Time Article - What Teachers Hate about Parents (x-posted)
toto
I have several, but the one that is pertinent here:
A parent came to the school with a complaint about homework in
geometry class. Parent said "If he can't get his work done in school,
he won't do it at home. It cuts into my quality time with my son if
he has homework to do."
You have to subscribe to Time Magazine (or go to the library
to get the whole article). I read it in print.
http://www.time.com/time/covers/1101050221/story.html
Parents Behaving Badly
Inside the new classroom power struggle: What teachers say
about pushy moms and dads who drive them crazy
By NANCY GIBBS
Posted Sunday, February 13, 2005
If you could walk past the teachers' lounge and listen in, what sorts
of stories would you hear?
An Iowa high school counselor gets a call from a parent protesting the
C her child received on an assignment. "The parent argued every point
in the essay," recalls the counselor, who soon realized why the mother
was so upset about the grade. "It became apparent that she'd written
it."
A sixth-grade teacher in California tells a girl in her class that she
needs to work on her reading at home, not just in school. "Her mom
came in the next day," the teacher says, "and started yelling at me
that I had emotionally upset her child."
--
Dorothy
There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..
The Outer Limits
Rosalie B.
>Any anecdotes?
A friend of my sister was teaching in an inner city school in
Baltimore some years ago. She asked a parent to come in for a
conference because one of her students was not making an effort to
learn to read. The parent totally did not see why she was upset.
"But," protested my sister's friend, "he will need to learn to read to
get a job."
"Why? He can just go on welfare like the rest of us." was the
response.
I had a parent come in and complain about the fact that I saw her son
running to school in the morning (instead of taking the bus), and did
not call and tell her. (This was 6th grade in middle school.) He
wasn't even in my homeroom.
The same parent complained because I asked the kids to do a weather
instrument as a project at home, and I gave them instruction sheets
with several different ones on it (one of which was a rain gauge which
consisted only of an open topped can or container with markings on the
side). The child evidently decided to do one which required a half
gallon milk carton and a broom straw. The mom 'had to' get a half
gallon of milk when she normally got gallons, and 'had to' go out and
buy a broom.
grandma Rosalie
Jen
"toto" <scar...@wicked.witch> wrote in message
news:oqhq11heqepn4apc8...@4ax.com...
> Any anecdotes?
Many!!!
A mom once burst into my Grade 11 English class to berate my teacher about a
mark her son had recieved. Aparently a B isn't good enough and her son
couldn't possibly be that stupid, and the teacher was obviously being
stubborn and should give him an A.
Her son sank under the table to hide.
The Ranger
news:oqhq11heqepn4apc8...@4ax.com...
> Any anecdotes?
Not from teachers but one I witnessed at a district meeting with PTA
leaders.
The topic of quantity over quality has become a major issue within our
district. Some parents want their kids studying morning to late into the
night; others are a little more sensible about amounts. Teachers try and
accommodate both but have begun being flooded by page-after-ream from a
minority of parents. The two extreme POVs were in this meeting, almost
across the tables from each other.
Parent I'm-shooting-for-Harvard-and-he-NEEDS-make-work volleyed, "There
are just too many minutes where my child doesn't have any schoolwork. He
is going to go to Harvard Business so he needs more homework."
"Yeah? My child's not going to Harvard and is doing an hour in each
subject per day. He has six classes and three electives; you do the
math."
"Don't you help him?"
"You bet. Anytime he has to color a map, write an essay, or research a
topic, I make sure his homework is done."
I sat there but common sense got the better of me, "So you're doing his
geography, English, and science reports for him?"
"Why not? They're nothing more than an attempt to appease [waves at
other parent] them..."
"Because he's not learning anything! Are you going to go to college with
him, too?!"
The more she opened her mouth, the more I became convinced her son had
never done one page of homework, let alone earned any of _his_ grades.
The Ranger
Mermaid
"toto" <scar...@wicked.witch> wrote in message
news:oqhq11heqepn4apc8...@4ax.com...
No but I have a major school rant. I hope this doesn't offend any teacher
types. This occurred today.
The school my dd goes to is lame on parents. They have stated that overall
there is a few that parents will complain or not be supportive. They are
just afraid to engage parents. They need help. They really need help in
the classroom and in other areas like the playground. I can understand why
they overall fear parents. Some of the stuff cited here in posts. Some
parents can be tough. But here I am and there are a few other parents as
well who are really wanting to help. Really great parents. WE are begging
them to let us help out. (Someone on the school board had the nerve to say
to my face that there are no parents who want to volunteer. At the time I
thought maybe I was in the minority but I am by and far not. Several of us
are practically begging and very proactive to be involved in our childrens
education)
So anyhow finally last week I get a call to come and work with a student in
2nd grade. He is one of the youngest 2nd graders and while he is smart he
lacks the attention span at times to keep up. With 25 students in the class
the teacher had trouble staying with him and taking care of all the other
students during a lesson. So finally she asked for help. Principal calls
me (and there are a few other parents involved as well for other days) to
come by on friday for an hour and shadow him during the math section which
is his hardest time of the day. So I go and I know two other parents as
well did too. It is reported to me that this student did better this last
week with us there just encouraging him to stay on task for 1 hour.
Today I get a call. Don't come again. Although it is helping the student
I'm sorry but your presence in the classroom is bothering the new student
teacher who states she can't teach while you are there because other adults
in the classroom make her nervous. The other two parents got the same
call.
Personally I find this absolutely ridiculous.
Anni
Melania
Yes, that is ridiculous. And I am a teacher type (well, child of
teachers-turned-administrators, very pro-public education, all my mom's
siblings are teachers, my brother's a teacher, etc, etc).
Relatives of mine pulled their son out of grade 2 three weeks before
x-mas, because they felt the school system had failed him/them.
Apparently, his kindergarten, grade 1, and grade 2 teachers, and
principal, all had insurmountable shortcomings (no two the same,
though) - IIRC, the grade 1 teacher "did not command his respect."
Clearly it was the school's fault that he was frequently in trouble and
getting unsatisfactory reports. So now they're homeschooling. Scarily,
this kid was socially a nightmare before starting public school, and
just at the end of grade 1 and beginning of grade 2, I had started
thinking, "wow, the boy's really made progress. He's actually pretty
functional these days."
I'm not against homeschooling, at all, just against this couple in
particular doing it. Especially since the only normalizing social arena
he's encountered appears to be public school. I shudder to think what's
going to happen to him over the next few years, if they keep him at
home. OTOH, I bet there are a bunch of teachers and a principal who are
only too happy to see his parents' out the door. . .
Melania
Mom to Joffre (Jan 11, 2003)
and #2 (edd May 21, 2005)
Bruce Bridgman and Jeanne Yang
"toto" <scar...@wicked.witch> wrote in message
news:oqhq11heqepn4apc8...@4ax.com...
> Any anecdotes?
>
I found that the parents just never stop and the children grow up into
adults who expect people to do things *for* them.
When I was in college, parents of a 16 year old genius (believe me, he
needed no advocacy on his behalf) came to complain about his grades in a
math class. Maybe because he wasn't the absolute standout in class? I
don't know. He certainly was not threatened with failure, or even a B.
In grad school, I had a mediocre student who thought 1) I would write a
glowing letter of recommendation beause - well, I don't know, maybe because
we were the same age? (I told him I couldn't); and 2) he would get into the
doctoral program after I (and two faculty members) told him he probably
didn't have a chance (I was also on the admissions committee). He honestly
thought he would get into a PhD program just because he was a good guy; his
lackluster grades and lack of focus were mere technicalities.
Jeanne
Kim E
"Mermaid" <tfwil...@theriver.com> wrote in message
news:3855fqF...@individual.net...
That's because it is ridiculous on several levels - 1.)Student
teachers get observed all the time, deal with it
2.) i can't believe the student teacher whined to the
administration about this 3.) I can't believe the administration
gave in to the whining at their admitted detriment to students
BTW, I was a teacher before becoming a SAHM last year, and welcomed
parents in my classroom anytime.
-kim
Hillary Israeli
*
*>Any anecdotes?
A friend of mine teaches in a "good" school district in PA (which has
produced such notables as Reggie Jackson, Dr. Michael Brown, and the
Netanyahu brothers, not to mention ME :)) but she still has problem
parents. In particular, she has been horrified on more than one occasion
to find notes in students' charts that teachers are NOT allowed to call
parents to notify them of students' bad behavior or failure, because
previous such calls have been temporally associated with subsequent
prolonged absence of the student, or subsequent unexplained injury to the
student!!!
--
Hillary Israeli, VMD
Lafayette Hill/PA/USA/Earth
"Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it is
too dark to read." --Groucho Marx
Ilse Witch
> Any anecdotes?
We're not in that stage yet, but I really enjoyed the article. I had never
thought of things very much, and it gave me a lot to think about. I'll
definitely safe it for future reference.
--
-- I
mommy to DS (July '02)
mommy to four tiny angels (28 Oct'03, 17 Feb'04, 20 May'04 & 28 Oct'04)
preggers with twins EDD August'05
guardian of DH (33)
eliz...@yahoo.com
The Ranger wrote:
> toto <scar...@wicked.witch> wrote in message
> news:oqhq11heqepn4apc8...@4ax.com...
> > Any anecdotes?
>
> subject per day. He has six classes and three electives; you do the
> math."
Okay, I don't want to say that it's legitimate to do your kid's
homework, but if you have six subjects, an hour of homework in each is
going to leave no time for anything in the child's life but schoolwork
and sleep.
Beth
Bruce Bridgman and Jeanne Yang
<eliz...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1109255108....@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Then obviously something has to give - usually a class. Rarely (or has
things really changed that much) do schools require six classes and three
electives. Drop an elective or two. But even if this is the case, I don't
think heavy coursework is a legitimate reason for parents to do their
children's homework.
Jeanne
Mermaid
>
> Yes, that is ridiculous. And I am a teacher type (well, child of
> teachers-turned-administrators, very pro-public education, all my mom's
> siblings are teachers, my brother's a teacher, etc, etc).
>
> Relatives of mine pulled their son out of grade 2 three weeks before
> x-mas, because they felt the school system had failed him/them.
> Apparently, his kindergarten, grade 1, and grade 2 teachers, and
> principal, all had insurmountable shortcomings (no two the same,
> though) - IIRC, the grade 1 teacher "did not command his respect."
> Clearly it was the school's fault that he was frequently in trouble and
> getting unsatisfactory reports. So now they're homeschooling. Scarily,
> this kid was socially a nightmare before starting public school, and
> just at the end of grade 1 and beginning of grade 2, I had started
> thinking, "wow, the boy's really made progress. He's actually pretty
> functional these days."
>
> I'm not against homeschooling, at all, just against this couple in
> particular doing it. Especially since the only normalizing social arena
> he's encountered appears to be public school. I shudder to think what's
> going to happen to him over the next few years, if they keep him at
> home. OTOH, I bet there are a bunch of teachers and a principal who are
> only too happy to see his parents' out the door. . .
>
> Melania
> Mom to Joffre (Jan 11, 2003)
> and #2 (edd May 21, 2005)
That I think is all too true. I'm fed up with my dd's school. I do like
the principal and the teachers she has had so far are good people. I just
really have an issue with the lameness of their attitudes towards parents.
And over all these folks lack insight big time. I don't want to be too
critical because I am not a teacher nor a principal type and wouldn't want
their job persay along with all the antics they have to put up with. My BIL
is a school principal and he is an excellent teacher and principal but he is
really struggling with alot of the parental issues that have come up. I
don't know the answers. (Interesting that my BIL's wife homeschools their
kids??!!!!!)
We don't have a large posse of homeschooling parents here but we do have
some and we do have parents who have taken their kids out of the school here
and placed them farther away in a school that is actually worse because of
issues with teachers and the poor handling of students with disabilities.
So they are opting for an inferior (I'm not talking about the homeschoolers
btw) education just to have them in a school that will give them more
attention and better visibility as a student with special needs. The school
I'm talking about has lost funding and is at risk of being shut down yearly
for problems therein. We live rural and I know we will not be here in 5
years and mostly because of the issues with these schools. We have only
three schools within 2 hours of us and the best one is the one my dd is in.
Anni
>
Mermaid
>
> BTW, I was a teacher before becoming a SAHM last year, and welcomed
> parents in my classroom anytime.
>
> -kim
I think it is so important. I actually took a class dealing with learning
and teaching preschool thru 1st grade children about a year ago. I wanted
to know how my kids will be learning and what to do with them at home since
we don't acutally have pre-school here before age 4. I was looking to be
involved in the school and I was so disappointed when I got a cold shoulder.
The class I took had parents being drawn into the classsroom and teachers
working well with parents.
Anni
>
>
Melania
I think you're right - the school sounds dreadful ITO this whole parent
issue.
>
> We don't have a large posse of homeschooling parents here but we do
have
> some and we do have parents who have taken their kids out of the
school here
> and placed them farther away in a school that is actually worse
because of
> issues with teachers and the poor handling of students with
disabilities.
> So they are opting for an inferior (I'm not talking about the
homeschoolers
> btw) education just to have them in a school that will give them more
> attention and better visibility as a student with special needs.
That is terrible. It's unconscionable (sp?) that a child's quality of
education should suffer like this. Incidentally, that business with the
student teacher was ludicrous.
The school
> I'm talking about has lost funding and is at risk of being shut down
yearly
> for problems therein. We live rural and I know we will not be here
in 5
> years and mostly because of the issues with these schools. We have
only
> three schools within 2 hours of us and the best one is the one my dd
is in.
I grew up in a small town, in a farming area. There are primary schools
in most of the towns, at least the ones with more than a couple hundred
residents, and I think two or three high schools. I was lucky to live
in one of the towns with a high school. Most students were bussed to
school. There were no options beyond either going to *the* local
school, or homeschooling. Unfortunately, in that area the people who
homeschooled were extremely religious, and were homeschooling for that
reason rather than out of concern for the quality of their childrens'
secular education. When they did send their kids to school at the
junior high level, they often couldn't read, couldn't do basic math,
didn't know what a map was, had never heard of the capital of Canada .
. .
My parents homeschooled us for one year, while they were on a deferred
salary leave and we were travelling. My youngest brother had been
having loads of trouble with math and science, and my mom made it her
priority to bring him up to speed. His grades when he entered the next
year were much better.
eliz...@yahoo.com
Bruce Bridgman and Jeanne Yang wrote:
> <eliz...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1109255108....@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > The Ranger wrote:
> >> toto <scar...@wicked.witch> wrote in message
> >> news:oqhq11heqepn4apc8...@4ax.com...
> >> > Any anecdotes?
> >>
> >> "Yeah? My child's not going to Harvard and is doing an hour in
each
> >> subject per day. He has six classes and three electives; you do
the
> >> math."
> >
> > Okay, I don't want to say that it's legitimate to do your kid's
> > homework, but if you have six subjects, an hour of homework in each
is
> > going to leave no time for anything in the child's life but
schoolwork
> > and sleep.
>
has
> things really changed that much) do schools require six classes and
three
> electives. Drop an elective or two. But even if this is the case, I
don't
> think heavy coursework is a legitimate reason for parents to do their
> children's homework.
No, I don't think so either, but notice I said "an hour of homework in
six subjects" - I wasn't even counting the electives. If a kid was
really doing six hours of homework a night, getting home 3ish from
school, that means that with eating/washing/etc. it'd be 10 PM and time
for bed with no time for anything else but homework.
I am of course assuming the parent's claim was accurate, and even in
that situation I wouldn't do my child's homework, but that doesn't seem
like a workable situation.
Beth
Melania
toto wrote:
> Any anecdotes?
>
Departmentalized exams came into our division when I was in high
school. The following essay question was on the Biology exam: "Explain
the theory of evolution." Half the kids failed the exam because they
refused to answer the question on religious grounds. Only one boy had
the sense to answer the question, and then write something along the
lines of "this is a scientific theory, but many people including myself
do not believe it, instead believing that God created the Earth." He
got full marks (his mom was a TA). Ironically, the Biology teacher was
born again, and happily taught all kinds of science with the caveat
that people were welcome not to believe, but that they should know what
they were disagreeing with.
The parents of the kids who failed (and their fellows) went on the
warpath against the school. They started accusing the teachers of being
anti-Christian, unGodly, etc, and claimed they were warping and
perverting young minds. This was probably the parents of about 20% of
the school's students (200 kids total in the school). I'm not sure if
they managed to get departmental exams axed, but as a measure of
appeasement the school reinstated a "non-denominational" prayer at the
beginning of the school day. Non-denominational Christian prayer, that
is.
The Lord's Prayer had only been removed from the school 6 or 7 years
earlier, and the family of the kid who brought it about by claiming it
violated his human rights eventually had to move because of death
threats and vandalism to their house.
Some friends and I wanted to protest the reinstatement of prayer, but
since most of us were teachers' kids our parents talked us out of
biting the hand that fed us, as it were.
The Ranger
news:1109255108....@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> The Ranger wrote:
> > an hour in each subject per day. He has six classes and
> > three electives; you do the math."
> >
> Okay, I don't want to say that it's legitimate to do your
> kid's homework, but if you have six subjects, an hour of
> homework in each is going to leave no time for anything
> in the child's life but schoolwork and sleep.
There are several options available: 1) You write notes to each teacher
quoting the district's time-limits on allowable homework allotments when
a child is given homework that he cannot complete. This might seem
flimsy and contrived but it works for many parents that do not feel
their child should be doing such make-work, college-level-consuming
homework. 2) Stop allowing the child to sign up for advanced placement
programs. If they can't keep up, then they shouldn't be in the program.
3) Remove some of the "extra" programs that are creating time-crunches.
In this case the boy was involved in dance, competition gymnastics, and
weight-training. Having a daughter-unit that was in comp-gym, I know
exactly how much time that requires.
As I said, I don't believe her man-child ever had to earn a grade in his
short life.
The Ranger
Ruth Baltopoulos
: <eliz...@yahoo.com> wrote:
: > The Ranger wrote:
: >> toto wrote:
: >> > Any anecdotes?
: >> "Yeah? My child's not going to Harvard and is doing an
hour in each
: >> subject per day. He has six classes and three
electives; you do the
: >> math."
: > Okay, I don't want to say that it's legitimate to do
your kid's
: > homework, but if you have six subjects, an hour of
homework in each is
: > going to leave no time for anything in the child's life
but schoolwork
: > and sleep.
: Then obviously something has to give - usually a class.
Rarely (or has
: things really changed that much) do schools require six
classes and three
: electives. Drop an elective or two. But even if this is
the case, I don't
: think heavy coursework is a legitimate reason for parents
to do their
: children's homework.
I have heard of this homework nightmare from others in my
town, but my teenagers must be attending a different school,
because I have *never* seen the amount of homework lamented
about <smile>, and if I had, I definitely would have
addressed it with the Superintendent and Principals. Many,
many parents have vocalized to me that they have no life in
the evenings as they sit with their children while they
do/help them with their homework <boggle!>
Here is my strategy: I provide a place for homework to be
done and access to computers. I ask if it has been
completed (sometimes). I stay in touch with the school
(PTO, Conferences, Open Houses, School Committee) and
teachers are aware that I am interested in knowing of any
challenges or foibles. The end.
I can comfortably say that I have *never* done my children's
schoolwork or projects (and in this town it is obvious who
is doing the work at functions such as the Science Fair). I
am *always* available to answer questions, brainstorm ideas,
help clear up confusing assignments, or attempt to point
them in the right direction. I refuse to make excuses for
them to their teachers, or cover for them when they have not
prioritized or managed their time correctly.
Hey, I already went through school and did all my own
homework; I am *so* not interested in another round :)
--
Ruth
eliz...@yahoo.com
Ruth Baltopoulos wrote:
> Hey, I already went through school and did all my own
> homework; I am *so* not interested in another round :)
In all honesty, I never even did *mine*, so the chance that I'm going
to do someone else's homework is very, very small.
Beth
Probert@lumbercartel.com Mark Probert
"toto" <scar...@wicked.witch> wrote in message
news:oqhq11heqepn4apc8...@4ax.com...
> Any anecdotes?
My favorite....
My wife had a parent come in for a conference. the parent spent ten minutes
aggressively questioning each and every assignment that his daughter had
been given since the beginning of the term. My wife was very upset.
A week later my wife met an old friend who was the assistant principal in
the school where this parent worked as an English teacher. He gave new
assignments based on what he learned from my wife.
Ericka Kammerer
> Here is my strategy: I provide a place for homework to be
> done and access to computers. I ask if it has been
> completed (sometimes). I stay in touch with the school
> (PTO, Conferences, Open Houses, School Committee) and
> teachers are aware that I am interested in knowing of any
> challenges or foibles. The end.
That strategy works fabulously under normal
circumstances. Under other situations, it doesn't work
out quite so well. There are nights my 4th grader comes
home with so much homework that if it happens on a day
when we have to do *anything* after school other than
eat dinner, he's up well past his bedtime to finish
it. Once he's that tired, if one of us is not sitting
with him to keep him focused, he falls asleep at his
desk. And heaven forbid you have a child with attention
issues, for whom it tends to take longer for homework
to get done in the first place and who might well require
parental attention to keep focus. And then there are
the children who are struggling with the material and
require substantial help from the parent to *teach* the
material in order for the child to be able to complete
the homework. And that's before we get to the stupid
assignments designed to create more "parental involvement"
that *require* the parent to participate--we have quite
a few of those. The instructions actually *tell* the
parent what the parent is supposed to be doing (so it's
not the child just conning the parent into doing it).
There are far too many nights when I'm wrung
out from attending to the needs of two kids' homework.
I resent that there are so many fun and educational
things we could do as a family, but our time to do
so is severely limited by the amount of homework that
is sent home. I do not see how well over an hour of
homework is appropriate in elementary school--add the
homework to the amount of time they're in school,
and many of these kids are putting in 50+ hour
weeks!
So, if you have a school that is sending home
reasonable amounts and types of homework, and is teaching
the children the material before assigning homework on
it, and your children don't have any extenuating
circumstances that make homework more challenging
than normal, I envy you. In that situation, I would
happily stay the heck out of the way while my kids
got their homework done, just as my parents did for
me. Unfortunately, I believe that the situation here
actively *UNDERMINES* children learning to be responsible
for their own homework by making it virtually impossible
for the children to take full responsibility for it.
Some years we have teachers who don't buy into the
homework overload madness, and those years are *so*
much better for us as a family--and (surprise, surprise)
the kids still manage to learn just as much or more
in those classes as the ones with mountains of homework.
Best wishes,
Ericka
eliz...@yahoo.com
The Ranger wrote:
> eliz...@yahoo.com wrote in message
> news:1109255108....@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > The Ranger wrote:
> > > "Yeah? My child's not going to Harvard and is doing
> > > an hour in each subject per day. He has six classes and
> > > three electives; you do the math."
> > >
> > Okay, I don't want to say that it's legitimate to do your
> > kid's homework, but if you have six subjects, an hour of
> > homework in each is going to leave no time for anything
> > in the child's life but schoolwork and sleep.
>
> There are several options available: 1) You write notes to each
teacher
> quoting the district's time-limits on allowable homework allotments
when
> a child is given homework that he cannot complete. This might seem
> flimsy and contrived but it works for many parents that do not feel
> their child should be doing such make-work, college-level-consuming
> homework.
Do all districts have policies like this? That *does* sound like it
would help, I just never heard of it before (my child's too young for
homework so I'm kind of clueless about how this stuff works from an
adult perspective).
Beth
Ericka Kammerer
> The Ranger wrote:
>>There are several options available: 1) You write notes to each
>> teacher
>>quoting the district's time-limits on allowable homework allotments
>> when
>>a child is given homework that he cannot complete. This might seem
>>flimsy and contrived but it works for many parents that do not feel
>>their child should be doing such make-work, college-level-consuming
>>homework.
>
>
> Do all districts have policies like this? That *does* sound like it
> would help, I just never heard of it before (my child's too young for
> homework so I'm kind of clueless about how this stuff works from an
> adult perspective).
Many districts do have homework policies. However,
having them doesn't necessarily mean they will be observed
or enforced. They do give you some leverage, though. Another
tricky bit is that it's *very* difficult to estimate how long
homework will take, and teachers/principals may have differing
takes on whether the time limit applies to the fastest child,
the slowest child, or the "average" child (whatever that might
be ;-) I think even the most well-meaning teacher trying to
adhere to the policy can have a lot of difficulty doing that
with any accuracy.
Best wishes,
Ericka
Ruth Baltopoulos
news:7-udnYiC8Pj...@comcast.com...
: That strategy works fabulously under normal
: circumstances. Under other situations, it doesn't work
: out quite so well. [...]
: So, if you have a school that is sending home
: reasonable amounts and types of homework, and is teaching
: the children the material before assigning homework on
: it, and your children don't have any extenuating
: circumstances that make homework more challenging
: than normal, I envy you. [...]
: Unfortunately, I believe that the situation here
: actively *UNDERMINES* children learning to be responsible
: for their own homework by making it virtually impossible
: for the children to take full responsibility for it.[...]
Well, that sounds horrid and I don't envy you. I guess one
of the difficult things for me was hearing many people in
the same school district lamenting a situation that I
clearly was not experiencing. I am not sure how that could
be. My children are good students and have decent study
skills, but they are not in the Gifted and Talented Program
:) I do have a problem with 'homework' that is new
material, which has happened periodically.
Is there no viable way to address such legitimate concerns
with the School District or the School Committee? If it is
clearly a serious problem across the board, is there no
recourse? Again, I don't envy the descripiton of your
situation.
--
Ruth
The Ranger
news:1109263006.8...@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
==> Using a district's policies to a parent's advantage <==
> Do all districts have policies like this?
I don't know; you'll have to check into it with the school district
where your child is attending.
The district my daughter-units currently attend, the district they
attended prior, and the high school district they will attend (if our
glorious Gužinator doesn't asset-strip the system) each have formalized
homework policies. The guidelines were a direct result of the tension
caused from incoming students from countries that use their primary and
secondary schools to winnow away those that can't from those that will
shape the future. One tool in those other systems is massive amounts of
make-work. Kids that can't keep up flunk out.
It's reaching epidemic proportions, though, and something's going to
have to give...
The Ranger
dragonlady
"Bruce Bridgman and Jeanne Yang" <bridge...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> Then obviously something has to give - usually a class. Rarely (or has
> things really changed that much) do schools require six classes and three
> electives. Drop an elective or two. But even if this is the case, I don't
> think heavy coursework is a legitimate reason for parents to do their
> children's homework.
This becomes a problem for kids whose biggest interests and talent (and
therefore most joy) is outside of the academically required classes. I
believe a well rounded education includes some music and art and
physical education, so for kids like the boy in question, who was
clearly very good at physical stuff, it does NOT seem reasonable to me
that he should have to give that up.
Frankly, an hour a day per class of homework is just wrong. Even if you
are only taking 4 classes, if you get home at 3:00 in the afternoon, and
spend, say, an hour eating dinner with your family and doing some
household chores, you will not be done with your homework until 8:00.
That leaves no time for sports, or theater, or any of the other things
that might make a life more well rounded.
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care
dragonlady
"Jen" <jennife...@rogers.com.REMOVE.ME> wrote:
The only time I can remember my mother challenging a grade she did it in
private. My certifiably brilliant baby brother worked hard to maintain
a B+ average (seriously -- he didn't want the hassle of extra work he'd
get if he got labled Really Smart). He brought home an essay with a
"C", and Mom went in to ask the teacher why it was a C paper. The
teacher told her it wasn't -- it was a solid "B" paper, but since he was
capable of "A"s, she marked it down to a "C".
Mom pitched a fit, and insisted he be given the grade he'd earned rather
than a grade based on the teacher's annoyance. She won.
(He eventually fitured out what he wanted to do with his life, has an
MBA from Kellogg, and makes more money than God doing work he enjoys.)
dragonlady
"The Ranger" <cuhula...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> The district my daughter-units currently attend, the district they
> attended prior, and the high school district they will attend (if our
> glorious Gužinator doesn't asset-strip the system)
California's education system has assets left to strip?
Ericka Kammerer
> Is there no viable way to address such legitimate concerns
> with the School District or the School Committee? If it is
> clearly a serious problem across the board, is there no
> recourse? Again, I don't envy the descripiton of your
> situation.
It's difficult to address right now because it's
so variable. This year, my 2nd grader has a fabulous
teacher and his hasn't been a problem. I hardly know
he *has* homework--he just does it ;-) My 4th grader
has a teacher I like very much, but I think she's
somewhat scatterbrained about the homework. I don't
think she *means* to overwhelm the kids, but it
happens anyway. I think what happens is that she has
a "normal" homework schedule that is just a bit on the
high side, but nothing I'd make a stink over if most
weeks were "normal" weeks. But what happens in reality
is that there's an ongoing parade of little things that
bring extra assignments (long term projects, things assigned
by special teachers, makeups for classwork that was pre-empted
by assemblies/special events, etc.) or other things that
muck with the schedule. I think she also isn't the best
at estimating how long it will take for homework. She
seems to think that math homework will take a long time,
but everything else won't take long at all. I don't think
many 4th graders can write a clean draft of a five paragraph
essay from scratch in 15-20 minutes (which I assume is what
she's estimating, given that she thinks a half hour of reading,
an essay, and a couple of math worksheets can be done in
an hour). So, several of us parents raise the issue now
and again, and it usually results in her being more careful
for a bit, but then the homework level creeps back up again.
We all like her so much we don't really want to nag her
about it, and we don't want to go over her head to the
principal, but we also don't want our lives to be consumed
by homework... I could make a stink with the principal
and it would likely do some good (we have a fabulous principal),
but it just doesn't seem warranted in this situation. I have
talked to him about homework in past situations with some
benefit.
And then there's the issue of activities. Our
schedule is such that our kids have at least an uninterrupted
hour every school day to do homework, plus additional time
for reading. For me to schedule more than that (and still
maintain the bedtimes my kids need to be civilized human
beings ;-) would mean absolutely no activities during the
week. My kids love the things they do, and I don't think
it's excessive (well, except during Nutcracker season ;-)
and it doesn't seem reasonable to me to deny them their
activities just to make sure that they can devote two or
three hours to homework every night when they won't actually
*have* that much every night. We've discussed the possibility
of having homework assigned on a weekly basis so they can
work ahead the nights they have more time, but the teachers
don't want to do that (for assorted reasons, some of which
make some sense and others of which just seem crazy to me).
We do have them work ahead on some things that they know
will be coming with some regularity.
Anyway, this year isn't as bad as some have been,
so we're mostly managing. Last year was pretty bad. I'm
a little afraid of next year, because 3rd grade is pretty
tough and I've heard rumors that the 5th grade teachers
are heavier on the homework. Also, in 5th grade DS1 will
go back to having different teachers for language arts,
math, and science, and there's ample opportunity for
lack of communication among all the teachers to result
in mountains of homework on some nights.
We try to find some sort of balance, but it is
often frustrating. I just wish there wasn't this
culture of "more homework = better education" fueling
this whole thing. It would make things a lot easier.
Best wishes,
Ericka
Tori M.
science and in math but when I complained to the teacher about not
understanding (mostly the science teacher) I was told that I was not trying
hard enough and the proof was I did not do the homework.. Well I did not do
the homework because I did not understand it. My mom never went in to
complain though as I sported low grades in most other classes.. Funny my
low grade in Algebra went from a f to a b average after I got a tutor that
spent 2 days a week explaining it to me! I refused to take math and science
my senior year because I did not want to spend yet enouther year trying to
figure out what in the world they are talking about.
We are going to homeschool but Jeff is taking over math and science at at
least High School.. Maybe Jr High.
Tori
--
Bonnie 3/02
Xavier 10/04
"toto" <scar...@wicked.witch> wrote in message
news:oqhq11heqepn4apc8...@4ax.com...
> Any anecdotes?
>
> There is no sound, no cry in all the world
> that can be heard unless someone listens ..
>
> The Outer Limits
Stephanie Stowe
>
>
>> Here is my strategy: I provide a place for homework to be done and
>> access to computers. I ask if it has been completed (sometimes). I stay
>> in touch with the school (PTO, Conferences, Open Houses, School
>> Committee) and teachers are aware that I am interested in knowing of any
>> challenges or foibles. The end.
>
> That strategy works fabulously under normal
> circumstances. Under other situations, it doesn't work
> out quite so well. There are nights my 4th grader comes
> home with so much homework that if it happens on a day
> when we have to do *anything* after school other than
> eat dinner, he's up well past his bedtime to finish
> it.
You guys, stop! I am having these nightmare images of me having regular
pitched battles about homework volumes and generally making the entire
school miserable with my opinion. Can I have my son stay 4 and DD stay 16mo?
*sigh* I guess that would not work. I may not read this thread though
because I want to get all fired up.
> Once he's that tired, if one of us is not sitting
> with him to keep him focused, he falls asleep at his
> desk.
See that's wrong. If a kids gets to here in the normal course events (vs
blowing off homework all day) then that is just too much.
> And heaven forbid you have a child with attention
> issues, for whom it tends to take longer for homework
> to get done in the first place and who might well require
> parental attention to keep focus. And then there are
> the children who are struggling with the material and
> require substantial help from the parent to *teach* the
> material in order for the child to be able to complete
> the homework. And that's before we get to the stupid
> assignments designed to create more "parental involvement"
> that *require* the parent to participate--we have quite
> a few of those.
What classes / ages does this occur in? Why does this occur, I wonder. As
in, what is the teacher hoping to gain?
Does this kind of thing get discussed at PTA meetings? If so, is it at all
effective? (This is a general question to anyone.) I do not get the warm
fuzzies about the effectiveness of PTA in a lot of places. It sounds more
like a combat zone than a meeting of the minds.
Stephanie Stowe
Off the wall curiosity question here.... What would happen if you determined
what *you* considered a reasonable amount of time, set the timer for that
amount of time, and called it quits after that? This is assuming your child
will give best effort for this amount of time. What are grades based on? If
it is clear from the tests that the material is being aqcuired then what is
the purpose of the homework? Is it an end in itself? I have always thought
of homework as exercise, but I get the impression that a lot of what my
nephews did was busy work to make a teacher happy. Of course, I got this
impression from the nephews whose points of view may have been a bit
distorted.
Ericka Kammerer
>>And that's before we get to the stupid
>>assignments designed to create more "parental involvement"
>>that *require* the parent to participate--we have quite
>>a few of those.
>
> What classes / ages does this occur in?
Oh, it can start in kindy, depending on how things go
in your area.
> Why does this occur, I wonder. As
> in, what is the teacher hoping to gain?
Well, there's a lot of research suggesting that
parental involvement is important, and I'm sure a lot
of teachers encounter parents who aren't involved at
all (or are even resistant to being involved). Sometimes
I think the point is to do something fun that is too
involved for the child to do on his or her own.
Sometimes it's because it's a touchy subject. For
example, health homework often involves the parent,
probably because they don't want any parents going
ballistic about the school "sneaking in" controversial
subjects like smoking/drugs/alcohol avoidance, etc.
I imagine that most of the reasons this sort of
homework happens are pretty benign, but sometimes
it's exasperating when there's a lot of it. We're
*already* very involved in our kids' education, and
we have a lot of things we'd like to *add* to what's
being done in school, so too much homework like this
just ties our hands more than anything else.
> Does this kind of thing get discussed at PTA meetings?
It certainly can be.
> If so, is it at all effective?
In our case, it really isn't a PTA issue. The school
has a pretty reasonable homework policy (10 min/night/grade
level, Monday through Thursday). The problem is that it
doesn't always work out according to policy. Sometimes it's
a rogue teacher who has no intention of respecting the
policy, in which case bringing in the principal is a pretty
effective option, but much of the time it's just creeping
featurism, or difficulty predicting just how long the work
actually takes, or other more benign things that indirectly
result in a difficult homework load.
> (This is a general question to anyone.) I do not get the warm
> fuzzies about the effectiveness of PTA in a lot of places. It sounds more
> like a combat zone than a meeting of the minds.
Our PTA is a pretty warm and friendly group, and
they're very effective at the stuff they do. This would
be more of an administrative issue, though. If the school
or district policy was inappropriate, the PTA could perhaps
get up a head of steam to advocate for something better,
but that hasn't been an issue for us.
Best wishes,
Ericka
Stephanie Stowe
> Stephanie Stowe wrote:
>
>
>>>And that's before we get to the stupid
>>>assignments designed to create more "parental involvement"
>>>that *require* the parent to participate--we have quite
>>>a few of those.
>>
>> What classes / ages does this occur in?
>
> Oh, it can start in kindy, depending on how things go
> in your area.
>
>> Why does this occur, I wonder. As in, what is the teacher hoping to gain?
>
> Well, there's a lot of research suggesting that
> parental involvement is important, and I'm sure a lot
> of teachers encounter parents who aren't involved at
> all (or are even resistant to being involved).
I am sure this is true. And it is sad. But I would hardly call it the
teachers' responsibility to enforce parental involvement. I think this might
be something I would choose to discuss, though how is that for a catch-22?
Trying to get out of involvement with your child sure would not look good!
> Sometimes
> I think the point is to do something fun that is too
> involved for the child to do on his or her own.
> Sometimes it's because it's a touchy subject. For
> example, health homework often involves the parent,
Ooo I forgot about health class. I went to Catholic schools This whole issue
was avoided by not *having* any kind of health education. My parents had to
sign a slip at intervals saying "I have taught my child what I want them to
know."
Clisby
Stephanie Stowe wrote:
> "Ericka Kammerer" <e...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:7-udnYiC8Pj...@comcast.com...
>
>>Ruth Baltopoulos wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Here is my strategy: I provide a place for homework to be done and
>>>access to computers. I ask if it has been completed (sometimes). I stay
>>>in touch with the school (PTO, Conferences, Open Houses, School
>>>Committee) and teachers are aware that I am interested in knowing of any
>>>challenges or foibles. The end.
>>
>>That strategy works fabulously under normal
>>circumstances. Under other situations, it doesn't work
>>out quite so well. There are nights my 4th grader comes
>>home with so much homework that if it happens on a day
>>when we have to do *anything* after school other than
>>eat dinner, he's up well past his bedtime to finish
>>it.
>
>
>
> You guys, stop! I am having these nightmare images of me having regular
> pitched battles about homework volumes and generally making the entire
> school miserable with my opinion. Can I have my son stay 4 and DD stay 16mo?
> *sigh* I guess that would not work. I may not read this thread though
> because I want to get all fired up.
>
>
I think this must vary wildly from place to place.
My 3rd-grader rarely has even a half hour of homework.
This is in a public school. From kindergarten through mid-3rd grade,
she was in a private school, and had more homework; but at the start of
3rd grade she was getting an hour of homework, tops - and that included
reading whatever book she was currently assigned.
Neither school required parental involvement in the homework. The most
I do now is to review her math homework, because I'm trying to drill
into her head that it's a good idea to show your work when you're doing
several-step word problems.
Clisby
Ericka Kammerer
> Off the wall curiosity question here.... What would happen if you determined
> what *you* considered a reasonable amount of time, set the timer for that
> amount of time, and called it quits after that?
Bless his heart, that's exactly what my DS2's teacher does
for math--they're to do 15 minutes of work. What isn't done after
15 minutes just doesn't get done. He evaluates both the accuracy
and amount of what's completed to get a bead on how well the
students understand the material. Fabulous. Love it.
> This is assuming your child
> will give best effort for this amount of time. What are grades based on? If
> it is clear from the tests that the material is being aqcuired then what is
> the purpose of the homework? Is it an end in itself?
I think how it's viewed depends on the teacher. In my
experience, the teachers who deliberately give a lot of homework
are True Believers. They believe that regular significant amounts
of homework will teach children to be responsible, to have a good
work ethic, to develop good study habits, etc. etc. etc. They
view not completing the homework as a character flaw, and see
any parent who isn't on board with the program as insufficiently
interested in a quality education for the child. Other teachers
can be more amenable to various strategies, but this one can be
a bit tricky. It can appear pretty unfair to other kids who
are doing the homework until it's done, whatever that takes.
Best wishes,
Ericka
Bruce Bridgman and Jeanne Yang
> would help, I just never heard of it before (my child's too young for
> homework so I'm kind of clueless about how this stuff works from an
> adult perspective).
>
> Beth
>
take, but that doesn't necessarily mean the teachers assign homework
accordingly. Its purpose seems more to inform parents what to expect as
typical rather than a hard and fast rule.
That said, DD (second grade) has homework every night. In theory, a second
grader should be able to do it within 20 minutes. She usually gets one math
worksheet - 5 minutes tops (even if it's two pages). Spelling ideally would
take 5 to 10 minutes. Unfortunately, she's a weak speller so if she needs
to write sentences she usually has three or four re-writes before she gets
all the words written correctly (not just the spelling words, *all* the
words). So, that drags the time out to 45 minutes or longer.
This isn't the teacher's fault and it isn't DD's fault. It's just the way
things are. Do I wish homework went more smoothly? Sure. But for now, her
outside activities are limited because she really needs to concentrate on
her schoolwork.
I was told that third grade is even worse. Why? Testing. The state test
third graders so the students get more homework. I'm not looking forward to
next year.
Jeanne
Stephanie Stowe
Let me ask you this philosophical question from *your* opinion. What is your
child's math teacher's responsibility to your child regarding work ethic,
responsibility and whatnot as a primary goal? There is a need to assume that
the child has a degree of responsibility in order to achieve math skills.
But I think that a child's math teacher should be primarily focused on
achievement in math. Perhaps I am nuts.
Ericka Kammerer
> That said, DD (second grade) has homework every night. In theory, a second
> grader should be able to do it within 20 minutes. She usually gets one math
> worksheet - 5 minutes tops (even if it's two pages). Spelling ideally would
> take 5 to 10 minutes. Unfortunately, she's a weak speller so if she needs
> to write sentences she usually has three or four re-writes before she gets
> all the words written correctly (not just the spelling words, *all* the
> words). So, that drags the time out to 45 minutes or longer.
>
> This isn't the teacher's fault and it isn't DD's fault. It's just the way
> things are. Do I wish homework went more smoothly? Sure. But for now, her
> outside activities are limited because she really needs to concentrate on
> her schoolwork.
But you know, it is not reasonable to assign homework
based on how quickly the best student, or the theoretical student
with no weak areas, can get it done. That leaves *most* students
in a bad way, because most will have *some* area in which they
are challenged.
Still, even with the best of planning and intentions,
there are situations like your daughter's. In that case, what
we do is try to work things out with the teacher to be able to
anticipate the "bad" days and plan for them in advance. E.g.,
if Thursday night is routinely the write-sentences-with-the-
spelling-words night, we'd ask to get the spelling words the
Friday before so we could do some of the sentences over the
weekend, or at least do a couple sentences a night to relieve
the pressure on Thursday night. Unfortunately, that doesn't
work with all sorts of homework.
Personally, I don't believe the solution to a child
who is struggling in one area or another is to just decide
that the child should do nothing but schoolwork for a while.
I *do* agree that such a student will probably have to spend
more time, but it's easy to get into a vicious cycle where
there's too much time spent doing frustrating homework compounded
by a lack of physical exercise and activities (whether structured
or just hanging out with the family or whatever) that bring
joy. Pretty soon you get a bad attitude going, which makes
the learning more difficult, and suddenly you have a bigger
problem than ever. Somehow, one has to keep struggling towards
some kind of balance where the child is learning but isn't
overwhelmed with it.
Best wishes,
Ericka
Ericka Kammerer
> "Ericka Kammerer" <e...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:7NednTaudtm...@comcast.com...
>
>>I think how it's viewed depends on the teacher. In my
>>experience, the teachers who deliberately give a lot of homework
>>are True Believers. They believe that regular significant amounts
>>of homework will teach children to be responsible, to have a good
>>work ethic, to develop good study habits, etc. etc. etc. They
>>view not completing the homework as a character flaw, and see
>>any parent who isn't on board with the program as insufficiently
>>interested in a quality education for the child. Other teachers
>>can be more amenable to various strategies, but this one can be
>>a bit tricky. It can appear pretty unfair to other kids who
>>are doing the homework until it's done, whatever that takes.
>
> Let me ask you this philosophical question from *your* opinion. What is your
> child's math teacher's responsibility to your child regarding work ethic,
> responsibility and whatnot as a primary goal? There is a need to assume that
> the child has a degree of responsibility in order to achieve math skills.
> But I think that a child's math teacher should be primarily focused on
> achievement in math. Perhaps I am nuts.
Hmmm...it depends. In general, my personal opinion is that
I'd be happy as a clam if my child's math teacher focused on
achievement in math. But then again, achievement doesn't exist
in a vacuum. Both my sons are long on math skills, and math
is a much more black and white area in terms of achievement.
Personally, I think if my kid can ace the pretest for a math
unit, he should either be able to work on the next unit, or
he certainly shouldn't have to be doing all the homework for
the current unit. With something like writing, it's murkier.
Kids need to write to become good at it, and it's always
possible for their writing to get better. Kids who have
difficulty writing will probably take a very long time to
do it. All the stuff I've read on helping kids with writing
involves giving plenty of time to use an iterative process,
with breaks in between, to work up to a clean draft. Well,
how the heck am I supposed to do that if there's only one
night to produce a clean draft of an essay?
Whoops, I digressed a bit there. Anyway, yes, I'd
rather they focused on achievement, but doing so leads to
some challenges, I think. For instance, what do you do
about the child who puts in more than enough time but
doesn't achieve? Having graded homework at least gives
that child some credit for effort. And I don't think it's
unreasonable for teachers to have some concerns about
children developing some study skills. But, like I said
before, if you are a true believer that lots of regular
homework results in better outcomes (and you could scrape
up some research that makes it appear that way), you're likely
to see lots of regular homework as a goal in and of itself.
Best wishes,
Ericka
Stephanie Stowe
Which is all true and fine but has nothing to do with my objection, which is
about a writing (or math or whatever) *focusing* on responsibility and work
ethic "skills."
> All the stuff I've read on helping kids with writing
> involves giving plenty of time to use an iterative process,
> with breaks in between, to work up to a clean draft. Well,
> how the heck am I supposed to do that if there's only one
> night to produce a clean draft of an essay?
> Whoops, I digressed a bit there. Anyway, yes, I'd
> rather they focused on achievement, but doing so leads to
> some challenges, I think. For instance, what do you do
> about the child who puts in more than enough time but
> doesn't achieve? Having graded homework at least gives
> that child some credit for effort.
What is the purpose of the credit? I am a very goal oriented person... to a
fault. But conversations and assessments about education get of point a lot
IMO. My thought is that the point of education is acquisition of skills and
knowledge. Grades are intended to measure progress in the aqcuisition of
said skills and knowledge. Homework is supposed to be the exercise that
reinforces the skill or knowledge. But far too often, the grade or the
homework becomes the end in itself. Since the grade is important to future
endeavors, like what college you will get into, it is very important. But
what is it, in itself, but a measurement of the skill and/or knowledge for
which the grade is received, no matter what it took to get there.
What I am trying to say is that people get confused about what it is we are
attempting to achieve, not the least some of the teachers I have spoke too.
They get caught up in the barrage of legislation and regulation with which
they have to comply and all the varying details of a stressful job and
forget to keep their eye on the prize. And parents forget Big Time too. They
are so concerned with Bobby's grade, that they forget to be concerned with
what Bobby's grade is *for* to give some kind of measure of where he is at
with the skills.
Every child has gifts and talents. Some kids, like I was in school, is never
going to have to work for an A in math. But I still got A's. What is that A
for? Or more to the point, what is that A supposed to be for? In
kindergarten, first grade ... to something, you do not want to kill off
interest in learning. You certainly never wan to cripple self esteem. But
self esteem ultimately comes from acheivement, not A's. My A's in school
were never much of a source of self esteem for me. So at some point, you
stop getting letter grades for trying. Or at least, in my world view, you
do. I am not sure what point that is.
My point is twofold. First, We, teachers, parents, society all lose site of
the prize - well rounded, knowledgeble people who can take their place in
the workforce, democracy and family with self assurance, critical thinking
and ... all that. We get hyper focused on the wrong things. Not did little
Genny learn how to complete the square, but did little Genny get a good
enough grade?
Second, the grades should not be an end in itself. There is a whole system
of checks and balances to ensure that it *does* remain the end in itself,
and that is doing a disservice to our kids.
(Should I tell you exactly what I think of No Child Left Behind? Probably
not.)
> And I don't think it's
> unreasonable for teachers to have some concerns about
> children developing some study skills.
Well, I guess it is nice. But that's my job. :)
> But, like I said
> before, if you are a true believer that lots of regular
> homework results in better outcomes (and you could scrape
> up some research that makes it appear that way), you're likely
> to see lots of regular homework as a goal in and of itself.
>
And that would be bad IMO. It should not be a goal to itself. It should be a
means to an end only. But I am an unreasonable purist!
> Best wishes,
> Ericka
>
Ericka Kammerer
> Which is all true and fine but has nothing to do with my objection, which is
> about a writing (or math or whatever) *focusing* on responsibility and work
> ethic "skills."
It's not that they give assignments about teaching
responsibility or work ethic. They just tend to believe it's
a happy virtuous cycle where significant regular homework
Makes Everything Better, including acquisition of skills.
>>For instance, what do you do
>>about the child who puts in more than enough time but
>>doesn't achieve? Having graded homework at least gives
>>that child some credit for effort.
>
> What is the purpose of the credit?
To keep a kid whose trying hard from having poor
grades? To provide some reward for effort to avoid discouragement?
To keep the parents off the teacher's back? I suppose there
could be lots of explanations.
> I am a very goal oriented person... to a
> fault. But conversations and assessments about education get of point a lot
> IMO. My thought is that the point of education is acquisition of skills and
> knowledge. Grades are intended to measure progress in the aqcuisition of
> said skills and knowledge.
Oh, but they get used for so much more, willy nilly.
> Homework is supposed to be the exercise that
> reinforces the skill or knowledge. But far too often, the grade or the
> homework becomes the end in itself. Since the grade is important to future
> endeavors, like what college you will get into, it is very important. But
> what is it, in itself, but a measurement of the skill and/or knowledge for
> which the grade is received, no matter what it took to get there.
I suspect that with this approach, you'll find school
very frustrating ;-) I have a lot of sympathy for your position,
though I think that it works better in theory than in practice
at the grade school level.
> What I am trying to say is that people get confused about what it is we are
> attempting to achieve, not the least some of the teachers I have spoke too.
> They get caught up in the barrage of legislation and regulation with which
> they have to comply and all the varying details of a stressful job and
> forget to keep their eye on the prize.
True of some, but in many cases it's not that they're
*forgetting*. They're very much keeping their eyes on the ball
that the state and the school district (among others) have told
them is more important. They don't haver to agree with that
philosophy to understand that their job may depend on their
implementing it. Again, lots of individual/school/district/
state variation.
> And parents forget Big Time too. They
> are so concerned with Bobby's grade, that they forget to be concerned with
> what Bobby's grade is *for* to give some kind of measure of where he is at
> with the skills.
Sure, there are lots of parents who are only concerned
that their little darling get the right grade. Lots more are
concerned with what their child is actually learning, though
(at least in my experience, which may not be representative).
> Every child has gifts and talents. Some kids, like I was in school, is never
> going to have to work for an A in math. But I still got A's. What is that A
> for? Or more to the point, what is that A supposed to be for? In
> kindergarten, first grade ... to something, you do not want to kill off
> interest in learning. You certainly never wan to cripple self esteem. But
> self esteem ultimately comes from acheivement, not A's. My A's in school
> were never much of a source of self esteem for me.
Well, it's a lot easier not to get too full of yourself
for getting A's than it is not to feel like a personal failure
for getting F's ;-)
> So at some point, you
> stop getting letter grades for trying. Or at least, in my world view, you
> do. I am not sure what point that is.
Sure. The schools in our area phase out effort grades
gradually.
> My point is twofold. First, We, teachers, parents, society all lose site of
> the prize - well rounded, knowledgeble people who can take their place in
> the workforce, democracy and family with self assurance, critical thinking
> and ... all that. We get hyper focused on the wrong things. Not did little
> Genny learn how to complete the square, but did little Genny get a good
> enough grade?
Well, but in a perfect world, is Genny's grade not supposed
to be an indicator of how well she learned to complete the square? ;-)
In that case, it ought to be a pretty good proxy. Alas, this is
not a perfect world, especially when dealing with little kids. One
could question whether grades are even necessary to this end.
> (Should I tell you exactly what I think of No Child Left Behind? Probably
> not.)
Well, I doubt you can despise it as much as I do ;-)
Best wishes,
Ericka
>
>
>
shinypenny
This is my approach too.
We only ever had one time that too-much homework was an issue:
kindergarten!!!
The amount of homework was mind-boggling. It would take up to two hours
a night, and that's *with* parent's help. Many a night I'd be pulling
my hair out, wishing DD would get through it already so I could give
her younger sister some attention, not to mention, get dinner on the
table. I was tempted to do it for her and be done with it so we could
have an enjoyable evening. Also, since DD struggled so much with it, I
felt it was doing more harm than good. Her enthusiasm for school was
quickly slipping lower and lower.
At the first round of parent-teacher conferences, I wasn't the only one
to complain about this. Immediately after, the K teacher announced a
new policy: she'd continue sending home the same amount of homework,
that parents were NOT supposed to help, and the children need only sit
down and work on the packet for 15 minutes - no longer. Whatever they
accomplished in that time was fine. Parents initialed it after the end
of 15 minutes. The goal was to instill good study habits, and that was
it.
Phew. What a difference that made! We've never had an issue since.
Today the kids do have a lot of homework (the amount has grown as
they've gone through the grades), but they usually get it all done at
afterschool before playing.
jen
Stephanie Stowe
Trust me, of this I have No Doubt Whatsoever! :)
Banty
Tried that. Ran into an interesting problem.
It's *MY SON* who is too contientious for that - he can't just up from homework
undone and turn it in unfinished, even with a note from me.
And I sure wasn't going to try to override what really is a fantastic inborn
trait. (He's 12 - hope it stays that way...)
Banty
Banty
>
>"Ericka Kammerer" <e...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>news:7-udnYiC8Pj...@comcast.com...
>
>: That strategy works fabulously under normal
>: circumstances. Under other situations, it doesn't work
>: out quite so well. [...]
>: So, if you have a school that is sending home
>: reasonable amounts and types of homework, and is teaching
>: the children the material before assigning homework on
>: it, and your children don't have any extenuating
>: circumstances that make homework more challenging
>: than normal, I envy you. [...]
>: Unfortunately, I believe that the situation here
>: actively *UNDERMINES* children learning to be responsible
>: for their own homework by making it virtually impossible
>: for the children to take full responsibility for it.[...]
>
>Well, that sounds horrid and I don't envy you. I guess one
>of the difficult things for me was hearing many people in
>the same school district lamenting a situation that I
>clearly was not experiencing. I am not sure how that could
>be. My children are good students and have decent study
>skills, but they are not in the Gifted and Talented Program
>:) I do have a problem with 'homework' that is new
>material, which has happened periodically.
I've had mixed experiences with my son's homework. He's now in seventh grade.
He's not great at writing, although it's gotten *much* better. However, we have
had many an evening where he was completely tied up with a writing assignment,
and the teachers (in 6th grade he had *both* English and Reading as separate
classes) would tell me it's about 1/2 hours' work. I would look at it, and
guess about 15 minutes for *me* to do it. But my son would struggle for a
couple of hours. And, yes, the environment is good - lighting, no distractions,
I'm nearby if needed, yadda yadda (and I sure got tired of the teachers asking).
His other subjects would be assigned too, all coordinated with this 1/2 hours'
work that writing was supposed to take.
The other problem was that Weekends Were Sacred. No homework on weekends, when
our schedule was more relaxed and things like writing could be broken up and
made more pleasant. It was all stacked onto Mon. - Thur. AND Scouts had to be
some night Mon. - Thur. AND band rehersals and concerts had to be some night
Mon. Thur. The after school program was iffy regarding homework time and
environment, so we'd often have four overstuffed evenings, a real tired kid on
Fridays, and lots of free time on weekends. Well bully for the weekend, and we
would always plan bigger homework projects for then, but didn't make sense for
our family and it made school kind of miserable.
*Some* teachers are amenable to giving assignments due Tuesday or Wednesday the
previous Friday, most aren't.
Seventh grade, amazingly, has involved much less homework. What gives?
>
>Is there no viable way to address such legitimate concerns
>with the School District or the School Committee? If it is
>clearly a serious problem across the board, is there no
>recourse? Again, I don't envy the descripiton of your
>situation.
What!!?! - bring up something 'touchy' at our PTA that doesn't involve either
fundraising or parent-run reading programs??!? How dare you!!
Banty
Ericka Kammerer
> Tried that. Ran into an interesting problem.
>
> It's *MY SON* who is too contientious for that - he can't just up from homework
> undone and turn it in unfinished, even with a note from me.
>
> And I sure wasn't going to try to override what really is a fantastic inborn
> trait. (He's 12 - hope it stays that way...)
Yeah, that too. I think many kids feel that way. The
few times I've told my son that it was just too late and he needed
to go to bed and I would explain to his teacher that he worked
plenty hard for plenty of hours before stopping, he was *extremely*
upset at the notion of not finishing his homework.
Best wishes,
Ericka
Ericka Kammerer
> The other problem was that Weekends Were Sacred. No homework on weekends, when
> our schedule was more relaxed and things like writing could be broken up and
> made more pleasant. It was all stacked onto Mon. - Thur. AND Scouts had to be
> some night Mon. - Thur. AND band rehersals and concerts had to be some night
> Mon. Thur. The after school program was iffy regarding homework time and
> environment, so we'd often have four overstuffed evenings, a real tired kid on
> Fridays, and lots of free time on weekends. Well bully for the weekend, and we
> would always plan bigger homework projects for then, but didn't make sense for
> our family and it made school kind of miserable.
Yeah, this bugs me too. Why do they assume that Quality Family
Time or Quality Recreational Activities only happen on the weekend?
There are lots of activities--those you mention, among others--where
the individual family has very little impact on scheduling, so it's
not as if everyone *could* do their stuff on weekends if only they'd
plan better. I would love to be able to use the weekend better to
deal with those dreaded writing assignments. I've *finally* gotten
DS1 to the point that he usually brings home his vocabulary workbook
to do the Dreaded Section E (the one that requires more writing)
over the weekend rather than waiting until it's assigned on Thursday
night when he has his piano lesson.
Best wishes,
Ericka
shinypenny
Ericka Kammerer wrote:
> That strategy works fabulously under normal
> circumstances. Under other situations, it doesn't work
> home with so much homework that if it happens on a day
> when we have to do *anything* after school other than
> eat dinner, he's up well past his bedtime to finish
> it.
What hour does he get home? Trying to place this in context, to get an
idea how much homework you're dealing with compared to what my kids are
dealing with.
Because my kids go to afterschool, they don't get home until 6:00. They
do their homework at afterschool. For DD12, in 6th grade, she spends
pretty much the entire time (2-1/2 hours) doing homework. DD10, in 5th,
tends to spend about an hour, some days more; it varies but she's
almost always done before I pick her up.
DD12 might have more homework to do at home, and will do this while I'm
making dinner. After dinner, she will often have me sit and quiz her
for tests, but that takes only 20 minutes or so. DD10 rarely needs to
do any more in the evenings, although on occasion there is a project
requiring parental involvement (usually something internet- or
computer-related), but this is maybe once a month, tops. Both then read
for at least 30 minutes each night. Both will have homework on the
weekends, and that amount varies.
> Once he's that tired, if one of us is not sitting
> with him to keep him focused, he falls asleep at his
> desk.
DD10 is always exhausted by the time she gets home at 6. She gets very
cranky, too. If for some reason she couldn't get her homework done at
afterschool (there was a field trip, for example), then we're in big
trouble, because like you're son, she is just too tired to focus.
We've found it helps to forget the homework until the morning. I
encourage an earlier bedtime, and have her set her alarm earlier than
normal. Then when she is fresh, she gets up and jumps right in to her
homework before school. Works well! She is most definetly a morning
person.
> And heaven forbid you have a child with attention
> issues, for whom it tends to take longer for homework
> to get done in the first place and who might well require
> parental attention to keep focus.
Luckily not dealing with this, but I can see how that would be a
challenge.
> And then there are
> the children who are struggling with the material and
> require substantial help from the parent to *teach* the
> material in order for the child to be able to complete
> the homework.
When my DD10 was struggling a few years ago because she had a reading
delay, I requested that the teacher cut back her homework to a more
reasonable amount for her. Nobody wanted her to get more and more
discouraged. She was behind because of her reading delay, but after two
years of reading help, she has fully caught up and can now easily
handle the normal workload.
> And that's before we get to the stupid
> assignments designed to create more "parental involvement"
> that *require* the parent to participate--we have quite
> a few of those. The instructions actually *tell* the
> parent what the parent is supposed to be doing (so it's
> not the child just conning the parent into doing it).
Yeah. We had a maddening amount of this in K and 1st, and then it
tapered off gradually as they progressed through the grades. Nothing
for DD12 like this anymore; only a little for DD10.
> There are far too many nights when I'm wrung
> out from attending to the needs of two kids' homework.
> I resent that there are so many fun and educational
> things we could do as a family, but our time to do
> so is severely limited by the amount of homework that
> is sent home.
Yes. I agree with this too. Family time is important, and it's not
always about doing homework.
There have been times I've sent in a note excusing the kids from
finishing their homework (most, but not all, would be done) because we
felt it was a bigger priority to attend a fun and educational family
event instead. Usually, I find a way to assign "homework" of my own to
these events. For example, if we go to an art gallery, I'll have them
write a few paragraphs about what the art meant to them, and I'll have
them submit it along with their homework note. I've never had a
teacher complain yet.
But mostly, I tell the girls that if they can get it all done at
afterschool, we don't have to make that choice in the evenings. The
goal is to have evenings relatively clear of school work - so ALL of us
can relax.
> I do not see how well over an hour of
> homework is appropriate in elementary school--add the
> homework to the amount of time they're in school,
> and many of these kids are putting in 50+ hour
> weeks!
I don't ever remember having ANY homework until I hit junior high. The
world has certainly changed. But, I have come to believe it's not such
a bad thing. I am amazed that my kids can handle it, and amazed at how
much they know at this age, compared to what I knew at that age!!
> So, if you have a school that is sending home
> reasonable amounts and types of homework, and is teaching
> the children the material before assigning homework on
> it, and your children don't have any extenuating
> circumstances that make homework more challenging
> than normal, I envy you. In that situation, I would
> happily stay the heck out of the way while my kids
> got their homework done, just as my parents did for
> me. Unfortunately, I believe that the situation here
> actively *UNDERMINES* children learning to be responsible
> for their own homework by making it virtually impossible
> for the children to take full responsibility for it.
In that case, yes, I agree, it IS too much homework. There definetly
needs to be a balance, because the goal is not to undermine the
children from learning to take responsibility for it. In our district,
parental involvement tapers off until 5th grade, and by 6th they are
completely on their own.
> Some years we have teachers who don't buy into the
> homework overload madness, and those years are *so*
> much better for us as a family--and (surprise, surprise)
> the kids still manage to learn just as much or more
> in those classes as the ones with mountains of homework.
Yes, I didn't do so bad despite no homework (although maybe my grammar
would be better if I had more). :-)
jen
shinypenny
Ericka Kammerer wrote:
> Many districts do have homework policies. However,
> having them doesn't necessarily mean they will be observed
> or enforced. They do give you some leverage, though. Another
> tricky bit is that it's *very* difficult to estimate how long
> homework will take, and teachers/principals may have differing
> takes on whether the time limit applies to the fastest child,
> the slowest child, or the "average" child (whatever that might
> be ;-) I think even the most well-meaning teacher trying to
> adhere to the policy can have a lot of difficulty doing that
> with any accuracy.
That's why I like our grade school's policy: the set a limit on how
much time the child should spend each day on homework, depending on the
age of the child. For K, for example, it was no more than 15 minutes.
By 5th that increases to one hour. Whatever the child completes in that
time, fine. The goal is not necessarily to finish it, but rather to
instill good study habits and get in the routine. Parents initial the
work - even if it's a blank page because the child sat there and
daydreamed or whatever.
How much the child finishes in that allotted time gives the teachers a
good idea about whether the child is struggling and needs more help,
may have attention issues, or needs additional challenges because the
homework is too easy, etc.
jen
Stephanie Stowe
"Banty" <Banty_...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:cvlbv...@drn.newsguy.com...
No WAY!!! I am with you there. It is my bad for assuming that just because I
never did any homework that everyone was trying to get out of it.
> Banty
>
Ericka Kammerer
> What hour does he get home?
Home at 3:30pm (12:30pm on Mondays), bedtime at 8:00pm.
> Trying to place this in context, to get an
> idea how much homework you're dealing with compared to what my kids are
> dealing with.
The amount varies and is often unpredictable. Some days
it will be within the school guidelines (40 minutes for DS1).
Sometimes it's within a reasonable amount of variation from that
(say, up to an hour, or maybe even an hour and a half). The
days that he gets home from school and does pretty much nothing
from 3:30 until 8:00 besides homework (excepting snack, dinner,
and getting ready for bed) I think are ridiculous.
> Because my kids go to afterschool, they don't get home until 6:00. They
> do their homework at afterschool. For DD12, in 6th grade, she spends
> pretty much the entire time (2-1/2 hours) doing homework. DD10, in 5th,
> tends to spend about an hour, some days more; it varies but she's
> almost always done before I pick her up.
>
> DD12 might have more homework to do at home, and will do this while I'm
> making dinner. After dinner, she will often have me sit and quiz her
> for tests, but that takes only 20 minutes or so. DD10 rarely needs to
> do any more in the evenings, although on occasion there is a project
> requiring parental involvement (usually something internet- or
> computer-related), but this is maybe once a month, tops. Both then read
> for at least 30 minutes each night. Both will have homework on the
> weekends, and that amount varies.
To me, that is an unacceptable amount of homework for
elementary-school aged children. Where is the time for physical
activity? Where is the time for socialization? Where is the
time to do things with family? Where is the time to have some
kind of responsibilities around the home?
> We've found it helps to forget the homework until the morning. I
> encourage an earlier bedtime, and have her set her alarm earlier than
> normal. Then when she is fresh, she gets up and jumps right in to her
> homework before school. Works well! She is most definetly a morning
> person.
That's what DS1 does when he can't stay awake any longer,
but there's only so much you can leave until the morning and still
have a reasonable expectation of it getting done.
> But mostly, I tell the girls that if they can get it all done at
> afterschool, we don't have to make that choice in the evenings. The
> goal is to have evenings relatively clear of school work - so ALL of us
> can relax.
I'm glad that works well for you. We'd be between a
rock and a hard place, though! If my kids got home at 6pm,
we'd only be able to eat dinner and get them to bed! That
would be a 9.5 hour workday for the kids!
> I don't ever remember having ANY homework until I hit junior high. The
> world has certainly changed. But, I have come to believe it's not such
> a bad thing. I am amazed that my kids can handle it, and amazed at how
> much they know at this age, compared to what I knew at that age!!
Personally, I don't think that the homework is
the only, or even the major, factor enabling such progress.
Even if it is, I think the cost of 9.5+ hour workdays
for children is unacceptable.
> In that case, yes, I agree, it IS too much homework. There definetly
> needs to be a balance, because the goal is not to undermine the
> children from learning to take responsibility for it. In our district,
> parental involvement tapers off until 5th grade, and by 6th they are
> completely on their own.
And the benefit of having the parents manage all those
early years is....what? Studies don't show the value of
homework in the early grades in producing greater academic
success later. Having the parents do the planning/scheduling/
etc. just makes the child dependent upon the parents'
planning skills so that they *have* to be weaned off them,
in my opinion.
Best wishes,
Ericka
shinypenny
Ericka Kammerer wrote:
> To me, that is an unacceptable amount of homework for
> elementary-school aged children. Where is the time for physical
> activity? Where is the time for socialization? Where is the
> time to do things with family? Where is the time to have some
> kind of responsibilities around the home?
You're talking about DD12, not DD10 (who averages about one hour plus
30 minutes of reading)? Because even when DD10 gets her homework done
at afterschool, she has plenty of time to socialize, run around on the
playground, etc, and her homework rarely (maybe once or twice a month)
interferes with family time after 6.
As for DD12, she's in middle school, not elementary. I should add that
she may possibly be a unique kid. She is a straight A student, and
highly motivated to learn without any prompting from anyone. On her own
initiative, she does MORE than the required work. She's the infuriating
kid who always does the extra credit and challenge problems, completes
the book report three weeks early, goes out of her way to do her own
research outside of the classroom when a subject interests her. The
teachers love her. :-)
As for socialization, she tends to socialize around homework
activities. Quite a lot of her homework involves working with a
partner. She has homework dates on the weekends. For doing chores, she
has plenty of time for that and is a huge help around the house,
recently taking on all the laundry. For physical activity, she
currently swims and skis. It is true she probably needs more on a daily
basis, and it's something we've been brainstorming. When it was warmer
out, we'd take walks together after dinner. For family time, we
consider 6 to 8 pretty sacred, as well as the weekends. She might do
homework while I'm cooking, but does so from the kitchen so we can
visit at the same time. This kid is simply ultra-organized and driven,
and a very good time manager.
> I'm glad that works well for you. We'd be between a
> rock and a hard place, though! If my kids got home at 6pm,
> we'd only be able to eat dinner and get them to bed! That
> would be a 9.5 hour workday for the kids!
Yeah, it takes getting used to. We've been doing it since an early age.
And except for the nights we might go out as a family, they manage to
get to bed at a reasonable hour, believe it or not!
> > In that case, yes, I agree, it IS too much homework. There
definetly
> > needs to be a balance, because the goal is not to undermine the
> > children from learning to take responsibility for it. In our
district,
> > parental involvement tapers off until 5th grade, and by 6th they
are
> > completely on their own.
>
> And the benefit of having the parents manage all those
> early years is....what? Studies don't show the value of
> homework in the early grades in producing greater academic
> success later. Having the parents do the planning/scheduling/
> etc. just makes the child dependent upon the parents'
> planning skills so that they *have* to be weaned off them,
> in my opinion.
I must not be explaining myself well. :-)
In our school, there is very little parental management involved. Yes,
the occasional project, but otherwise, we initial the homework and
that's it. By 5th, we don't even do this. I'm not
managing/planning/scheduling anything. The kids have slowly learned to
do that for themselves.
The end result is that DD12, now in middle school, is ultra-organized,
self-motivated and a fabulous time manager. DD10 is getting there. I
think by age 12 she will *also* be there.
jen
Banty
Yep. In our case, he would be too upset to sleep, making the whole thing
counterproductive.
Banty
Banty
says...
>DD10 is always exhausted by the time she gets home at 6. She gets very
>cranky, too. If for some reason she couldn't get her homework done at
>afterschool (there was a field trip, for example), then we're in big
>trouble, because like you're son, she is just too tired to focus.
>
>We've found it helps to forget the homework until the morning. I
>encourage an earlier bedtime, and have her set her alarm earlier than
>normal. Then when she is fresh, she gets up and jumps right in to her
>homework before school. Works well! She is most definetly a morning
>person.
>
My son started doing this. By himself. It's simply amazing to me...
He sets his alarm for 4:00 am. (!!!) Really - 4:00 am on the weekdays. He
leaves at 6:50 am for hte school bus (those incredibly early Jr. High hours..)
He does his homework then, most of it. I get on him to try to finish most of it
during the evening, because he's toast if he oversleeps ohterwise. But he
hardly even oversleeps.
THEN, the other thing that amazes me, is that on weekend mornings he never
awakes, and sleeps 'till noon.
So he's on this amazing 5-2 sleep schedule, and it seems to work for him.
Although I think he does some sleeping at school - that's not good. But his
grades have actually been decent.
Banty
Probert@lumbercartel.com Mark Probert
> Ruth Baltopoulos wrote:
>
>
> > Here is my strategy: I provide a place for homework to be
> > done and access to computers. I ask if it has been
> > completed (sometimes). I stay in touch with the school
> > (PTO, Conferences, Open Houses, School Committee) and
> > teachers are aware that I am interested in knowing of any
> > challenges or foibles. The end.
>
> circumstances. Under other situations, it doesn't work
> out quite so well. There are nights my 4th grader comes
> home with so much homework that if it happens on a day
> when we have to do *anything* after school other than
> eat dinner, he's up well past his bedtime to finish
> with him to keep him focused, he falls asleep at his
> issues, for whom it tends to take longer for homework
> to get done in the first place and who might well require
> the children who are struggling with the material and
> require substantial help from the parent to *teach* the
> material in order for the child to be able to complete
> assignments designed to create more "parental involvement"
> that *require* the parent to participate--we have quite
> a few of those. The instructions actually *tell* the
> parent what the parent is supposed to be doing (so it's
> not the child just conning the parent into doing it).
> out from attending to the needs of two kids' homework.
> I resent that there are so many fun and educational
> things we could do as a family, but our time to do
> so is severely limited by the amount of homework that
> homework is appropriate in elementary school--add the
> homework to the amount of time they're in school,
> and many of these kids are putting in 50+ hour
> weeks!
> reasonable amounts and types of homework, and is teaching
> the children the material before assigning homework on
> it, and your children don't have any extenuating
> circumstances that make homework more challenging
> than normal, I envy you. In that situation, I would
> happily stay the heck out of the way while my kids
> got their homework done, just as my parents did for
> me. Unfortunately, I believe that the situation here
> actively *UNDERMINES* children learning to be responsible
> for their own homework by making it virtually impossible
> for the children to take full responsibility for it.
> homework overload madness, and those years are *so*
> much better for us as a family--and (surprise, surprise)
> the kids still manage to learn just as much or more
> in those classes as the ones with mountains of homework.
OS has AD/HD with serious attention/focus problems. Fortunately, he is out
of HS, and about to graduate college with a BFA.
YS has CP with significant fine motor problems, and until this year needed
100% assistance with his HW. IOW, he got home from school at 3:30 and my
wife would work with him on English (she teaches that) and Social Studies
until dinner. After dinner, I took over and did the math and science until
around 9 PM.
Our regular district school's staff could not figure out why we wanted his
assignments for the week coming home on the preceding Friday. When I finally
got the point across to the individual teachers, they said that they would
not change their practices for *our convenience*.
Needless to say, he is now in a private special education school, paid for
by NY State, and the teachers there SUGGEST ways for us to better manage our
time. He is doing 30-40% of his own work now, using dictation software and
large type multiple choice handouts.
toto
<meh...@REMOVEpacbell.net> wrote:
>Frankly, an hour a day per class of homework is just wrong. Even if you
>are only taking 4 classes, if you get home at 3:00 in the afternoon, and
>spend, say, an hour eating dinner with your family and doing some
>household chores, you will not be done with your homework until 8:00.
>That leaves no time for sports, or theater, or any of the other things
>that might make a life more well rounded.
The generally accepted homework guidelines seem to be
as follows, though I am sure there are exceptions in various
places
Homework should have different purposes at different
grades. For younger students, it should foster positive
attitudes and habits of work. For older students, it should
facilitate knowledge acquisition in specific topics.
Recommended frequency and duration for homework
assignments should be:
* grades 1-3—one to three assignments a week, each
lasting no more than 15 minutes.
* grades 4-6—two to four assignments a week, each
lasting 15-45 minutes.
* grades 7-9—three to five assignments a week, each
lasting 45-75 minutes.
* grades 10-12—four to five assignments a week, each
lasting 75 to 120 minutes.
More isn’t necessarily better. If five questions sufficiently
reinforce a concept, 15 or 20 may turn students off,
discourage others, and can lead to negative attitudes.
--
Dorothy
There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..
The Outer Limits
toto
wrote:
>Well, how the heck am I supposed to do that if
>there's only one night to produce a clean draft of
>an essay?
Are you sure the teacher isn't looking at the homework
as a rough draft that can be edited in class?
Ericka Kammerer
> Ericka Kammerer wrote:
>
>
>
>> To me, that is an unacceptable amount of homework for
>>elementary-school aged children. Where is the time for physical
>>activity? Where is the time for socialization? Where is the
>>time to do things with family? Where is the time to have some
>>kind of responsibilities around the home?
>
>
> You're talking about DD12, not DD10 (who averages about one hour plus
> 30 minutes of reading)? Because even when DD10 gets her homework done
> at afterschool, she has plenty of time to socialize, run around on the
> playground, etc, and her homework rarely (maybe once or twice a month)
> interferes with family time after 6.
At 10yo, 1.5 hours of homework still sounds excessive
to me. I think an hour is more than enough on top of seven
hours of school.
> As for DD12, she's in middle school, not elementary. I should add that
> she may possibly be a unique kid. She is a straight A student, and
> highly motivated to learn without any prompting from anyone. On her own
> initiative, she does MORE than the required work. She's the infuriating
> kid who always does the extra credit and challenge problems, completes
> the book report three weeks early, goes out of her way to do her own
> research outside of the classroom when a subject interests her. The
> teachers love her. :-)
That's great that she is thriving on this, but while
I certainly hope DS1 will still be enjoying academics and
school in middle school, I also hope that he will continue
to enjoy some things outside of school. It would be one
thing if his talents and interests just happened to be all
academic, but as he has demonstrated other talents and
interests as well, I think it would be a shame for him
to have to give them up in order to devote more than 50 hours
a week to academics. Heck, I maintained a heavy courseload
through college, graduated with honors, and didn't have to
put in much more than that! (Good thing, too, since I had
to work.)
>> And the benefit of having the parents manage all those
>>early years is....what? Studies don't show the value of
>>homework in the early grades in producing greater academic
>>success later. Having the parents do the planning/scheduling/
>>etc. just makes the child dependent upon the parents'
>>planning skills so that they *have* to be weaned off them,
>>in my opinion.
>
>
> I must not be explaining myself well. :-)
>
> In our school, there is very little parental management involved. Yes,
> the occasional project, but otherwise, we initial the homework and
> that's it. By 5th, we don't even do this. I'm not
> managing/planning/scheduling anything. The kids have slowly learned to
> do that for themselves.
Kindergarteners can manage their homework themselves?
They are able to plan their lives so that they have time to
do their homework? Or are parents creating the time and space
for them to be successful with their homework? Most kindergarteners
can't even read a calendar well, much less have much control over
their schedule or providing the resources necessary to get their
homework done.
The only logic to it is the theory that one is
establishing a *habit* of doing homework every single
day (ideally same time, same place) so that it sticks
because That's the Way It's Always Been. Personally,
I don't think that holds a whole lot of water. DH
didn't get up and shower every morning as a 4yo to
make sure he'd be in the habit by the time he had to
in order not to offend passers by with his unwashed
self, yet that habit is so engrained that I shudder
to think how he'd function without his morning dose
of hot water.
> The end result is that DD12, now in middle school, is ultra-organized,
> self-motivated and a fabulous time manager. DD10 is getting there. I
> think by age 12 she will *also* be there.
But I rather suspect they could have had practically
no homework for early elementary and could still be at the
same place by now. Similarly, you can start a child on
piano at 4yo or at 7yo, but by the time they're 9yo you
probably can't tell the difference (except that you will
burn out some of the 4yos due to sheer frustration before
they even get to be 9yo piano players).
Best wishes,
Ericka
Ericka Kammerer
Adriain actually woke up screaming at 3am that he
needed to do his homework one night during Nutcracker season
when I told him he just needed to go to bed and I would
talk to his teacher about it. I think that's sad that he
should feel so pressured about homework at this tender
age.
Best wishes,
Ericka
Mermaid
>
> That is terrible. It's unconscionable (sp?) that a child's quality of
> education should suffer like this. Incidentally, that business with the
> student teacher was ludicrous.
I made a point of talking to the principal today in regards to the issue
with the student teacher. She swallowed hard and basically back peddled.
"OH no the reason you and the other parents are being told not to come into
this classroom is that now that the teacher has the student teacher there
she is able to work with the students having trouble." I wanted to say
"well why didn't they say that in the first place!" It appears that she was
caught in the middle and wanted to make excuses anyhow. Oh well. I made my
point telling them that I hope the students who need help will get it even
if it means the student teacher is uncomfortable."
Anni
toto
wrote:
>That's because it is ridiculous on several levels - 1.)Student
>teachers get observed all the time, deal with it
>2.) i can't believe the student teacher whined to the
>administration about this 3.) I can't believe the administration
>gave in to the whining at their admitted detriment to students
>
I would agree here. The student teacher needs to get used to
the fact that dealing with parents is part of the teacher's job.
>BTW, I was a teacher before becoming a SAHM last year,
>and welcomed parents in my classroom anytime.
I have always welcomed parents too.
The Ranger
news:b7sTd.11620$Im2....@fe12.lga...
[snip]
> Our regular district school's staff could not figure out
> why we wanted his assignments for the week coming
> home on the preceding Friday. When I finally got the
> point across to the individual teachers, they said that
> they would not change their practices for *our convenience*.
Damn! I feel extremely lucky reading these stories!
The teachers at my daughter-units' current school are giving of their
time and efforts in so many ways that I can't list them all without
sounding like a flat-out Neener-Neener Brag... _Every_ teacher will work
with the parents, to a point, so that each of their students can succeed
(minus those few parents that require the make-work on top of
make-work). This isn't to say that these same teachers are willing to do
a formalized IAP for each of the 600 students but they are willing to
find out what will work and how to improve that which isn't. Two
teachers have even gone to the extreme of offering afterschool tutoring
for students at every grade so that parents aren't being forced to teach
concepts that they haven't learned themselves.
The Ranger
Here to there
>
> "Ericka Kammerer" <e...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>> Stephanie Stowe wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Off the wall curiosity question here.... What would happen if you
>>> determined what *you* considered a reasonable amount of time, set the
>>> timer for that amount of time, and called it quits after that?
>>
>> for math--they're to do 15 minutes of work. What isn't done after
>> 15 minutes just doesn't get done. He evaluates both the accuracy
>> and amount of what's completed to get a bead on how well the
>> students understand the material. Fabulous. Love it.
>>
>>> This is assuming your child will give best effort for this amount of
>>> time. What are grades based on? If it is clear from the tests that the
>>> material is being aqcuired then what is the purpose of the homework? Is
>>> it an end in itself?
>>
>> experience, the teachers who deliberately give a lot of homework
>> are True Believers. They believe that regular significant amounts
>> of homework will teach children to be responsible, to have a good
>> work ethic, to develop good study habits, etc. etc. etc. They
>> view not completing the homework as a character flaw, and see
>> any parent who isn't on board with the program as insufficiently
>> interested in a quality education for the child. Other teachers
>> can be more amenable to various strategies, but this one can be
>> a bit tricky. It can appear pretty unfair to other kids who
>> are doing the homework until it's done, whatever that takes.
>>
>
>
> Let me ask you this philosophical question from *your* opinion. What is your
> child's math teacher's responsibility to your child regarding work ethic,
> responsibility and whatnot as a primary goal? There is a need to assume that
> the child has a degree of responsibility in order to achieve math skills.
> But I think that a child's math teacher should be primarily focused on
> achievement in math. Perhaps I am nuts.
I don't think you're nuts.
In my not-so-humble opinion, the Math teacher is there to guide my kids
though the math that I can't teach them. The Science teacher is there to
handle the science that I can't teach them. The Music teacher is there to
teach them everything about music, since I don't have the foggiest idea
about even the most basic concepts. ;-) But it is the responsibility
of my wife and I to teach my children to be good, responsible, contributing
members of our society. We had kids so that we could teach them how
to live a good life - not so that some teacher could try to turn them
into workaholics because he or she has some extreme idea of what
constitutes "good study habits". There are more than enough kids
being taught to be drones, already.
- Rich
Probert@lumbercartel.com Mark Probert
"The Ranger" <cuhula...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3871tnF...@individual.net...
The local district has a well deserved reputation for many problems. Visit
www.newsday.com and search on Mepham, for starters.
Previously, they were sued by a family of a kid with Tourettes who was
tormented for months before he struck back and want then hospitalized by his
"peers." The district recently settled for a significant sum.
I learned a long time ago that with them it is better to switch than fight.
They were most helpful in getting rid of us and getting my son into the
special school, whose nick name is "The Harvard of Special Education" and is
well deserved.
Ericka Kammerer
> The generally accepted homework guidelines seem to be
> as follows, though I am sure there are exceptions in various
> places
>
> Homework should have different purposes at different
> grades. For younger students, it should foster positive
> attitudes and habits of work. For older students, it should
> facilitate knowledge acquisition in specific topics.
> Recommended frequency and duration for homework
> assignments should be:
>
> * grades 1-3—one to three assignments a week, each
> lasting no more than 15 minutes.
> * grades 4-6—two to four assignments a week, each
> lasting 15-45 minutes.
> * grades 7-9—three to five assignments a week, each
> lasting 45-75 minutes.
> * grades 10-12—four to five assignments a week, each
> lasting 75 to 120 minutes.
HAH! Generally accepted, where? Academia? From
what I hear from other parents, our school's guidelines
are considered pretty low, and they'd stack up to yours
as follows:
Yours Ours
1-3 15-45 min/week 40-120 min/week
4-6 30-180 min/week 160-360 min/week
And, of course, many times our guidelines are exceeded.
I'd say DS2 in 2nd grade falls well within the guidelines
at about 60 min/week, but DS1 in 4th grade probably
does about 8 hours/week of homework.
Best wishes,
Ericka
The Ranger
news:3871rrF...@individual.net...
[snip]
> I made a point of talking to the principal today in regards
> to the issue with the student teacher. She swallowed hard
> and basically back peddled. "OH no the reason you and
> the other parents are being told not to come into this
> classroom is that now that the teacher has the student
> teacher there she is able to work with the students having
> trouble." I wanted to say "well why didn't they say that
> in the first place!" It appears that she was caught in the
> middle and wanted to make excuses anyhow. Oh well. I
> made my point telling them that I hope the students who
> need help will get it even if it means the student teacher
> is uncomfortable."
What a spineless piece of washed-up jelly-bloat!
I know you don't like confrontation, Mermaid, but a little push-back is
needed to drive your point home even further about the volunteer
situation. Get the other three (or four) parents together and re-insert
yourselves into the classroom. The teacher _can_ use the extra eyes and
hands for one-on-one reading, math and art, and the aid -- she's only a
student teacher -- can be used for the reason she's there, learning how
to write-develop-and-deliver a lesson plan under experienced
supervision.
Screw the lack of support from the school. Push back and push often; it
might feel like you're pushing against the ocean's tide but you're not.
Eventually the resource they get from the parent community will enhance
their overall points and community.
The "BTDT" Ranger
Ericka Kammerer
> On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 14:05:31 -0500, Ericka Kammerer <e...@comcast.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>>Well, how the heck am I supposed to do that if
>>there's only one night to produce a clean draft of
>>an essay?
>
>
> Are you sure the teacher isn't looking at the homework
> as a rough draft that can be edited in class?
Yep. It's made clear what level of editing
is expected. If it's specifically *writing* homework,
there probably will be time for edits and drafts between
homework and classwork, but she doesn't bat an eyelash
at assigning an essay for homework in *another* subject,
where the night's homework is the one and only draft
of the paper and it's expected to be of reasonable quality.
Best wishes,
Ericka
Bruce Bridgman and Jeanne Yang
>>
> The other problem was that Weekends Were Sacred. No homework on weekends,
> when
> our schedule was more relaxed and things like writing could be broken up
> and
> made more pleasant. It was all stacked onto Mon. - Thur. AND Scouts had
> to be
> some night Mon. - Thur. AND band rehersals and concerts had to be some
> night
> Mon. Thur. The after school program was iffy regarding homework time and
> environment, so we'd often have four overstuffed evenings, a real tired
> kid on
> Fridays, and lots of free time on weekends. Well bully for the weekend,
> and we
> would always plan bigger homework projects for then, but didn't make sense
> for
> our family and it made school kind of miserable.
>
I was wondering about this. DD doesn't get homework on Fridays but I
assumed it was because she's only in 2nd grade. You mean this is true for
all grades? Actually I'd rather she have *some* homework - the same math
worksheet and spelling - over the weekend. Not three hours worth but maybe
20 minutes worth (don't worry, we can stretch it to 3 hours :).
Jeanne
Ericka Kammerer
> That's the benefit of computers and word processing programs.
> Daughter-unit Beta is writing multiple essays this year in disparate
> topics and subjects. I made sure the teacher understood that each essay
> would be coming in printed from a laser printer. He didn't have a
> problem with that. In fact he asked the rest of the class to make sure
> they turned in their essays printed from the computer to help with ease
> of reading (most are still writing using Kinder-glyphs and crayons for
> handwriting). Only two kids took him up on it (because their parents
> forced them!) The other 32 students use their computers to instant
> message and play games! Using it for what it was designed is a totally
> alien concept. <shakes head>
While my son prefers keyboarding to handwriting, that's
not the issue. Writing is hard for him, and it's coming up
with the words and the structure that takes time for him, more
so than writing things down.
Best wishes,
Ericka
shinypenny
Ericka Kammerer wrote:
> At 10yo, 1.5 hours of homework still sounds excessive
> to me. I think an hour is more than enough on top of seven
> hours of school.
I guess I don't view reading as "homework." It's relaxation/unwind
time. When they were younger, this time was much shorter - like, 5
minutes - and slowly increased. Usually they read longer than that on
their own accord.
> That's great that she is thriving on this, but while
> I certainly hope DS1 will still be enjoying academics and
> school in middle school, I also hope that he will continue
> to enjoy some things outside of school. It would be one
> thing if his talents and interests just happened to be all
> academic, but as he has demonstrated other talents and
> interests as well, I think it would be a shame for him
> to have to give them up in order to devote more than 50 hours
> a week to academics. Heck, I maintained a heavy courseload
> through college, graduated with honors, and didn't have to
> put in much more than that! (Good thing, too, since I had
> to work.)
Well, DD12 also plays violin, swims, and skis. Last year she managed a
similar schedule while also playing the lead in the school play. She
has been wanting to add something to her schedule, now that we're half
way through the year, and feels like she has a handle on her time.
Probably a hip-hop class. She doesn't feel overscheduled.
As for other activities, we do tons of things as a family on a regular
basis, including going to plays, art galleries, museums, lectures, etc.
Actually, sometimes I feel myself downplaying how much of this we do
during the week, because I don't want people thinking I'm somehow a bad
mother dragging my kids around town on a school night. The truth is we
average going out one school night per week to something educational
and interesting to broaden their horizons, plus maybe a visit to a
museum on Saturday, a play on a Saturday night, and perhaps a dance
show on Sunday afternoon.
I have no fear that she's not well rounded. :-)
> Kindergarteners can manage their homework themselves?
> They are able to plan their lives so that they have time to
> do their homework? Or are parents creating the time and space
> for them to be successful with their homework? Most kindergarteners
> can't even read a calendar well, much less have much control over
> their schedule or providing the resources necessary to get their
> homework done.
Well, sure, in K the kids need more prompting. You set up a place to do
the homework. You establish a time for homework. You have all the tools
they need, then you sit them down, and tell them, "Fifteen minutes."
You make yourself busy for 15 minutes. Then you come over and sign the
homework sheet.
As they progress, it changes and evolves at every grade. By 5th, I
couldn't tell you what my kids have assigned for the night. They could
tell me if I ask, however, because they've got it all neatly written
out in their planners, with due dates and check marks next to the items
they've completed.
> The only logic to it is the theory that one is
> establishing a *habit* of doing homework every single
> day (ideally same time, same place) so that it sticks
> because That's the Way It's Always Been. Personally,
> I don't think that holds a whole lot of water. DH
> didn't get up and shower every morning as a 4yo to
> make sure he'd be in the habit by the time he had to
> in order not to offend passers by with his unwashed
> self, yet that habit is so engrained that I shudder
> to think how he'd function without his morning dose
> of hot water.
:-)
> > The end result is that DD12, now in middle school, is
ultra-organized,
> > self-motivated and a fabulous time manager. DD10 is getting there.
I
> > think by age 12 she will *also* be there.
>
> But I rather suspect they could have had practically
> no homework for early elementary and could still be at the
> same place by now.
Could be. Hard for me to say.
> Similarly, you can start a child on
> piano at 4yo or at 7yo, but by the time they're 9yo you
> probably can't tell the difference (except that you will
> burn out some of the 4yos due to sheer frustration before
> they even get to be 9yo piano players).
True.
jen
Bob LeChevalier
>: Then obviously something has to give - usually a class.
>Rarely (or has
>: things really changed that much) do schools require six
>classes and three
>: electives. Drop an elective or two. But even if this is
>the case, I don't
>: think heavy coursework is a legitimate reason for parents
>to do their
>: children's homework.
>
>I have heard of this homework nightmare from others in my
>town, but my teenagers must be attending a different school,
>because I have *never* seen the amount of homework lamented
>about <smile>, and if I had, I definitely would have
>addressed it with the Superintendent and Principals. Many,
>many parents have vocalized to me that they have no life in
>the evenings as they sit with their children while they
>do/help them with their homework <boggle!>
Sometimes it depends upon the kid. My kids in 3rd or 4th grade
frequently had 3 hours homework in one subject. It took that long for
them to come up with and write 15 nontrivial sentences for their 15
spelling words (my son would try to write sentences like "I am XXXXX"
for all his sentences but we required more than that). It took them
that long to solve the 20-25 arithmetic problems on the page, both
with the help of parents who would help and hint but not give them the
answers. We eventually got the homework for my son reduced to 5
sentences, which made it a reasonable amount of time. But I'm sure
other kids were able to spill out 15 sentences in 15 minutes or less.
(My kids were ESL, but the problem went beyond that to simply not
being able to think of sentences).
lojbab
--
lojbab loj...@lojban.org
Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group
(Opinions are my own; I do not speak for the organization.)
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org
The Ranger
> The Ranger wrote:
> > That's the benefit of computers and word processing
> > programs.
> While my son prefers keyboarding to handwriting, that's
> not the issue. Writing is hard for him, and it's coming up
> with the words and the structure that takes time for him, more
> so than writing things down.
Daughter-units Alpha and Beta are no different.
I was taught to use an outline to help organize my thoughts. My Sainted
Mother(tm) would sit and quiz me orally about a topic, bless her
Editor's Heart, like I was talking to one of my friends about the
subject until the outline was fleshed out with Who, What, When, Where,
Why, How, and the topic/theme sentence was formed. I use the same
technique with both daughter-units. They are now able to produce a
finished draft on their own in about 40 minutes.
Someone mentioned oral-dictation software? That might be just the key
for him to realize how much fun free-form writing can be.
The Ranger
Bob LeChevalier
>> Once he's that tired, if one of us is not sitting
>> with him to keep him focused, he falls asleep at his
>> desk.
>
>blowing off homework all day) then that is just too much.
There are many kids (and mine were among them) that are mentally
exhausted by the time school let out. My son as late as 4th or 5th
grade had no trouble going to sleep at 800, and sleeping all night.
We could seldom get 15 minutes work out of him in the evening without
obvious signs of being tired (and not just laziness). He had
attention issues, and merely staying attentive all day for him, with
medication, was exhausting work. My daughter who had no such
attention deficit diagnosis, was frequently reported to lose her focus
at school about 1-130PM. We later linked the early tiredness to the
lack of recess, and the fact that the school started lunch before 11am
(and the kids only had a half hour for their lunch break, so that they
had very little time to move around after standing in the cafeteria
line for up to 15 minutes, and being required to stay in assigned
seats while eating).
>> And that's before we get to the stupid
>> assignments designed to create more "parental involvement"
>> that *require* the parent to participate--we have quite
>> a few of those.
>
>What classes / ages does this occur in? Why does this occur, I wonder. As
>in, what is the teacher hoping to gain?
Most elementary grades. And it is something that is necessary for any
sort of long term project when kids have attention spans of less than
1/2 hour.
The Ranger
That's the benefit of computers and word processing programs.
Daughter-unit Beta is writing multiple essays this year in disparate
topics and subjects. I made sure the teacher understood that each essay
would be coming in printed from a laser printer. He didn't have a
problem with that. In fact he asked the rest of the class to make sure
they turned in their essays printed from the computer to help with ease
of reading (most are still writing using Kinder-glyphs and crayons for
handwriting). Only two kids took him up on it (because their parents
forced them!) The other 32 students use their computers to instant
message and play games! Using it for what it was designed is a totally
alien concept. <shakes head>
The Ranger
The Ranger
message news:r8-dnbflGYi...@comcast.com...
> "Banty" <Banty_...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:cvlbo...@drn.newsguy.com...
> >>
> > The other problem was that Weekends Were Sacred. No
> > homework on weekends,
> I was wondering about this. DD doesn't get homework on
> Fridays but I assumed it was because she's only in 2nd grade.
Not in our school district, nor the others around us. Starting around
4th grade, the kids start getting assignments on the weekend -- nothing
heavy -- that will prep them for the coming week. It's not really
make-work but it feels like it some times.
The Ranger
Ericka Kammerer
> Ericka Kammerer <e...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:KcmdnezvHYe...@comcast.com...
>>While my son prefers keyboarding to handwriting, that's
>>not the issue. Writing is hard for him, and it's coming up
>>with the words and the structure that takes time for him, more
>>so than writing things down.
>
>
> Daughter-units Alpha and Beta are no different.
>
> I was taught to use an outline to help organize my thoughts. My Sainted
> Mother(tm) would sit and quiz me orally about a topic, bless her
> Editor's Heart, like I was talking to one of my friends about the
> subject until the outline was fleshed out with Who, What, When, Where,
> Why, How, and the topic/theme sentence was formed. I use the same
> technique with both daughter-units. They are now able to produce a
> finished draft on their own in about 40 minutes.
>
> Someone mentioned oral-dictation software? That might be just the key
> for him to realize how much fun free-form writing can be.
We've been around the block a few times--he has issues
with almost every step, so each thing helps a bit but isn't a
silver bullet. We are still nowhere near being able to get a
finished draft in 40 minutes, though. The process of discussing
the topic to elicit ideas to outline can take longer than that,
even when he knows the material well :-(
Best wishes,
Ericka
Ericka Kammerer
> Ericka Kammerer wrote:
>
>
>> At 10yo, 1.5 hours of homework still sounds excessive
>>to me. I think an hour is more than enough on top of seven
>>hours of school.
>
>
> I guess I don't view reading as "homework." It's relaxation/unwind
> time. When they were younger, this time was much shorter - like, 5
> minutes - and slowly increased. Usually they read longer than that on
> their own accord.
It's homework to me if you still have to do it before
you can go to sleep whether you're tired and it's past your
bedtime or not ;-) DS1 likes to read for pleasure, and will
generally read any evening he has time before bed. Just try
to get an exhausted kid to stay awake to read for 30 min. when
he wants nothing more than to fall asleep. Fortunately, that's
a good thing to do in the morning since there's a finite
amount of time involved.
> As for other activities, we do tons of things as a family on a regular
> basis, including going to plays, art galleries, museums, lectures, etc.
> Actually, sometimes I feel myself downplaying how much of this we do
> during the week, because I don't want people thinking I'm somehow a bad
> mother dragging my kids around town on a school night.
I think if it works for your family, that's great. Like
I said, my kids seem to have greater than average need for sleep,
so we can't risk late bedtimes for fun things on school nights :-(
It just leads to a very cranky and unproductive boy the next day.
I'd *love* to be able to take DS1 out to more concerts, but if
they don't have a matinee, we don't go. He'd be snoring in the
seat ;-)
Best wishes,
Ericka
Circe
> toto wrote:
> > * grades 1-3—one to three assignments a week, each
> > lasting no more than 15 minutes.
> > * grades 4-6—two to four assignments a week, each
> > lasting 15-45 minutes.
> > * grades 7-9—three to five assignments a week, each
> > lasting 45-75 minutes.
> > * grades 10-12—four to five assignments a week, each
> > lasting 75 to 120 minutes.
>
> HAH! Generally accepted, where? Academia? From
> what I hear from other parents, our school's guidelines
> are considered pretty low, and they'd stack up to yours
> as follows:
>
> Yours Ours
>
> 1-3 15-45 min/week 40-120 min/week
> 4-6 30-180 min/week 160-360 min/week
>
K 60 min/week (15 min. per night, 4 night per week)
1-2 60-180 min/week
Julian, in second grade, has 60 minutes per week of reading aloud to do each
week. Getting him to do it was like pulling teeth. I finally stopped making
him read it aloud and now he quite happily and of his own volition reads for
well over 60 minutes per week (and a much greater amount, as well). This was
a case where treating it as "homework" was making something that *ought to
be* pleasurable into a chore. I'm glad I wised up on that one.
If I stopped considering his 60 minutes per week, the amount of homework he
has would be eminently reasonable (two worksheets per week, each taking
about 20 minutes if he applies himself) as long as we didn't consider the
monthly "sharing projects". But those sharing projects are killers. Last
month, he had to do a report on an animal complete with a diorama (which,
according to the teacher's directions, was to "look as though the animal is
in its habitat). If you think any of the second graders actually did their
own dioramas, you've got another thing coming! And I don't even want to
think about how much time my husband spent helping Julian on that one. This
month, it was a poster on a famous black American. That one wasn't quite so
bad from the perspective of the kids being able to do most of the work
themselves, but it still took quite a bit of work (I'd estimate it added two
hours to our homework load over the last two weeks).
But I've already complained about the homework at my school. I feel it's
*extremely* excessive (and is *very* difficult for my daughter, whose
processing delays and fine motor issues along with a natural tendency to
work very slowly and deliberately mean it takes her twice as long as anyone
else to complete just about anything).
--
Be well, Barbara
Mom to Mr. Congeniality (7), the Diva (5) and the Race Car Fanatic (almost
3)
I have PMS and ESP...I'm the bitch who knows everything! (T-shirt slogan)
Probert@lumbercartel.com Mark Probert
My son does everything by computer, except eat lunch and play wheelchair
basketball. Each desk in his school has a built in laptop and the teacher
can display each students work on a master screen. It gets really cute when
the teacher displays the instant messaging....
Probert@lumbercartel.com Mark Probert
> The other problem was that Weekends Were Sacred. No homework on weekends,
when
> our schedule was more relaxed and things like writing could be broken up
and
> made more pleasant. It was all stacked onto Mon. - Thur. AND Scouts had
to be
> some night Mon. - Thur. AND band rehersals and concerts had to be some
night
> Mon. Thur. The after school program was iffy regarding homework time and
> environment, so we'd often have four overstuffed evenings, a real tired
kid on
> Fridays, and lots of free time on weekends. Well bully for the weekend,
and we
> would always plan bigger homework projects for then, but didn't make sense
for
> our family and it made school kind of miserable.
We never minded weekend homework, or, better yet, a project assignment which
we could someohow turn into a family outing. In the 6th grade my sons
teacher thought that was such a good idea that she sent home lists of
relavan toutings.
> *Some* teachers are amenable to giving assignments due Tuesday or
Wednesday the
> previous Friday, most aren't.
Some teachers flatly refuse to accommodate any requests.
When we asked for it, they made it sound like they never taught the subject
before and were going to lock themselves away because they needed the entire
weekend to plan.
dragonlady
"shinypenny" <shinype...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I don't ever remember having ANY homework until I hit junior high. The
> world has certainly changed. But, I have come to believe it's not such
> a bad thing. I am amazed that my kids can handle it, and amazed at how
> much they know at this age, compared to what I knew at that age!!
I disagree; I think homework earlier than 4th or 5th grade is just
Wrong. There are other educational experts who agree with this, though
I can't cite names without a searching -- the reading I did was some
time ago.
There is absolutely NO evidence that homework for those younger than 10
helps in any way. DD1 just learned to HATE homework in second grade,
when there was way too much of it (and she had an evil teacher;
seriously -- she was finally fired two years later), and she never
really recovered from that. I think if she'd waited until 5th grade for
homework, it would have been a different story.
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care
Melania
> I disagree; I think homework earlier than 4th or 5th grade is just
> Wrong. There are other educational experts who agree with this,
though
> I can't cite names without a searching -- the reading I did was some
> time ago.
>
> There is absolutely NO evidence that homework for those younger than
10
> helps in any way. DD1 just learned to HATE homework in second grade,
> when there was way too much of it (and she had an evil teacher;
> seriously -- she was finally fired two years later), and she never
> really recovered from that. I think if she'd waited until 5th grade
for
> homework, it would have been a different story.
I'm glad someone else said this . . . I don't remember having homework
till junior high school. From then on, it was usually 1-2 hours *total*
per evening, mostly either assignments or papers to be written at home.
My mom teaches primary school (K-9), and only the 6 or 7-9s get
homework, IIRC.
If you like, I can ask my dad about the "experts'" opinions on this.
He's a career teacher-administrator with an MEd in special education
and learning disabilities. He's probably done a fair bit of reading on
the issue, as well as having formed opinions from a lifetime of
experience.
Melania
Mom to Joffre (Jan 11, 2003)
and #2 (edd May 21, 2005)
dragonlady
"Stephanie Stowe" <Iwish...@nospam.com> wrote:
>
> Off the wall curiosity question here.... What would happen if you determined
> what *you* considered a reasonable amount of time, set the timer for that
> amount of time, and called it quits after that? This is assuming your child
> will give best effort for this amount of time. What are grades based on? If
> it is clear from the tests that the material is being aqcuired then what is
> the purpose of the homework? Is it an end in itself? I have always thought
> of homework as exercise, but I get the impression that a lot of what my
> nephews did was busy work to make a teacher happy. Of course, I got this
> impression from the nephews whose points of view may have been a bit
> distorted.
It would depend a lot on the teacher. Some would accept it, others
would give your child a much lower grade.
And some teachers DO give busy work; they are asked to make sure they
send home homework, to keep the kids off the street and out of trouble.
Now that my kids are in college, in most of their classes they don't GET
homework they have to turn in. This has been especially welcome for my
mathematically gifted son; he used to get low grades in math, even
though he aced the tests, because he didn't turn in all of the homework.
Now, he does enough to make sure he understands it well, then quits.
Since he got an A in his college calculus class, that seems to be
working well!
dragonlady
Ericka Kammerer <e...@comcast.net> wrote:
> >
> > I guess I don't view reading as "homework." It's relaxation/unwind
> > time. When they were younger, this time was much shorter - like, 5
> > minutes - and slowly increased. Usually they read longer than that on
> > their own accord.
>
> It's homework to me if you still have to do it before
> you can go to sleep whether you're tired and it's past your
> bedtime or not ;-) DS1 likes to read for pleasure, and will
> generally read any evening he has time before bed. Just try
> to get an exhausted kid to stay awake to read for 30 min. when
> he wants nothing more than to fall asleep. Fortunately, that's
> a good thing to do in the morning since there's a finite
> amount of time involved.
It can also be a problem if the teacher has to approve the book -- and
doesn't approve of your child's taste in books. DS loves to read, and
reads well. However, his middle school teacher (7th grade, as I recall)
would NOT approve any of the books he brought in, because she considered
them inappropriate for a child. He was heavily into Stephen King and
Michael Crichton at the time, and she just did not approve. This meant
he had to spend time reading stuff he didn't enjoy -- most of it well
below his reading level -- before he could get to the reading he DID
enjoy.
Melania
(excuse piggyback on own post)
Just got off the phone with my mom and dad. They are both vehemently
opposed to assigned homework in primary school (as opposed to work the
child was supposed to have completed in class and didn't manage).
I also asked about the child referred to earlier, who had some six
hours of homework a night at the highschool level, and my dad said it
was "ridiculous." He's an assistant superintendent, was a principal for
7 years, and was a primary/middle school teacher for 20-odd years
before that. My mom added that there were a lot of variables that might
contribute to a kid taking 6 hours to do homework (easily distracted,
taking lots of breaks, really unable to do the work at that level), but
that if it was work that it would take anyone 6 hours to do, it was
probably only stressing out and overtiring kids, rather than educating
and enriching them.
dragonlady
"Melania" <mdc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> (excuse piggyback on own post)
> Just got off the phone with my mom and dad. They are both vehemently
> opposed to assigned homework in primary school (as opposed to work the
> child was supposed to have completed in class and didn't manage).
>
> I also asked about the child referred to earlier, who had some six
> hours of homework a night at the highschool level, and my dad said it
> was "ridiculous." He's an assistant superintendent, was a principal for
> 7 years, and was a primary/middle school teacher for 20-odd years
> before that. My mom added that there were a lot of variables that might
> contribute to a kid taking 6 hours to do homework (easily distracted,
> taking lots of breaks, really unable to do the work at that level), but
> that if it was work that it would take anyone 6 hours to do, it was
> probably only stressing out and overtiring kids, rather than educating
> and enriching them.
>
> Melania
> Mom to Joffre (Jan 11, 2003)
> and #2 (edd May 21, 2005)
Thanks, Melania.
It's nice to know there are still some level headed people out there.
I have a friend who teaches high school music (has a dynomite choir!)
and she specifically looked for a school that did not assign homework
before 5th grade for her kids. It took her a while to find one, but
both she and her kids are happier for it!
Banty
says...
>
>
>Ericka Kammerer wrote:
>
>> At 10yo, 1.5 hours of homework still sounds excessive
>> to me. I think an hour is more than enough on top of seven
>> hours of school.
>
>I guess I don't view reading as "homework." It's relaxation/unwind
>time. When they were younger, this time was much shorter - like, 5
>minutes - and slowly increased. Usually they read longer than that on
>their own accord.
Not everyone finds reading relaxing. Even those that do, don't necessarily find
reading what someone *else* wants them to read relaxing.
Banty
Rick Fey
> Off the wall curiosity question here.... What would happen if you determined
> what *you* considered a reasonable amount of time, set the timer for that
> amount of time, and called it quits after that? This is assuming your child
> will give best effort for this amount of time. What are grades based on? If
> it is clear from the tests that the material is being aqcuired then what is
> the purpose of the homework? Is it an end in itself? I have always thought
> of homework as exercise, but I get the impression that a lot of what my
> nephews did was busy work to make a teacher happy. Of course, I got this
> impression from the nephews whose points of view may have been a bit
> distorted.
Ya think?
as ever,
Banty
>
>If I stopped considering his 60 minutes per week, the amount of homework he
>has would be eminently reasonable (two worksheets per week, each taking
>about 20 minutes if he applies himself) as long as we didn't consider the
>monthly "sharing projects". But those sharing projects are killers. Last
>month, he had to do a report on an animal complete with a diorama (which,
>according to the teacher's directions, was to "look as though the animal is
>in its habitat). If you think any of the second graders actually did their
>own dioramas, you've got another thing coming! And I don't even want to
>think about how much time my husband spent helping Julian on that one. This
>month, it was a poster on a famous black American. That one wasn't quite so
>bad from the perspective of the kids being able to do most of the work
>themselves, but it still took quite a bit of work (I'd estimate it added two
>hours to our homework load over the last two weeks).
"Sharing", meaning sharing work with parents, or "sharing", meaning a group
project and one or more parent gets too involved?
>
>But I've already complained about the homework at my school. I feel it's
>*extremely* excessive (and is *very* difficult for my daughter, whose
>processing delays and fine motor issues along with a natural tendency to
>work very slowly and deliberately mean it takes her twice as long as anyone
>else to complete just about anything).
Yep. My son doesn't have any particular issues affecting homework (except an
eye problem which means his vision isn't perfectly corrected). But in the
elementary grades he took a llooooong time. But his experience didn't 'count'.
Some other kid apparent is the clock they use for homework times :-(
Banty
The Ranger
news:1109292227....@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
[snip]
> I also asked about the child referred to earlier, who
> had some six hours of homework a night at the
> highschool level, and my dad said it was "ridiculous."
> He's an assistant superintendent, was a principal for
> 7 years, and was a primary/middle school teacher for
> 20-odd years before that.
Is his school district driven by test scores or real estate prices?
Those are the two items that are driving the school districts here. My
ILs, many of them former teachers and administrators, voice very similar
sentiments regarding my daughter-units' school district's mountains of
homework, especially starting at Kindergarten. <shrug> It's a favorite
topic of discussion at family gatherings.
The Ranger
dragonlady
"The Ranger" <cuhula...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Yes, but is there ANY evidence that those mountains of homework help the
test scores? (I know they don't change the real estate prices . . .)
Circe
> In article <gktTd.81178$Yu.32811@fed1read01>, Circe says...
> >If I stopped considering his 60 minutes per week, the amount of homework
he
> >has would be eminently reasonable (two worksheets per week, each taking
> >about 20 minutes if he applies himself) as long as we didn't consider the
> >monthly "sharing projects". But those sharing projects are killers. Last
> >month, he had to do a report on an animal complete with a diorama (which,
> >according to the teacher's directions, was to "look as though the animal
is
> >in its habitat). If you think any of the second graders actually did
their
> >own dioramas, you've got another thing coming! And I don't even want to
> >think about how much time my husband spent helping Julian on that one.
This
> >month, it was a poster on a famous black American. That one wasn't quite
so
> >bad from the perspective of the kids being able to do most of the work
> >themselves, but it still took quite a bit of work (I'd estimate it added
two
> >hours to our homework load over the last two weeks).
>
> "Sharing", meaning sharing work with parents, or "sharing", meaning a
group
> project and one or more parent gets too involved?
Sharing meaning that they present to their classmates the resulting project
and all the information they've learned in researching and putting it
together as "show and tell".
MJMC
news:oqhq11heqepn4apc8...@4ax.com...
> Any anecdotes?
I teach in a pretty affluent school and nothing in that article surprised
me. THis year in particular has been a wild one as far as parents and the
way they treat us. I've had a parent stalk me, one scream at me in the
parking lot, and one accuse me of giving up on her child because I gave a
consequence for repeated tardies. Oh, and one was livid because I took up
the kid's cell phone per district policy (they're banned on junior high
campuses) because she needs to be able to reach the child at all times--SHE
was calling the child in the middle of class!
I also have parents who either A) care more about the grade than what the
kid is actually learning, or B) prefer to have a child fail a pre-AP class
than pass/succeed in a regular one. We just did choice sheets, and we had to
recommend kids for one of three levels. Anyone who didn't get recommended
the highest level, their parents are calling to demand why not. Because
apparently my school is in Lake Wobegon, where everyone's above average....
Another good story is about a student I had only for a short time last
year (his mom demanded a teacher change because I gave him a zero for
<gasp!> something he didn't turn in). He didn't qualify for NJHS last year,
so the parents raised holy hell. Eventually they brought in lawyers and
sued. The kid was admitted into NJHS this fall.
Mostly, I just get variations of "He says he didn't do that" and "That's a
great policy for the other students, but it shouldn't apply to MY child
because...."
Melissa
The Ranger
news:mehouck-97F7ED...@newssvr14-ext.news.prodigy.com...
> > Test scores based homework and workloads
> Yes, but is there ANY evidence that those mountains
> of homework help the test scores? (I know they don't
> change the real estate prices . . .)
I don't know; I'll be sure to ask at the next district meeting.
The Ranger
Bob LeChevalier
> To me, that is an unacceptable amount of homework for
>elementary-school aged children. Where is the time for physical
>activity? Where is the time for socialization? Where is the
>time to do things with family? Where is the time to have some
>kind of responsibilities around the home?
All that has gone away in importance, because of International
Competitiveness (tm) and No Child Left Behind No Matter How Much It
Kills Them (tm)
"Family values" is something that only exists to pound on people who
dissent from Right Thinking. Thus, parents who want their kids to
socialize must not have "family values".
Or something like that.