Quote: true or false?

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Christian Sánchez

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Feb 20, 2021, 1:28:12 PMFeb 20
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El viaje más maravilloso no es al centro de la tierra ni a los confines del universo; es al fondo de sí mismo

Julio Verne

RFOG

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Feb 22, 2021, 9:16:27 AMFeb 22
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False. At least not in all Spanish translations. "Universo" appears only in 25 books, and note of those has a near reference to that phrase.

El sáb, 20 feb 2021 a las 19:28, Christian Sánchez (<chvsa...@gmail.com>) escribió:

El viaje más maravilloso no es al centro de la tierra ni a los confines del universo; es al fondo de sí mismo

Julio Verne

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James Keeline

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Feb 22, 2021, 11:29:43 AMFeb 22
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My wife and I were looking at this while waiting for our food at a take-out.  We had a passable translation between our collective mental efforts and once we had it, I could not think of any Verne story with something like this.

Many famous people have false quotes attributed to them that cannot be found in their published writings.  Verne has several.  As I recall, there is a page with some analysis of some of these quotes.  I thought it was on Andrew Nash's site https://JulesVerne.ca but I don't see it there with a few searches.

An example of a fake (or to be charitable undocumented) quote is on many websites but unfound in his texts:

"Anything one man can imagine, other men can make real"

The French version is purported to be:

"Tout ce qu'un homme est capable d'imaginer, d'autres hommes seront capable de la réaliser."

It sounds great and seems like the kind of thing he might say or write in his optimistic period.  The sites that mention it will variously attribute it to Around the World in Eighty Days, Journey to the Center of the Earth, or The Master of the World.  Eighty Days is tricky because there are so many translations to English of it.

One book mentioned that Willy Ley cited the French text of this quotation.  He was a science consultant and author in the U.S. who was influential in the 1950s.  Here is one reference to this (if the group allows for attached images):

Inline image


We have seen elsewhere that there are English translations which are highly unreliable and the translators added material that cannot be found in Verne's French texts (periodical or book editions).

In the imagine quote, I have read that it originated from the early biography of Verne by his relative, Marguerite Alotte de la Fuÿe.  However, when I look at an English translation of that from Coward-McCann in 1953, I see this as similar as a quote for the heading of chapter 9, Body and Mind, p. 67:

"Everything that I invent, everything that I imagine, will always fall short of the truth, because there will come a time when the creations of science will outstrip those of the imagination.

— A letter from Jules Verne to Charles Lemire"

Obviously letters are valid sources of quotations but much harder to trace than published texts.  This is without a date (which I think is important for a quotation citation) but at least does try to provide context (assuming it is real).

I the world of Walt Disney, there are fake quotes in abundance.  A documented example is:

"If you can dream it you can do it."

This seems like a similar theme to the Verne quote above in some ways.  It's the kind of thing that is treated as an inspiration on clothing, wall decor, etc.  Even the Walt Disney Company has used it on merchandise.  But it was written by another person, decades after Walt's death in 1966.

It will take some of our members with stronger French skills than I have as well as access to nearly all of his works to render a verdict on whether these Verne quotes are authentic or misapplied to the author.

James D. Keeline


Alex Kirstukas

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Feb 22, 2021, 12:00:00 PMFeb 22
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Yep, this looks, sounds, and smells like an apocryphal quote. Is it maybe from a Verne-inspired film? It sounds like it could have come from 1888, el extraordinario viaje de la Santa Isabel, the 2005 Venezuelan adaptation of The Mighty Orinoco.

Regarding "Tout ce qu'un homme est capable d'imaginer...", Allotte de la Fuye claims it comes from an 1870 letter from Jules to his father. In the Coward-McCann translation (at least the 1956 edition), it's on page 128.

Can anybody verify this, or is it another of Allotte's inventions—perhaps inspired by Nadar's motto "Tout ce qui est possible se fera" (Everything that is possible will happen)?


James Keeline

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Feb 22, 2021, 12:01:10 PMFeb 22
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Here is the website I was thinking of.  A search for the French quote revealed it.  Thanks to Garmt for the analysis of this quote.  Perhaps there is more to say about it.



James D. Keeline

An example of a fake (or to be charitable undocumented) quote is on many websites but unfound in his texts:

Crovisier Jacques

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Feb 22, 2021, 2:45:56 PMFeb 22
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"Tout ce qu'un homme est capable d'imaginer, d'autres hommes seront capable
de le réaliser."

I was told - but unfortunately I have no photo - that this mis-quote is so
famous that it is written in France on the front of several schools named
after Jules Verne.

As matter of fact, a rather close citation appears in "La Maison à vapeur"
("The Steam House"): « Tout ce qui est dans la limite du possible doit être
et sera accompli ».

Jacques Crovisier



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* Jacques Crovisier
* Jacques....@obspm.fr tel 33 (0)145077599
* http://www.lesia.obspm.fr/perso/jacques-crovisier/
* Observatoire de Paris, LESIA, Bat. 17B
* 5 place Jules Janssen, 92195 Meudon, France
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Le Lundi 22 Février 2021 17:29 CET, James Keeline <ja...@keeline.com> a écrit:

> My wife and I were looking at this while waiting for our food at a take-out.  We had a passable translation between our collective mental efforts and once we had it, I could not think of any Verne story with something like this.
> Many famous people have false quotes attributed to them that cannot be found in their published writings.  Verne has several.  As I recall, there is a page with some analysis of some of these quotes.  I thought it was on Andrew Nash's site https://JulesVerne.ca but I don't see it there with a few searches.
> An example of a fake (or to be charitable undocumented) quote is on many websites but unfound in his texts:
>
> "Anything one man can imagine, other men can make real"
>
> The French version is purported to be:
>
> "Tout ce qu'un homme est capable d'imaginer, d'autres hommes seront capable de la réaliser."
>
>
> It sounds great and seems like the kind of thing he might say or write in his optimistic period.  The sites that mention it will variously attribute it to Around the World in Eighty Days, Journey to the Center of the Earth, or The Master of the World.  Eighty Days is tricky because there are so many translations to English of it.
> One book mentioned that Willy Ley cited the French text of this quotation.  He was a science consultant and author in the U.S. who was influential in the 1950s.  Here is one reference to this (if the group allows for attached images):
>
>
>
> We have seen elsewhere that there are English translations which are highly unreliable and the translators added material that cannot be found in Verne's French texts (periodical or book editions).
> In the imagine quote, I have read that it originated from the early biography of Verne by his relative, Marguerite Alotte de la Fuÿe.  However, when I look at an English translation of that from Coward-McCann in 1953, I see this as similar as a quote for the heading of chapter 9, Body and Mind, p. 67:
>
> "Everything that I invent, everything that I imagine, will always fall short of the truth, because there will come a time when the creations of science will outstrip those of the imagination.
> — A letter from Jules Verne to Charles Lemire"
>
> Obviously letters are valid sources of quotations but much harder to trace than published texts.  This is without a date (which I think is important for a quotation citation) but at least does try to provide context (assuming it is real).
> I the world of Walt Disney, there are fake quotes in abundance.  A documented example is:
>
> "If you can dream it you can do it."
>
> This seems like a similar theme to the Verne quote above in some ways.  It's the kind of thing that is treated as an inspiration on clothing, wall decor, etc.  Even the Walt Disney Company has used it on merchandise.  But it was written by another person, decades after Walt's death in 1966.
> It will take some of our members with stronger French skills than I have as well as access to nearly all of his works to render a verdict on whether these Verne quotes are authentic or misapplied to the author.
> James D. Keeline
>
>
> On Monday, February 22, 2021, 06:17:13 AM PST, RFOG <rafael....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> False. At least not in all Spanish translations. "Universo" appears only in 25 books, and note of those has a near reference to that phrase.
> El sáb, 20 feb 2021 a las 19:28, Christian Sánchez (<chvsa...@gmail.com>) escribió:
>
>
> El viaje más maravilloso no es al centro de la tierra ni a los confines del universo; es al fondo de sí mismo
> Julio Verne
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Jules Verne Forum" group.
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>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Jules Verne Forum" group.
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Marie-Hélène Huet

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Feb 22, 2021, 3:34:17 PMFeb 22
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Marguerite Allotte de la Füye attributes to Jules Verne the following quote: "Qoique mon livre Vingt mille lieues sous les mers soit entièrement une oeuvre d'imagination, je suis convaincu que tout ce qui y est écrit se réalisera point par point" (p. 208, Hachette edition, no source provided).

"Although my book, Twenty Thousand Leagues under the seas is entirely a work of imagination, I am convinced that everything [I have] written in it will be realized in every detail."

I cannot remember all the details of the Entretiens between J. Verne and his visitors, but the sentence first quoted in this exchange might also have come from one of these conversations.
 
Marie-Hélène Huet


From: jules-ve...@googlegroups.com <jules-ve...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Crovisier Jacques <Jacques....@obspm.fr>
Sent: Monday, February 22, 2021 14:45
To: jules-ve...@googlegroups.com <jules-ve...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [JVF] Quote: true or false?
 

Garmt de Vries-Uiterweerd

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Feb 22, 2021, 4:36:24 PMFeb 22
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I believe that Jules Verne and Albert Einstein may be the two most misquoted people in history :)

On Sat, 20 Feb 2021 at 19:28, Christian Sánchez <chvsa...@gmail.com> wrote:

El viaje más maravilloso no es al centro de la tierra ni a los confines del universo; es al fondo de sí mismo

Julio Verne

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James Keeline

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Feb 22, 2021, 5:04:16 PMFeb 22
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There is an expression that says "pictures or it didn't happen."  With quotes, it should be a requirement to provide when and where it appeared.  I know this won't happen but without this citation, it is just as likely to be a fabrication as it is a real quote.  Here is an Internet meme that expresses this concept pretty well.

Inline image


James D. Keeline


Jean-Pierre Boutin

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Feb 23, 2021, 1:11:31 AMFeb 23
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Une traduction en français de cette phrase me semble être : "Le voyage le plus merveilleux n'est pas au centre de la terre ou aux extrémités de l'univers mais au plus profond de soi-même ». Si elle n’est pas de JV, quelqu’un connaît-il son auteur?


A French translation of this sentence seems to me to be:  "Le voyage le plus merveilleux n'est pas au centre de la terre ou aux extrémités de l'univers mais au plus profond de soi-même » If it is not from JV, does anyone know its author?



Le 20 févr. 2021 à 19:27, Christian Sánchez <chvsa...@gmail.com> a écrit :

El viaje más maravilloso no es al centro de la tierra ni a los confines del universo; es al fondo de sí mismo
Julio Verne

Jan Rychlik

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Feb 23, 2021, 5:06:43 AMFeb 23
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It seems that this is the place from where the slogan by Mme. Allotte must have come from. The original is pretty conservative one compared to the well know apocryphal quote.

>
> 22. 2. 2021 v 20:46, Crovisier Jacques <Jacques....@obspm.fr>:
>
> "Tout ce qu'un homme est capable d'imaginer, d'autres hommes seront capable
> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/jules-verne-forum/e52-60340a00-b1-7114e780%4062712664.

rfb...@aol.com

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Feb 23, 2021, 5:59:41 AMFeb 23
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Fake Lincoln quotes are another perennial (one Lincoln expert compiled a book of 'em.) Al Gore found out one of his favorites was actually an 1890's Populist Party fabrication in the 2000 Presidential campaign here. (Mark Twain is the USA's other favorite deuterocanonical oracle -- the recent passing of controversial radio figure Rush Limbaugh led to much discussion a quote about obituaries many were citing to Twain appears instead to be from Clarence Darrow . . . probably!)
Ross


-----Original Message-----
From: James Keeline <ja...@keeline.com>
To: jules-ve...@googlegroups.com <jules-ve...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Mon, Feb 22, 2021 5:04 pm
Subject: Re: [JVF] Quote: true or false?

Christian Sánchez

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Feb 25, 2021, 8:48:46 AMFeb 25
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Great exchange, just like the good old days!
Thanks.

James Keeline

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Feb 25, 2021, 10:28:17 PMFeb 25
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The Wikipedia.org project also has https://WikiQuote.org which attempts to compile a free resource of cited interesting quotations from someone like Jules Verne.  As with Wikipedia, anyone can contribute and edit and this has both positive and negative aspects.  This is the Jules Verne entry and it is not very long right now.  

However, on many of the citations, I notice that the name of the translator and/or edition of the book containing the rendering of the quote provided is absent.  Often the chapter number and name is provided but not always.  It depends on the contributor(s) and editor(s) who have touched the page.

It seems like the issue of complete citation must come up for any translated author where there are multiple translations (to English in this case) with varying levels of quality and fidelity to the original source text.  Some of the quotes and translations provided are attributed to William Butcher but others are unattributed to person or publisher.  

There is some flagging of quotes which are part of an English translation but have no source in a French text by Verne.

As with Wikipedia, material in WikiQuote tends to spread to other websites with listings of quotes because of the Creative Commons licensing that they apply to the site.  A fix made today may not be retained a year or a week from now.  Such is the nature of community-edited projects.  However, since they have sections for types of quotes, it can be a place to document some of the issues.  Here is their policy page on sourcing:


Basically there are authentic quotes, attributed quotes, misattributed quotes and unsourced quotes (needs sourcing to determine which of the previous categories).
_____

The https://GoodReads.com site has many quotes for Verne which are partly or unattributed.


I don't think it is the mission of GoodReads to accurately and completely cite quotations.  There are, I believe, some false quotes there or at least some questionable ones.  With so little to go on, it might be tough to find out if it appears in any book like this sparse citation from GoodReads.com of the quote which I raised before.

“Anything one man can imagine, other men can make real.”
― Jules Verne, Around the World in Eighty Days

There is no French source, only the English version.  Pointing to Eighty Days does not give us a lot to work from since there are many translations of that work.  Art Evans has said that it is one of the most translated of Verne stories.  I imagine this is because it was short, early, and had a broad appeal.
_____

Perhaps there are members who would care to add their expertise and time to the WikiQuote project, including providing more complete citations.  Any Wikipedia/WikiQuote page has a discussion tab which can be a place for more free-form conversations in the community of a questionable aspect of the entry.  It pays to review those since you can see the names of the people involved.

It seems that notable people like Jules Verne should be known for the quotes they actually made and not ones invented for them in the distant or recent past.

James D. Keeline

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