
drafting - the company that was responsible for constructing the facility
had installed the loading arms (that connected to the tank ships) backwards.
Sometimes you just have to rely on a good sense of humor.
In my mind, the argument that students don't know what they might need in
future works much better for math than it does for word processors. Math
remains fairly constant and doesn't change with a rising or failing market.
Software, on the other hand, changes regularly for no particularly good
reason other than an attempt to get more market share.
My own personal view of the drafting department is that it provides a
translation service for me - i.e., it translates my ideas to a form the guys
on the floor can work from. The drafting department is much more than just
pretty drawings.
I do all of my writing via computers. I suspect that I'm like others
though - when I need a paper trail, I process through the secretarial pool,
even though I might have quite a few back channel communication paths going
on at any given time.
Somewhere in all this, I seem to remember that you seemed to ask where do
you learn about presentations. (Although it's late, and I can't seem to put
my finger on the question.) At any rate, if you did ask the question, the
answer is simple - look to what presentation programs emulate. Need another
hint? Somewhere in my attic there is a box that contains some publications
from Eastman Kodak. These books cover things that the casual observer
doesn't easily see. For example - did you know that given the distance
between the fartherest person viewing a presentation and the actual
presentation, there is a formula you can use to determine the smallest type
you can reliably use on your presentation? There are also similar formulas
that allow you to determine, given the distance between the nearest viewer
and the presentation, what the maximum size of the smallest detail can be
(e.g., minimum resolution required. Not a biggie on a computer terminal
that's sitting right in front of the viewer, but something to consider if
you're displaying your presentation on a stadium video system.) These
formulas are a decent attempt to provide guide lines for those that didn't
do enough presentations to develop the knowledge through experience. And, if
you think about it, the knowlege goes back to the guys painting advertising
signs way back when, even if they didn't make the attempt to codify
guidelines for the inexperienced.
mark
"Martin Rowley" <kmro...@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:38B5C477...@swbell.net...
> Comments below.
>
> Martin
>
> "M. Kilgore" wrote:
> >
SNIP
Martin Rowley
Martin
"M. Kilgore" wrote:
>
> A few weeks ago, I allowed myself to get roped into judging a school's
> science fair. One of the projects was a neat looking one entitled "How
> Computers Work." Even though the project looked really neat, I gave it a
> very low score. It turns out that the boy didn't know the first thing about
> computers - his project came about because Daddy didn't have the heart to
> toss his old motherboards after his past two upgrades (Much to my wife's
> chagrin, I don't toss my old computers, either. I've got an attic full of
> them.) My low scoring surprised the boy's teachers, though - they didn't
> know enough about computers to know the boy knew even less than they did. I
> worry about this sort of thing quite a bit. There is a tremendous built in
> BS factor when it comes to computers that makes it too easy to impress other
> people. There seems to be the attitude that if it looks good, it must be
> good. We need to take care that we don't foster that attitude. In my local
> system, our bigger problem has been educating the teachers enough that they
> won't be quite so imtimidated by or impressed with computers and their
> resulting output. We've even have a perverse little twist enter the picture
> as a result of the national news coverage of students being able to buy
> prewritten and formated term papers - now if a student's output looks too
> good he's likely to be accused of plagerism. (This happened to my daughter
> last month - her teacher asked her to please not mention some things to
> Daddy.:-) )
My point exactly, I can not stress to the other teachers and more
importantly to the counselors to try and not "believe" that every
student that can spell "computer" knows "everything" about computers.
Many of the teachers get into trouble with the school's tech support
people for letting a student install software (and sometimes even
hardware) onto their classroom machines. Some teachers assume that
"everyone" under the age of 18 knows everything there is about running a
computer or fixing a computer. I remember one story a teacher related to
me about a student that was a bit "computer savvy", she sent him down to
her room with a new mouse to install (which only required making sure
the machine was off, and unplugging the old mouse and plugging in the
new one). After the student didn't return in about thirty minutes she
went to investigate what was keeping him. She found him sitting on the
floor of the room with her computer completely disassembled around him.
(Why? We really don't know why he did this.) He had even pulled the
chips out of their sockets off the motherboard. Needless to say she
learned her lesson and now doesn't have students work on her computer.
Nice story, but I've lost track on how this ties into "whether or not to
teach a class of basic computer / application skills to teenagers".
> In my mind, the argument that students don't know what they might need in
> future works much better for math than it does for word processors. Math
> remains fairly constant and doesn't change with a rising or failing market.
> Software, on the other hand, changes regularly for no particularly good
> reason other than an attempt to get more market share.
Granted the software changes, but the concepts and skills learned from
using "today's" software packages will greatly aid in the learning of
"tomorrow's" package. Case in point, the engineering office where I work
part-time a few nights a week is switching over to AutoCAD 2000 (release
15) and they are looking to me to set up the software and to basically
come up with the office standards for using the new software. Why me and
not one of the others? Everyone there will be starting off at the same
point with the new software as this will be all of ours first encounter
with the new software. It's because I've have the most experience with
dealing with Autodesk's products. I've worked on some form of AutoCAD
since version 2. My experiences with the previous versions puts me way
ahead of the others in the office in this area.
> My own personal view of the drafting department is that it provides a
> translation service for me - i.e., it translates my ideas to a form the guys
> on the floor can work from. The drafting department is much more than just
> pretty drawings.
>
> I do all of my writing via computers. I suspect that I'm like others
> though - when I need a paper trail, I process through the secretarial pool,
> even though I might have quite a few back channel communication paths going
> on at any given time.
Take a stroll back to the secretarial pool one of these days and ask the
people there what their feelings are about this topic (teaching basis
computer skills / applications to students, rather than letting them
learn "free range" style.) and see what their thoughts are on this. Ask
them their views on just how secure their jobs are, what with products
like Office available now, see how many other people in your company are
choosing to do their own correspondence / create their own presentations
rather than passing it off to the secretarial pool.
> Somewhere in all this, I seem to remember that you seemed to ask where do
> you learn about presentations. (Although it's late, and I can't seem to put
> my finger on the question.) At any rate, if you did ask the question, the
> answer is simple - look to what presentation programs emulate. Need another
> hint? Somewhere in my attic there is a box that contains some publications
> from Eastman Kodak. These books cover things that the casual observer
> doesn't easily see. For example - did you know that given the distance
> between the fartherest person viewing a presentation and the actual
> presentation, there is a formula you can use to determine the smallest type
> you can reliably use on your presentation? There are also similar formulas
> that allow you to determine, given the distance between the nearest viewer
> and the presentation, what the maximum size of the smallest detail can be
> (e.g., minimum resolution required. Not a biggie on a computer terminal
> that's sitting right in front of the viewer, but something to consider if
> you're displaying your presentation on a stadium video system.) These
> formulas are a decent attempt to provide guide lines for those that didn't
> do enough presentations to develop the knowledge through experience. And, if
> you think about it, the knowlege goes back to the guys painting advertising
> signs way back when, even if they didn't make the attempt to codify
> guidelines for the inexperienced.
I answering this section first. The question I asked was aimed at your
comment: "I can't help but wonder what you teach about Powerpoint. The
skills that are required to make a good presentation have been required
long before the advent of presentation authoring systems.". Where
exactly are the 9th, 10th, and 11th graders that take this or any other
school's "basic" computer application skills class going to get these
skills if not in a class like this? What previous class or future class
exposes them to what goes into creating a presentation? Art? It's an
elective and I don't remember from my own hs art classes ever creating a
slide presentation or handouts.
I mean come on, keep this in perspective. The Powerpoint / presentation
portion of this class is covered in a portion of one six-weeks time -
its not the focus of the entire class. If I had to say what the main
focus was it would be: 1) basic computer skills, like saving files,
printing, opening/closing applications and such. 2) word processing,
this is to give the students the concepts of writing something with the
wp, how to change a font, why one font might be more readable than
another, how to format, how to insert page numbers - really basic stuff.
They are not in this class to learn english or writing styles. 3)
Typing, one of the "repeat" assignments has the students using a program
that drills the students to develops some "basic" typing skills. 4)
Internet, our district has a _very_ strict student (and teacher)
internet policy. A portion of the BCIS class instructs the students in
what this policy is and how we expect them to access the internet under
this policy.
M. Kilgore
comes to computers - the kids don't have the inherent "fear" of computers
that many grownups have - from that standpoint, students do know something
that many teachers don't...Namely that computers aren't such a big deal.
This will gradually change as new teachers come on board to replace those
raised in a time when the public was led to believe that only "smart" people
got to use computers but until that time comes it will be relatively easy
for a student to intimidate a teacher simply because the kids don't hesitate
to try something on the computer.
Yes, lets keep this in perspective. You're requiring students to take a
course that at best is only a survey course that's time constrained in such
a manner as to prevent much more than covering menu navigation of a suite
that may or may not be around in future. I don't have much of a problem with
such a course other than I don't think it should required for graduation.
For instance, what happens to your students if they happen to go to a
college that favors Macintosh over Microsoft? In my mind, time is better
spent to write those good papers and process those, er, good numbers than it
is teaching them how to produce pretty output on a computer. I have no doubt
that those that find themselves in a job that requires letter writing will
be better served learning how to write a good letter regardless of the
medium used to realize the letter. BTW, I have less of a problem if the
course is directed to business students as part of their curriculum, but to
require it of all is overkill.
I should also point out that it's good that you're able to expose your
drafting classes to autocad. Unlike the general student population, you know
that there's a good chance that any student that goes through your drafting
sequence will, in fact, end up using those skills in later life.
Those that need to learn how to make a good presentation will. It's quite a
leap to assume that everyone needs to make presentations. Why would they?
Who are giving these presentations? (For that matter, who is attending these
presentations?) How many jobs require the employee to make presentations?
More importantly, what kind of employer is going to find it ecconomically
advantageous to tie up an employee by having him/her waste time doing
something that's more easily handled by an "expert" in presentations? Why
waste a $70k engineer by having him do a $40k job? (or a $20k+ job in the
case of secretaries.) On the other hand, if you anticipate the majority of
your students going in to, say, marketing, then by all means, they might
find being able to knock off a quick good presentation to be of more than
just passing value.
If I were going to require a computer course for all students then I'd go
for something a bit different. Rather than spend time dealing with specific
applications, I would look toward teaching the students basic computer
operation (how to turn it on, generic menu navigation, etc.,) and more
importantly, how to find out how to do whatever it is they want to do when
they're not sure about how to do it with a particular app.
mark
"Martin Rowley" <kmro...@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:38B67C72...@swbell.net...
M. Kilgore
Secondly... well, I suppose I feel a bit devilish. You see, the problem I
see isn't that you're teaching the youngsters how to use computers, it's
that you're requiring all to take the class. I suppose that I still remember
the 10-key calculator class I was forced to take in college. Why did I have
to take the class? Because I would need it in later life. Of course, that's
not really a good enough reason to feel devilish, especially since the class
had some old Friden rotary jobs I could play with (now that's calculatin'),
so why should I feel that way?
Well, as luck would have it, my wife was having a 4th grade class use both a
digital camera and PowerPoint this week. My wife, BTW, is a instructional
facilitator (math & language) this year. The first part of the week, the
students did the "grunt" work of getting their words just right and the
making of presentation was the culminating event. How'd it go. It went well.
The kids didn't have any problems and, more importantly, their teacher
learned a way to integrate technology into a lesson plan. That's really the
problem that we seem to have with technology in our district - the kids take
to it like ducks to water, but getting the teachers to model the use of
technology on a consistent basis is a bit of a problem. How can we expect
students to believe something is important when the teaching staff doesn't
know how to use it?
Of course, it can be argued that a 4th grader can't produce a great
presentation. Could be. Fourth graders seldom write great novels either, but
their writing abilities will generally improve as they move through the
educational process. Or perhaps I should say, their abilities will improve
if they're given a chance to use them all through the educational process.
I've seen some pretty decent work out of first graders, though - I guess
some just have a natural talent for doing some things. I'm, er, optimistic
about the teachers, even though they're a tough crowd to get moving,
sometimes.
I guess that's really the problem I have with "computer literacy" - if the
teachers are consistently modeling the technology and using it in their
day-to-day activities, then there's little reason to teach literacy as a
separate course - the kids will be able to see that knowing how to use the
technology is important and learn how to use the technology in a consistent
stream of bit's and pieces throughout their own educational career.
Certainly, the kids will be exposed to enough bad presentations from
teachers to learn what not to do. But they also learn how much of a
presentation is enough, or too little, or too much.
To sum it up, the problem my district has is not getting the kids "computer
literate," it's getting the teachers "computer literate." I suspect we're
not the only ones that have the problem.
mark
"Martin Rowley" <kmro...@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:38B92E87...@swbell.net...
> Mark, I give up. You have your mind set one way on this issue and I (and
> my district) have mine set the other direction. We feel that it is a
> good thing to teach these basic level computer application skills to all
> of our students and will continue to.
>
> In closing I will again try and give you an example of the benefit of
> this basic computer application skills class. As I mentioned before in
> another section of this thread (Computer course requirement) when
> replying to another poster: I have a student in my CAD class that is a
> senior this year. He is taking both the basic drafting class
> (Engineering Graphics) and my Computer-Aided Drafting 1 class
> concurrently this year. His main focus in high school so far has been
> the Automotive Technology classes, as he wants to be a mechanic and
> later maybe more than that. This would most likely not be a student that
> you would see in a basic computer skills class if we followed your point
> of view. However he did take our BCIS class earlier in his high school
> course work. The past week-end I accompanied the Auto Tech teacher and
> several of his students to the VICA (Vocational Industrial Clubs of
> America - now called SkillsUSA VICA) district competition. This student
> and the others submitted automotive projects that they had worked on.
> These consisted of examples of automotive parts that they had rebuild /
> restored (some simple and some really complex). Along with the actual
> project the students were required to submit a project report binder
> that outlined and detailed their project. All of our students used
> various programs to create their documentation. This one particular
> student used Word to type the overall document and used Excel to
> calculate his data from the tests he ran on his project and to organize
> the results - which he then imported and pasted into his Word document.
> He used a digital camera to record pictures of the progress of his
> project from start to finish and several graphics programs to crop and
> adjust the pictures before adding them to his report. He also used
> Powerpoint to create several inserts for his binder and to create the
> dividers for the different sections. Now I should also say that he used
> many of the skills that the learned in his English classes to help write
> the report. He had to do his report in a similar fashion as that of any
> english paper. His Auto Tech teacher and I helped neither him or any of
> the other students in the creation of these reports. These were skills
> that they brought to our class from the previous classes that they took
> (BCIS being one of them).
>
> How did our students do? Of the ten projects the students brought, only
> one didn't receive a blue ribbon (that student's project wasn't quite
> "finished", but the report looked good). The other nine will be going on
> to state competition in a few months.
>
> I would hazard a guess that a few (ok, most) of these students will not
> be going into careers where they would routinely make / give Powerpoint
> presentations on a daily basis. But the skills that they learned in BCIS
> and the effect those skills had on their work in Auto Tech is exactly
> what we were wanting to accomplish by requiring these students to take
> the basic computer application class. And hopefully when these Auto Tech
> students go on to college or technical school, they will reap similar
> benefits from these skills also.
>
> Martin
M. Kilgore
hints?
The "fun" aspect of computers, while being helpful in the introductory phase
of learning, can be a bit detrimental when one finds that all the really
cool stuff still requires "grunt" work to accomplish it. In the industrial
arts, I'm hopeful that one day most schools will have the equipment that
will allow a student to complete a project from design through
implementation so the student can better understand how his drawings and
plans actually translate to the real world. There is a benefit to not having
everything be a simulation in a bit of melted sand. I think it's important
that students get at least the occasional opportunity to make a finished
product they can touch and maybe take home and display on the mantle. I'm
also pretty big on wanting to connect the computers to the real world via
strain gauges and such so that all inputs aren't simulated.
Maybe in the larger picture, though, it doesn't matter whether a computer or
a human puts a fillet in a square corner for relief. I like to think,
though, that it still does matter that at least a few humans always
understand why God created fillets.
mark
"Martin Rowley" <kmro...@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:38B608BE...@swbell.net...
> comments below.
>
> Martin
>
> "M. Kilgore" wrote:
SNIP
Martin Rowley
lower grades like this. I most likely doesn't hurt for them to use it,
but the problem I see is that if many of the teachers "don't" know the
software themselves the children may be picking up some incorrect
"habits". These will cause both the student and their future teachers
some amount of grief when it comes time to teach this at a higher level.
I see this sometimes in my repair course when students have had "some"
(played with) electronics in middle school and they perceive that they
"know" everything about it. I think it's fine to expose them to this
type of technology, but only if we "remind" them that there is still
more to learn.
I think I'm picking up a point that is common to your discussion here,
you keep illustrating your examples with courses and material that you
took in college (drafting, 10-key). We are discussing what's appropriate
/ not appropriate for k-12 (specifically 9-12) students. I think in this
case comparing college course to those taught in high school is
comparing apples and oranges.
We too are attempting to get our teachers computer literate. Just the
other day I was talking to another teacher while she was grading papers
in the hall (we were hall monitors during TAAS testing). She teaches a
history class and was grading some reports/essays papers. As I was
watching she marked a few papers with a big red X and put them in a
separate pile that the grade ones. Curious I asked her why was that, she
replied those are the one I can definitely tell that they cut and pasted
directly from the internet. She said that this was the first year that
she rejected work like this and it's was due to her getting a computer
in her room and learning about the WWW herself. She believes that many
of the "A" papers she got last year might just have come directly off
the web. this too kinds of illustrates my point that students need a
dedicated (and required) class to learn basic skills. Most people if you
leave it up to them are not going to learn anything until the day they
need those skills and it's usually not a convenient time to do so then.
We got a new electronic version of our gradebook, which they introduced
us to a few days before our grades were due. They gave us about an hours
worth of "training" which was mostly taken up by the trainers having to
teach many of the academic (non computer literate) teachers how to put
the floppy disk in their computer and install the program. Needless to
say no one inputted their grades using this new system, as we just
didn't know how. Even now six months later, I'm still doing it the old
way (and I consider myself computer literate) just because I haven't had
the time to sit down and figure out the software and to figure out how I
am going to intergrate my present grading system into something that can
be easily programed into this gradebook. I am most likely going to wait
until this summer and learn it myself.
You illustrate the problem with the teachers you mention, many are not
computer literate, an many are never going to be until someone says
"Your required to be computer literate, and here is a course that will
give you some basic skills".
Martin
Martin Rowley
Elementary students test virtual reality applications
http://www.eschoolnews.com/article.html?XP_PUB=eschoolonline&XP_TABLE=current&XP_RECORD=938437123&XP_FORMAT=article_body
Pa. Gov. calls for two 'digital' school districts
http://www.eschoolnews.com/article.html?XP_PUB=eschoolonline&XP_TABLE=current&XP_RECORD=938438451&XP_FORMAT=article_body
Martin
M. Kilgore
Ah, but the trick is, Martin, is that no one is teaching kids Powerpoint,
Hyperstudio, or word processing in the lower grades. Instead, the students
are just using those apps to accomplish part of a task. Those students, even
the very young ones, are well capable of learning how to insert a picture,
button, or text into a presentation. The finer points of making a
presentation, they pick up along the way - just as they pick up the finer
points of writing a good paragraph along the way. What's going on is just a
change in medium and not a change in paradigm or thought process.
Perhaps comparing courses between HS and college is like comparing apples
and oranges, Martin. Still, your defense for requiring all students to take
BCIS largely seems to be that the students will need those skills in their
work careers. I should think that a college, being of necessity closer to
the actual work careers of their students, would be appropriately better
placed than a high school to determine what courses students would need in
their work career. It may sound odd, but I actually think that one of the
primary reasons that all my college's business students were required to
take 10-key was that the technology was expensive enough then (all of our
units could multiply and divide) that it was easier to justify the
technology if all business students were required to take the class. (Yes,
youngsters, mechanical machines that could multiply and divide were high
tech in the early 70's.) I was, BTW, a DP, er, "Quanitative Analysis" major
at the time, so much of my real need for calulating was in hexidecimal.
I eventually moved to C.S. as I discovered I enjoyed twiddlin' bits much
more than creating accounting systems.
The teachers have the upper hand with technology. You simply can't force
them to use technology since most are quite capable of teaching well without
it. Add some mitigating factors, such as expecting teachers to deliever a
presentation to a class of 20+ students via a 15" monitor, slow printers
without enough ink or supplies, few content specific software titles other
than drill & kill, weak staff development, and little tech support (at least
when it's needed,) and you might, if you're a bit like me, wonder that any
teachers use any technology at all.
mark
"Martin Rowley" <kmro...@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:38BA6A16...@swbell.net...
M. Kilgore
Considering how tough it can be to get some teachers to even start up a web
browser, I can imagine what the staff development problems will be like.
Still, I suppose it's worth investigating, especially if inexpensive
feedback suits come into being. Heh... I can imagine the edtech listerv
after such things take hold. "Help, one of the students that frequents the
vr lab was sent home with head lice yesterday. Does anyone have a good
method of sanitizing the VR equipment?"
Re: Ridge's digital district - What does collecting milk money have to do
with educating students? Frankly, I'm a little surprised that PA isn't
already doing much of this sort of thing. We certainly seem to be moving at
good clip toward computerizing the administrative functions here in
Lousiana. Shoot, being in Lousiana, I guess I just figured everyone else was
ahead of us. ;-)
I suppose that before I started calling a district a "digital district," I
would want to make certain that each classroom had those little things that
help make technology closer to a joy to use. You know, those little things
like video projectors or large screen monitors that actually make it
practical for a teacher to show a presentation to a class. Little things
like lots of digital imaging, printers that can print more that 6
pages/minute. Little things like enough power outlets in each room to plug
everything into. There's a whole lot of things that I think would more
closely identify a district as a digtal one other than just sloughing off
administrative functions to networked desktops.
mark
"Martin Rowley" <kmro...@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:38BB046D...@swbell.net...
Martin Rowley
"M. Kilgore" wrote:
>
> Ah, but the trick is, Martin, is that no one is teaching kids Powerpoint,
> Hyperstudio, or word processing in the lower grades. Instead, the students
> are just using those apps to accomplish part of a task. Those students, even
> the very young ones, are well capable of learning how to insert a picture,
> button, or text into a presentation. The finer points of making a
> presentation, they pick up along the way - just as they pick up the finer
> points of writing a good paragraph along the way. What's going on is just a
> change in medium and not a change in paradigm or thought process.
Actually from what I am hearing from the Technology directory at our
district, we are teaching computer skills in the lower levels.
> Perhaps comparing courses between HS and college is like comparing apples
> and oranges, Martin. Still, your defense for requiring all students to take
> BCIS largely seems to be that the students will need those skills in their
> work careers. I should think that a college, being of necessity closer to
> the actual work careers of their students, would be appropriately better
> placed than a high school to determine what courses students would need in
> their work career. It may sound odd, but I actually think that one of the
> primary reasons that all my college's business students were required to
> take 10-key was that the technology was expensive enough then (all of our
> units could multiply and divide) that it was easier to justify the
> technology if all business students were required to take the class. (Yes,
> youngsters, mechanical machines that could multiply and divide were high
> tech in the early 70's.) I was, BTW, a DP, er, "Quanitative Analysis" major
> at the time, so much of my real need for calulating was in hexidecimal.
> I eventually moved to C.S. as I discovered I enjoyed twiddlin' bits much
> more than creating accounting systems.
As I have stated several times, the main goal of this class is to give
students basic computer skills that they can use in all their other
classes. But these skills will also help them later in life (either at
college or at work).
> The teachers have the upper hand with technology. You simply can't force
> them to use technology since most are quite capable of teaching well without
> it. Add some mitigating factors, such as expecting teachers to deliever a
> presentation to a class of 20+ students via a 15" monitor, slow printers
> without enough ink or supplies, few content specific software titles other
> than drill & kill, weak staff development, and little tech support (at least
> when it's needed,) and you might, if you're a bit like me, wonder that any
> teachers use any technology at all.
All of our BCIS teachers have LCD projector units that they use daily in
class to put notes up on the screen or to do demonstrations of
applications. Most of the time they are using PP to present these notes.
I also use an LCD / overhead projector setup to do my class
demonstrations with CAD. Many of the other teachers in our building also
use a similar set up (business teachers, Ag teachers, and Digital
Animation teacher). This is also pretty standard set up in the lower
levels also (we have a very progressive Technology director).
> mark
>
Martin Rowley
Knowledge and Skills) for K-2 which we are to REQUIRED to teach to the
students of Texas. These are effective as of September 1, 1998
For all the TEKS for all subjects (K-5):
http://www.tea.state.tx.us/teks/
126.2. Technology Applications, Kindergarten-Grade 2.
(a) Introduction.
(1) The technology applications curriculum has four strands:
foundations, information acquisition, work in solving problems, and
communication.
(2) Through the study of technology applications foundations,
including technology-related terms, concepts, and data input strategies,
students learn to make informed decisions about technologies and their
applications. The efficient acquisition of information includes the
identification of task requirements; the plan for using search
strategies; and the use of technology to access, analyze, and evaluate
the acquired information. By using technology as a tool that supports
the work of individuals and groups in solving problems, students will
select the technology appropriate for the task, synthesize knowledge,
create a solution, and evaluate the results. Students communicate
information in different formats and to diverse audiences. A variety of
technologies will be used. Students will analyze and evaluate the
results.
(b) Knowledge and skills.
(1) Foundations. The student demonstrates knowledge and appropriate use
of hardware components, software programs, and their connections.
The student is expected to:
(A) use technology terminology appropriate to the task;
(B) start and exit programs as well as create, name, and save
files; and
(C) use networking terminology such as on-line, network, or
password and access remote equipment on a network such as a printer.
(2) Foundations. The student uses data input skills appropriate to the
task.
The student is expected to:
(A) use a variety of input devices such as mouse, keyboard, disk
drive, modem, voice/sound recorder, scanner, digital video, CD-ROM, or
touch screen;
(B) use proper keyboarding techniques such as correct hand and body
positions and smooth and rhythmic keystroke patterns as grade-level
appropriate;
(C) demonstrate touch keyboarding techniques for operating the
alphabetic, numeric, punctuation, and symbol keys as grade-level
appropriate;
(D) produce documents at the keyboard, proofread, and correct
errors; and
(E) use language skills including capitalization, punctuation,
spelling, word division, and use of numbers and symbols as grade-level
appropriate.
(3) Foundations. The student complies with the laws and examines the
issues regarding the use of technology in society.
The student is expected to:
(A) follow acceptable use policies when using computers; and
(B) model respect of intellectual property by not illegally copying
software or another individual's electronic work.
(4) Information acquisition. The student uses a variety of strategies
to acquire information from electronic resources, with appropriate
supervision.
The student is expected to:
(A) apply keyword searches to acquire information; and
(B) select appropriate strategies to navigate and access
information for research and resource sharing.
(5) Information acquisition. The student acquires electronic
information in a variety of formats, with appropriate supervision.
The student is expected to:
(A) acquire information including text, audio, video, and graphics;
and
(B) use on-line help.
(6) Information acquisition. The student evaluates the acquired
electronic information.
The student is expected to:
(A) determine the success of strategies used to acquire electronic
information; and
(B) determine the usefulness and appropriateness of digital
information.
(7) Solving problems. The student uses appropriate computer-based
productivity tools to create and modify solutions to problems.
The student is expected to:
(A) use software programs with audio, video, and graphics to
enhance learning experiences; and
(B) use appropriate software, including the use of word processing
and multimedia, to express ideas and solve problems.
(8) Solving problems. The student uses research skills and electronic
communication, with appropriate supervision, to create new knowledge.
The student is expected to:
(A) use communication tools to participate in group projects; and
(B) use electronic tools and research skills to build a knowledge
base regarding a topic, task, or assignment.
(9) Solving problems. The student uses technology applications to
facilitate evaluation of work, both process and product.
The student is expected to:
(A) use software features, such as on-line help, to evaluate work
progress; and
(B) use software features, such as slide show previews, to evaluate
final product.
(10) Communication. The student formats digital information for
appropriate and effective communication.
The student is expected to:
(A) use font attributes, color, white space, and graphics to
ensure that products are appropriate for the defined audience; and
(B) use font attributes, color, white space, and graphics to
ensure that products are appropriate for the communication media
including
multimedia screen displays and printed materials.
(11) Communication. The student delivers the product electronically in
a variety of media, with appropriate supervision.
The student is expected to:
(A) publish information in a variety of media including, but not
limited to, printed copy or monitor display; and
(B) publish information in a variety of media including, but not
limited to, stored files or video.
(12) Communication. The student uses technology applications to
facilitate evaluation of communication, both process and product.
The student is expected to:
(A) select representative products to be collected and stored in
an electronic evaluation tool; and
(B) evaluate the product for relevance to the assignment or task.
Source: The provisions of this ยง126.2 adopted to be effective September
1, 1998, 22 TexReg 5203.
Magi D. Shepley
from one of the worst schools in the state of PA. HIS children don't attend
that school or the schools in that district.
Magi
"M. Kilgore" wrote:
> mark
>
> "Martin Rowley" <kmro...@swbell.net> wrote in message
Magi D. Shepley
charge of layout and design at my college newspaper my senior year, so I
know what "white space" is, and appropriate layout designs, but to expect a
2nd grader to be able to do that???
Magi
Martin Rowley
able to do this. These are the guidelines that Texas teachers are
expected to integrate technology into their curriculum.
This is pretty much the same list for all grades.
Martin
Ernie Wisdom
M. Kilgore <mkil...@nospam.prysm.net> wrote in message
news:38baf...@news.shreve.net...
> Knowing how to fund the things - now that's real computer literacy. Got
any
> hints?
The first place to start is http://www.ed.gov/funding.html, then every state
has an ed department.
Their are also many foundations and corporations that will fund educational
programs.
Many school districts are now starting their own 501(c)(3)'s to get funding
that they can not as a goverment agency.
I do grant writing as a volunter an have done many over the last 10 years in
the area of education. So if anyone has a specific project I will help thm
write a grant via this group or email.
--
Ernie Wisdom
Volunteer at Large
Downey, CA
ewi...@earthlink.net
>
> The "fun" aspect of computers, while being helpful in the introductory
phase
> of learning, can be a bit detrimental when one finds that all the really
> cool stuff still requires "grunt" work to accomplish it. In the industrial
> arts, I'm hopeful that one day most schools will have the equipment that
> will allow a student to complete a project from design through
> implementation so the student can better understand how his drawings and
> plans actually translate to the real world. There is a benefit to not
having
> everything be a simulation in a bit of melted sand. I think it's important
> that students get at least the occasional opportunity to make a finished
> product they can touch and maybe take home and display on the mantle. I'm
> also pretty big on wanting to connect the computers to the real world via
> strain gauges and such so that all inputs aren't simulated.
>
> Maybe in the larger picture, though, it doesn't matter whether a computer
or
> a human puts a fillet in a square corner for relief. I like to think,
> though, that it still does matter that at least a few humans always
> understand why God created fillets.
>
> mark
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> "Martin Rowley" <kmro...@swbell.net> wrote in message
> news:38B608BE...@swbell.net...
> > comments below.
> >
> > Martin
> >
> > "M. Kilgore" wrote:
> SNIP
Magi D. Shepley
all grade levels... I mean, c'mon!!!! We're spending a lot of time teaching
about computers, but not how to USE them.
Magi
Martin Rowley wrote:
> I agree with you that it's a little much to expect K-2 graders to be
> able to do this. These are the guidelines that Texas teachers are
> expected to integrate technology into their curriculum.
>
> This is pretty much the same list for all grades.
>
> Martin
>
> "Magi D. Shepley" wrote:
> >
M. Kilgore
normally a first grade teacher, has been using computers with her students
for most of this past decade. We've been doing some heavy evangelizing and
staff development over the past 3 years, so it's more likely now that you'll
find the lower grades doing more with computers as part of the normal
routine in our elementary schools. The kids, themselves, also are becoming
more demanding when it comes to technology being made available. They, after
all, believe all those ads they watch on TV that tell them "everyone" uses
computers in some way so they wonder why teachers aren't using them more.
Additionally, children's cartoon shows have been showing computers being
used more and more as an appliance that the good guys use instead of the
agent of evil that only the bad guys have access to. That's the real
advantage the kids have... they see computers more as anappliance to be used
rather than the temple that so many of we grownups try to turn computers in
to.
I often think that the bigger "computer literacy" problem involves getting
those good parents trained in the realities of including computers in the
educational setting. Too often, parents think that all a district need do to
use computers is simply buy some and toss them about the classroooms along
with a few copies of Reader Rabbit and Oregon Trail. Not true, the effective
use of computers in the classroom requires much more to make the things
useful. Let's take our presentations, for example. What do teachers need to
make a presentation besides an authoring system? A suitable display device,
of course. Yet most parents don't understand that... they can understand
that a VCR needs to be attached to at least a 27" tv, but they don't
understand that a whole class can't look at a single 15" monitor without all
hell breaking loose. I've been working on that problem for the past 3 years
and only now am I begining to make progress. It ain't easy.
mark
"Martin Rowley" <kmro...@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:38BB4B70...@swbell.net...
> Comments below.
>
> "M. Kilgore" wrote:
> >
> > Ah, but the trick is, Martin, is that no one is teaching kids
Powerpoint,
> > Hyperstudio, or word processing in the lower grades. Instead, the
students
> > are just using those apps to accomplish part of a task. Those students,
even
> > the very young ones, are well capable of learning how to insert a
picture,
> > button, or text into a presentation. The finer points of making a
> > presentation, they pick up along the way - just as they pick up the
finer
> > points of writing a good paragraph along the way. What's going on is
just a
> > change in medium and not a change in paradigm or thought process.
>
> Actually from what I am hearing from the Technology directory at our
> district, we are teaching computer skills in the lower levels.
>
> As I have stated several times, the main goal of this class is to give
> students basic computer skills that they can use in all their other
> classes. But these skills will also help them later in life (either at
> college or at work).
>
> > The teachers have the upper hand with technology. You simply can't force
> > them to use technology since most are quite capable of teaching well
without
> > it. Add some mitigating factors, such as expecting teachers to deliever
a
> > presentation to a class of 20+ students via a 15" monitor, slow printers
> > without enough ink or supplies, few content specific software titles
other
> > than drill & kill, weak staff development, and little tech support (at
least
> > when it's needed,) and you might, if you're a bit like me, wonder that
any
> > teachers use any technology at all.
>
M. Kilgore
establish policy instead of educators. I'll break with my normal routine on
this one and move my comments to each item, so read on.
"Martin Rowley" <kmro...@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:38BB5415...@swbell.net...
> Speaking of the lower grades, here are the TEKS (Texas Essential
> Knowledge and Skills) for K-2 which we are to REQUIRED to teach to the
> students of Texas. These are effective as of September 1, 1998
>
> For all the TEKS for all subjects (K-5):
> http://www.tea.state.tx.us/teks/
>
> 126.2. Technology Applications, Kindergarten-Grade 2.
>
> (a) Introduction.
>
> (1) The technology applications curriculum has four strands:
> foundations, information acquisition, work in solving problems, and
> communication.
Think about it, every curriculum should have those four strands. If not,
then why bother sending our children to the school in the first place?
>
> (2) Through the study of technology applications foundations,
> including technology-related terms, concepts, and data input strategies,
> students learn to make informed decisions about technologies and their
> applications. The efficient acquisition of information includes the
> identification of task requirements; the plan for using search
> strategies; and the use of technology to access, analyze, and evaluate
> the acquired information. By using technology as a tool that supports
> the work of individuals and groups in solving problems, students will
> select the technology appropriate for the task, synthesize knowledge,
> create a solution, and evaluate the results. Students communicate
> information in different formats and to diverse audiences. A variety of
> technologies will be used. Students will analyze and evaluate the
> results.
Same as comments as above, with the addition of noting that "diverse
audiences" for K2 shouldn't be anymore diverse than fellow students,
teachers, and the occasional "shine for the parents" activity.
>
> (b) Knowledge and skills.
>
> (1) Foundations. The student demonstrates knowledge and appropriate use
> of hardware components, software programs, and their connections.
> The student is expected to:
>
> (A) use technology terminology appropriate to the task;
Hoo, boy! I suppose that this is OK, but my over 3 decades experience in the
computer field tells me that terminology changes quicker than you can shake
a stick at it.
>
> (B) start and exit programs as well as create, name, and save
> files; and
This is reasonable.
> (C) use networking terminology such as on-line, network, or
> password and access remote equipment on a network such as a printer.
This, of course, requires that the student be provided with the appropriate
network with the appropriate hardware hangin' off of the network. Not a
given in LA.
>
> (2) Foundations. The student uses data input skills appropriate to the
> task.
> The student is expected to:
>
> (A) use a variety of input devices such as mouse, keyboard, disk
> drive, modem, voice/sound recorder, scanner, digital video, CD-ROM, or
> touch screen;
This is reasonable. It would be nice if all the teachers could do the same.
There's also the implicit promise here that the school system will actually
provide these input devices.
>
> (B) use proper keyboarding techniques such as correct hand and body
> positions and smooth and rhythmic keystroke patterns as grade-level
> appropriate;
>
> (C) demonstrate touch keyboarding techniques for operating the
> alphabetic, numeric, punctuation, and symbol keys as grade-level
> appropriate;
B & C aren't very appropriate, if you think about it, because they assume a
K2 student's physical growth has already reached adult level. Is it fair to
expect a 2nd grader to touch type on a keyboard that is physically sized for
an adult. Not in my book.
>
> (D) produce documents at the keyboard, proofread, and correct
> errors; and
>
> (E) use language skills including capitalization, punctuation,
> spelling, word division, and use of numbers and symbols as grade-level
> appropriate.
Except for the keyboarding requirement, D&E should already be covered in the
language curriculum.
>
> (3) Foundations. The student complies with the laws and examines the
> issues regarding the use of technology in society.
> The student is expected to:
>
> (A) follow acceptable use policies when using computers; and
>
> (B) model respect of intellectual property by not illegally copying
> software or another individual's electronic work.
This section will become appropriate as more and more teachers develop the
understanding and model the knowledge.
> (4) Information acquisition. The student uses a variety of strategies
> to acquire information from electronic resources, with appropriate
> supervision.
> The student is expected to:
>
> (A) apply keyword searches to acquire information; and
>
> (B) select appropriate strategies to navigate and access
> information for research and resource sharing.
I suppose section 4 is OK if the teachers are able to model the appropriate
skills.
>
> (5) Information acquisition. The student acquires electronic
> information in a variety of formats, with appropriate supervision.
> The student is expected to:
>
> (A) acquire information including text, audio, video, and graphics;
My own children never, I repeat, never had a problem crapping up my hard
drives with "acquired information." The bigger problem seems to be in
letting the kids know what information is worth acquring.
> and
>
> (B) use on-line help.
YES! While Texas is at it, they ought to make certain all the teachers know
how to use online help, too.
>
> (6) Information acquisition. The student evaluates the acquired
> electronic information.
> The student is expected to:
>
> (A) determine the success of strategies used to acquire electronic
> information; and
Success? At the second grade level, success is determined by whether you
found what you were looking for or not. When I was in second grade, success
depended on whether World Book covered it or not.
>
> (B) determine the usefulness and appropriateness of digital
> information.
Based on what? Life experience? Teachers at the lower grade levels have a
responsibility to guarantee that all information they make available to
students is appropriate, if not always useful.
>
> (7) Solving problems. The student uses appropriate computer-based
> productivity tools to create and modify solutions to problems.
> The student is expected to:
>
> (A) use software programs with audio, video, and graphics to
> enhance learning experiences; and
NO! The teacher should be expected to do the enhancing, not the student.
>
> (B) use appropriate software, including the use of word processing
> and multimedia, to express ideas and solve problems.
>
> (8) Solving problems. The student uses research skills and electronic
> communication, with appropriate supervision, to create new knowledge.
> The student is expected to:
>
> (A) use communication tools to participate in group projects; and
>
> (B) use electronic tools and research skills to build a knowledge
> base regarding a topic, task, or assignment.
>
> (9) Solving problems. The student uses technology applications to
> facilitate evaluation of work, both process and product.
> The student is expected to:
>
> (A) use software features, such as on-line help, to evaluate work
> progress; and
>
> (B) use software features, such as slide show previews, to evaluate
> final product.
>
> (10) Communication. The student formats digital information for
> appropriate and effective communication.
> The student is expected to:
>
> (A) use font attributes, color, white space, and graphics to
> ensure that products are appropriate for the defined audience; and
Where the heck is a second grader going to learn what's appropriate for a
given audience? It's easy if the audience is other second graders as the
student only need look to himself for the determination of appropriateness,
but for other groups, the teacher will have to make the determination.
> (B) use font attributes, color, white space, and graphics to
> ensure that products are appropriate for the communication media
> including
> multimedia screen displays and printed materials.
Part of this isn't new. For instance, white space management has always been
a problem for the elementary teacher and student. Other aspects might be, if
done with a modicum of completeness, too much to expect from a teacher, let
alone a student.
>
> (11) Communication. The student delivers the product electronically in
> a variety of media, with appropriate supervision.
Again, there's the implicit promise that the school system will supply the
needed hardware for such a presentation. Many do not.
> The student is expected to:
>
> (A) publish information in a variety of media including, but not
> limited to, printed copy or monitor display; and
>
> (B) publish information in a variety of media including, but not
> limited to, stored files or video.
>
> (12) Communication. The student uses technology applications to
> facilitate evaluation of communication, both process and product.
> The student is expected to:
>
> (A) select representative products to be collected and stored in
> an electronic evaluation tool; and
Say What??
>
> (B) evaluate the product for relevance to the assignment or task.
That's the teacher's job.
M. Kilgore
got pushed up because one of the people that needed to sign it was going to
be out of town at the wrong time kept my participation in this Ng to a
minimum for the past few days.
mark
"Ernie Wisdom" <ewi...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:WSav4.4333$PY4.1...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> > mark
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "Martin Rowley" <kmro...@swbell.net> wrote in message
> > news:38B608BE...@swbell.net...
> > > comments below.
> > >
> > > Martin
> > >
> > > "M. Kilgore" wrote:
> > SNIP
Ernie Wisdom
> Thanks for the offer, Ernie. As a matter of fact, a proposal due date that
> got pushed up because one of the people that needed to sign it was going
to
> be out of town at the wrong time kept my participation in this Ng to a
> minimum for the past few days.
>
> mark
Anytime, I do this with people online all the time.
> > > mark
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "Martin Rowley" <kmro...@swbell.net> wrote in message
> > > news:38B608BE...@swbell.net...
> > > > comments below.
> > > >
> > > > Martin
> > > >
> > > > "M. Kilgore" wrote:
> > > SNIP