What was inside the Saint-Michel?

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Alex Kirstukas

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Feb 28, 2024, 8:21:29 AMFeb 28
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Hi Verne friends,

I'm doing some work on Paul Verne's "De Rotterdam à Copenhague," with its lovely glimpses of Jules in travel mode, and have come across a detail that has me baffled. Here's part of the description of the inside of the Saint-Michel:

"À l’avant, la salle à manger est desservie par un escalier à quart de révolution, qui descend entre la chambre du capitaine et l’office, et elle communique avec la cuisine au moyen d’un tour."

The beginning makes sense - a quarter-turn staircase between the captain’s cabin and the pantry leads to the dining parlor - but the last word gets me. Maybe it's just my ignorance of shipbuilding, but I can't find any meaning of tour, no matter how obscure, that makes sense here.

Any idea what he's on about?

Cheers,

Alex

mken...@aol.com

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Feb 28, 2024, 8:27:47 AMFeb 28
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Hi Alex,
Here’s what I found:
tour(2) subst. masc.
2. Boîte, armoire cylindrique tournant sur un pivot, encastrée dans un mur et servant à faire passer quelque chose, à communiquer.
Cheers,
Matthias

Jean-Yves Paumier

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Feb 28, 2024, 10:39:46 AMFeb 28
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Bonjour,

Cette mention est en effet incompréhensible. La raison est une mauvaise transcription du livre « Jules Verne par Jean Jules-Verne » paru chez Hachette en 1973.

Voici donc le texte du livre, page 190. Pas question de tour…

Vous voilà rassuré !

Amitiés

Jean-Yves Paumier

5 rue Marivaux

44000 Nantes

 

De : <jules-ve...@googlegroups.com> au nom de Alex Kirstukas <alex.ki...@gmail.com>
Répondre à : <jules-ve...@googlegroups.com>
Date : mercredi 28 février 2024 à 14:21
À : Jules Verne Forum <jules-ve...@googlegroups.com>
Objet : [JVF] What was inside the Saint-Michel?

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JV Texte deu livre "Jules Verne par JeanJules-Verne".jpeg

mken...@aol.com

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Feb 28, 2024, 11:19:19 AMFeb 28
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Bonjour,
Bien cordialement
Matthias
Verne_-_La_Jangada,_1881_,_t2.djvu.jpg

comperedaniel

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Feb 28, 2024, 11:37:58 AMFeb 28
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Bonjour,

Le « tour » est un passe-plat, une ouverture dans un mur pour faire passer les plats de la cuisine vers la salle à manger.
C’est un serving hatch.

Amitiés,

Daniel


Le 28 févr. 2024 à 17:19, 'mken...@aol.com' via Jules Verne Forum <jules-ve...@googlegroups.com> a écrit :

Bonjour,
Bien cordialement
Matthias
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/jules-verne-forum/44b2c3fb-2eef-4c5f-9802-b3229b521039n%40googlegroups.com.
<Verne_-_La_Jangada,_1881_,_t2.djvu.jpg>

Jan Rychlík

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Feb 28, 2024, 5:08:59 PMFeb 28
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My Czech translation (still pending publication) was: "The dining room is connected to the kitchen by a rotating food feeder."

Christian Sánchez

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Feb 28, 2024, 9:49:29 PMFeb 28
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The oldest Spanish translation says: "En la proa, el comedor está servido por una escalera de un cuarto de revolución, que baja entre la cámara del capitán y la despensa, y comunica con la cocina por medio de un torno."

tour: Boîte, armoire cylindrique tournant sur un pivot, encastrée dans un mur et servant à faire passer quelque chose, à communiquer.

torno: Armazón giratoria compuesta de varios tableros verticales que concurren en un eje, con suelo y techo circulares, empleada para pasar objetos de una parte a otra, como en los conventos de clausura.

Don Sample

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Feb 29, 2024, 2:24:54 AMFeb 29
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I think that the English expression for the device would be a “lazy Suzan.”

On Feb 28, 2024, at 9:49 PM, Christian Sánchez <chvsa...@gmail.com> wrote:



Rafael Ontivero

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Feb 29, 2024, 3:48:02 AMFeb 29
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To complement Christian comment, attached is the capture. I think Jubera has been the only that published this story. It is the 34th one, joined with 10 hours of chase, and should appear in Volume 5 of the collection.

At least the story hasn’t been published in the “big” collections, Plaza & Janés, Aguilar, Molino, Sopena… nor in the “modern” ones like RBA. 

If someone is interested in a facsimile copy of the story, I have it scanned from my own collection.

Captura de pantalla 2024-02-29 a las 9.38.54.png

Jan Rychlík

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Feb 29, 2024, 4:30:52 AMFeb 29
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I am tempted to switch to another text of Verne which also describes the interiors of a boat, this time of Tankadère. Of 6 Czech translators of Le Tour du Monde en 80 jours only 1 or 2 succeeded in translating this paragraph in Chapter 20 correctly. Underlined are the words that mostly caused confusion: 

Phileas Fogg et Mrs. Aouda passèrent à bord. Fix s'y trouvait déjà. Par le capot d'arrière de la goélette, on descendait dans une chambre carrée, dont les parois s'évidaient en forme de cadres, au dessus d'un divan circulaire. Au milieu, une table éclairée par une lampe de roulis. C'était petit, mais propre.

I am intrested in how successful were other translators.


To complement Christian comment, attached is the capture. I think Jubera has been the only that published this story. It is the 34th one, joined with 10 hours of chase, and should appear in Volume 5 of the collection.
Captura de pantalla 2024-02-29 a las 9.38.54.png

Jean-Yves Paumier

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Feb 29, 2024, 4:35:33 AMFeb 29
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Désolé, j’avais directement pensé au livre de Jean Jules-Verne. Manifestement, il a repris quelques textes existants !

Jean-Yves

 

De : Alain Braut <alain...@free.fr>
Date : mercredi 28 février 2024 à 17:31
À : <jules-ve...@googlegroups.com>, Jean-Yves Paumier <jean-yve...@orange.fr>
Objet : Re: [JVF] What was inside the Saint-Michel?

 

Jean-Yves,
il s'agit bien d'un tour dans le texte original.

Un tour, entre une salle à manger et une cuisine, permet de faire passer les plats ou autres:

cid:part1.BFE51817.CFF28865@free.fr


BR,
Alain


Jean-Yves Puyo

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Feb 29, 2024, 4:47:10 AMFeb 29
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Dear colleague,

And yet these are fairly simple French terms, which shouldn't have caused any problems.

« Carrée » : square shaped

« Évidées »   : issu de « vide » : hollowed / une forme évidée : recessed shape

« cadre » - « cadre d’un tableau »… : a framework

« Circulaire » - de forme circulaire : Circular shape

Bien cordialement,


Jean-Yves Puyo



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Rafael Ontivero

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Feb 29, 2024, 5:15:11 AMFeb 29
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In all my scanned editions:

Plaza / Janés / Orbis:
=================
Phileas Fogg y Mrs. Aouda pasaron a bordo, donde ya se encontraba Fix. Por la carroza de popa de la goleta se bajaba a una cámara cuadrada, cuyas paredes se arqueaban por encima de un diván circular. En medio había una mesa alumbrada por una lámpara a prueba de oscilaciones. Era todo pequeño, pero limpio. 


Jubera/Gaspar y Roig/RBA:
======================
Phhileas Fogg y mistress Aouda pasaron a bordo, donde ya se encon­traba Fix. Por la carroza de popa de la goleta se bajaba a una cámara cua­drada, cuyas paredes se arqueaban por encima de un diván circular. En medio había una mesa, alumbrada por una lámpara a prueba de vaivén. Era muy pequeño, pero estaba muy limpio. 

(RBA removes some old diacritic symbols not used in Spanish anymore)

Aguilar:
======
Phileas Fogg y mistress Auda pasaron a bordo. Fix se encontraba ya allí. Por la cubierta metálica de popa de la goleta se bajaba a una cámara cua­ drada, cuyas paredes formaban una especie de marco sobre un diván circular. En el centro, una mesa iluminada por una lámpara de balanceo. Era pequeña, pero limpia.

I have other editions in paper not (yet) scanned. If I don’t have them in Spain, I will look to them later. And “carroza” is a right term in Spanish, as it is the 4th entry in the RAE, and is a marine word: https://dle.rae.es/carroza

Alex Kirstukas

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Feb 29, 2024, 7:27:37 AMFeb 29
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Thank you all for your insights on the Saint-Michel question! Clearly it's time for me to replace my go-to French dictionary, which has dozens of definitions for tour but not this one. The equivalent 19th-century English term looks to be "turning-box."

Regarding the Tankadère, here are the first four English-language translations:

- Anonymous, Round the World on a Wager (1873): "Mr. Fogg and Madame Aouda went on board. Fix was there already. By the companion way in the rear of the schooner they descended into a square room whose walls were hollowed in the form of cots above a circular divan. In the centre a table lighted by a swinging lamp. It was small but very neat."

- Towle, The Tour of the World in Eighty Days (1873), and Towle/D'Anvers, Around the World in Eighty Days (1873): "Phileas Fogg and Aouda went on board, where they found Fix already installed. Below deck was a square cabin, of which the walls bulged out in the form of cots, above a circular divan; in the centre was a table provided with a swinging lamp. The accommodation was confined, but neat."

- White, The Tour of the World in Eighty Days (1874): "Phileas Fogg and Mrs. Aouda went on board. Fix was already there. They went down by steps in the rear of the schooner into a square cabin, whose walls bulged out in the form of cots, above a circular divan. In the middle there was a table lighted by a hanging lamp. It was small, but neat."

- Frith, Round the World in Eighty Days (1878): "Phileas Fogg and Mrs. Aouda went on board, where they found Fix already installed. The accommodation was not extensive, but everything was clean and neat."

Nowadays "bunks" would feel like a more obvious rendering than "cots," but Towle, D'Anvers, and White all have the right idea; Anonymous basically gets it but has trouble with s'évidaient; and Frith, following a frequent tendency of his, doesn't bother trying at all.



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Jan Rychlik

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Mar 1, 2024, 7:05:34 AMMar 1
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I think that the problem is that these are general meaning of the words, not their figurative sense, such as officers’ cabin (carré), sailors’ bed (cadre) and circling the cabin (circulaire).

Let´s see how the Czech translators fell into this trap:

1873: Phileas Fogg and Mrs. Aouda went on deck. Fix was already there. Under the canopy at the stern of the goëletta, stairs led down to a square cabin, whose walls were hollowed out in the form of niches above the sofa running all around. In the middle stood a table lit by a hanging lamp. It was small but clean.  

1884: Phileas Fogg and Mrs. Aouda boarded the ship. Fix was already there. They entered a square cabin with a divan all around. In the middle was a table with a lamp. It was small, but clean. (no mention of beds)

1900 (in print): Phileas Fogg and Aouda boarded the ship. Fix was already there. Through the back trapdoor of the goeletta one entered a square room, in the walls of which there were beds above the circular sofa. In the middle was a table lit by a nautical lamp. The room was small, but cozy.

1951: Phileas Fogg went on deck with Aouda, and Fix was already there. Through the rear hatch of the Tankadere, one entered a square room, the walls of which were inlaid with wood. A circular divan ran around the entire perimeter. In the middle stood a table, lit by a lamp which was secured against swaying. It was a small but clean place.

1959 (in print): Phileas Fogg and Aouda went on deck. Fix was already there. Through the stern shelter of the schooner one could descend into a square room in which the ribbed vault formed a hollowed-out lattice above a circular sofa. In the middle stood a table lit by a hanging lamp. The room was small but clean. 

29. 2. 2024 v 10:47, Jean-Yves Puyo <jean-yv...@univ-pau.fr>:


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RFOG (Gmail)

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Mar 2, 2024, 5:00:57 AMMar 2
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Just remembered this.

From Sopena, about 193x:

Phileas Fogg y Aouda pasaron a bordo, donde ya se encontraba Fix. Por el alćazar de popa de la goleta se descendía a una cámara cuadrada cuyos tabiques se arqueaban sobre un diván circular. En el centro había una mesa, alumbrada por una lámpara a prueba de banzazos. Todo era pequeño, pero muy limpio.


And the other I have si from Alianza Editorial, translated by Miguel Salabert, and could be one of the best translations I know:

Phileas Fogg y Aouda subieron a bordo, donde ya se hallaba Fix. Por el tambuco de popa se descendía a un camarote cuadrado de paredes curvas, en el que había un diván circular. En el centro, una mesa iluminada por una lámpara fijada a la misma.

Mmmmm, it omits the part related to the little and clean space.

Alex Kirstukas

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Mar 2, 2024, 5:56:02 AMMar 2
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Fascinating! I don't know of a single English translation that catches those nuances for "carré" and "circulaire" - even the high-quality renderings by Glencross, Butcher, Walter, Desages, and the Baldicks translate the one as square and the other as circular. (Or, in Glencross's quirky formulation, "round-shaped.") It looks like the Spanish translations are the same way.

Makes me wonder - can we be sure that Verne's "chambre carré" DOES mean an officer's cabin? Certainly "carré" as a noun means a lieutenant's cabin - the equivalent English term is "ward room" - but I'm coming up empty looking for the noun-adjective phrase "chambre carré" in this context. Maybe Verne really does just mean a square room after all?



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Jan Rychlík

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Mar 2, 2024, 6:31:24 AMMar 2
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I do not think that it is so wrong to translate chambre carré as square cabin, but waste majority of cabins is of that shape, so why JV would have stressed it... 
Surely one meaning of the word circular is perimeter (while in Czech there are two distinct words), it is only my first impression that there was a sofa of circular shape in the cabin, not that the sofa run all along the walls.
The fact that some of the translators who otherwise were not abridging the text skipped the description of the cabin make me conclude that they did not understand the meaning.


Jan Rychlík

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Mar 2, 2024, 7:18:16 AMMar 2
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Thank you Rafael,
since I do not know Spanish I have to use GoogleTranslator, hence I am not sure when I say that none of the 5 translations mentions the bunks.
Jan


Just remembered this.

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mken...@aol.com

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Mar 2, 2024, 4:52:35 PMMar 2
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« Makes me wonder - can we be sure that Verne's "chambre carré" DOES mean an officer's cabin? Certainly "carré" as a noun means a lieutenant's cabin - the equivalent English term is "ward room" - but I'm coming up empty looking for the noun-adjective phrase "chambre carré" in this context. Maybe Verne really does just mean a square room after all? »
Who said it means or could mean an officer’s cabin? (Maybe I have missed something.) My guess would be: The outer shape of a ship is normally rounded, so it would not be unusual to have non-square rooms in a ship, right? But it’s really just a guess. I do not have exact knowledge of what the inside of 19th ct. ships looked like, i. e. how common square and non-square rooms were aboard old ships.

mken...@aol.com

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Mar 2, 2024, 4:56:46 PMMar 2
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«Who said it means or could mean an officer’s cabin? (Maybe I have missed something.)»
Sorry, I should have looked closer… now I have found it (one of Jan’s messages above).

Jan Rychlík

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Mar 2, 2024, 6:11:51 PMMar 2
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I think that by using the word carré Verne wanted to stress that it was not a individual cabin but a shared one (such as Carré des officiers, pièce commune réservée aux officiers d’un navire de guerre, https://www.dictionnaire-academie.fr/article/A9C0901). 

Below are all the remaining translations I was able to find on line, roughly translated to English using GoogleTranslator. These seem mostly OK except for the Slovak one. The translator, while having rendered in full one of the preceding paragraphs describing the sails of Tankadere (always difficult task for people from a land locked country), also gave up and remained silent about sofa and the bunks:
Dutch (1874): Phileas Fogg and Aouda now went on board. Fix was already there. Through a door at the stern one entered a square cabin, the walls of which were divided into square compartments above a divan. In the middle was a table above which hung a lamp. Everything was small, but neat.
German (1875): Phileas Fogg and Mrs. Aouda came on board. Fix was already there. The rear gap led to a quadrangular room, the walls of which widened over a round divan into beds. In the middle is a table with a hanging lamp. Everything was cramped but clean.
Italian (1914): Phileas Fogg and Mistress Auda entered the board. Fix was already there. Through the stern hatch of the schooner, one descended into a square room whose walls were hollowed out, in the shape of squares, above a circular sofa. In the middle, a board lit by a roll lamp. All small, but clean.
Russian (1956): Phileas Fogg and Mrs. Auda boarded the schooner. Fix was already there. Through a hatch at the rear of the vessel, the travelers descended into the square a cabin with niches in the walls for bunks. In the middle, under a bright lamp, there was a table. In the cabin was cramped but clean.
Hungarian (ca 1950s): Phileas Fogg and Mrs. Auda boarded. Fix was already found on the ship. From under the back lid of the sailboat, a staircase led to a rectangular room, with a framed hammock next to each wall, and a circular couch underneath. In the middle, a swinging lamp shone light on a table. The room was small but clean.
Slovak (1961): Phileas Fogg and Ms. Auda boarded. Fix was already there. Under the schooner's rear canopy, one could descend into a square room. In the middle stood a table, illuminated by the ship's hanging lamp. The room was small but clean.

mken...@aol.com

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Mar 2, 2024, 6:38:11 PMMar 2
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«I think that by using the word carré Verne wanted to stress that it was not a individual cabin but a shared one (such as Carré des officiers, pièce commune réservée aux officiers d’un navire de guerre, https://www.dictionnaire-academie.fr/article/A9C0901).»
But as Alex pointed out, ‹carré› is clearly an adjective in this context. See here:
The meaning you assign to it is also absent from the Littré:
What I wanted to say above is: If non-square rooms are not rare aboard ships, then why not mention the shape of the room? In buildings, the vast majority of rooms is square-shaped, but not necessarily so aboard ships. When it does not go without saying that a room is square, then why not say it?
Message has been deleted

Don Sample

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Mar 2, 2024, 10:57:32 PMMar 2
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Many rooms on ships are not square. Hulls tend to taper to points at the front, so many cabins will be trapezoidal.

On Mar 2, 2024, at 6:38 PM, 'mken...@aol.com' via Jules Verne Forum <jules-ve...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

«I think that by using the word carré Verne wanted to stress that it was not a individual cabin but a shared one (such as Carré des officiers, pièce commune réservée aux officiers d’un navire de guerre, https://www.dictionnaire-academie.fr/article/A9C0901).»

Jan Rychlík

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Mar 3, 2024, 3:33:57 AMMar 3
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Meanwhile I have checked the plan of the Ghoast in my copy of London's Sea Wolf to understand this objection. And of course, une chambre carrée is conclusively a room of square shape. 
Antoher quote from Tour du monde is applicable to me :)
Deux heures suffisaient à visiter cette ville absolument américaine et, comme telle, bâtie sur le patron de toutes les villes de l'Union, vastes échiquiers à longues lignes froides, avec la « tristesse lugubre des angles droits », suivant l'expression de Victor Hugo. Le fondateur de la Cité des Saints ne pouvait échapper à ce besoin de symétrie qui distingue les Anglo-Saxons. Dans ce singulier pays, où les hommes ne sont certainement pas à la hauteur des institutions, tout se fait « carrément », les villes, les maisons et les sottises. (Chpt 27)

Jan Rychlík

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Mar 3, 2024, 4:01:45 AMMar 3
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As for circulaire, I ment the translation to Czech language in which there are two distinct words for two different meanings of the French word. To substitute one for the other creates confusion (which is the case for the 1959 translation) as does using both words together (1951 translation: "a divan in the shape of a circle ran around the entire chamber")

As for cadre, I am not quite sure if I understand: is it intended to sleep in it (even though it was not used by the passengers of the Tankadere)?


Phileas Fogg et Mrs. Aouda passèrent à bord. Fix s'y trouvait déjà. Par le capot d'arrière de la goélette, on descendait dans une chambre carrée, dont les parois s'évidaient en forme de cadres, au dessus d'un divan circulaire. Au milieu, une table éclairée par une lampe de roulis. C'était petit, mais propre.

I believe it's crucial to interpret those words literally. A "chambre carrée" translates to a "square cabin," and including the adjective is essential to avoid any confusion with a potential "round cabin" implied by the "divan circulaire." It's worth noting that this doesn't mean the "divan circulaire" is a "round divan."

It's important to clarify that "cadre" is not synonymous with "bunk." In fact, passengers aboard the ship slept on the divan, as detailed in the next chapter. Furthermore, the real "Saint Michel" also provides divans for sleeping: "de ce salon en acajou, dont les divans peuvent se transformer en couchettes" (De Rotterdam à Copenhague).



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mken...@aol.com

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Mar 3, 2024, 10:59:31 AMMar 3
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«As for cadre, I am not quite sure if I understand: is it intended to sleep in it (even though it was not used by the passengers of the Tankadere)?»
Professor Cosack says in his notes to TM: "see p. 169 of the original text: Fix s’était couché sur l’un des cadres“.
It’s not « couché », though, but « étendu », see here: https://fr.wikisource.org/wiki/Page%3AVerne_-_Le_Tour_du_monde_en_quatre-vingts_jours.djvu/119

prof cosack anmerkungen20240303_153846.jpg

wbutch...@gmail.com

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Mar 4, 2024, 6:41:54 PMMar 4
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How about ward-room to translate chambre-carré?

Jan Rychlík

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Mar 6, 2024, 4:38:22 AMMar 6
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Good idea! 
I add another Czech translation of 1907 which I did not have at hand. The translator, although having rendered "elle portait brigantine, misaine, trinquette, focs, flèches" as "all the possible sails" in one of the preceding paragraphs of chapter 20, translates the description of cabin in full, but in the same wrong way as did the Italian translator ("frames" for "cadres"):
Phileas Fogg and Madame Auda went on deck. Fix was already there. Through a dormer-window [sic] at the rear of the boat they entered a square room, the walls of which had been hollowed out in the form of frames above the couch standing all around. In the middle was a table, lit by a hanging lamp. It was small but clean.


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