Retrieve or 'undeleted' from Trash folder

[Paul Hudson]

Hi,

I've been using k9 for some years now and am very pleased with it. For about as long as I have been however, I've known once messages are deleted, they can't be retrieved or 'undeleted' from the Trash folder, back into the Inbox. I'd always hoped this would be addressed in an update, but as yet, not so far. Having recently changed jobs I now require email on the move more than ever and the volumes I'm processing are much higher. This means I'm finding the ability to quickly undelete inadvertently deleted emails a problem. Forwarding these messages to myself is proving an ugly, time consuming work around and this also causes indexing problems if that message requires archiving in my desktop mail client.

I suppose this also ultimately begs the question, what is the point of a trash folder, if you can't get messages back quickly & originally intact, if required?

Very much hope this might be easy to incorporate and others among the development community agree it is a worthwhile enhancement to this otherwise great app. After so long a happy user, I'd hate to have to explore other options if I can possibly avoid it.

Regards,

Paul Hudson

[Seth H Holmes]

I move email out of the trash and back to other folders with ease. You just got to the trash folder, find the message, and move it.

You may want to consider archiving mail after reading it, if you have a habit of deleting too much. Then go through your archive from time to time and delete stuff.

--
Seth H Holmes
Sent from my Nexus 7 with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

[Richard]

Is there a difference in how POP handles this?

With IMAP there isn't an issue, but my sense with POP (which I don't
use) is that moving things into the inbox isn't a supported concept
(at the protocol level). The OP doesn't explicitly indicate which he
is using.



> Date: Saturday, January 23, 2016 07:36:26 -0500
> From: Seth H Holmes <sho...@route-fu.net>

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------------ End Original Message ------------

[Seth H Holmes]

I make these strange assumptions that modern providers use IMAP.

[Paul Hudson]

Hi Richard,

Yes, it's in regard to a POP account. Just checked in my gmail imap account in k9 and Trash does have the facility to move and copy (if synced with server).

I could do with this facility in my POP accounts and I can't imagine it couldn't be supported provided a sync hadn't been enacted since the initial delete. Also, if a file replaced into the inbox after further server syncs couldn't be re-synced back to the POP server, then perhaps an export facility from files in Trash into .msg or .eml file format would be another useful work around. It would certainly be preferable to forwarding in my circumstances, where sorting wheat from lots of chaff through the day results in some inevitable mistaken deletes.

I get IMAP has some advantages over POP, but for the most part, and in particular for sorting large volumes of often "not quite spam, but almost" business email, I find POP a far more efficient management and client-side archiving protocol than IMAP.

Cheers,

Paul

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[Paul Hudson]

Hi Seth,

Yes, for a number of reasons I use POP for my business email and it doesn't have the same Trash operability in k9 as Trash appears to have.

Cheers,

Paul

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[Richard]

I do not believe that there is any facility in the POP protocol to
"re-sync back to the POP server". It's a "store and retrieve [and
delete]" (initially "retrieve only once") protocol.

Once a mail client tries to include "special capabilities" that
aren't standards-compliant things can easily go off the rails.
Something that may work with one server configuration may not work
with the next, etc. Not a direction one needing to support the
software ever wants to go in.

A good (standards-compliant) IMAP client is very flexible and will
let you manage your mail most any way you want. The ability to move
messages between (server-side) folders from a client makes it so
that you can have things show up where you want them *in any
client/in your mail-viewing environment of the moment*. I.e., your
mail view is consistent regardless of what you are using. Not
something you can do in POP.

I have never found the mail client-centric approach to mail that is
POP very useful in a multi-environment world.

POP may work well for you, but it's not a very robust protocol and
the specification isn't likely to advance very fast.




> Date: Saturday, January 23, 2016 13:46:17 +0000
> From: Paul Hudson <paul.g...@gmail.com>

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[Balaco Baco]

> I do not believe that there is any facility in the POP protocol to
> "re-sync back to the POP server". It's a "store and retrieve [and
> delete]" (initially "retrieve only once") protocol.
>

Mozilla Thunderbird, Mozilla Seamonkey and other email clients
(including webmail interfaces) have a POP3 option that "keep messages on
the server. This mean they are downloaded to the machine where the
client is running, but they are not removed from the server. I have used
this feature to "pretend" that a POP3 access only account behaved less
destructibly and as I needed it doing. My use of it was pretty much the
same for other accounts in the same client - but all other accounts were
IMAP, and did not have this option, of course.

I don't know if this is enough to say that K-9 should have this feature.
But it is possible, somehow, to make it work like that.


--
http://www.fastmail.com - IMAP accessible web-mail

[Richard]

> Date: Saturday, January 23, 2016 13:19:53 -0300
> From: Balaco Baco <balac...@imap.cc>

As I don't use POP I can't confirm that K-9 has the "keep on server"
option, but I assume it does. It's kind of kludge (that was added to
try to help with with multi-client viewing), but doesn't really
address the basic consistent client view (and folders) capabilities
that many people want at a minimum.

Also, "keep on server" isn't the same as "resyncing back to the
server". While the former is supported in the POP3 protocol, I don't
believe you'll find the latter there.

[Paul Hudson]

Guess I'll need to soldier on, for now.

I've found imap very messy on the clients I've tried and on dealing with the different classes of folder, found chrome browser is the only foolproof method of getting things 100% right. All very tiresome.

Coming from a long history of POP accounts managed on Outlook, I've got a very simple and robust system, that's foolproof at the desk-top and mostly spot-on on the move. If only I didn't have to forward inadvertently deleted emails to myself from k9's trash folder :)

Cheers,
Paul

[Paul Hudson]

k9 actually has a "keep messages on server" feature and I have it set to delete server-side. This is how I want it, so when I'm on the move, I don't need to go through what can often be lots of unwanted email again when I return to the office.

[Paul Hudson]

Just to add, for clarity, that means to say it deletes server-side what has been deleted from the inbox in k9 (hence the issue I have). Items left in the inbox in k9 remain on the server until I sync back at the office... :)

[Seth Holmes]

On 1/23/16 12:03 PM, Paul Hudson wrote:
> Just to add, for clarity, that means to say it deletes server-side what has
> been deleted from the inbox in k9 (hence the issue I have). Items left in the
> inbox in k9 remain on the server until I sync back at the office... :)

Everything you've described screams "switch to IMAP".

There is no syncing with a POP server. You can delete upon retrieval, or you
can leave it on the server, all of which can get very messy when introducing a
new POP3 client.

Most desktop POP3 clients allow you to move e-mail from the Trash back to the
INBOX. I don't know if K-9 does because I don't use POP3. But what you're
doing at that point is working with local folders on the client, you are no
longer interacting with the server.

For IMAP, you can do everything you want and more. E-mail read on one client
syncs with the server and thus all clients (if properly configured). You don't
have to mess with the various folders classes, set everything the same and be
done with it. When you get back to your desktop client, you can easily archive
e-mail to a local or server side folder. Deletions sync and you can even sync
the trash, setting to only empty the trash from the desktop client (which is
what I do). K-9 also has an Archive folder.

However, K-9 does not support creating folders or local folders. It's designed
to be both robust and portable and too many knobs can be to its detriment.

I honestly don't know why anyone bothers with POP3 when IMAP is available, and
understand less why people stick with a service that only offers POP3.

*EVERYTHING* you want to do (with the exception of local folders) is available
with IMAP.



--
Seth H Holmes

[Paul Hudson]

Thanks for the reply, Seth.

If you read my posts again, you'll see it reads that my own circumstances dictate I really don't need or wish to switch to IMAP.

You'll also see that I do use IMAP for my gmail (which I've used for many years and quite regularly *QED*) and I detest the idiosyncratic way in which different clients interact with and control the server-side. Essentially, control over the server-side is an illusion. I also detest that tidying folders to my satisfaction (which I gave up doing long ago) seems ok for a while, until something goes awry at the server and stuff migrates into various folders I didn't designate and before long, Inboxes inevitably fill with old emails. It's cluttered, frustrating and avoidable to those who might need to keep emails for a while before deciding to delete or archive.

Anyway, whoops... I don't wish to turn this into a "Quartz Watch v Mechanical Watch" type argument.

Sure, IMAP has advantages (and I do see them in various instances). But... just believe me when I say, my situation requires simple, secure and unambiguous control of contemporary and archived email (including control of individual message files) at the client-side. POP gives me that and IMAP certainly doesn't.

In summary:

*EVERYTHING* "I" want to do (including manipulation of local folders (in clients that allow)) is available with POP.  :)

Regards,

Paul

[janop...@gmail.com]

Thank you all for your input.

In my case, some of the providers I use don't even offer a mail retrieving option, they only offer POP syncing.
But even with mail servers using the IMAProtocol I haven't been able to retrieve messages from Folder Deleted to the Inbox in K9 like Seth seems to suggest in his first reaction.

I concur with you, Paul, that I shouldn't be forced to move around mails on my server(s), I'd prefer to have it fixed in K9. I've used K9 since a few months now and I'm very satisfied. However, today I accidentally moved a message from my inbox folder to my Deleted Folder and there's no way I can get it out of there (or just undo this action) with help of K9.

If there's anyway I could post this on the want list for the K9 developers I'd be interested

J

Op woensdag 27 januari 2016 12:23:14 UTC+1 schreef Paul Hudson:

[Paul Hudson]

Hi J,

This is a blast from from the past... :))

I long since gave up asking to have deleted message retrieval built into K9. If I'm still stupid enough to inadvertently delete a mail I should've kept (only very rarely nowadays ;) I just forward it from the trash to another of my email addresses and thereby recover it.

Still happily using POP for my main email needs and still 99% happily using K9... :)

Cheers,
Paul

--

Sent via Android... please excuse the brevity.

[Cindy Backstein]

There is no option to choose from that allows me to "move" a message from the Deleted Folder back to the Inbox. The only way around this that I have found is to Forward it back to myself so I get a copy back to the Inbox. I'd love a "Move " option choice!

[David B. Alexander]

I agree that it should be possible to move email from Trash to any other folder. This is how every other email client I have used, functions. Similarly, you can "Restore" from the Microsoft Recycle Bin. This should have nothing to do with whether the setup is IMAP or POP; it is a function of the K-9 client (and undeletion can synced back to the server automatically if IMAP users like that behavior). I am a happy POP user, and everything else works great, so why do the K-9 software makers ignore this functionality?

[Sean Greenslade]

On August 20, 2018 7:07:53 AM PDT, "David B. Alexander" <planett...@gmail.com> wrote:
>I agree that it should be possible to move email from Trash to any
>other
>folder. This is how every other email client I have used, functions.
>Similarly, you can "Restore" from the Microsoft Recycle Bin. This
>should
>have nothing to do with whether the setup is IMAP or POP; it is a
>function
>of the K-9 client (and undeletion can synced back to the server
>automatically if IMAP users like that behavior). I am a happy POP user,
>and
>everything else works great, so why do the K-9 software makers ignore
>this
>functionality?

Patches welcome.

But as it stands, POP does not match the mobile phone paradigm very well for most people's use cases. There are severe limitations, especially with the concept of folders (POP has no concept of folders). I suspect that if K-9 did support moving between local folders on POP accounts, we'd be getting support emails asking why these moves aren't replicated to other email clients accessing the same account.

--Sean

[David W. Jones]

Could it be done for IMAP?

FWIW, using POP with Thunderbird on PC, deleting email moves it into trash. If the client is set to delete mail on the server when I delete it in the client and I drag it out of the trash to the Inbox, I don't think it's moved back into the mail store on the server. It goes into the mail client's local mail store.


David W. Jones
gnome...@gmail.com
wandering the landscape of god
http://dancingtreefrog.com

Sent from my Android device with F/LOSS K-9 Mail.

[Sean Greenslade]

>Could it be done for IMAP?

Yes, moving between folders on IMAP works fine on K-9.

>FWIW, using POP with Thunderbird on PC, deleting email moves it into
>trash. If the client is set to delete mail on the server when I delete
>it in the client and I drag it out of the trash to the Inbox, I don't
>think it's moved back into the mail store on the server. It goes into
>the mail client's local mail store.

Indeed. POP does not have the functionality to let a client put a message back on the server, so any move / folder / label mechanics have to be entirely client-side.

--Sean

[David W. Jones]

On 08/23/2018 06:35 AM, Sean Greenslade wrote:
>> Could it be done for IMAP?
>
> Yes, moving between folders on IMAP works fine on K-9.

So would it be possible to move an email from one IMAP account to a
different IMAP account?

>> FWIW, using POP with Thunderbird on PC, deleting email moves it into
>> trash. If the client is set to delete mail on the server when I delete
>> it in the client and I drag it out of the trash to the Inbox, I don't
>> think it's moved back into the mail store on the server. It goes into
>> the mail client's local mail store.
>
> Indeed. POP does not have the functionality to let a client put a message back on the server, so any move / folder / label mechanics have to be entirely client-side.

Bummer for some, I guess. I don't use POP on my tablet, I prefer to keep
my mail stores on my PC. Where I can back them up, for instance.

--

[Sean Greenslade]

On August 23, 2018 6:24:34 PM PDT, "David W. Jones" <gnome...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On 08/23/2018 06:35 AM, Sean Greenslade wrote:
>>> Could it be done for IMAP?
>>
>> Yes, moving between folders on IMAP works fine on K-9.
>
>So would it be possible to move an email from one IMAP account to a
>different IMAP account?

It would be a different action, but yes it is possible to implement. If it's on the same account, it can just issue an IMAP MOVE command. To move between accounts, it has to create a new message on the destination account and expunge it from the source account.

--Sean

[David W. Jones]

That would be useful. I have one main email account I use and keep
things in. The others are only used to send/receive mail specific to
those accounts.

[Greg Troxel]

Sean Greenslade <se...@seangreenslade.com> writes:

>>Could it be done for IMAP?
>
> Yes, moving between folders on IMAP works fine on K-9.

In general yes. But I have an issue quite often, which I'll try to
describe.

(everything is about a single IMAP account)

see INBOX, and view some message

hit delete (which moves it to trash)

realize I actually still want the message

go back to folder list with upper left

select trash

see message at top, select it

do move/refile/INBOX and get an error: "Cannot copy or move a message
which is not synchronized with the server"

remember that in k-9, local modifications to folders are not synced
automatically, but only as part of doing a full folder sync

hit sync, and have it push that message back to the server, remove
messages that are local but not longer on server, and get messages
deleted with other clients, limited to 100

do the refile again and ahve it work

The issues are

the user shouldn't have to be aware of whether a message is synced
back yet. If it's in the local folder view it should be movable even
if the move operation is stacked behind the writeback operation. Or
if the message is only in the local view, not synced, it can be moved
and the local state deleted, all without writing to the server. I
know, this is hard, and ENOPATCH.

another way to think of this is that there is the cached information
of server folder state, and then local modifications, kind of as a
writeback cache. And things that operate on the folder should
function on a logical view that is the cache contents, not the pure
copy of the server. Put this way, it's still hard :-)

local modifications should arguably make it back to the server
automatically, perhaps with operations starting right away, perhaps
with a delay

the idea of writing changes to the server while not fetching updates
(because this folder is not asked to be synced) is intrinisically
difficult, as it's a sort of partial sync with messy semantics. But
it seems doable to write messages that are added, separately from
getting a list of server messages and fetching those we don't have and
deleting those that are no longer there.

[Sean Greenslade]

I agree that this can be somewhat annoying. It's apparently a
long-standing issue:

https://github.com/k9mail/k-9/issues/823

https://code.google.com/archive/p/k9mail/issues/861

But as with everything, it's a matter of developer time and interest.
Patches are always welcome.

--Sean

[Greg Troxel]

Sean Greenslade <se...@seangreenslade.com> writes:

>> the idea of writing changes to the server while not fetching updates
>> (because this folder is not asked to be synced) is intrinisically
>> difficult, as it's a sort of partial sync with messy semantics. But
>> it seems doable to write messages that are added, separately from
>> getting a list of server messages and fetching those we don't have and
>> deleting those that are no longer there.
>
> I agree that this can be somewhat annoying. It's apparently a
> long-standing issue:
>
> https://github.com/k9mail/k-9/issues/823
>
> https://code.google.com/archive/p/k9mail/issues/861

Thanks. I did not remember that there was such a clear bug open, or
that I am subscribed to it :-)

The second link is broken (but that's ok).

> But as with everything, it's a matter of developer time and interest.
> Patches are always welcome.

Understood, and I'm very happy to be able to use k-9 as is.